Daniels >> Nabers

[T0mShane]

 

[maury77]

@JustInFudge and @Paradis I agree that Nabers is not a top 5 talent in this particular draft that happens to be strong at the top. There have been weaker drafts were I would consider slotting him in the top 5. 

[JustInFudge]

11 hours ago, T0mShane said:

 

WTF does this chart even indicate?  lmfao  Do you actually follow PFF or something? You seem to quote them quite a bit.  Does it matter that this list has QB's who've started less then half of the amount of games as Jayden did in his career?  Does it matter that you have players who have played at North Dakota St. and BYU on this list?  Further, what constitutes a pressure?  Does it matter Caleb Williams in his 2 full starting years at USC has taken 30+ sacks a year?   Is it worse to take a sack while getting pressured vs. not getting pressured?  Does it matter that the 2nd best QB in the NFL is 3 on the list? 

Do better.

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, maury77 said:

@JustInFudge and @Paradis I agree that Nabers is not a top 5 talent in this particular draft that happens to be strong at the top. There have been weaker drafts were I would consider slotting him in the top 5. 

And that's all I think either of us are saying, he's a fine prospect but idk, I think I said it at some point in this thread, how does he profile out, higher than Odunze? who is 6'3, 215 and could run a 4.3?  Dude is a freak, he's physical and fights like a beast for the ball, incredible tracking, incredible adjustments, unreal hands, great route runner, lines up all over the LOS, can use numerous different get off techniques, can return kicks, etc etc etc.  Not gunna lie, if you're telling me right now the Jets are going WR at 10, I'd want it to be Odunze. 

 

 

[dbatesman]

15 hours ago, T0mShane said:

 

My understanding is that this isn't really fixable, either. Guys that take a ton of sacks in college take a ton of sacks in the pros.

[JustInFudge]

13 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

My understanding is that this isn't really fixable, either. Guys that take a ton of sacks in college take a ton of sacks in the pros.

Curious, did you see that Joe Burrow was 3rd on the list?

And what do you think that says about Caleb Williams (32) and Drake Maye (29) who took more sacks then Daniels (22) in 2023?

[T0mShane]

3 hours ago, JustInFudge said:

Curious, did you see that Joe Burrow was 3rd on the list?

And what do you think that says about Caleb Williams (32) and Drake Maye (29) who took more sacks then Daniels (22) in 2023?

Burrow takes a sh*t ton of sacks 
 

[dbatesman]

4 hours ago, JustInFudge said:

Curious, did you see that Joe Burrow was 3rd on the list?

And what do you think that says about Caleb Williams (32) and Drake Maye (29) who took more sacks then Daniels (22) in 2023?

Joe Burrow gets sacked all the time. He was the most-sacked QB in the league his second year. 

I have no idea what it says. I don't really like Williams or Maye as prospects either, if that's what you're asking. Taking a bunch of sacks also doesn't preclude you from being really good--Burrow led the league in completion percentage and YPA and had his team in the Super Bowl the same year he led the league in sacks--but it's also not something to just brush off.

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Burrow takes a sh*t ton of sacks 
 

I almost remember something about concerns w/ his OL and discussions about Chase over OT but idk, context doesnt matter in these conversations.

[T0mShane]

14 minutes ago, JustInFudge said:

I almost remember something about concerns w/ his OL and discussions about Chase over OT but idk, context doesnt matter in these conversations.

That’s why they make it “pressures that turn into sacks” instead of just counting sacks. Obviously, QBs who drop back a lot are going to get sacked more. QBs that play behind all-world OLs have an advantage over QBs playing behind trash. What this metric looks for is what these QBs do on plays where the pressure comes, expressed as a percentage. A big hidden feature of Anthony Richardson’s appeal last year was that he had a low pressure to sack ratio. 

 

[T0mShane]

2 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Joe Burrow gets sacked all the time. He was the most-sacked QB in the league his second year. 

I have no idea what it says. I don't really like Williams or Maye as prospects either, if that's what you're asking. Taking a bunch of sacks also doesn't preclude you from being really good--Burrow led the league in completion percentage and YPA and had his team in the Super Bowl the same year he led the league in sacks--but it's also not something to just brush off.

Did you see Kurt Warner’s tantrum on Twitter about evaluating these QBs? Pretty good stuff, even if it’s old-man-v-clouds. 

 

[SickJetFan]

Not that the NFL ever gets these grades right considering they gave Breece Hall 6.38 vs ZW a 6.50.  This year they giving Maye the same grade they did ZW coming out.  While also grading Nabers as best in draft.

 

https://www.nfl.com/combine/tracker/participants/all-positions/all-colleges/

 

 

[Lupz27]

On 2/19/2024 at 5:13 PM, Beerfish said:

Which QBs?   How do you rank them?

Williams 1

Maye 2

Daniels 3

Or you swap Maye and Daniels if you prefer.

I think the Fields Daniels comparison is a good one.  I think they are going to be similar QBs

Fields and Daniels are not a good comparison in the least.

Daniels is Him Fields is not.

Williams will set your Franchise back 5 years bust city.

Maye I like but not over Daniels.

Daniels should be First pick in draft period and it’s not even close.

[Lupz27]

18 hours ago, JustInFudge said:

Curious, did you see that Joe Burrow was 3rd on the list?

And what do you think that says about Caleb Williams (32) and Drake Maye (29) who took more sacks than Daniels (22) in 2023?

Dude how do we storm the castle and take over the show and trade up for Daniels.

I’m open to any ideas to get this done!

[JustInFudge]

12 hours ago, T0mShane said:

That’s why they make it “pressures that turn into sacks” instead of just counting sacks. Obviously, QBs who drop back a lot are going to get sacked more. QBs that play behind all-world OLs have an advantage over QBs playing behind trash. What this metric looks for is what these QBs do on plays where the pressure comes, expressed as a percentage. A big hidden feature of Anthony Richardson’s appeal last year was that he had a low pressure to sack ratio. 

 

Ok fine, so Caleb Williams and Drake Maye take more sacks on less pressures, how is that a good thing?

 

[JustInFudge]

14 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Joe Burrow gets sacked all the time. He was the most-sacked QB in the league his second year. 

I have no idea what it says. I don't really like Williams or Maye as prospects either, if that's what you're asking. Taking a bunch of sacks also doesn't preclude you from being really good--Burrow led the league in completion percentage and YPA and had his team in the Super Bowl the same year he led the league in sacks--but it's also not something to just brush off.

Do you consider growth in a player from year to year a good thing or do we also ignore that in a prospect?

 

 

[JustInFudge]

8 hours ago, SickJetFan said:

Not that the NFL ever gets these grades right considering they gave Breece Hall 6.38 vs ZW a 6.50.  This year they giving Maye the same grade they did ZW coming out.  While also grading Nabers as best in draft.

 

https://www.nfl.com/combine/tracker/participants/all-positions/all-colleges/

 

 

Is this overall or how they think they're going to test out at combine?

[dbatesman]

1 hour ago, JustInFudge said:

Do you consider growth in a player from year to year a good thing or do we also ignore that in a prospect?

I ignore everything in every prospect except that graph Tom posted

[SickJetFan]

1 hour ago, JustInFudge said:

Is this overall or how they think they're going to test out at combine?

I am not sure they adjust these.  At least I have never notice that they do. 

[JustInFudge]

25 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

I ignore everything in every prospect except that graph Tom posted

[section314]

15 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Did you see Kurt Warner’s tantrum on Twitter about evaluating these QBs? Pretty good stuff, even if it’s old-man-v-clouds. 

 

To echo Warner’s point,  the only guy who got pure NFL concept coaching and not this college crap offense is JJ McCarthy. If he shows the arm strength and accuracy at combine and pro day, who knows? 

[Lupz27]

2 hours ago, section314 said:

To echo Warner’s point,  the only guy who got pure NFL concept coaching and not this college crap offense is JJ McCarthy. If he shows the arm strength and accuracy at combine and pro day, who knows? 

Most of these kids are all very similar in different ways talent wise as a QB.

You can measure anything you want physically when guys are this close in talent NONE of it matters.

2 things matter.

Being developed 

And the mostly unmeasurable intangibles like Heart, work ethic, ability to lead men, and the most important thing courage, can you stand in the pocket knowing a 300 pound animal is going to try and kill you and still be able to deliver the ball where it should go on time (See Brock Purdy).

This is why I loved Mahomes so much you could actually predict him to have these intangibles based on the way he grew up all you had to do is not be lazy (NFL scouts) and do the homework and Andy Reid and the Chiefs were really the only ones who did.

This brings me back to Daniels and why I like him so much I see how he leads men for 5 years now, not to mention which correlates with Tom’s chart above he doesn’t do stupid sh*t with the ball when things go wrong just like Burrow he takes the sack doesn’t turn the ball over and lives to play another down knowing he can make a big play to get that back.  

Thats what is so special about Burrow and the other greats they don’t get rattled by this sh*t, move on to the next play which keeps your team in the game as long as you do have some big plays in you like Burrow has shown he can do.  Yes having a Chase Mixon and Higgins helps, but the Jets have Wilson Hall and hopefully a Higgins or someone comparable going forward if they did get Daniels (I know pipe dream because we are all in on Rodgers which is stupid, IMO you can be both all in this year on Rodgers and trade up and get Daniels).

Caleb Williams is a bitch, selfish and to me has shown he won’t be able to handle the adversity in the NFL just my read.

Maye I have not done enough to have a real strong opinion and it’s not his physical tools everyone knows he has the physical tools to play in the NFL.  Gotta find out more about the man inside and I haven’t looked into that yet personally.

[Paradis]

On 2/23/2024 at 4:34 AM, maury77 said:

@JustInFudge and @Paradis I agree that Nabers is not a top 5 talent in this particular draft that happens to be strong at the top. There have been weaker drafts were I would consider slotting him in the top 5. 

That's fine. Living up top 5 hype isn't easy tbh... I mostly just neurotic in the need to push back against ceaseless tire pumping by wayward daftniks XD 

[Paradis]

On 2/23/2024 at 4:00 PM, T0mShane said:

Did you see Kurt Warner’s tantrum on Twitter about evaluating these QBs? Pretty good stuff, even if it’s old-man-v-clouds. 

 

I feel you here, but i think Kurts war with the clouds highlights the difficulty in scouting QBs... very little of what they do in college can be transposed to the NFL game... you need a stable of whisperers and QB coaches to work these guys out; understand their appetite for development, getting eyes on their mechanics, and somehow figure out their proclivities under pressure. Statistically their pre-draft rankings are loose at best.

[JustInFudge]

On 2/24/2024 at 10:32 AM, section314 said:

To echo Warner’s point,  the only guy who got pure NFL concept coaching and not this college crap offense is JJ McCarthy. If he shows the arm strength and accuracy at combine and pro day, who knows? 

Did he though?  Not arguing Harbaugh is a great coach but the system he had McCarthy running, you dont really see in the NFL outside of maybe Greg Roman, I guess maybe Daboll too.  Though I think that is what is great about Harbaugh, he is adaptable.  How he coached Luck vs. Smith vs. Kaep vs. the hodge podge of QB's before JJ at Michigan is very different but I think McCarthy is going to have a big learning curve.  Not just because Michigan was run heavy but also the passing concepts were super duper basic.  Lots of moving pockets, lots of reading one side of the field, ton of RPO and play action, etc.  That said, I think he's going to impress big time at combine/pro days.   So you're right for that perspective, who knows?  lol

[Chrebetfan80]

On 2/23/2024 at 7:00 PM, T0mShane said:

Did you see Kurt Warner’s tantrum on Twitter about evaluating these QBs? Pretty good stuff, even if it’s old-man-v-clouds. 

 

he's not wrong.  The college concepts are easier than most, less choice routes, less post snap decision making.  Usually its split field concepts.  Pre snap depending on the look they pick a side to work off of. Then its all about picking on one conflict player. 

Not that that doesnt happen in the NFL but there is way more choice routes where WR's have to decipher coverage mid route, and have to be on the same page as the QB and then you have west coast based systems that rely on timing and understanding which many in college do not have. 

[Chrebetfan80]

On 2/26/2024 at 12:58 AM, Paradis said:

I feel you here, but i think Kurts war with the clouds highlights the difficulty in scouting QBs... very little of what they do in college can be transposed to the NFL game... you need a stable of whisperers and QB coaches to work these guys out; understand their appetite for development, getting eyes on their mechanics, and somehow figure out their proclivities under pressure. Statistically their pre-draft rankings are loose at best.

by the way... more I watch... Nabers is my clear #2 in the draft.  I think theres more to his game than we've seen.. 

[Paradis]

2 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

by the way... more I watch... Nabers is my clear #2 in the draft.  I think theres more to his game than we've seen.. 

[Chrebetfan80]

2 hours ago, Paradis said:

maybe its just my computer but hard to get the joke with this gif not working lol

[Guilhermezmc]

@Paradis

After watching some of Nabers games the guy just looks likes the clear cut number two pretty much a number one in every other draft.

He would complement GW so well but it looks like a pipe dream that he falls to 10, i would move up for him.

In other notes, Odunze scares me, the separation is just not there, not that his game is anything like Denzel Mims but its giving me PTSD.

[TRUE GREEN]

It kills me. Everyone focuses on speed way too much instead of route running and hands.  Lets be clear when I say hands I mean actually catching the ball the right way with proper form. Not body catching or bad form.  Can anyone say Pacua!!!!  Nabers is speed but look at his catches his hands are not great.  To me the two best catchers of the ball are Coleman and Pearsall.  Pearsall may be the next Pacua.

In regards to Daniels, I like his feet and the long ball but his intermediate throwing is suspect but I do believe he can develop that and I like him.  Caleb is huge bust alert.  I like Maye HOWEVER... there are some schools  that I just stay away from when it comes to QBs.. NC and USC are definitely two of them.  Palmer the only good QB out of those two school was C Palmer.    I think JJ McCarthy could be the next great QB,  Why?  Because he didn't even show everything he can do because of the system.  ALA  another Michigan QB back in the day.  That does not mean he will reach that level but I do think he is will be better than Maye, Williams and Daniels.  If a QB falls to ten  preferably Daniels or McCarthy the just HAVE to take them.  It is not expected from them but it will be best for our future.  If we can sign Williams then we don't have a true GLARING need. If they don't fall you trade down and try and get a 2nd rounder.

[TRUE GREEN]

On 2/24/2024 at 1:31 PM, Lupz27 said:

Most of these kids are all very similar in different ways talent wise as a QB.

You can measure anything you want physically when guys are this close in talent NONE of it matters.

2 things matter.

Being developed 

And the mostly unmeasurable intangibles like Heart, work ethic, ability to lead men, and the most important thing courage, can you stand in the pocket knowing a 300 pound animal is going to try and kill you and still be able to deliver the ball where it should go on time (See Brock Purdy).

This is why I loved Mahomes so much you could actually predict him to have these intangibles based on the way he grew up all you had to do is not be lazy (NFL scouts) and do the homework and Andy Reid and the Chiefs were really the only ones who did.

This brings me back to Daniels and why I like him so much I see how he leads men for 5 years now, not to mention which correlates with Tom’s chart above he doesn’t do stupid sh*t with the ball when things go wrong just like Burrow he takes the sack doesn’t turn the ball over and lives to play another down knowing he can make a big play to get that back.  

Thats what is so special about Burrow and the other greats they don’t get rattled by this sh*t, move on to the next play which keeps your team in the game as long as you do have some big plays in you like Burrow has shown he can do.  Yes having a Chase Mixon and Higgins helps, but the Jets have Wilson Hall and hopefully a Higgins or someone comparable going forward if they did get Daniels (I know pipe dream because we are all in on Rodgers which is stupid, IMO you can be both all in this year on Rodgers and trade up and get Daniels).

Caleb Williams is a bitch, selfish and to me has shown he won’t be able to handle the adversity in the NFL just my read.

Maye I have not done enough to have a real strong opinion and it’s not his physical tools everyone knows he has the physical tools to play in the NFL.  Gotta find out more about the man inside and I haven’t looked into that yet personally.

I can agree with you and am so mad that the Jets never seem to get that. Does not matter who the GM is.  I like Daniels and JJ and to be honest there is something about JJ I like more.  Daniels as not shown me he can through the short and intermediate routes and process quickly.  I think JJ can even though he like Daniels didnt get to show it enough.  Both are mobile which I think is not a requirement in todays league.