Does Eli Manning Deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?

[Kleckineau]

6 hours ago, nyjunc said:

quiet, knowledgeable adult football fans are trying to have an intelligent discussion.  Please don't ruin it.

Gold

[nyjunc]

14 hours ago, prime21 said:

Oh and this defense that you speak of.....

in 2007 the Giants were ranked 17th in defense and 14th in offense.

In 2011 they were ranked 25th in defense and 9th in offense.  This is the worst ranking defense ever to win a Super Bowl.

Obviously Eli must have done something to get that 2011 defense to the playoffs so that they could step up their game and play well.  How about 4900 passing yards and 29 td's

Hmmmm

as for 2011, this was Eli's only season close to HOF caliber.  He played his best full season and carried it over into the playoffs.  His only season that could even be discussed as a great full season and he still had 16 INTs. w/ that said w/ the team at 7-6 late in the year Eli led his O to 3 points in non garbage time in a 23-10 loss to Washington that dropped them to 7-7 and looked like ended their season BUT the division was so weak they were still alive and beginning w/ the game against us their D would dominate the rest of the season en route to another SB title.

2011:

WC vs. Atl:

21-37

Atl O averaged 23.8 PPG, NYG held them to ZERO(-24)

Atl D averaged 19.6 PPG, NYG scored 24(+5)

zero TOs

div at GB:

GB O averaged 31.9, NYG D held them to 20(-12)(w/ a TD in garbage time)

GB D averaged 21.8, NYG O scored 37(+15)

NYG created 4 TOs

w/ game tied 10-10 in 2nd GB fumbled 1st and 10 at their 38, NYg started on GB 34 and kicked FG for 13-10 lead

NYG leads 20-10 3rd qtr, 1st and 10 at NYG 30 and GB fumbles

NYG leads 23-13 w/ 7 mins left, GB 2nd and 5 at Gb 34. fumbles returned to GB 4, giants score Td and game is over at 30-13

last To was garbage time

NFC Championship at SF:

SF O averaged 23.2 PPg, NYG held them to 17(-6)

SF D averaged 13.3 PPG, NYG O scored 17 in regulation(+4)

NYG created 2 TOs which basically won the game for them.

1st TO was NYG trailing 14-10 in the 4th and punting, SF PR muffed punt and NYG recovered at SF 29. scored TD to take 17-14 lead

In OT tied at 17 NYG punts again, SF PR muffs again this time giving NYG ball at SF 24, 3 runs later and 31 yd FG wins the game

Super Bowl vs. NE:

NE O averaged 30.3 PPG, NYG D held them to 17(-13)

NE D averaged 20.7 PPG, NYG O scored 19(-2)

NYG created 1 TO

early 4th qtr w/ NE leading 17-15 they pick off Brady 1st and 10 near midfield

NYG D also scored 2 points which was huge as it forced Brady to have to score a TD on short last possession rather than get into FG range for the win.

totals:

NYG D held opps -55 their PPG average

NYG O scored +22

NYG created 7 Tos(again almost 2 per game)

 

NYG O averaged 23.9 PPG(good but certainly not great #)

 

 

Totals for both SB runs:

NYG D held opps to -95 based on opposing Os PPG average

NYG O scored +39 based on opposing Ds PPG average

NYG created 14 TOs in 8 games(1.8 per game)

 

Please tell me how Eli was the key to those runs

 

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, Kleckineau said:

 

can you imagine if our D created a TO late in the 1st title game to set up GW FG? or how about STs getting 2 Tos to lead to our only 10 pts in 2nd half/OT to win the 2nd?  switch the QBs the results are the same.

In 2 neutral site SBs Eli led O's to 17 & 19 points, in a playoff game on the road at Foxboro in toughest place to win in the league Sanchez led NYJ to 28 points.

Thanks for playing though son, now please let the grownups discuss this stuff.

[Kleckineau]

5 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

can you imagine if our D created a TO late in the 1st title game to set up GW FG? or how about STs getting 2 Tos to lead to our only 10 pts in 2nd half/OT to win the 2nd?  switch the QBs the results are the same.

In 2 neutral site SBs Eli led O's to 17 & 19 points, in a playoff game on the road at Foxboro in toughest place to win in the league Sanchez led NYJ to 28 points.

Thanks for playing though son, now please let the grownups discuss this stuff.

More gold.

[nyjunc]

Eli Manning is a supposed Hall of famer b/c "he beat" Brady and NE twice in SBs.

Combined in those 2 Super Bowls he led his offenses to 36 points and his defenses held Brady and NE to 31 points.

Nick Foles in 1 SB against NE led his offense to 41 points while the Philly D gave up 33 so Foles led Philly to more in 1 games than Eli led his O's in 2 games and the Philly D gave up more in 1 game than the NYG D's did in 2 games. 

Please keep in mind the great Eli has NEVER led his team to a win in the playoffs in any round where the opponent has scored more than 20 points. 

 

 

[Kleckineau]

17 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Eli Manning is a supposed Hall of famer b/c "he beat" Brady and NE twice in SBs.

Combined in those 2 Super Bowls he led his offenses to 36 points and his defenses held Brady and NE to 31 points.

Nick Foles in 1 SB against NE led his offense to 41 points while the Philly D gave up 33 so Foles led Philly to more in 1 games than Eli led his O's in 2 games and the Philly D gave up more in 1 game than the NYG D's did in 2 games. 

Please keep in mind the great Eli has NEVER led his team to a win in the playoffs in any round where the opponent has scored more than 20 points. 

 

 

Really makes perfect sense now.

[TuscanyTile2]

(said by Francesa):

Eli Manning in the 4th Quarter of his 1st Superbowl vs Pats:
9-14 152 yds and 1TD

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

(said by Francesa):

Eli Manning in the 4th Quarter of his 1st Superbowl vs Pats:
9-14 152 yds and 1TD

awesome w/ a dropped INT and a ball sticking to a helmet.  you are going to compare that to what Foles did last night?

Eli's D made it possible for only scoring 17 pts and 19 pts to beat Tom Brady twice.  Brady led NE to 31 combined in the 2 games, if Eli plays last night NE wins going away.

[greenwichjetfan]

Eli is a hall of famer because the patriots are 0-3 when Eli shows up on TV in the 4th quarter of a patriots super bowl.

Also, if you don't believe his play will get him in, that 4th quarter commercial will. Absolutely hilarious.

[detectivekimble]

5 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

(said by Francesa):

Eli Manning in the 4th Quarter of his 1st Superbowl vs Pats:
9-14 152 yds and 1TD

True, but a football game is four quarters.

He'll definitely get in because of the two SBs and the ice in his veins.  If he only had one SB, I think he'd be on the outside looking in with Joe Flacco.

[detectivekimble]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

awesome w/ a dropped INT and a ball sticking to a helmet.  you are going to compare that to what Foles did last night?

Eli's D made it possible for only scoring 17 pts and 19 pts to beat Tom Brady twice.  Brady led NE to 31 combined in the 2 games, if Eli plays last night NE wins going away.

The defense was absolutely why the Giants won that first SB.  They held the Pats to something like half their season average.  But the QB always gets the credit.

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, detectivekimble said:

The defense was absolutely why the Giants won that first SB.  They held the Pats to something like half their season average.  But the QB always gets the credit.

Absolutely d in the 2nd SB too.  That doesn't mean Eli didn't do his job and make plays late b/c he did in both games BUT those games are never close if the Giants D doesn't shut down Brady. 

Foles threw 3 TDs and caught 1 last night, led his O to 41 pts and beat NE when Brady led NE to 33.  Eli in 2 SBs combined threw 3 TDs, led his O's to 36 pts combined and NYG allowed 31 combined yet Eli gets all the credit and may get into the HOF b/c of it. 

a guy like Jerry Kramer had to wait 40 years to get in, a 5 time 1st team all pro, a guy every football fan knows thanks to the Ice Bowl yet Eli and his zero AP teams(never even a 2nd team) and a mediocre career may get in soon after he's eligible.  It's a crime against football.

[Flushing Roots]

Not after that commercial does he.

[nyjunc]

found some interesting nuggets while looking up some info on Chad Pennington in another thread.

"awful" Chad Penning won a player of the week award a total of 6 time in his brief career, "future Hall of famer" Eli Manning won a player of the week award 4 times in his LONG career. Chad's 6 awards came in playoff seasons, 2 of Eli's 4 came in that awful 2015 season where he had inflated #s b/c of Odell and he was terrible that year.

oh and Chad finished 2nd in MVP voting one time.  Eli has never received a single league MVP vote but let's put Eli in the Hall of Fame!

[prime21]

let's put Eli in the Hall of Fame!

[rangerous]

On 9/19/2017 at 10:59 AM, Jack Straw said:

I don't have any doubt that Eli Manning will be a Hall of Famer when he hangs up his cleats. The purpose of this thread is to debate if he deserves the honor that will likely be bestowed upon him. Personally, I think the idea of pointing at a QB's Super Bowl rings as the reason for their deservedness is pretty simple-minded and arguably dumb. Using that logic, Trent Dilfer is one Super Bowl away from being a Hall of Famer - see my point?

But does a QB whose career QB Rating that is exactly the same as Bryan Hoyer's deserve to wear the yellow jacket? Does a guy with a lower QB rating than Jay Cutler and Mike Glennon deserve the honor? I'm of the belief that the Hall of Fame should be the best of the very best, and Eli Manning has never been a top 5 QB in any season he's ever played in.

Eli Manning's average season looks like this "59.8%, 3,744 yards, 25 TDs, 17 INTs"....is that HoF worthy? Eli has zero MVPs but does have four Pro Bowls. 

Thoughts?

imo he just doesn't make the players around him better.  he kinda got lucky in the superbowls.  the first where the wr makes the catch and the second where welker misses a pass from brady.  and it's not like the giaints were a great team heading in. he also didn't seem to show the fire as much as his brother did.

he's a very good qb for sure but to me just misses.

[nyjunc]

another thing: Chad led the league in passer rating in 2002 and twice led in comp %, the only major category Eli has ever led in is INts.

to recap:

In 81 starts Chad Pennington won offensive player of the week 6 times

In 214 starts Eli Manning won offensive player of the week 4 times

 

In basically 4 close to full seasons Chad Pennington led the NFL in passing 1 time and comp % twice

In basically 13 full seasons Eli has only led in one major category- INTs(3 times)

 

League MVP voting: Chad finished 2nd one year, Eli has never received a single league MVP vote

 

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, rangerous said:

imo he just doesn't make the players around him better.  he kinda got lucky in the superbowls.  the first where the wr makes the catch and the second where welker misses a pass from brady.  and it's not like the giaints were a great team heading in. he also didn't seem to show the fire as much as his brother did.

he's a very good qb for sure but to me just misses.

w/ SB winning talent around him in a weak division he led his teams to 10 and 9 wins in those years.

In the 2 SBs he led his O to 36 points total and the D allowed 31 pts total.  Just in this past SB Foles led his O to 41 pts and the D allowed 33.  Foles beat the Pats this year, the NYG D beat the Pats the other 2 SB losses.

he was a solid starter, some weeks could play great others look like a rookie but he was solid and dependable from a durability standpoint.  you knew he was playing every week but durability is his only real HOF quality.  the Hall is about the greatest players of all time, it would be a travesty to put such a mediocre QB among the greats b/c his D led 2 SB runs.

[Apache 51]

If Ben goes in Eli must...???

[Hitman Harris]

Yes. Before Tom the Cheater loser. LOL

[Bugg]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

another thing: Chad led the league in passer rating in 2002 and twice led in comp %, the only major category Eli has ever led in is INts.

to recap:

In 81 starts Chad Pennington won offensive player of the week 6 times

In 214 starts Eli Manning won offensive player of the week 4 times

 

In basically 4 close to full seasons Chad Pennington led the NFL in passing 1 time and comp % twice

In basically 13 full seasons Eli has only led in one major category- INTs(3 times)

 

League MVP voting: Chad finished 2nd one year, Eli has never received a single league MVP vote

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm  If you look at comparable careers, Eli Manning is in. Looked at Phil Simms(not in) in same light ,and the careers he's comparable 2 with 1.5 (2?) rings are not nearly as good. The game has become more pass-oriented, but still, doesn't really help Simms. 

[nyjunc]

17 hours ago, Bugg said:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm  If you look at comparable careers, Eli Manning is in. Looked at Phil Simms(not in) in same light ,and the careers he's comparable 2 with 1.5 (2?) rings are not nearly as good. The game has become more pass-oriented, but still, doesn't really help Simms. 

He's not comparable to most of those guys it says.

Mark Brunell: ok. I can buy that though Brunell led the NFL in pass yds, Eli has never led any major category other than INTs and Brunell isn't going to the HOF.

Jim Kelly: took over one of worst franchises in sports and helped turn them around reaching 4 SBs.  They didn't win but they got there 4 times. was a legit 5x Pro bowler(eli only legit 2x) and a 1st team all pro which Eli never was. also led in comp %, TDs and rating at least 1x.

Ben: we've been over this., Eli has more compiled #s, Ben has actually been great.  In his playoff loss last month he led O to 42 points, In all of Eli's PO losses combined he led his O's to 42 points.

McNair: Eli has had longer career, McNair was MUCH better at his peak. McNair won a LEAGUE MVP award and also led a season in rating. McNair is also probably not a HOFer

Bradshaw: TB won w/ great D just like Eli, RB had more talent but this was pre free agency era and there were a few great teams including Dallas who he outdueled Roger Staubach in a SB 35-31. The 35 pts in that 1 SB are 1 pt less than what Eli put up in his 2. TB was also an all pro and won a league MVP not to mention he led the league in TDs 2x.

Romo: Romo was better, he just never had a D carry him to a SB and Romo has no shot at the Hall. In far fewer seasons Romo earned 4 PBs, Eli 2. Romo led league in comp % and rating.

McNabb: somewhat similar though I'd still rate McNabb higher and he's not going to the Hall.  McNabb kept his team in contention nearly every year.  he never missed the POs 7 of 9 years.  he made 6 PBs, won POW awards(to 4 for Eli). he also never led in any major category so similar players.  In his lone SB app he led O to 21 pts and lost, 21 is more than Eli led his O's to in both of his SB wins.
 

Bledsoe: when you are considered similar to Drew Bledsoe that is not a good thing but Drew did make as many PBs as Eli(and earned 4 compared to 2) and Drew led in completions and yards.  Drew isn't going to the Hall, Eli shouldn't be either but I think this is probably the best comparison.  Just guys who threw the ball a lot putting up nice compiled #s.

Aikman: 6 selected Pbs compared to 2, Troy didn't throw nearly as much but he did lead league in comp % and he also made an all pro team.  Eli's #s dwarf Troy's b/c of the eras they played in. Troy was better and Troy led a dynasty not 2 fluke SB titles led by defense.  In 3 SBs Troy led his O's to 29.3 PPG, in 2 SBs Eli led his O's to 18 PPG.  In SB seasons Troy led his teams to 13, 12 and 12 wins.  Eli led NYG to 10 and 9 wins.

Carson palmer:  another pretty good comparison who has no shot at the Hall. Carson led in comp % and Tds

 

6 of the 10 career comparisons are players who will not be HOFers.  The other 4 he's not really close to.

 

Eli is a compiler and nothing more, the Hall is for all time greats.  at any point in Eli's career was he considered a top QB in this league?  he was a solid starter, a QB a team could win w/ if they had the right pieces around him.  Not a guy who will elevate a team. He's not a HOfer.

 

[nyjunc]

19 hours ago, Apache 51 said:

If Ben goes in Eli must...???

Ben is a lock but the difference is Ben is actually great. their compiled #s may seem similar b/c Eli has been durable and has attempted so many more passes but the 2 aren't close in reality.  I will copy and paste my comparison of these 2 from last month:

 

Ben has played far fewer games thanks to injuries and suspensions but in his 14 years:

Pass attempts:

ben top 10 in attempts 4 times

Eli 9 times

Pass TDs:

Ben: 7 times(despite only 4 times top 10 in attempts)

Eli: 10 times(despite being top 10 in attempts 9 times)

yards:

Ben: 6x top 10 and led the league once(again w/ only 4x in attempts)

Eli: 6x top 10(highest 4th and he was top 10 in attempts 9 times)

rating:

Ben 9x top 109highest 2nd, been top 5 6x)

Eli: ONE time top 10(7th)

Ben has made an all pro team(unofficial one), Eli has not

Ben has made 3 Super Bowls, Eli 2(both won 2)

In SBs Ben has led his Os to 22 PPG, Eli 18 PPG

Ben has made playoffs 10 times, Eli 6

Ben has won playoff games in 6 different postseasons(60% of his postseasons), Eli 2(33% of his postseasons)

In playoff losses Ben has led his O's to 24.3 PPG in playoff losses, Eli has led his O's to 10.5 PPG(In Ben's loss the other day he eld his O to 42 points, those 42 points equal the entire amount Eli has led his O's to in 4 playoff losses)

In playoff games where their D's have allowed more than 20 points Ben has won 3 times, Eli NEVER

Ben worst streak of not making playoffs was 2 years, Eli has missed 7 of the last 9 years(which included 4 straight years)

records in SB seasons: Ben 30-10(75%), Eli 19-13(59%). Ben missed 8 games in 2 of their SB seasons or that # would be much higher

ben has played in the toughest division in football the majority of his career, Eli in one of the weakest.

[Bugg]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

He's not comparable to most of those guys it says.

Mark Brunell: ok. I can buy that though Brunell led the NFL in pass yds, Eli has never led any major category other than INTs and Brunell isn't going to the HOF.

Jim Kelly: took over one of worst franchises in sports and helped turn them around reaching 4 SBs.  They didn't win but they got there 4 times. was a legit 5x Pro bowler(eli only legit 2x) and a 1st team all pro which Eli never was. also led in comp %, TDs and rating at least 1x.

Ben: we've been over this., Eli has more compiled #s, Ben has actually been great.  In his playoff loss last month he led O to 42 points, In all of Eli's PO losses combined he led his O's to 42 points.

McNair: Eli has had longer career, McNair was MUCH better at his peak. McNair won a LEAGUE MVP award and also led a season in rating. McNair is also probably not a HOFer

Bradshaw: TB won w/ great D just like Eli, RB had more talent but this was pre free agency era and there were a few great teams including Dallas who he outdueled Roger Staubach in a SB 35-31. The 35 pts in that 1 SB are 1 pt less than what Eli put up in his 2. TB was also an all pro and won a league MVP not to mention he led the league in TDs 2x.

Romo: Romo was better, he just never had a D carry him to a SB and Romo has no shot at the Hall. In far fewer seasons Romo earned 4 PBs, Eli 2. Romo led league in comp % and rating.

McNabb: somewhat similar though I'd still rate McNabb higher and he's not going to the Hall.  McNabb kept his team in contention nearly every year.  he never missed the POs 7 of 9 years.  he made 6 PBs, won POW awards(to 4 for Eli). he also never led in any major category so similar players.  In his lone SB app he led O to 21 pts and lost, 21 is more than Eli led his O's to in both of his SB wins.
 

Bledsoe: when you are considered similar to Drew Bledsoe that is not a good thing but Drew did make as many PBs as Eli(and earned 4 compared to 2) and Drew led in completions and yards.  Drew isn't going to the Hall, Eli shouldn't be either but I think this is probably the best comparison.  Just guys who threw the ball a lot putting up nice compiled #s.

Aikman: 6 selected Pbs compared to 2, Troy didn't throw nearly as much but he did lead league in comp % and he also made an all pro team.  Eli's #s dwarf Troy's b/c of the eras they played in. Troy was better and Troy led a dynasty not 2 fluke SB titles led by defense.  In 3 SBs Troy led his O's to 29.3 PPG, in 2 SBs Eli led his O's to 18 PPG.  In SB seasons Troy led his teams to 13, 12 and 12 wins.  Eli led NYG to 10 and 9 wins.

Carson palmer:  another pretty good comparison who has no shot at the Hall. Carson led in comp % and Tds

 

6 of the 10 career comparisons are players who will not be HOFers.  The other 4 he's not really close to.

 

Eli is a compiler and nothing more, the Hall is for all time greats.  at any point in Eli's career was he considered a top QB in this league?  he was a solid starter, a QB a team could win w/ if they had the right pieces around him.  Not a guy who will elevate a team. He's not a HOfer.

 

Argued here many times Curtis Martin is a classic compiler. But he's in, so what do I know. 

[nyjunc]

2 hours ago, Bugg said:

Argued here many times Curtis Martin is a classic compiler. But he's in, so what do I know. 

but once again Curtis was a multiple time all pro meaning he was one of the top 2 RBs in the league in multiple years.  He was always near the top in major categories and was always considered one of the top RBs in the league.  There's no doubt Curtis was one of the best of his generation.  Eli has NEVER made a single all pro team(not even an unofficial one), only been selected to 2 pro bowls, never led in any major category other than INTs, rarely was near the top in any category and was never considered one of the best QBs in the league at any point in his career.

It's not an insult to say Eli was a good, solid starting QB.  why must we elevate him to all time great just b/c his D led him to 2 SBs and he won 2 SB MVPs he didn't deserve.

again, compare his 2 SBs to Foles.

Foles had as many pass TDs in 1 game as Eli in 2, Foles threw 3 TDs and caught one. He led his O to 41 points, Eli led his Os to 36 points COMBINED.  Philly D allowed 33 points and gave up 505 pass yards. In 2 games against NYG D Brady led his O's to 31 total points and he had 542 pass yards combined.

Foles deserved SB MVP, Eli did not.

[nyjunc]

Just another little comparison.  First 3 full seasons:

Eli Manning(2005-2007): 892-1608, 55%, 10342 yds, 71 TDs, 55 INTs, 75.5 rating

Blake Bortles(2015-2017): 1038-1754, 59%, 12020 yds, 79 TDs, 47 INTs, 83.8 rating

Kirk Cousins(2015-2017): 1132-1689, 67%, 13176 yds, 81 TDs, 36 INTs, 97.5 rating

 

Here are Eli's 3 best seasons compared to the 1st 3 seasons of Cousins:

2008, 2011, 2015(even though he sucked this was his best stat year)

1035-1686, 61%, 12603 yds, 85 TDs, 40 INTs, 91.3 rating

 

Eli's 3 best seasons still aren't as good as the first 3 seasons from Cousins and really not much better than Bortles first 3 full seasons as a starter but somehow this man is an obvious hall of famer.