Jet Nut Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 9 minutes ago, slimjasi said: The bolded is a strawman. Nobody thinks this to be true. You actually think different situations arent taken into account when looking at different QBs? Have no idea what youre talking about with the straw man comment. I literally copied and pasted it from your post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 1 minute ago, Jet Nut said: You actually think different situations arent taken into account when looking at different QBs? Have no idea what youre talking about with the straw man comment. I literally copied and pasted it from your post Serious question - do you know what a "strawman" is? You copied "You don't simply say, its all QB play, Allen and Darnold are in the same situation" from my post? Which one? LMAO. Now you are just making stuff up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, slimjasi said: This is all irrelevant (and you obviously know that it is). It doesn't matter what the league thought of Sam 3 years ago. The consensus is wrong all the time. The Bears traded up one draft pick to pick Trubisky instead of Mahomes or Watson. A lot of people loved Trubisky. (e.g. Kiper had Trubisky as the #1 QB in that draft class) It turns out, they were wrong. All that matters is that Sam (much like Geno) sucks as an NFL starter. It is totally relevant. He was a top 3 pick, a HUGE investment of assets and dollars. It makes a difference because you dont bring in a supporting cast for a 4th round pick but you sure as shlt should for a 3rd overall. When you take a QB 3rd overall its to start, bring in support, you dont leave to play with the same garbage that didnt produce and throw a rookie onto. So no, I obviously dont agree. You should rethink, because youre wrong Have no clue what youre talking about with Trubisky, the point was support for our QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Jet Nut said: Again, have no clue what this has to do with what I said. I said is that we may not know what he is or isnt moving forward because of the OL, RBs, WRs & CS hes played with. We dont know what he is, makes It difficult to decide if hes worth moving on from or not. We know if he is worth moving on from because it is 2021. Worth moving on from includes contract. In 1982 you could sit on a guy and hope that he developed. In 2021, you need to be ready to play by the time you are going to get paid and Darnold is getting paid in 2022. If you can't see that, or think that his WRs and coaching staff cluttered the view so much that he will be worth $25M in 2022, cool. I don't see it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 46 minutes ago, Savage69 said: If hope isn't part of being a fan what the hell are we doing here?? I'm discussing facts and making educated analysis of possible franchise decisions, and weighting which are more likely to lead to our success for a Super Bowl title. Sam has so far been the worst QB in the NFL for the three years he's been in the NFL (combined). Yes, he's had horrible coaches (I hate Gase like no other) and weak supporting talent. Like most top draft picks get early on, to be fair. He has completely failed to distinguish himself, to rise above his coaches or support players on his own talent or decision making, or to excel at pretty much anything. And he's missed time every year. Could he be salvaged? Sure, anything is possible. But again, the odds do not favor it. If we wish to ignore than and just yell "rah rah Sammy!" at the top of our voices while not doing anything to improve the QB position, ok I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage69 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 1 minute ago, Warfish said: I'm discussing facts and making educated analysis of possible franchise decisions, and weighting which are more likely to lead to our success for a Super Bowl title. Sam has so far been the worst QB in the NFL for the three years he's been in the NFL (combined). Yes, he's had horrible coaches (I hate Gase like no other) and weak supporting talent. Like most top draft picks get early on, to be fair. He has completely failed to distinguish himself, to rise above his coaches or support players on his own talent or decision making, or to excel at pretty much anything. And he's missed time every year. Could he be salvaged? Sure, anything is possible. But again, the odds do not favor it. If we wish to ignore than and just yell "rah rah Sammy!" at the top of our voices while not doing anything to improve the QB position, ok I guess. Fish if we won the Bowl you would find things to complain about..LOL Being a critic is something you enjoy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Just now, #27TheDominator said: We know if he is worth moving on from because it is 2021. Worth moving on from includes contract. In 1982 you could sit on a guy and hope that he developed. In 2021, you need to be ready to play by the time you are going to get paid and Darnold is getting paid in 2022. If you can't see that, or think that his WRs and coaching staff cluttered the view so much that he will be worth $25M in 2022, cool. I don't see it that way. Contract is different and I've said this since the 2020 season ended,. Its in play. Has to be. Good part with the NFLs slotted pay scale is a bad pick isnt a death knell like it used to be. But you dont want to turn it into one by picking up the option. I have no idea why youre lecturing me, I know how this works. All im saying is we dont know about Sam, not that we have to keep him damn the cost. But that has nothing to do with reality, that we would be moving on from a player theyre not sure about. More than likely IMO we wont be sorry, just there is no way of knowing for sure today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 7 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: It is totally relevant. He was a top 3 pick, a HUGE investment of assets and dollars. It makes a difference because you dont bring in a supporting cast for a 4th round pick but you sure as shlt should for a 3rd overall. When you take a QB 3rd overall its to start, bring in support, you dont leave to play with the same garbage that didnt produce and throw a rookie onto. So no, I obviously dont agree. You should rethink, because youre wrong Have no clue what youre talking about with Trubisky, the point was support for our QB. Plenty of top 3 picks have turned out to suck over the years. It happens. It doesn't matter what the league thought about Sam 3 seasons ago . . . at all. The Jets doing a bad job surrounding Sam with talent does not preclude the possibility that Sam is just a bad NFL QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, slimjasi said: Plenty of top 3 picks have turned out to suck over the years. It happens. It doesn't matter what the league thought about Sam 3 seasons ago . . . at all. The Jets doing a bad job surrounding Sam with talent does not preclude the possibility that Sam is just a bad NFL QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: I realize that it must be frustrating to iteratively defend a bad QB, but the good news is that you don't have to. Excuse-making is exhausting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Jet Nut said: Again, have no clue what this has to do with what I said. This seems to be a recurring theme. Maybe it's you and not everyone else? Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 15 minutes ago, Savage69 said: Fish if we won the Bowl you would find things to complain about. .LOL Being a critic is something you enjoy We're old mates Sav, but you're just wrong. I'll give you an example, the Nats (my Nats) won the Series in 2019. I've yet to complain to anyone about it. I do love the analysis, the numbers, the debates, that's the kinda guy I am (you can probably guess within a degree or two what I do for a living). But no man, no way. We win a title, I'm not complaining about it, but I likely will post about what they should do to win a second one! The problem is, we're not close, and mostly haven't been in over a decade. Lets get close first, then see how it goes, lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 15 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: All im saying is we dont know about Sam Respectfully, I think we know more about Sam than you think. Not the whole story, not yet, but we've seen three full years of him. We're not sitting in the dark on who and what he is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage69 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 16 minutes ago, Warfish said: We're old mates Sav, but you're just wrong. I'll give you an example, the Nats (my Nats) won the Series in 2019. I've yet to complain to anyone about it. I do love the analysis, the numbers, the debates, that's the kinda guy I am (you can probably guess within a degree or two what I do for a living). But no man, no way. We win a title, I'm not complaining about it, but I likely will post about what they should do to win a second one! The problem is, we're not close, and mostly haven't been in over a decade. Lets get close first, then see how it goes, lol! A belated congrats on your Nats.. I remember going to a bar after we won in 1969 that some Jet fans hung out in. And rather just celebrate a great win some had to say if we played them 9 more times we would get killed every game.. An no I don't put you in that class your description in bolded is what i meant I just said it wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 29 minutes ago, Warfish said: Respectfully, I think we know more about Sam than you think. Not the whole story, not yet, but we've seen three full years of him. We're not sitting in the dark on who and what he is. I respectfully disagree, we dont have the whole picture, and given the entire picture how could we? His problem is, like discussed before, he takes a financial commitment or he could be lost without a return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 38 minutes ago, slimjasi said: I realize that it must be frustrating to iteratively defend a bad QB, but the good news is that you don't have to. Excuse-making is exhausting. No what's frustrating is youre so hellbent on expalaining why he sucks and needs to go that after explain in at least 4 posts you still haven got that all I'm saying is we arent completely sure what he is. But you'll turn that into im defending him or making excuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 39 minutes ago, slimjasi said: This seems to be a recurring theme. Maybe it's you and not everyone else? Just a thought. No, its that you cant comprehend. I'll leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 9 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: No, its that you cant comprehend. I'll leave it at that. haha, cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 10 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: No what's frustrating is youre so hellbent on expalaining why he sucks I don't have to "explain" anything. His performance speaks for itself. Through 3 seasons, he has s*cked as a starting NFL QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 14 minutes ago, Jet Nut said: all I'm saying is we arent completely sure what he is. Ok, that's fair. But you have to acknowledge that he's been bad through 3 years of play, and historically speaking, that is a huge mitigating factor against his future prospects as a franchise QB. He has 38 starts under his belt. That's a significant sample size. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, slimjasi said: Ok, that's fair. But you have to acknowledge that he's been bad through 3 years of play, and historically speaking, that is a huge mitigating factor against his future prospects as a franchise QB. He has 38 starts under his belt. That's a significant sample size. OMG, we've had a breakthrough. I literally said this for the first time this morning. LOL Yes, yes, we dont know means he can be just as bad moving forward, never said he couldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 18 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said: Of course it matters that it's the 80s. 1) Because you need to go back that far to try to find a relevant example and 2) Because the likelihood of a dramatic improvement in play is less likely now, in an era where guys come in and succeed immediately. Ok what about Drew Brees and Alex Smith? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 10 hours ago, slimjasi said: I don't have to "explain" anything. His performance speaks for itself. Through 3 seasons, he has s*cked as a starting NFL QB. And yet he’s still better than any qb not named Lawrence in this draft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 5 hours ago, Philc1 said: And yet he’s still better than any qb not named Lawrence in this draft Even if we assume that is true (a huge assumption), that is still not a reason to roll with him as the starter for year 4. There are veteran QBs available who are better than Darnold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted March 4, 2021 Share Posted March 4, 2021 18 hours ago, slimjasi said: Even if we assume that is true (a huge assumption), that is still not a reason to roll with him as the starter for year 4. There are veteran QBs available who are better than Darnold. It’s not a huge assumption. These guys outside of Lawrence suck. At this point in their careers Drew Brees and Alex Smith had even worse numbers than Sam And if there are veteran QBs available who are better than sign one of them to compete with Sam next TC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 On 3/4/2021 at 4:05 AM, Philc1 said: It’s not a huge assumption. These guys outside of Lawrence suck. You have no clue what the QBs in this draft class will become. No clue. None of us do. You are guessing like everyone else. On 3/4/2021 at 4:05 AM, Philc1 said: At this point in their careers Drew Brees and Alex Smith had even worse numbers than Sam This isn't quite accurate with respect to Brees. Brees didn't start a single game his rookie season (He got some snaps in relief duty in one game). In Drew's third season as a tenured starter, he went to the Pro Bowl. In Sam's third year as a tenured starter, he was the worst starting QB in the NFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 3 hours ago, slimjasi said: You have no clue what the QBs in this draft class will become. No clue. None of us do. You are guessing like everyone else. This isn't quite accurate with respect to Brees. Brees didn't start a single game his rookie season (He got some snaps in relief duty in one game). In Drew's third season as a tenured starter, he went to the Pro Bowl. In Sam's third year as a tenured starter, he was the worst starting QB in the NFL. You are lost. Brees in his 3rd season not only did not make the pro bowl he had a 57% completion percentage and got benched If Drew Brees was so good by year 3 why did the Chargers draft Phillip Rivers in 2004? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 16 minutes ago, Philc1 said: You are lost. Brees in his 3rd season not only did not make the pro bowl he had a 57% completion percentage and got benched If Drew Brees was so good by year 3 why did the Chargers draft Phillip Rivers in 2004? Nope. Try reading slower. Brees didn't make the Pro Bowl until his fourth season, but it was only his 3rd season as a starting QB because he didn't start a single game in his rookie year. Once again, and make sure you read this nice and slowly - Brees was a pro bowl QB in his 3rd season as a starting NFL QB. Meanwhile, Darnold was arguably the worst QB in the league for the duration of his 3rd season as a starting NFL QB. Understand now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philc1 Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 On 3/5/2021 at 10:20 PM, slimjasi said: Nope. Try reading slower. Brees didn't make the Pro Bowl until his fourth season, but it was only his 3rd season as a starting QB because he didn't start a single game in his rookie year. Once again, and make sure you read this nice and slowly - Brees was a pro bowl QB in his 3rd season as a starting NFL QB. Meanwhile, Darnold was arguably the worst QB in the league for the duration of his 3rd season as a starting NFL QB. Understand now? You are playing semantics now. Brees did not blossom as a QB until 4 years after he was drafted by the chargers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Philc1 said: You are playing semantics now. Brees did not blossom as a QB until 4 years after he was drafted by the chargers It's not semantics. The point is that Brees became a good QB after 27 starts in the league. Darnold has already started 38 games and regressed badly in his last 13 starts. The Brees-Darnold comparison just isn't a vey good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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