Moving Forward with Douglas and Saleh

[Barry McCockinner]

1 hour ago, Saul Goodman said:

 

this photo screams poor coaching and communication.

[Matt39]

20 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

All GM's have bad drafts or every team would be loaded with pro bowlers. If you gave any GM in the NFL the chance to have 1 great draft like Douglas had and 2  bad ones that were not nearly as terrible as you make them out to be they would take it 10 out of 10 times

He hasn’t had any great drafts. He’s had two good rounds. His picks outside of that have been horrific. I have no idea what the Jets scouts do, have no idea what Douglas actually does or if they even show up to work. It’s a very bad situation all around. 

[batman10023]

2 hours ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

Saleh is a Todd Bowles clone and JD is arguably the worst GM in the entire NFL.  Good thing we have a very humble and knowledgeable owner 

don't sign up for the debate team because your argument is pretty weak.

>>>>

JD is arguably the worst GM in the entire NFL

[FootballLove]

2 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

I think moving forward with both is the right decision, if that's how it plays out. Douglas certainly has had some bad luck with the O Line the last few years yes he could have done some things differently but losing players like AVT and McGovern before the line ever had a chance to gel and basically get used to each other in a new offense was a killer. Yes McGovern is a middle of the road Center but I think we were all expecting Tippman to take over at some point and maybe have the option of interchanging McGovern at guard when needed or if one of the guards got nic'd up. The one player who seemed to be the wild card going into the season was Becton and he needs to be sent packing after this season he just cant handle speed rushers and that's simply a big part of what the NFL defenses are doing now so Becton is just not a fit and may wind up backing up somewhere or being moved inside OR just like on the DL be used as a specialist on running downs and short yardage situations on the inside. Ya never know.

Why I say run this back is because the freak injury to Rodgers was a real kick in the balls Like someone here said this team was not making the playoffs with the current back ups we had, and IMHO that was JD's biggest gaff when plenty of competent QB's were there for the taking early and Joe thought better to go with Zach . That could have had Woody smeared all over it but we may never know the full answer to that question. 

I think JD knows the ins and outs of being a GM quite well. He certainly knows how to handle contracts and not over pay which was something Macc had no clue on among other things. I think Joe has probably learned from his past 2 years of hoping OL would stay healthy and will move forward with a rebuilt line which at this point should only Include Tippman (who I believe will develop fine) AVT who will come back and is young enough to overcome that major injury and when it comes to Tomlinson I think surrounding him with better talent will certainly help. I think Tomlinson at times was off his game due to the crap around him and the line not working as a unit or even having a chance too. 

Based on cap situation which others here can better answer the first focus MUST be OL if all our cap must be spent on OL then so be it. I say that because Rodgers will be able to play the QB position just fine he will have Wilson who is a solid #1 and either draft another WR or just deal with what you have. Giving Rodgers full protection and he will get the WR's the ball and Breece Hall will once again be able to have some freedom form the 8 man fronts solely keyed on him. So a healthy Rodgers and a solid OL will be Key. 

Biggest decision is and has to be to move on from Nate Hackett  make him Rodgers personal QB coach since he can voice his opinion with Rodgers due to their relationship that might be a good buffer between Rodgers and a new OC. Woody will have to spend here and one good option for OC is Frank Reich he knows offense and having a top QB will be huge if the Jets were to go that direction. He did good with a young Carson Wentz and Wentz is no Rodgers but that brings me to Back up QB. Wentz is 30 years old he can move and he can throw his problem the last few years were the situations he was in and trying to do too much on inferior teams. If we were to get Wentz on the Cheap convince him to stay behind Rodgers for 2 years we could very well have a 32 year old QB that's very very capable of giving us a solid 5 years and be a  bridge to our next rookie QB .

I don't think any of this is unattainable but the other Wild card is Davonte Adams. We have to build the OL I don't see how this move can happen unless we cheap out on the OL which is obviously NOT an option or if Davonte comes with a cap friendly deal to play with his bud and win a SB. Because lets face it if we were able to solidify the OL Sign Davonte and get that proven OC this team will be back in business pretty quick. I think JD can make this happen we may lose some players in the process but that's just too long of a debate to have just focus on what needs to be done and let it fall into place because its our only option at this point . We have a lot of young players who are very good signing all of them will be hard so our window is about 2 years and when it comes down to those decisions I think JD is the guy I want making them. 

Nice write up. I especially like the Wentz option.

OK, I think what we saw last season, trade deadline, etc, and what we're about to see is a GM with a mature roster, highly paid QB1, and cap space topped out.

We've all lived through the rebuild years with Joe Douglas....no highly paid QB, tons of draft capital, and tons of cap space to go along for the ride. 2 yrs ago we get Sauce Gardner, Garrett Wilson, Jermain Johnson, and Breece Hall in the 1st 2 rounds. Last year we got Will O'l McDonald.

What we saw last draft, and going forward, is where we are now. One pick that's not a top ten. Or maybe one pick that's not even a top 20. Basically, we're in the same boat as teams like the Pats, Steelers, Chiefs have been in for the last half decade.

The reason JD didn't use the trade deadline to bring in a top WR or a few top Lineman is the same reason he won't do it next season either. Those days are over. Our cap is now used up with the roster we have. Only way to free up cap is to cut starters. And every off season, we will cut starters to free up cap.

Don't tell me "well they signed Cook, so the could have not done that and signed another QB, or WR, or decent lineman at the trade deadline". Not really. Cook signed a friendly one year deal. You never get good lineman or great WRs signing team friendly one year deals.

Those days are over. 

We now get to see how JD manages a mature roster that's up against it with cap space. 

[batman10023]

14 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

this photo screams poor coaching and communication.

it's comically sad

[Claymation]

2 hours ago, Saul Goodman said:

 

[rangerous]

I’m not so sure they both need to stay or go together.  To me that’s just a reenactment of the Bowles/ Mac scenario.  I think I would really consider launching Baghdad bob.  His who schtick about love and peace in the locker room just doesn’t translate into wins very well.  He got rid of cavanaugh because he wanted a quieted qb room so milfy would have complete control.  Well most times dissenting voices are valuable.  A newbie coach isn’t so smart they he knows what’s best.  I don’t think having Rodgers next season is any rationale for keeping him either.  Just what good is he if his whole offensive philosophy is run, run, pass.  And please don’t say this is all Hacketts doing because it’s not.  Without knowing the responsibility flow down it’s hard to say just how much influence saleh has on the offense but it’s probably more than anyone admits.  And consider what happens if Rodgers throws some picks in a loss.  I can saleh demanding the team run more, throw short, and not take chances.

 The thing too is, assuming they do have a good season next year, it will most likely mean both Douglas and saleh get extensions.  Then what happens after Rodgers?  If Douglas brings in a rookie qb there is absolutely no reason to expect salehs coaches will be able to develop him.  And just what will Rodgers do if they launch saleh and upset all that peace and love?  Probably nothing.  He’s under contract and he could still have as much sway with the offense as he does now.

 Finally I think if saleh is launched the jets could easily make Ulbrich head coach.  I’m guessing he knows way more about offenses than saleh does.

[redlichtie]

1 hour ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I would absolutely have mixed feelings if JD was gone (especially with Woody being the man to choose a successor) but it's obviously gotten increasingly difficult to defend his record. 

If Mike Tomlin shakes free from Pittsburgh and we could replace Saleh with him then I'd be okay with extending JD and letting he and Tomlin run things for a few years (with a long-term approach to drafting, FA, etc).  If not, though, I get a sick feeling in my stomach about the idea of bringing both JD and Saleh back.  They'll both have to think short-term, which means passing up on a potential FQB, and there's a real chance that next year will be another complete nightmare.  Imagine that becomes apparent in the first couple of weeks next year?  Jet fan venom would be at an all-time high in such a scenario.

I don’t understand how people want Saleh gone but give Douglas a free pass? I’m not for advocating binning off JD at all, for any number of reasons, not least of which being that we put all our eggs in the Rodgers basket so we are kind of stuck with him and therefor everyone else, for better or worse, but if people think the HC is the problem then how come the guy who hired that HC gets off Scott free?….. Especially as he totally torpedoed the last guy by gutting the ‘talent’ on the team that he (Gase) managed to at least win 7 games with (and everyone here thought that was the worst HC in history in charge of the least talented roster in history). 
Douglas is bizarrely overrated here, seemingly on the back of a couple of decent trades and not completely botching 3 first round picks and a very high 2nd rounder last year.
I don’t believe we should clear house and fire everyone…yet…but absolutely under no circumstances does Joe Douglas get a 3rd bite at the head coaching cherry in my opinion. It’s Douglas and Saleh with Rodgers going forward. We were sold this fantasy that Joe Douglas was doing rebuilds the right way, we’ve seen what a nonsense that was, he’s done a solid job of providing himself with lots of lovely draft capital but selling off the family silver was the easy bit, actually using those draft picks wisely though has proven to be a very mixed bag. Sure he’s drafted a couple of really good players but he’s had more draft picks than any GM in recent memory, even the blind squirrel can find a nut etc etc and he’s not Idzik level bad but there are way too many misses for the jury to be anything other than out.

[Prodigal Syndicate]

Douglas has done so much damage to this team its not even funny.

 

That Arod contract alone is a nightmare and the team is gonna be held hostage by him every offseason.

[OilfieldJet]

5 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

I think moving forward with both is the right decision, if that's how it plays out. Douglas certainly has had some bad luck with the O Line the last few years yes he could have done some things differently but losing players like AVT and McGovern before the line ever had a chance to gel and basically get used to each other in a new offense was a killer. Yes McGovern is a middle of the road Center but I think we were all expecting Tippman to take over at some point and maybe have the option of interchanging McGovern at guard when needed or if one of the guards got nic'd up. The one player who seemed to be the wild card going into the season was Becton and he needs to be sent packing after this season he just cant handle speed rushers and that's simply a big part of what the NFL defenses are doing now so Becton is just not a fit and may wind up backing up somewhere or being moved inside OR just like on the DL be used as a specialist on running downs and short yardage situations on the inside. Ya never know.

Why I say run this back is because the freak injury to Rodgers was a real kick in the balls Like someone here said this team was not making the playoffs with the current back ups we had, and IMHO that was JD's biggest gaff when plenty of competent QB's were there for the taking early and Joe thought better to go with Zach . That could have had Woody smeared all over it but we may never know the full answer to that question. 

I think JD knows the ins and outs of being a GM quite well. He certainly knows how to handle contracts and not over pay which was something Macc had no clue on among other things. I think Joe has probably learned from his past 2 years of hoping OL would stay healthy and will move forward with a rebuilt line which at this point should only Include Tippman (who I believe will develop fine) AVT who will come back and is young enough to overcome that major injury and when it comes to Tomlinson I think surrounding him with better talent will certainly help. I think Tomlinson at times was off his game due to the crap around him and the line not working as a unit or even having a chance too. 

Based on cap situation which others here can better answer the first focus MUST be OL if all our cap must be spent on OL then so be it. I say that because Rodgers will be able to play the QB position just fine he will have Wilson who is a solid #1 and either draft another WR or just deal with what you have. Giving Rodgers full protection and he will get the WR's the ball and Breece Hall will once again be able to have some freedom form the 8 man fronts solely keyed on him. So a healthy Rodgers and a solid OL will be Key. 

Biggest decision is and has to be to move on from Nate Hackett  make him Rodgers personal QB coach since he can voice his opinion with Rodgers due to their relationship that might be a good buffer between Rodgers and a new OC. Woody will have to spend here and one good option for OC is Frank Reich he knows offense and having a top QB will be huge if the Jets were to go that direction. He did good with a young Carson Wentz and Wentz is no Rodgers but that brings me to Back up QB. Wentz is 30 years old he can move and he can throw his problem the last few years were the situations he was in and trying to do too much on inferior teams. If we were to get Wentz on the Cheap convince him to stay behind Rodgers for 2 years we could very well have a 32 year old QB that's very very capable of giving us a solid 5 years and be a  bridge to our next rookie QB .

I don't think any of this is unattainable but the other Wild card is Davonte Adams. We have to build the OL I don't see how this move can happen unless we cheap out on the OL which is obviously NOT an option or if Davonte comes with a cap friendly deal to play with his bud and win a SB. Because lets face it if we were able to solidify the OL Sign Davonte and get that proven OC this team will be back in business pretty quick. I think JD can make this happen we may lose some players in the process but that's just too long of a debate to have just focus on what needs to be done and let it fall into place because its our only option at this point . We have a lot of young players who are very good signing all of them will be hard so our window is about 2 years and when it comes down to those decisions I think JD is the guy I want making them. 

My first thought was a "Thelma & Louise" scenario.

 

My Second thought is "No".

[OilfieldJet]

4 hours ago, Falco21 said:

I think a lot of teams were ready to "whiff" on him.

Hard to blame JD on this one. Seemed like a solid signing and everyone agreed at the time. Not sure what happened to him.

Wait, "hard to blame JD"? Seriously? The man is paid to identify talent. How else do you blame?

[cat999]

1 hour ago, OilfieldJet said:

Wait, "hard to blame JD"? Seriously? The man is paid to identify talent. How else do you blame?

I think Douglas has had more success in identifying talent than given credit for when you include waiver pickups and UDFA.  Might be missing some, but here is at least a partial list of the talent he's brought in either by draft or via waiver/UDFA that are at least solid contributors:

JFM, Quincy,, Bryce Hall, Tony Adams, Ashtyn Davis,  G WIlson, Hall, Clemons, JJ, Sauce, MC2, Echols, Sherwood, AVT, Tippman. Ruckert

In addition, he's been good with trades

Two biggest weaknesses have been with free agent signings (not a lot of good bedsides Reed) and contingency planning, with the latter being the main reason for our problems this season.  As has been so often repeated, going into 2023 without a veteran QB and counting on:

- Becton to be healthy and at least get back to where he was in his first season after sitting for 2

- Tomlinson to somehow improve off an awful 2022

- An injured Duane Brown to contribute at 38 

- AVT to bounce back and be healthy even though he might end up playing out of position

- Max Mitchell to take a big leap

- Carter Warren (prob better suited to G) to be a swing tackle

Yikes

Edited December 21, 2023 by cat999
typo

[Ron Rico]

6 minutes ago, cat999 said:

I think Douglas has had more success in identifying talent than given credit for when you include waiver pickups and UDFA.  Might be missing some, but here is at least a partial list of the talent he's brought in via that route that are at least solid contributors:

JFM, Quincy,, Bryce Hall, Tony Adams, Ashtyn Davis, G WIlson, Hall, Clemons, JJ, Sauce, MC2, Echols, Sherwood, AVT, Tippman.

 

"When you include waiver pickups and UDFA" 

LOL half the guys you listed are draft picks. 

[cat999]

9 minutes ago, Ron Rico said:

"When you include waiver pickups and UDFA" 

LOL half the guys you listed are draft picks. 

No s**t, poorly worded,  I added the UDFA and Waiver pickups to the drafted players to provide a fuller picture of the talent he brought in. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by cat999
typo

[Ron Rico]

9 minutes ago, cat999 said:

No s**t, poorly worded,  I added the UDFA and Waiver pickups to the drafted players to provide a fuller picture of the talent he brought in. 

Fine, make your list of UDFA and Waiver pickups. Go.

[Fantasy Island]

6 hours ago, Falco21 said:

I think a lot of teams were ready to "whiff" on him.

Hard to blame JD on this one. Seemed like a solid signing and everyone agreed at the time. Not sure what happened to him.

Tomlinson made AVT move to different spots.  The injuries then started happening. Horrible FA signing.  JD is the fat plague.

[OilfieldJet]

2 hours ago, cat999 said:

I think Douglas has had more success in identifying talent than given credit for when you include waiver pickups and UDFA.  Might be missing some, but here is at least a partial list of the talent he's brought in either by draft or via waiver/UDFA that are at least solid contributors:

JFM, Quincy,, Bryce Hall, Tony Adams, Ashtyn Davis,  G WIlson, Hall, Clemons, JJ, Sauce, MC2, Echols, Sherwood, AVT, Tippman. Ruckert

In addition, he's been good with trades

Two biggest weaknesses have been with free agent signings (not a lot of good bedsides Reed) and contingency planning, with the latter being the main reason for our problems this season.  As has been so often repeated, going into 2023 without a veteran QB and counting on:

- Becton to be healthy and at least get back to where he was in his first season after sitting for 2

- Tomlinson to somehow improve off an awful 2022

- An injured Duane Brown to contribute at 38 

- AVT to bounce back and be healthy even though he might end up playing out of position

- Max Mitchell to take a big leap

- Carter Warren (prob better suited to G) to be a swing tackle

Yikes

The man has a record of 20-46. Game. Set. Match.

[Rich Thornburgh]

12 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

How is he a Todd Bowles clone? I don't like either as a head coach but see them as much different on game day.

They’re both defensive coordinators who run soft practices and can’t make adjustments during the game

[Rich Thornburgh]

7 hours ago, OilfieldJet said:

The man has a record of 20-46. Game. Set. Match.

How is JD considered good by anyone

[Biggs]

13 hours ago, OilfieldJet said:

Wait, "hard to blame JD"? Seriously? The man is paid to identify talent. How else do you blame?

JD is paid to draft at the NFL mean and manage free agents around the cap.   The system of draft picks being awarded by record  plus the cap makes the GMs job a matter of managing data.  it’s pure money ball.  

The talent is evaluated by numerous scouting services.  The information on every player is public.  AI can evaluate who to draft at what slot. .  GMs are a dime a dozen.  Coaches deal with the psychology, the development and every aspect of in game management.   The HC and the staff that’s put in place around him is way more important than the GM.

The coaching staff is paid to develop the talent and figure out how to use it to exploit the strength of their talent against the strength of the opponent.  They also coach the talent to be fundamentally sound, scheme the talent to put them in position to win against a changing opponent every week.  

JD may be doing a poor job in data management or data management might be undermined by the owner and HC?  If that’s the case we really need JD to run another team to see if the results are different over time.  

Saleh  and Woody seem like a much bigger problem.