Does Eli Manning Deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?

[Sperm Edwards]

3 minutes ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

My bad. I was going to say if Eli gets in, I think it will be because of his name and popularity. The writers and HOF would love to have 2 brothers in the Hall together.

I was drawing a parallel for someone else who had a great career but pretty much no one tasked with filling the blanks, "If I could have my pick of any among 3 RBs for a SB run I'd choose ______ from his _____ season," would choose our most productive one, unless they're Jets fans. Just like no one would choose Eli unless they're Giants fans.

They're like the NFL's version of Don Sutton.

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

All that needs to be said? Lol that's the mantra of people who just want those in disagreement to stop talking because it's blasphemy to disagree with you. Who cares that he made some pro bowls in the fantasy football era; those are popularity contests mostly and you know it. Plus 2-3 times his election to those pro bowl teams was decidedly undeserved, and the allegedly-deserved ones were a painfully small percentage of his career (his Jets career in particular). Or is this where you tell me that when he had 3.5 ypc in 1998 and 3.6 ypc in 1996, with an above-average OL and a well above-average passing game - not to mention essentially a 6th OLman in Kyle Brady - that this was one of the best performers of the year? Lol.

If you really think most of the players/coaches watch intricate film on every player in the league, and don't rely upon stats and group think (especially when a player is a favorite of larger-than-life figures like Parcells), you're really kidding yourself. They don't, and he rode on the backs of his teammates' performances for years. 

I can root for a player because he's on the Jets and still be painfully aware of his shortcomings. It's no shock that a RB who gets 20 carries per game with the above-average supporting casts around him, would put up gobs of yards despite only having a very average/pedestrian ypc.

False idol. But hey, you're smitten so it's like saying bad things about a girl you like. 

Not Pro Bowls but ALL PRO selections. do you know the difference? all pro is not a popularity contest, it's for the best players in the league.  he made 2 1st teams and 2 2nd teams, that's 2 more 1st teams than Eli and 2 more 2nd teams than Eli. 

we get it, you hate Curtis and can't be fair.  There is no comparison btw him and Eli and Curtis was one of the top Rbs of his era, Eli is not one of the top QBs of his era but please keep bashing him w/ nonsense and making stuff up.

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

I do agree. But are you saying manning didn’t get elected to a pro bowl because he “ wasn’t “popular ?  The name Manning is quite popular in football because of Archie and his much better brother. Eli as far as I know is also well liked and respected. The fans and writers love rooting for the not so good little brother in whatever sport lol. I don’t think Eli has ever been a top 5 qb. He barely was top 10 many years. So to me that is why he never was elected to a pro ball. They don’t carry many qbs.

That's another thing, the PB is sort of a popularity contest.  once you have the reputation of a PB player you can make it on reputation.  Eli manning only was selected to the Pro Bowl TWICE in his career(made 2 more as injury replacement).  Zero all pro teams, only 2 PB teams but yeah he's a HOFer

[bla bla bla]

5 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Uh....No.  The Tyree play was great and lucky but it wasn't what SB III was.  No one on the NFL side took the AFL seriously, the merger was already in place but this legitimized it and was the starting point of football becoming America's favorite sport.  Namath was a legit superstar QB at the time, he made people watch football.  No one gives a crap about watching Eli.  Namath was actually great but his career was ruined by injuries, Eli has never been great and there is absolutely no comparison of the significance of SB III w/ SB XLII. Namath belongs in for what he meant to the game, Eli means nothing to this game.  he did not help it grow the way Namath did.  Eli deserves a nice spot in the giants ring of honor/hall of fame.  he doesn't deserve to be in the Pro Football Hall of fame unless he has a ticket to see his brother's bust.

You seem to mistake what I'm saying, The Tyree play is one of the most famous events in football history. I'm not claiming it is more important than what Namath did but it is certainly more famous than the guarantee. I'm sure there is no way to poll this so the argument is kinda silly but given the amount of media presence now along with the growth of the game you can't tell me that more people don't know about the Tyree catch than the Namath guarantee. The viewing size alone is far higher now than it was in 1969.

Like it or not I think Eli is really the only QB to lead a team against the Patriots and win not once but twice on the biggest stage. It is not called the Hall of Stats, (as evidence of Namath's numbers) it's the Hall of Fame.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Not Pro Bowls but ALL PRO selections. do you know the difference? all pro is not a popularity contest, it's for the best players in the league.  he made 2 1st teams and 2 2nd teams, that's 2 more 1st teams than Eli and 2 more 2nd teams than Eli. 

we get it, you hate Curtis and can't be fair.  There is no comparison btw him and Eli and Curtis was one of the top Rbs of his era, Eli is not one of the top QBs of his era but please keep bashing him w/ nonsense and making stuff up.

Yes they both are to a degree, though pro bowl is more so. There's always popularity or politics or rewarding a favorite involved whenever it's subjective voting and any fool knows stats play into it. But for a RB more than any other position, stats are largely dependent upon the supporting cast and situation. That is, unless you're a truly special runner, which he was not. Which is why in his biggest game as a Jet, he had one of the worst games imaginable, instead of rising above the sudden lack of giant holes to run through.

And then the predictable line comes out: anyone who recognizes Martin for what he was, instead of worshiping him like an idol, hates him. 

There is absolutely a good comparison between the two. Martin was never a top 3 RB ever - never, ever, ever - and probably was never a top 5 RB in any given year. 

A person can have a great career without ever being one of the most dangerous/deadly players to come up against in any year of his career. In this regard, he's a lot like other career compilers I mentioned and his relevance here: Eli Manning (or someone like Sutton in baseball).

[nyjunc]

13 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

You seem to mistake what I'm saying, The Tyree play is one of the most famous events in football history. I'm not claiming it is more important than what Namath did but it is certainly more famous than the guarantee. I'm sure there is no way to poll this so the argument is kinda silly but given the amount of media presence now along with the growth of the game you can't tell me that more people don't know about the Tyree catch than the Namath guarantee. The viewing size alone is far higher now than it was in 1969.

Like it or not I think Eli is really the only QB to lead a team against the Patriots and win not once but twice on the biggest stage. It is not called the Hall of Stats, (as evidence of Namath's numbers) it's the Hall of Fame.

there are a million famous plays in NFL history, you don't make the HOf b/c of a famous play especially one as fluky as a ball sticking to a helmet.

The viewing size is what it is today thanks to Joe and the Jets, Joe was the first real superstar player in this league.  No one watches a game for Eli manning, people used to watch for Joe and his guarantee brought eyeballs to the TV screens and was the beginning of making the SB the event it is today.

Eli "beat" the Patriots by leading his offense to 17 & 19 points.  He won those games b/c his defense was incredible.  NE averaged 37 PPg in 2007 and around 32 in 2011 yet they scored 14 & 17 pts in those games. 

It's not the Hall of fame to enshrine the most famous players, the hall of fame is for the greatest players of all time.  The average fan wouldn't recognize 60% of the people enshrined in the Hall.  The Hall is for the best of the best, Eli is clearly not one of those players.

11 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yes they both are to a degree, though pro bowl is more so. There's always popularity or politics or rewarding a favorite involved whenever it's subjective voting and any fool knows stats play into it. But for a RB more than any other position, stats are largely dependent upon the supporting cast and situation. That is, unless you're a truly special runner, which he was not. Which is why in his biggest game as a Jet, he had one of the worst games imaginable, instead of rising above the sudden lack of giant holes to run through.

And then the predictable line comes out: anyone who recognizes Martin for what he was, instead of worshiping him like an idol, hates him. 

There is absolutely a good comparison between the two. Martin was never a top 3 RB ever - never, ever, ever - and probably was never a top 5 RB in any given year. 

A person can have a great career without ever being one of the most dangerous/deadly players to come up against in any year of his career. In this regard, he's a lot like other career compilers I mentioned and his relevance here: Eli Manning (or someone like Sutton in baseball).

He was never a top 3 RB and probably never top 5 but amazingly he had 2 1st team all pros and 2 2nd team all pros.  he was consistently top 3-5, that is what a hall of famer is.  consistently great.  Was he TD at his height? of course not, was he Barry sanders? no.  But he is a deserving HOfer as one of the all time great RBs.  Eli Manning has never been a top QB in this league and has mostly compiled #s in a pass happy era in meaningless games.

Don Sutton and Eli are kind of similar except Don actually led the league in some categories that weren't negative.  Don doesn't belong but he belongs more than Eli does. Curtis was an actual great player on a consistent basis.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

He was never a top 3 RB and probably never top 5 but amazingly he had 2 1st team all pros and 2 2nd team all pros.  he was consistently top 3-5, that is what a hall of famer is.  consistently great.  Was he TD at his height? of course not, was he Barry sanders? no.  But he is a deserving HOfer as one of the all time great RBs.  Eli Manning has never been a top QB in this league and has mostly compiled #s in a pass happy era in meaningless games.

Don Sutton and Eli are kind of similar except Don actually led the league in some categories that weren't negative.  Don doesn't belong but he belongs more than Eli does. Curtis was an actual great player on a consistent basis.

You are probably  the only person who believes in every year he was top 3 at his position in ability, rather than in production that is primarily driven by his surrounding cast. He was an absolute compiler. The very point is he was consistently pretty good, and sometimes very good, but literally nobody thinks he was consistentliy great outside of Jetsland. 

[bla bla bla]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

there are a million famous plays in NFL history, you don't make the HOf b/c of a famous play especially one as fluky as a ball sticking to a helmet.

The viewing size is what it is today thanks to Joe and the Jets, Joe was the first real superstar player in this league.  No one watches a game for Eli manning, people used to watch for Joe and his guarantee brought eyeballs to the TV screens and was the beginning of making the SB the event it is today.

Eli "beat" the Patriots by leading his offense to 17 & 19 points.  He won those games b/c his defense was incredible.  NE averaged 37 PPg in 2007 and around 32 in 2011 yet they scored 14 & 17 pts in those games. 

It's not the Hall of fame to enshrine the most famous players, the hall of fame is for the greatest players of all time.  The average fan wouldn't recognize 60% of the people enshrined in the Hall.  The Hall is for the best of the best, Eli is clearly not one of those players.

Again you think I am disagreeing with you. I don't believe Eli deserves to be in the HoF but if you don't think that SB catch is not one of the most famous plays in all of sports idk what to tell you. That wouldn't be the sole reason he gets in, his teams beat the unbeatable twice, his streak is nothing short of great, and he is not even the best QB in his family. He will get in regardless of stats or putting the team on his back because he is famous for everything I just mentioned just like Namath got in for his guarantee and not his stats.

 

I'm not in any way, shape, or form saying that Eli meant more to the game than Namath.

[prime21]

The people that actually have a say in the voting will say yes.

[nyjunc]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You are probably  the only person who believes in every year he was top 3 at his position in ability, rather than in production that is primarily driven by his surrounding cast. He was an absolute compiler. The very point is he was consistently pretty good, and sometimes very good, but literally nobody thinks he was consistentliy great outside of Jetsland. 

The majority of his career he was top 3-5. let's look:

1995: 3rd rushing, 3rd TDs. I would say he was top 3

1996: 9th rush, 2nd Tds. Top 5

1997: 8th rush yds, out of top 10 TDs.  Not top 5

1998: 8th yds and TDs.  Hearts was 3rd yds, not top 10 TDs. Sanders 4th, not top 10 TDs. Faulk 6th, not top 10 TDs. George 7th, not top 10 TDs.  Overall Curtis top 5 even though his YPC was down, he opened up that offense and remember he was playing hurt all year.

1999: 2nd yds, not top 10 in TDs.  Top 5

2000: Not top 10 rush yds, 10th rush TDs.  Remember, we threw a lot and his rush attempts were down and recs way up to compensate for the Keyshawn trade but he wasn't top 5.

2001: 2nd rush yds, 4th rush TDs.  top 3

2002: He was hurt this year, lowest yardage total of career outside of last season where he didn't play a lot. Not top 5

2003: not top 5

2004: led in rushing, 8th in TDs(4 way tie for4th at 13, Curtis had 12). top 3

2005: hurt, last year of career

 

being conservative he as top 3-6 60% of his career(not including the injury ravaged 2005).  That's why he's in the HOF.  The only year Eli was probably around #5 was 2011.

 

1 hour ago, bla bla bla said:

Again you think I am disagreeing with you. I don't believe Eli deserves to be in the HoF but if you don't think that SB catch is not one of the most famous plays in all of sports idk what to tell you. That wouldn't be the sole reason he gets in, his teams beat the unbeatable twice, his streak is nothing short of great, and he is not even the best QB in his family. He will get in regardless of stats or putting the team on his back because he is famous for everything I just mentioned just like Namath got in for his guarantee and not his stats.

 

I'm not in any way, shape, or form saying that Eli meant more to the game than Namath.

It's a famous play, famous plays happen all the time. It doesn't mean they go to the Hall based on one play.

His streak is the only HOF worthy accomplishment of his career. he stayed healthy but he was mediocre while playing in the majority of those games.

He is nothing like Namath.  again, Namath meant so much to the growth of the popularity of the sport- Eli meant nothing.  Joe's career was hurt by injuries but when realtively healthy he was actually a great player as brief as that was.  He was a multiple time all pro, he was AFL player of the year 2x, he led in TD passes, in yards.  Eli has NEVER made a single all pro team, never led in any major category other than INTs which he led 3 times. 

1 hour ago, prime21 said:

The people that actually have a say in the voting will say yes.

I am worried they will make that mistake when the reality is he doesn't even belong in the discussion but hopefully these people that vote are knowledgeable and can really dig deep into his mediocre career and not vote him in.  It will be the biggest disgrace to the Hall and a disgrace to all real HOFers that a man can get in w/ doing so little.

[prime21]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

The majority of his career he was top 3-5. let's look:

1995: 3rd rushing, 3rd TDs. I would say he was top 3

1996: 9th rush, 2nd Tds. Top 5

1997: 8th rush yds, out of top 10 TDs.  Not top 5

1998: 8th yds and TDs.  Hearts was 3rd yds, not top 10 TDs. Sanders 4th, not top 10 TDs. Faulk 6th, not top 10 TDs. George 7th, not top 10 TDs.  Overall Curtis top 5 even though his YPC was down, he opened up that offense and remember he was playing hurt all year.

1999: 2nd yds, not top 10 in TDs.  Top 5

2000: Not top 10 rush yds, 10th rush TDs.  Remember, we threw a lot and his rush attempts were down and recs way up to compensate for the Keyshawn trade but he wasn't top 5.

2001: 2nd rush yds, 4th rush TDs.  top 3

2002: He was hurt this year, lowest yardage total of career outside of last season where he didn't play a lot. Not top 5

2003: not top 5

2004: led in rushing, 8th in TDs(4 way tie for4th at 13, Curtis had 12). top 3

2005: hurt, last year of career

 

being conservative he as top 3-6 60% of his career(not including the injury ravaged 2005).  That's why he's in the HOF.  The only year Eli was probably around #5 was 2011.

 

It's a famous play, famous plays happen all the time. It doesn't mean they go to the Hall based on one play.

His streak is the only HOF worthy accomplishment of his career. he stayed healthy but he was mediocre while playing in the majority of those games.

He is nothing like Namath.  again, Namath meant so much to the growth of the popularity of the sport- Eli meant nothing.  Joe's career was hurt by injuries but when realtively healthy he was actually a great player as brief as that was.  He was a multiple time all pro, he was AFL player of the year 2x, he led in TD passes, in yards.  Eli has NEVER made a single all pro team, never led in any major category other than INTs which he led 3 times. 

I am worried they will make that mistake when the reality is he doesn't even belong in the discussion but hopefully these people that vote are knowledgeable and can really dig deep into his mediocre career and not vote him in.  It will be the biggest disgrace to the Hall and a disgrace to all real HOFers that a man can get in w/ doing so little.

I would vote him in and I definitely can understand the argument against him but biggest disgrace to the Hall?  That's a bit much.

For all he hasn't done, the yards passing is the big key since everyone ahead of him is in the HOF and the ones right under him as well.  Mix in two rings with MVP trophies, all of it will outshine the negatives.  

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, prime21 said:

I would vote him in and I definitely can understand the argument against him but biggest disgrace to the Hall?  That's a bit much.

For all he hasn't done, the yards passing is the big key since everyone ahead of him is in the HOF and the ones right under him as well.  Mix in two rings with MVP trophies, all of it will outshine the negatives.  

his yards are high b/c his attempts are high.  he has played entire career in pass happy era where rules favor pass offenses.  His #s dwarf greats of the past but that doesn't make him anywhere near as good.  You can't compare #s from today to players of old.  You compare them to their era.

against his peers Eli has rarely finished top5 in any categories:

he's played 14 seasons

top 5:

pass yards: 3 times(highest finish was 4th in 2011 which was really his only Hall worthy season)

pass TDs: 4 times(highest was 2nd in 2015 and he was AWFUL in 2015, he cost his team so many games w/ late bonehead mistakes)

passer rating: ZERO times

INTs: 5x(led THREE times)

3 or 4 times top 5 and oh by the way in attempts he was top 5 four times.  he has mostly put up garbage time #s playing for teams out of contention.  He's missed the playoffs 7 of 9 years, the 2 years he went to the SB he led his SB talent to 10 and 9 wins, he's never made a single all pro team(not even one of the unofficial ones), he's only earned 2 pro bowl selections. he's never won a playoff game where his D allowed more than 20 points, he's only won playoff games in 2 postseasons, he's never led an O to more than 20 in a playoff loss.  Basically if the D isn't great his team isn't winning, that's a HOFer?

Compare him w/ someone like Ben, came in together and played in same era. Ben has played far fewer games thanks to injuries and suspensions but in his 14 years:

Pass attempts:

ben top 10 in attempts 4 times

Eli 9 times

Pass TDs:

Ben: 7 times(despite only 4 times top 10 in attempts)

Eli: 10 times(despite being top 10 in attempts 9 times)

yards:

Ben: 6x top 10 and led the league once(again w/ only 4x in attempts)

Eli: 6x top 10(highest 4th and he was top 10 in attempts 9 times)

rating:

Ben 9x top 109highest 2nd, been top 5 6x)

Eli: ONE time top 10(7th)

Ben has made an all pro team(unofficial one), Eli has not

Ben has made 3 Super Bowls, Eli 2(both won 2)

In SBs Ben has led his Os to 22 PPG, Eli 18 PPG

Ben has made p[layoffs 10 times, Eli 6

Ben has won playoff games in 6 different postseasons(60% of his postseasons), Eli 2(33% of his postseasons)

In playoff losses Ben has led his O's to 24.3 PPG in playoff losses, Eli has led his O's to 10.5 PPG(In Ben's loss the other day he eld his O to 42 points, those 42 points equal the entire amount Eli has led his O's to in 4 playoff losses)

In playoff games where their D's have allowed more than 20 points Ben has won 3 times, Eli NEVER

Ben worst streak of not making playoffs was 2 years, Eli has missed 7 of the last 9 years(which included 4 straight years)

records in SB seasons: Ben 30-10(75%), Eli 19-13(59%). Ben missed 8 games in 2 of their SB seasons or that # would be much higher

ben has played in the toughest division in football the majority of his career, Eli in one of the weakest.

 

How anyone can think Eli belongs is just beyond me, it makes no sense.  it's all people looking at 2 SB MVPs(he didn't deserve either) and meaningless, compiled #s.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, nyjunc said:

The majority of his career he was top 3-5. let's look:

1995: 3rd rushing, 3rd TDs. I would say he was top 3

1996: 9th rush, 2nd Tds. Top 5

1997: 8th rush yds, out of top 10 TDs.  Not top 5

1998: 8th yds and TDs.  Hearts was 3rd yds, not top 10 TDs. Sanders 4th, not top 10 TDs. Faulk 6th, not top 10 TDs. George 7th, not top 10 TDs.  Overall Curtis top 5 even though his YPC was down, he opened up that offense and remember he was playing hurt all year.

1999: 2nd yds, not top 10 in TDs.  Top 5

2000: Not top 10 rush yds, 10th rush TDs.  Remember, we threw a lot and his rush attempts were down and recs way up to compensate for the Keyshawn trade but he wasn't top 5.

2001: 2nd rush yds, 4th rush TDs.  top 3

2002: He was hurt this year, lowest yardage total of career outside of last season where he didn't play a lot. Not top 5

2003: not top 5

2004: led in rushing, 8th in TDs(4 way tie for4th at 13, Curtis had 12). top 3

2005: hurt, last year of career

Lol you keep repeating yourself as though you think totals, due to enormous numbers of attempts totals rather than being special on those attempts, make someone one of the 3 most dangerous RBs in the game. You're making my point for me, that his production wasn't due to his elusiveness and tackle-breakingness; rather, it was volume opportunity on a team with a great situation for a RB who could stay healthy as well as Martin.

We can agree to disagree if you like, because repeating totals is unconvincing to someone who watched every game and only rarely saw him do something one would consider special with the ball in hand. The very point with regards to Eli is he had a lot of attempts for a long time, and that even though he wasn't amazing year after year, in the end he had a great and very successful career. Left to decide again, the Giants would still do what they did to acquire him from the Chargers on draft day 2004. 

He was top 4 in carries. That led to top 5 in yards. It's a great career accomplishment, like Eli's eventual 60K passing yards, but his numbers were a function of situation rather than being better than all but maybe 2 other guys every season.

[UntouchableCrew]

I don't get the Martin/Eli comparison. While it's true that Martin was only "very good" and not "great" for the majority of his career and his HoF resume is largely based on longevity and consistency (same will apply to Frank Gore) Eli hasn't even been "very good." He's been average at best.

There's just no real argument for Eli to be in the Hall of Fame unless you disproportionately value being part of two championship teams -- teams where defense ruled the day. The guy has never won a playoff game where the other team scored more than 20 points. In both Super Bowl Games Eli's offense scored exactly the average the Pats defense was giving up -- while the Pats offense scored substantially below their average. He is a career mediocre QB who throws tons of picks who was largely along for the ride on some decent teams -- teams he probably held back from having a better record.

[Kleckineau]

Just being the winning QB for 2 NEP SB losses gets my vote.

Esp 18-1

Leave the guy alone.

[Jetsplayer21]

8 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I don't get the Martin/Eli comparison. While it's true that Martin was only "very good" and not "great" for the majority of his career and his HoF resume is largely based on longevity and consistency (same will apply to Frank Gore) Eli hasn't even been "very good." He's been average at best.

There's just no real argument for Eli to be in the Hall of Fame unless you disproportionately value being part of two championship teams -- teams where defense ruled the day. The guy has never won a playoff game where the other team scored more than 20 points. In both Super Bowl Games Eli's offense scored exactly the average the Pats defense was giving up -- while the Pats offense scored substantially below their average. He is a career mediocre QB who throws tons of picks who was largely along for the ride on some decent teams -- teams he probably held back from having a better record.

“Participation trophies “  are big these days ha. Eli only chance at getting in is because he was on a team that had one of best pass rushes of all time. Take away that D, and we aren’t even having this conversation.

[Sperm Edwards]

38 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I don't get the Martin/Eli comparison. While it's true that Martin was only "very good" and not "great" for the majority of his career and his HoF resume is largely based on longevity and consistency (same will apply to Frank Gore) Eli hasn't even been "very good." He's been average at best.

There's just no real argument for Eli to be in the Hall of Fame unless you disproportionately value being part of two championship teams -- teams where defense ruled the day. The guy has never won a playoff game where the other team scored more than 20 points. In both Super Bowl Games Eli's offense scored exactly the average the Pats defense was giving up -- while the Pats offense scored substantially below their average. He is a career mediocre QB who throws tons of picks who was largely along for the ride on some decent teams -- teams he probably held back from having a better record.

BINGO

The thing with Eli - and I agree with you he wasn't a special QB but had a long and very successful career - is his career isn't over. He probably has at least 2 more years left in him (maybe 3-4 for all we know). When it's done and he finishes with over 60,000 yards my guess is it'll hold a lot of weight with voters. Just like I don't think Martin was any slam dunk to get in if you removed his own last couple seasons and he finished with under 12K rushing yards and just over 80 TDs instead of more than 14K yards and 100 TDs. Plus being a Manning, and QB for the winner so often getting the SB MVP award almost by default, won't hurt his chances either.

The volume helps a lot in this voting, rightly or wrongly. There were some dominant QBs/RBs/WRs over the years who didn't sustain their production, and most never get in. But then you can have someone like Art Monk who comes to no one's mind when you think of the best WRs ever, yet he's in the HOF. Torry Holt was more dominant, yet he's waiting for his induction year after year, like TD had to wait 16 years (whom some think is still unworthy), or like Klecko for the Jets who's still waiting.

[nyjunc]

14 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Lol you keep repeating yourself as though you think totals, due to enormous numbers of attempts totals rather than being special on those attempts, make someone one of the 3 most dangerous RBs in the game. You're making my point for me, that his production wasn't due to his elusiveness and tackle-breakingness; rather, it was volume opportunity on a team with a great situation for a RB who could stay healthy as well as Martin.

We can agree to disagree if you like, because repeating totals is unconvincing to someone who watched every game and only rarely saw him do something one would consider special with the ball in hand. The very point with regards to Eli is he had a lot of attempts for a long time, and that even though he wasn't amazing year after year, in the end he had a great and very successful career. Left to decide again, the Giants would still do what they did to acquire him from the Chargers on draft day 2004. 

He was top 4 in carries. That led to top 5 in yards. It's a great career accomplishment, like Eli's eventual 60K passing yards, but his numbers were a function of situation rather than being better than all but maybe 2 other guys every season.

Eli's #s were a function of the times and playing on mostly teams out of contention.  Curtis was on good teams most of his career gaining meaningful yards to help his teams win. Curtis was consistently really good/great, Eli was anything but consistent, one week he could look like an actual HOFer, the next week he looks like a rookie learning the game.li was consistently good/great I'd have no problem w/ him being considered a HOfer, he's nothing like Curtis Martin.

Curtis average 4.0 yards per carry.  RBs in the Hall w/ similar YPC:

Franco Harris 4.1

John Riggins 3.9

Marcus Allen 4.1

Floyd Little 3.9

Jerome Bettis 3.9

 

 

14 hours ago, Kleckineau said:

Just being the winning QB for 2 NEP SB losses gets my vote.

Esp 18-1

Leave the guy alone.

It's confirmed, you are clearly not a Jet fan.  Please go to the giant boards where you can praise Eli and bash Jet greats.

[Kleckineau]

40 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Eli's #s were a function of the times and playing on mostly teams out of contention.  Curtis was on good teams most of his career gaining meaningful yards to help his teams win. Curtis was consistently really good/great, Eli was anything but consistent, one week he could look like an actual HOFer, the next week he looks like a rookie learning the game.li was consistently good/great I'd have no problem w/ him being considered a HOfer, he's nothing like Curtis Martin.

Curtis average 4.0 yards per carry.  RBs in the Hall w/ similar YPC:

Franco Harris 4.1

John Riggins 3.9

Marcus Allen 4.1

Floyd Little 3.9

Jerome Bettis 3.9

 

 

It's confirmed, you are clearly not a Jet fan.  Please go to the giant boards where you can praise Eli and bash Jet greats.

Whats your name on the Giants site? NYGUNC?

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Eli's #s were a function of the times and playing on mostly teams out of contention.  Curtis was on good teams most of his career gaining meaningful yards to help his teams win. Curtis was consistently really good/great, Eli was anything but consistent, one week he could look like an actual HOFer, the next week he looks like a rookie learning the game.li was consistently good/great I'd have no problem w/ him being considered a HOfer, he's nothing like Curtis Martin.

Curtis average 4.0 yards per carry.  RBs in the Hall w/ similar YPC:

Franco Harris 4.1

John Riggins 3.9

Marcus Allen 4.1

Floyd Little 3.9

Jerome Bettis 3.9

 

 

It's confirmed, you are clearly not a Jet fan.  Please go to the giant boards where you can praise Eli and bash Jet greats.

Meaningful yards like in the glorious Steelers game you called attention to? 6 yards on 2nd & 18 (punted 2 downs later); 13 yards on 3rd & 24 (punted on the next play); 10 yards on 1st & 20 (punted on the ensuing 4th down). None of those were "meaningful" for the team, since we didn't even get a 1st down (let alone a TD or even a FG). Those 3 carries accounted for 29 of his 77 yards. The team would have been no worse off without them; ergo they were not meaningful for the team, but they were meaningful for Martin, with yesmen like yourself touting this glorious instance of 4.1 ypc. Removing these 3 non-meaningful carries alone, when he didn't have wide paths cleared for him of course, he was 3.0 ypc on the day (and that's pretty much how the game went).

Meaningful yards, lol. The guy was the king of taking advantage of Paul Hackett's draw plays in passing situations, behind solid OLs and QBs/WRs who were actual passing threats (not to mention all 7 of his productive Jets years with us starting giant TEs who just stayed in to block for Martin far more than they were used in the passing game).

But to you I'm not a Jets fan if I wanted them to win instead of lose with the group they had. Because only real Jets fans praise key players who were unsuccessful in their losses. I'm unsurprised by your reaction here, because it's far easier to attack the person when your arguments are unpersuasive. 

As far as that latter group, Bettis arguably shouldn't be in either, and probably wouldn't have gotten in if the refs didn't giftwrap that superbowl for the Steelers over Seattle. The rest you mentioned were chiefly from another era when 4.0 was a different benchmark because it was primarily a running league and . Allen was further given brownie points for his situation with Al Davis before free agency and for being productive into his late 30s.

But you knew all that as well when you made this post lol.

[Kleckineau]

5 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Eli's #s were a function of the times and playing on mostly teams out of contention.  Curtis was on good teams most of his career gaining meaningful yards to help his teams win. Curtis was consistently really good/great, Eli was anything but consistent, one week he could look like an actual HOFer, the next week he looks like a rookie learning the game.li was consistently good/great I'd have no problem w/ him being considered a HOfer, he's nothing like Curtis Martin.

Curtis average 4.0 yards per carry.  RBs in the Hall w/ similar YPC:

Franco Harris 4.1

John Riggins 3.9

Marcus Allen 4.1

Floyd Little 3.9

Jerome Bettis 3.9

 

 

It's confirmed, you are clearly not a Jet fan.  Please go to the giant boards where you can praise Eli and bash Jet greats.

If 4.0 is your holy grail benchmark for greatness Marv Hubbard averaged 4.8

He must be like a Jim Brown or something.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, Kleckineau said:

If 4.0 is your holy grail benchmark for greatness Marv Hubbard averaged 4.8

He must be like a Jim Brown or something.

 

You're obviously not a Jets fan lol.

[nyjunc]

3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Meaningful yards like in the glorious Steelers game you called attention to? 6 yards on 2nd & 18 (punted 2 downs later); 13 yards on 3rd & 24 (punted on the next play); 10 yards on 1st & 20 (punted on the ensuing 4th down). None of those were "meaningful" for the team, since we didn't even get a 1st down (let alone a TD or even a FG). Those 3 carries accounted for 29 of his 77 yards. The team would have been no worse off without them; ergo they were not meaningful for the team, but they were meaningful for Martin, with yesmen like yourself touting this glorious instance of 4.1 ypc. Removing these 3 non-meaningful carries alone, when he didn't have wide paths cleared for him of course, he was 3.0 ypc on the day (and that's pretty much how the game went).

Meaningful yards, lol. The guy was the king of taking advantage of Paul Hackett's draw plays in passing situations, behind solid OLs and QBs/WRs who were actual passing threats (not to mention all 7 of his productive Jets years with us starting giant TEs who just stayed in to block for Martin far more than they were used in the passing game).

But to you I'm not a Jets fan if I wanted them to win instead of lose with the group they had. Because only real Jets fans praise key players who were unsuccessful in their losses. I'm unsurprised by your reaction here, because it's far easier to attack the person when your arguments are unpersuasive. 

As far as that latter group, Bettis arguably shouldn't be in either, and probably wouldn't have gotten in if the refs didn't giftwrap that superbowl for the Steelers over Seattle. The rest you mentioned were chiefly from another era when 4.0 was a different benchmark because it was primarily a running league and . Allen was further given brownie points for his situation with Al Davis before free agency and for being productive into his late 30s.

But you knew all that as well when you made this post lol.

we went over that Pitt game, there was 1-2 meaningless carries.  the rest were not but you have your agenda.

What is odd is that no other RB ever runs the ball in 3rd and long and gains yardage, only Curtis!

where did I say you weren't a Jet fan? that comment was after I quoted kleckineau who obviously is not a Jet fan.

There are a bunch w/ 4.2 as well, they are all close and those players include guys like Thurman Thomas and Marshall faulk. 

You can keep making excuses but Curtis belongs and he made it on his first try. There are many undeserving players in the Hall, Curtis is not one of them.

Curtis was consistently one of the best RBs in the league the majority of his career, no he's not up at the top tier w/ guys like Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders. etc... but he is a worthy HOFer.  he didn't just show up every week, he produced which is something we can't say for Eli manning.

 

 

[Sperm Edwards]

2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

we went over that Pitt game, there was 1-2 meaningless carries.  the rest were not but you have your agenda.

What is odd is that no other RB ever runs the ball in 3rd and long and gains yardage, only Curtis!

where did I say you weren't a Jet fan? that comment was after I quoted kleckineau who obviously is not a Jet fan.

There are a bunch w/ 4.2 as well, they are all close and those players include guys like Thurman Thomas and Marshall faulk. 

You can keep making excuses but Curtis belongs and he made it on his first try. There are many undeserving players in the Hall, Curtis is not one of them.

Curtis was consistently one of the best RBs in the league the majority of his career, no he's not up at the top tier w/ guys like Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders. etc... but he is a worthy HOFer.  he didn't just show up every week, he produced which is something we can't say for Eli manning.

 

 

The rest that were not meaningless he got 3.0 ypc. So thanks for touting the 4.1 figure you knew perfectly well was misleading. 

Curtis had a nice, long career. I never disputed that. But in any given season he was never one of the 3 best/most dangerous RBs in the league, and was probably not ever top 5 either.

This latest idea of yours that Curtis produced every week he showed up is freaking ridiculous, and patently untrue. You are supposed to dig up out of a hole, not dig deeper into it. 

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The rest that were not meaningless he got 3.0 ypc. So thanks for touting the 4.1 figure you knew perfectly well was misleading. 

Curtis had a nice, long career. I never disputed that. But in any given season he was never one of the 3 best/most dangerous RBs in the league, and was probably not ever top 5 either.

This latest idea of yours that Curtis produced every week he showed up is freaking ridiculous, and patently untrue. You are supposed to dig up out of a hole, not dig deeper into it. 

oh now it's "one of the 3 best/MOST DANGEROUS"

I wouldn't call him a top 3 most dangerous, he wasn't a guy who was a threat to score on any play but he was a top 3-5 best RB in the majority of his seasons.

No player is great every week, you know every word isn't meant to be taken literally.  Curtis the majority of games produced for us.

I'm not the one in the hole, I'm not the one changing the argument every time a point gets roasted.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

oh now it's "one of the 3 best/MOST DANGEROUS"

I wouldn't call him a top 3 most dangerous, he wasn't a guy who was a threat to score on any play but he was a top 3-5 best RB in the majority of his seasons.

No player is great every week, you know every word isn't meant to be taken literally.  Curtis the majority of games produced for us.

I'm not the one in the hole, I'm not the one changing the argument every time a point gets roasted.

What do you mean "oh now"? I used that term right from the beginning of and throughout this exchange. 

[Jet Life]

Numbers wise no but the 2 Super Bowl MVPs lock him in. Case closed

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, Jet Life said:

Numbers wise no but the 2 Super Bowl MVPs lock him in. Case closed

he didn't deserve either MVP and that's for one game.  he does not even belong in the discussion

[Jet Life]

Just now, nyjunc said:

he didn't deserve either MVP and that's for one game.  he does not even belong in the discussion

Doesn't really matter what we think, hes in the history books with 2 SB MVPs. He will make the Hall of Fame, period.

[nyjunc]

7 minutes ago, Jet Life said:

Doesn't really matter what we think, hes in the history books with 2 SB MVPs. He will make the Hall of Fame, period.

not if there are smart, knowledgeable football people voting. leading a team to 17 & 19 pts in 2 SBs shouldn't get you into the HOF.

[Jetsplayer21]

15 minutes ago, Jet Life said:

Numbers wise no but the 2 Super Bowl MVPs lock him in. Case closed

So you are saying had he been on the Cleveland Browns, there is no way he gets in lol

[nyjunc]

there was a stat that came out after Brady completed another playoff comeback.  It said since 2000 Brady now has 10 postseason game winning drives in 4th qtr/OT, the next closest is Eli w/ 5 and that looks great on paper and will fool people but let's look at Eli's 5 career postseason GW drives in the 4th qtr or OT.

2007 at Dallas division round. NYg was trailing by a whopping 17-14 score in the 3rd.  NYG got the ball to start at the Dallas 37, drove to the 20 when the 3rd qtr ended and scored early 4th qtr to take a 21-17 lead.  NYG's D then held Dallas scoreless on their last 3 possessions(NYG O went 3 and out each time)

2007 NFC Championship at GB: game tied in OT, the legendary Brett Favre throws an INT to set the Giants up at the GB 34, they gain 5 yds on the ground and kick the GW FG

2007 SB: obviously great GW drive

2011 NFC Championship at SF: game tied 17-17 in OT, NYG drive stalls and they punt.  PR muffs/fumbles PR and NYG gets ball at SF 24, they run for 18 yds and kick FG for the win.

2011 SB: obviously great GW drive

 

so on paper it's 5, in reality it's 2.

 

Let's compare this to the 10 from Brady:

2001 div rd vs. Oak: trailed 13-3 in 4th in blizzard, he led them to 10 pts to tie the game then FG on 1st drive of OT

2001 SB vs. Rams: after D became 1st to ever blow a double digit 4th qtr lead(14 pts) Brady takes over at NE 17 w/ 1:21 to play and no timeouts after SL had just scored 14 pts to tie the game and had all the momentum. leads GW drive

2003 vs. ten div rd: 14-14 tie, gets ball at ten 40 w/ under 7 to play.  lead to GW FG.  Kind of Eli like.

2003 SB vs Car: Pats D becomes 2nd D ever to blow double digit 4th qtr lead in SB(this time "only" 11), Brady leads Pats to 18 pts in 4th qtr and GW FG drive

2006 at SD div rd: trailed 21-13 in 4th, scored Td and got 2 pt conv then kicked FG for win.  He did throw INT trailing by 9 and Troy Brown ripped it back so he gets some points taking away for that but this was still a real comeback.

2011 AFC Championship vs. Bal: trailed 20-16 entering 4th, GW drive began late 3rd at NE 37.  started 4th at Bal26.  Like Eli's Dallas one.

2014 vs. Bal div rd: trailed 31-28 in 4th, got ball w/ 10 mins left at NE 26. led TD drive to win it

2014 SB vs. Sea: trailed by 10 in 4th qtr, led 2 TD drives against all time great D for the win.

2016 SB vs. Atl: greatest comeback of all time, trailed 28-9 in 4th.  won 34-31 in OT.

2017 vs. Jax AFC Championship Game: trailed 20-10 in 4th, 2 TD drives and a win.

for him it's basically 8 of 10.  this is why we can't just take these #s at face value

[prime21]

On 1/19/2018 at 3:36 PM, nyjunc said:

not if there are smart, knowledgeable football people voting. leading a team to 17 & 19 pts in 2 SBs shouldn't get you into the HOF.

Remember...17 & 19 points is all that they needed to win

[nyjunc]

4 minutes ago, prime21 said:

Remember...17 & 19 points is all that they needed to win

correct, b/c the D's played great and held Brady to 14 & 17.  Bortles on the road led Jax to more pts against NE than Eli did in either SB yet he lost b/c his D didn't hold NE to 14 or 17 pts.   Bortles also led the Jax O to 20 pts which was the same as NYG in reg at Gb to win the 2007 NFC and 3 more than NYG in regulation to win the 2011 NFC.

this points just reinforce why he is not a HOfer.  he was in the right place at the right time, he wasn't a difference maker.

[nyjunc]

just want to throw this out there to.  In postseason Nick Foles has a 116 rating, thrown 5 Tds w/ 0 INts and led his Os to 23.3 PPG and in his lone playoff loss led his O to 24 points.

Blake Bortles has a 91 rating, led his O to 22.7 PPg and his lone playoff loss he led O to 20 points.

Eli Manning has an 87 postseason rating, led his Os to 18.9 PPG(includes 3 OTs) and in his playoff losses has led his Os to 10.5 PPG

 

 

Eli for the Hall of Fame! he is what true greatness is all about