Phil Simms - Year 3 Stats

[Dunnie]

They are, whereas one of Gale Sayers' ability clearly isn't.

Earl Campbell, OJ., Dickerson, Sanders

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[UntouchableCrew]

10 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

It has noting to do with the 80's game.  The whole point is that he was able to turn his career around.  

 

Of course it matters that it's the 80s.

1) Because you need to go back that far to try to find a relevant example and

2) Because the likelihood of a dramatic improvement in play is less likely now, in an era where guys come in and succeed immediately. 

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Of course it matters that it's the 80s.

1) Because you need to go back that far to try to find a relevant example and

2) Because the likelihood of a dramatic improvement in play is less likely now, in an era where guys come in and succeed immediately. 

One more time, the point is a QB after a bad period can turn it around, as Simms did.  

The idea that passing is easier today, that defenses are limited in what they can do somehow translates into Darnold cant turn it around like Simms did make 0 sense.  

And to me its not a matter of going back to any time or era to find a similar scenario.  I've never heard of or can come up with a similar situation where a top ranked QB was drafted top 3 in a draft and then given an OL on the level Sam's had, the shltty WRs hes been given, the group of RBs and most importantly the useless CS hes been given to develop his talents.  

Find me a single comparable situation.  Then we can discuss why no one else has turned it around in our era

[Jet Nut]

5 hours ago, Dunnie said:

Earl Campbell, OJ., Dickerson, Sanders

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app

 

A Peterson, Emmitt Smith, Edgerrin James, Marshall Faulk, Marcus Allen, Dorsett, LT, Bo, W Payton, 5 years of E George, CuMar, T Davis before the injury and the best of them all Jim Brown.

Can add a lot more really productive backs like The Bus, Riggins etc

Not as hard as naming just a few of the greats I've watched

[nycdan]

8 hours ago, NamathToCaster said:

Sam seems to always throw off his back foot.  Almost like he  is afraid to step into his throws.

Well that's where the ghosts are.

[UntouchableCrew]

16 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

.  I've never heard of or can come up with a similar situation where a top ranked QB was drafted top 3 in a draft and then given an OL on the level Sam's had, the shltty WRs hes been given, the group of RBs and most importantly the useless CS hes been given to develop his talents.  

 

You are correct that the excuse making for Sam Darnold is literally unprecedented.

[slimjasi]

16 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

One more time, the point is a QB after a bad period can turn it around, as Simms did.  

One more time, people aren't saying that Sam becoming a good NFL QB one day is physically impossible, what we are saying is that it is unlikely to happen. This is based on the fact that there are so few examples of guys becoming perennially above average QBs after 3 initial seasons of bottom tier QB play. 

For the people who want to stick with Sam as the 4th year starter, it's not enough to say that Sam could be good one day, you have to tell us why you think it is likely that he will be a good QB that we can win with, starting next year. 

[Jet Nut]

5 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

You are correct that the excuse making for Sam Darnold is literally unprecedented.

Its more like the stubborn who just cant admit that no one knows.

And just feel like arguing

[slimjasi]

5 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

You are correct that the excuse making for Sam Darnold is literally unprecedented.

It shows you how important it is to be liked. 

Sam is very well liked by the media and fanbase at large. He seems like a great guy. People really believed in him when he was drafted and desperately want him to be the guy. 

Compare the excuse-making for Sam to the excuse-making for Geno Smith. Geno got one less year here to prove himself and about 1% of the overall excuses. 

[Jet Nut]

1 minute ago, slimjasi said:

One more time, people aren't saying that Sam becoming a good NFL QB one day is physically impossible, what we are saying is that it is unlikely to happen. This is based on the fact that there are so few examples of guys becoming perennially above average QBs after 3 initial seasons of bottom tier QB play. 

For the people who want to stick with Sam as the 4th year starter, it's not enough to say that Sam could be good one day, you have to tell us why you think it is likely that he will be a good QB that we can win with, starting next year. 

One last time.

Name one comparable situation.  

Need a top ranked college QB.  

Drafted top 3.  

Gets as shltty an OL as Darnold.  

Gets as bad a running game.  

Gets as putrid a group of useless WRs and TEs.  

Is led by and untalented, unmotivated, unsupportive, incompetent CS devoid of imagination or play calling expertise.  

Find another example to compare to Darnold.  Not saying he can be fixed, saying I have no idea given the above.  

[UntouchableCrew]

10 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

It shows you how important it is to be liked. 

Sam is very well liked by the media and fanbase at large. He seems like a great guy. People really believed in him when he was drafted and desperately want him to be the guy. 

Compare the excuse-making for Sam to the excuse-making for Geno Smith. Geno got one less year here to prove himself and about 1% of the overall excuses. 

Couldn't agree more. 

[Jet Nut]

26 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

It shows you how important it is to be liked. 

Sam is very well liked by the media and fanbase at large. He seems like a great guy. People really believed in him when he was drafted and desperately want him to be the guy. 

Compare the excuse-making for Sam to the excuse-making for Geno Smith. Geno got one less year here to prove himself and about 1% of the overall excuses. 

Not comparable.

Sam was the top rated QB in his draft class.  Some claimed best since Luck.  We didnt expect to get him but somehow it worked that way.

Geno was a bigger question mark, some would say needed pick.

[NamathToCaster]

1 hour ago, nycdan said:

Well that's where the ghosts are.

Lol.  No way we can keep this guy.  Just can't.  Let him go work his magic somewhere else.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

One last time.

Name one comparable situation.  

Need a top ranked college QB.  

Drafted top 3.  

Gets as shltty an OL as Darnold.  

Gets as bad a running game.  

Gets as putrid a group of useless WRs and TEs.  

Is led by and untalented, unmotivated, unsupportive, incompetent CS devoid of imagination or play calling expertise.  

Find another example to compare to Darnold.  Not saying he can be fixed, saying I have no idea given the above.  

also add to this he had to learn 2 offenses in first 3 years which is hard enough, but much worse when you add everything else in. The fan base thinks these guys are madden players and not real people with brains and emotions that have to play the hardest position in all of sports.

 

[y2k8]

 

The OP would have been better served by making the comparison with another NY Giants QB.

Eli Manning was not very good his first 4 seasons.

Now he is going to the HoF.

[Warfish]

On 2/28/2021 at 10:48 AM, BettyBoop said:

Look familiar?

• Comp %: 54.4
• TD:  11
• INT:  9
• Yards: 2,031
• QB Rating: 74.0

Simms came back two years later (he was hurt for two years) with a new coach and threw for 4044 yards.

How about this 3rd year 1st round pick QB?

Comp%: 59.9
TD:  17
INT:  21
Yards:  3,040
QB Rating:  73.1

This 3rd year QB pretty much put up the same in his 4th year (a little better in some spots), played only 8 games through his 5th season, and that was it.  Out of the NFL for good.

Not sure why Phil Simms is relevant to Sam Darnold, or why my 3rd Year QB would be any less relevant to Darnold than Simms, but there you go.

Everyone knows it's POSSIBLE Darnold could rebound.  The question isn't possibility, it's likelihood.

Is it more likely Sam Darnold is Phil Simms?  Or that Sam Darnold is Tim Couch?
 

[Warfish]

P.S. I hate these kind of implied arguments.  

They basically boil down to "Have faith in Darnold, because a different QB, 30 years ago, on a different team, in a different era, with different coaches, and different players got past his early troubles to win.  So Darnold could too?"

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Its more like the stubborn who just cant admit that no one knows.

And just feel like arguing

Who gives a flaming ****?  The guy has the opportunity for a single quality season before he needs to be paid.  He has not earned a big contract. He has not even earned the 5th year option.  If Darnold, like Simms, will sign a 5 year 2nd deal for $3.8M l will take him.  Do you think he will go for it?

Phil Simms played before the era of true free agency was ushered in.  When his rookie deal ended teams still had to compensate when they signed someone's free agency.  Then there was that Plan B sh*t where you "protected" your top 37 players and the only free agents were Neville Hewitt styled special teamers, not stars.   Forget the on the field stuff, the NFL was literally a completely different world back then.  Teams could sit on guys and "develop" them.  Those days are long over. 

[Savage69]

1 minute ago, Warfish said:

How about this 3rd year 1st round pick QB?

Comp%: 59.9
TD:  17
INT:  21
Yards:  3,040
QB Rating:  73.1

This 3rd year QB pretty much put up the same in his 4th year (a little better in some spots), played only 8 games through his 5th season, and that was it.  Out of the NFL for good.

Not sure why Phil Simms is relevant to Sam Darnold, or why my 3rd Year QB would be any less relevant to Darnold than Simms, but there you go.

Everyone knows it's POSSIBLE Darnold could rebound.  The question isn't possibility, it's likelihood.

Is it more likely Sam Darnold is Phil Simms?  Or that Sam Darnold is Tim Couch?
 

Or is it Sam has never been in the right system for him to succeed?? Rich Gannon floated around for 10 years+ till he was in a system with the Raiders where he made 4 Pro Bowls All Pro twice and took his team to a bowl.. I'm not saying wait 10 years for Sam but does anyone really believe Mahomes, Allen,Lamar,Herbert or any young QB would have had the Jets in the playoffs in the last 3 years??

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Who gives a flaming ****?  The guy has the opportunity for a single quality season before he needs to be paid.  He has not earned a big contract. He has not even earned the 5th year option.  If Darnold will sign a 5 year 2nd deal for $3.8M l will take him.  Do you think he will go for it? 

And what does this have to do with what I said?

[Biggs]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

One last time.

Name one comparable situation.  

Need a top ranked college QB.  

Drafted top 3.  

Gets as shltty an OL as Darnold.  

Gets as bad a running game.  

Gets as putrid a group of useless WRs and TEs.  

Is led by and untalented, unmotivated, unsupportive, incompetent CS devoid of imagination or play calling expertise.  

Find another example to compare to Darnold.  Not saying he can be fixed, saying I have no idea given the above.  

He went top 10 the same year as Rosen who was ranked right with him.  Absolutely a worse situation than Sam Darnold and unlike Darnold he wasn't liked so he washed out immediately.  

Mitch Trubisky very comparable situation.  Winston and Mariotta very comparable.  All were drafted by teams with bottom of the barrel offenses.  

Sam is worse than all of them except Rosen.  Rosen hasn't gotten another chance. 

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

And what does this have to do with what I said?

Read the edit. 

Quote

Phil Simms played before the era of true free agency was ushered in.  When his rookie deal ended teams still had to compensate when they signed someone's free agency.  Then there was that Plan B sh*t where you "protected" your top 37 players and the only free agents were Neville Hewitt styled special teamers, not stars.   Forget the on the field stuff, the NFL was literally a completely different world back then.  Teams could sit on guys and "develop" them.  Those days are long over. 

Whether Darnold can improve is irrelevant.  They can't pay him off of what he has done, so they need to find somebody that is worth paying.  The reason guys don't get time to develop is the reality of the NFL in 2020

 

 

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, Biggs said:

He went top 10 the same year as Rosen who was ranked right with him.  Absolutely a worse situation than Sam Darnold and unlike Darnold he wasn't liked so he washed out immediately.  

Mitch Trubisky very comparable situation.  Winston and Mariotta very comparable.  All were drafted by teams with bottom of the barrel offenses.  

Sam is worse than all of them except Rosen.  Rosen hasn't gotten another chance. 

Sam played three seasons with less talent than Rosen had but only had one season to get abused.  Rosens had 16 starts.  

Trubisky has had talent, a whole lot more than Darnold with some really good defenses around him

[Savage69]

5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Read the edit. 

Whether Darnold can improve is irrelevant.  They can't pay him off of what he has done, so they need to find somebody that is worth paying.  The reason guys don't get time to develop is the reality of the NFL in 2020

 

 

On that I agree you can't have him past year 4 without a contract that is totally incentive based and no QB is signing that..

[Jet Nut]

4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Read the edit. 

Whether Darnold can improve is irrelevant.  They can't pay him off of what he has done, so they need to find somebody that is worth paying.  The reason guys don't get time to develop is the reality of the NFL in 2020

Again, have no clue what this has to do with what I said.   

I said is that we may not know what he is or isnt moving forward because of the OL, RBs, WRs & CS hes played with.  We dont know what he is, makes It difficult to decide if hes worth moving on from or not.  

 

[Warfish]

23 minutes ago, Savage69 said:

Or is it Sam has never been in the right system for him to succeed??

We could give Sam 180 seasons with 180 different coaches and systems, and you could still ask this question.

So it's not really a meaningful or answerable question.  If at the end of a player's third season as the #1 QB, the only defense is "well maybe the next system will be the right one", you don't really have anything factual to base it on.  It's just hope, not a logical argument.

How many players like Sam that became a Rich Gannon have their been?  How many players like Sam who never become Rich Gannon.  That is your answer, the ODDS strongly disfavor Sam being a Rich Gannon and strongly favor him being a backup or out of the NFL by the end of his 5th season.

[slimjasi]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

One last time.

Name one comparable situation.  

Need a top ranked college QB.  

Drafted top 3.  

Gets as shltty an OL as Darnold.  

Gets as bad a running game.  

Gets as putrid a group of useless WRs and TEs.  

Is led by and untalented, unmotivated, unsupportive, incompetent CS devoid of imagination or play calling expertise.  

Find another example to compare to Darnold.  Not saying he can be fixed, saying I have no idea given the above.  

This is simply unreasonable. There are virtually a countless number of variables in any given situation. By this logic, you wouldn't be able to compare any two QBs. 

At some point, the QB needs to take agency over his career and future. When Sam came back from injury in the middle of the season (first against the Bills at home and then against the Dolphins at home), he had the opportunity to play well enough to keep us from drafting his replacement. Instead, he played even worse than we had ever seen him play, going 5 straight games without a TD pass and repeatedly making inexcusable, head-scratching mistakes. This was his third year, not his first year. Simply put: Sam hasn't proven himself to be worth investing in any further. 

[Biggs]

17 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Sam played three seasons with less talent than Rosen had but only had one season to get abused.  Rosens had 16 starts.  

Trubisky has had talent, a whole lot more than Darnold with some really good defenses around him

Sam Bradford was signed to a two year deal to start in Rosen's first year and mentor him.  Bradford started the first 3 games and was so awful in the AZ O they threw Rosen into the fire.  The OC was fired midway through his first season, the HC was fired after his first season.  It was by far a worse situation than Sam has ever dealt with.   In Rosen's second year he went to a putrid Miami team that started the season with 7 consecutive losses with Fitzpatrick starting.   The Jets had arguably a better team last year than Miami.  We actually won more games with HC Adam Gase.  The Adam Gase who is (Hyperbole alert) the worst HC in the history of history who actually coached a Jets team to a better record than the Miami team that Rosen got a handful of meaningless starts with. 

Sam has sucked, he hasn't had the worst situation in the history of NFL football.  He has been in a classic situation for a high picked rookie QB.  Bad team in need of a QB picking a highly regarded NFL prospect.  

It's one thing to argue past production is not an indication of future production.  It's another thing to base it on a fictions "Worst situation in the history of competitive NFL football"  It's just pure BS.

Your position that Sam could become good with a good team around him is reasonable.  It's also complete speculation that's not based on past performance.  You're being argumentative.

Thanks in advance for the thumbs down!

 

[Savage69]

22 minutes ago, Warfish said:

We could give Sam 180 seasons with 180 different coaches and systems, and you could still ask this question.

So it's not really a meaningful or answerable question.  If at the end of a player's third season as the #1 QB, the only defense is "well maybe the next system will be the right one", you don't really have anything factual to base it on.  It's just hope, not a logical argument.

How many players like Sam that became a Rich Gannon have their been?  How many players like Sam who never become Rich Gannon.  That is your answer, the ODDS strongly disfavor Sam being a Rich Gannon and strongly favor him being a backup or out of the NFL by the end of his 5th season.

If hope isn't part of being a fan what the hell are we doing here??

[Jet Nut]

14 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

This is simply unreasonable. There are virtually a countless number of variables in any given situation. By this logic, you wouldn't be able to compare any two QBs. 

At some point, the QB needs to take agency over his career and future. When Sam came back from injury in the middle of the season (first against the Bills at home and then against the Dolphins at home), he had the opportunity to play well enough to keep us from drafting his replacement. Instead, he played even worse than we had ever seen him play, going 5 straight games without a TD pass and repeatedly making inexcusable, head-scratching mistakes. This was his third year, not his first year. Simply put: Sam hasn't proven himself to be worth investing in any further. 

Thats nice.  And your opinion.  You can compare QBs.  Their entire situations, the picture takes in all those variables.  You dont simply say, its all QB play, Allen and Darnold are in the same situation

Sorry dont agree.  

[More Cowbell]

On 2/28/2021 at 10:51 AM, Bronx said:

QBs we're not overly protected during Simms' career. These INTs are despicable, especially in today's QB friendly environment.

QB friendly? The Jets?

[Jet Nut]

19 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Sam Bradford was signed to a two year deal to start in Rosen's first year and mentor him.  Bradford started the first 3 games and was so awful in the AZ O they threw Rosen into the fire.  The OC was fired midway through his first season, the HC was fired after his first season.  It was by far a worse situation than Sam has ever dealt with.   In Rosen's second year he went to a putrid Miami team that started the season with 7 consecutive losses with Fitzpatrick starting.   The Jets had arguably a better team last year than Miami.  We actually won more games with HC Adam Gase.  The Adam Gase who is (Hyperbole alert) the worst HC in the history of history who actually coached a Jets team to a better record than the Miami team that Rosen got a handful of meaningless starts with. 

Sam has sucked, he hasn't had the worst situation in the history of NFL football.  He has been in a classic situation for a high picked rookie QB.  Bad team in need of a QB picking a highly regarded NFL prospect.  

It's one thing to argue past production is not an indication of future production.  It's another thing to base it on a fictions "Worst situation in the history of competitive NFL football"  It's just pure BS.

Your position that Sam could become good with a good team around him is reasonable.  It's also complete speculation that's not based on past performance.  You're being argumentative.

Thanks in advance for the thumbs down!

 

Rosen played part of one season.  He played with LFitzgerald, had Johnson a 1,000 yard RB.  One season, how can you compare and why would you compare a 1 year QB to Darnolds 3?  

My position is simple.  Its not that Sam could become good with a good team around him.  One more time, I've said too many times, we dont know that he couldn't.  But to say that " The Worst situation in the history of competitive NFL football" doesnt have an affect on a QBs development is ridiculous.

I dont give debates a thumbs down.  Only stupid comments. ?

 

 

[Jetsfan80]

MOAR threads BettyBoop.  They're the best and everyone wants them!

[slimjasi]

15 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Thats nice.  And your opinion.  You can compare QBs.  Their entire situations, the picture takes in all those variables.  You dont simply say, its all QB play, Allen and Darnold are in the same situation

Sorry dont agree.  

The bolded is a strawman. 

Nobody thinks this to be true. 

[slimjasi]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Sam was the top rated QB in his draft class.  Some claimed best since Luck.  We didnt expect to get him but somehow it worked that way.

Geno was a bigger question mark, some would say needed pick.

This is all irrelevant (and you obviously know that it is). It doesn't matter what the league thought of Sam 3 years ago. The consensus is wrong all the time. The Bears traded up one draft pick to pick Trubisky instead of Mahomes or Watson. A lot of people loved Trubisky. (e.g. Kiper had Trubisky as the #1 QB in that draft class) It turns out, they were wrong. 

All that matters is that Sam (much like Geno) sucks as an NFL starter.