Bowers downfield highlights plus a couple handoffs

[slats]

Edited the topic to describe the video properly. A video of Bowers’ targets would presumably include the incompletions and whatnot, too. That was the video I was hoping to see. The absolutely fantastic as well as the misses. That’s how you get a picture of a player, not from just his highlights. 

[thebuzzardman]

What if Bowers is above average for some other team but the WR the Jets take the next Stephen Hill? Discuss

[Barton]

8 hours ago, BurntDice said:

No. The reason they are paid less is because they have less VALUE. what they are paid = their value.
 

The difference between a serviceable TE and a great one is not that far off. The best TEs get 1k yards and 6 tds (Kittle). 
 

the best WRs get 1750 yards and 13tds (Hill). That’s almost twice the production. Do you see how this is more VALUABLE? 

Bingo. I’m ok with Bowers at 10 but I’d rather trade up for 1 of the top 3 receivers. 

[Bobby816]

50 minutes ago, BurntDice said:

How about 2022 with 847? That’s what I call ELITE!!

Just 847? Once again you fail to do your research and see that he missed 2 games that year. So very likely he'd be a 1k TE. You also are taking out that he isn't in a passing offense. But of course you're doing that, bc that doesn't fit your narrative. I also like that you stopped to only look at 2022 and didnt want to include 2021 when he did play a fll season and had nearlt 1,400yds and 9 TDs. But once again that wouldnt fit your narrative so you'll leave that out.

Based on your logic though isn't Garrett Wilson trash then? I mean he's barely clearing 1,000 yds as a such superior stats position and barely even catches TDs.

Or maybe, just maybe your BIG TIME reaching for excuses?

At this stage your A LOT better off just saying you don't want a TE. Bc the road you've taken that TEs aren't good and no TE is worth a top pick isn't being justified.

Several people have shown you that all the successful teams recently have had great TE play. Where those guys were drafted does not matter. In redraft situations they'd absolutely be top 10 picks in there drafts. Every single position has value in mid and late rounds. Singling out TE is idiotic.

[BurntDice]

7 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

Just 847? Once again you fail to do your research and see that he missed 2 games that year. So very likely he'd be a 1k TE. You also are taking out that he isn't in a passing offense. But of course you're doing that, bc that doesn't fit your narrative. I also like that you stopped to only look at 2022 and didnt want to include 2021 when he did play a fll season and had nearlt 1,400yds and 9 TDs. But once again that wouldnt fit your narrative so you'll leave that out.

Based on your logic though isn't Garrett Wilson trash then? I mean he's barely clearing 1,000 yds as a such superior stats position and barely even catches TDs.

Or maybe, just maybe your BIG TIME reaching for excuses?

At this stage your A LOT better off just saying you don't want a TE. Bc the road you've taken that TEs aren't good and no TE is worth a top pick isn't being justified.

Several people have shown you that all the successful teams recently have had great TE play. Where those guys were drafted does not matter. In redraft situations they'd absolutely be top 10 picks in there drafts. Every single position has value in mid and late rounds. Singling out TE is idiotic.

The main thing the great teams have in common are great QBs. Those guys make everyone around them better including TEs. So GW would have been the best TE stat wise in the league this year with his number and he’s only like #20 as far as WRs go. This is saying something. 
 

Nabers will dominate Bowers this year in production. There isn’t a question in my mind about that regardless of who the qbs are 

 

you are also proving the point that Andrews had 1 elite year, which was comparable to the great WRs in his entire career. WRs are much more consistent production wise 

[TuscanyTile2]

I'm agnostic on Bowers but I will say that the comparison is not just "Bowers vs WR we could get at #10 in the draft". 

It's also (though certainly not only):

What would be a better overall unit to put on the field?:

1) GW + MW + Bowers

2) GW + Drafted WR +Conklin

 

[slats]

5 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'm agnostic on Bowers but I will say that the comparison is not just "Bowers vs WR we could get at #10 in the draft". 

It's also (though certainly not only):

What would be a better overall unit to put on the field?:

1) GW + MW + Bowers

2) GW + Drafted WR +Conklin

 

How about GW + MW + AL/XG + Bowers vs. GW + MW + Drafted WR + Conklin? 

[Bobby816]

6 minutes ago, BurntDice said:

The main thing the great teams have in common are great QBs. Those guys make everyone around them better including TEs. So GW would have been the best TE stat wise in the league this year with his number and he’s only like #20 as far as WRs go. This is saying something. 
 

Nabers will dominate Bowers this year in production. There isn’t a question in my mind about that regardless of who the qbs are 

 

you are also proving the point that Andrews had 1 elite year, which was comparable to the great WRs in his entire career. WRs are much more consistent production wise 

You are failing to realize how stupid your debate is.

Quinnen Williams must be a waste bc he's a DT and DEs get more sack numbers. So based on your logic, why draft DTs high bc DEs get the sack numbers?

Once again see how stupid that sounds?

 

No one is sitting here saying Bowers will put up top 5 WR type numbers.

For whatever reason you've creative this story that if he doesn't put up top WR numbers he's a wasted pick.

You do relaize he offers lots of other ways a WR doesnt to help a team. How valuable is Nabers in the run game or protecting a QB? He has 0 value there.

 

This isn't me saying Nabers isnt good. I just find it stupid that your argument is comparing him to what you think the top WRs will do.

 

Side note to this... If Nabers goes to NYG, , you're lovely WR stats you think he'll put up wont happen.

[TuscanyTile2]

2 minutes ago, slats said:

How about GW + MW + AL/XG + Bowers vs. GW + MW + Drafted WR + Conklin? 

Yes, all of those types of possibilities.  My bad for not saying "etc" or whatevs.

[slats]

Just now, TuscanyTile2 said:

Yes, all of those types of possibilities.  My bad for not saying "etc" or whatevs.

Just saying that 11 personnel is base personnel in the NFL these days. Now you can argue 12 personnel vs. 11 if you add Bowers to the mix, too, but then you’re replacing the Lazard/Gipson slot platoon with Bowers (as a lot of folks here are) and I would tend to doubt that that would be dramatically more productive- if at all. 
 
Bowers needs to be close to the hype in reality to make it work. I say “close to,” because he’ll never reach the hype heights that @Gastineau Lives is laying down. 

[slats]

8 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

Side note to this... If Nabers goes to NYG, , you're lovely WR stats you think he'll put up wont happen.

Garrett Wilson has opened his career with back-to-back 1000 yard seasons with maybe the worst QB in the league throwing to him. A little different than the QB play Kelce, Kittle, and Kincaid have enjoyed. 

[Gastineau Lives]

47 minutes ago, slats said:

How about GW + MW + AL/XG + Bowers vs. GW + MW + Drafted WR + Conklin? 

How about 2x(5GW)-AL+Drafted WR=7Y+Bowers-AL+6Conklin(3GW) 

I got her number!

How do you like THEM apples?

My boy is wicked smaht 

[Bobby816]

3 minutes ago, slats said:

Garrett Wilson has opened his career with back-to-back 1000 yard seasons with maybe the worst QB in the league throwing to him. A little different than the QB play Kelce, Kittle, and Kincaid have enjoyed. 

Bowers if drafted by us would be starting his career with Rodgers throwing to him. A great way to grooming and start your career.

 

But according to @BurntDicehaving 1k yards for a WR is easy. Which I brought up to him already. That based on his logic... GW isn't good. Bc his stance is WR is vastly more valuable bc they put up more stats than TEs.

[Gastineau Lives]

11 minutes ago, slats said:

Just saying that 11 personnel is base personnel in the NFL these days. Now you can argue 12 personnel vs. 11 if you add Bowers to the mix, too, but then you’re replacing the Lazard/Gipson slot platoon with Bowers (as a lot of folks here are) and I would tend to doubt that that would be dramatically more productive- if at all. 
 
Bowers needs to be close to the hype in reality to make it work. I say “close to,” because he’ll never reach the hype heights that @Gastineau Lives is laying down. 

It’s not just my hype. I didn’t bake the kid. But I think when you do get a chance to take this kind of swing you do because the rewards are great. You roll the burnt dice when you get the chance.  It’s the draft.
 

If you want to disagree about him specifically, fine. If you want to disagree about the value of the tight end position that’s fine too. We’ve hit an impasse.

[The Crusher]

45 minutes ago, slats said:

Edited the topic to describe the video properly. A video of Bowers’ targets would presumably include the incompletions and whatnot, too. That was the video I was hoping to see. The absolutely fantastic as well as the misses. That’s how you get a picture of a player, not from just his highlights. 

If you watch it on the small screen from the phone it looks like a Travis Kelsey highlight video. Kinda same jersey. Taylor is so hot right now. 

[TheAustrian]

14 minutes ago, slats said:

Garrett Wilson has opened his career with back-to-back 1000 yard seasons with maybe the worst QB in the league throwing to him. A little different than the QB play Kelce, Kittle, and Kincaid have enjoyed. 

GW was our only legit target - except for Kelce, who lost a step this season, every other qb had other good options

[Gastineau Lives]

7 hours ago, BurntDice said:

RBs don’t get paid much so that’s expected. 
 

I’ll bet you that nabers has more yards/tds than bowers year 1 barring serious injury to either one.  You should be pretty confident in this right? 

Have you not read any of my work? Not one single word? I’ve been accepted in the great salons of Paris, dined with royalty and slept with the worlds most beautiful women all due to my work…in…this… thread, yet you seem to have read none of it. 
 

I throw up my hands in despair!

[slats]

17 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

It’s not just my hype. I didn’t bake the kid. But I think when you do get a chance to take this kind of swing you do because the rewards are great. You roll the burnt dice when you get the chance.  It’s the draft.
 

If you want to disagree about him specifically, fine. If you want to disagree about the value of the tight end position that’s fine too. We’ve hit an impasse.

My entire argument has been about positional value, and the idea that I do not believe that Joe Douglas will pull the trigger on a TE this high specifically because there is absolutely no margin for error when drafting a low value position in the top 10, and JD is quite possibly drafting for his job next week. 
 
I will tell you, too, that I believe that the TE position is probably valued unfairly low. Safety and RB are low valued because of the abundance of quality replacement level players for them every year. They are generally not the top athletes/football players at their size, those guys become WRs and CBs. RB has the additional issue of presumably being washed up by age 30, if not sooner. A complete TE has a ton of value but, to me, a complete TE is a guy who’s an extra OL when needed as well as a 1000 yard threat as a receiver. I’m not sure Bowers is that. I don’t think a 240lb slot receiver is worth the tenth pick in the draft, either. 

[Gastineau Lives]

3 minutes ago, slats said:

My entire argument has been about positional value, and the idea that I do not believe that Joe Douglas will pull the trigger on a TE this high specifically because there is absolutely no margin for error when drafting a low value position in the top 10, and JD is quite possibly drafting for his job next week. 
 
I will tell you, too, that I believe that the TE position is probably valued unfairly low. Safety and RB are low valued because of the abundance of quality replacement level players for them every year. They are generally not the top athletes/football players at their size, those guys become WRs and CBS. RB has the additional issue of presumably being washed up by age 30, if not sooner. A complete TE has a ton of value but, to me, a complete TE is a guy who’s an extra OL when needed as well as a 1000 yard threat as a receiver. I’m not sure Bowers is that. I don’t think a 240lb slot receiver is worth the tenth pick in the draft, either. 

That’s the whole thing, Slats. He’s more than a big slot receiver. He’s actually become a very good blocker. Also, at his frame, is it a stretch to see him adding ten lbs and not losing athleticism? Kittle started his college career at 210 lbs. He’s now 250. 
 

He’s a high character kid with insane work ethic. He’ll do whatever it takes to become better at the things he’s not already awesome at. I like taking chances on those players.

[Claymation]

38 minutes ago, slats said:

How about GW + MW + AL/XG + Bowers vs. GW + MW + Drafted WR + Conklin? 

What's stopping them from drafting a WR in the 3rd?

This is, by all accounts, a deep draft for WR. guys like Worthy & Walker should be there in the 3rd if the Jets want to add another weapon.

[BurntDice]

42 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

You are failing to realize how stupid your debate is.

Quinnen Williams must be a waste bc he's a DT and DEs get more sack numbers. So based on your logic, why draft DTs high bc DEs get the sack numbers?

Once again see how stupid that sounds?

 

No one is sitting here saying Bowers will put up top 5 WR type numbers.

For whatever reason you've creative this story that if he doesn't put up top WR numbers he's a wasted pick.

You do relaize he offers lots of other ways a WR doesnt to help a team. How valuable is Nabers in the run game or protecting a QB? He has 0 value there.

 

This isn't me saying Nabers isnt good. I just find it stupid that your argument is comparing him to what you think the top WRs will do.

 

Side note to this... If Nabers goes to NYG, , you're lovely WR stats you think he'll put up wont happen.

You are talking in extremes. Did I ever say TEs are a waste or that non premium positions are a waste? No I did not. Check back. You being upset is clouding your judgment. 

[BurntDice]

29 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

Bowers if drafted by us would be starting his career with Rodgers throwing to him. A great way to grooming and start your career.

 

But according to @BurntDicehaving 1k yards for a WR is easy. Which I brought up to him already. That based on his logic... GW isn't good. Bc his stance is WR is vastly more valuable bc they put up more stats than TEs.

My “stance” is not that WR are more valuable than TEs because they have more production. That’s just a fact. 

[slats]

4 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

That’s the whole thing, Slats. He’s more than a big slot receiver. He’s actually become a very good blocker. Also, at his frame, is it a stretch to see him adding ten lbs and not losing athleticism? Kittle started his college career at 210 lbs. He’s now 250. 
 

He’s a high character kid with insane work ethic. He’ll do whatever it takes to become better at the things he’s not already awesome at. I like taking chances on those players.

Like you said, we’re at an impasse. If Bowers is the pick, I’ll get behind it and hope he’s almost everything you think he might become. But no matter how wonderful and hardworking a human being he is, he’s never gonna be 6’6”-265. 

1 minute ago, Claymation said:

What's stopping them from drafting a WR in the 3rd?

This is, by all accounts, a deep draft for WR. guys like Worthy & Walker should be there in the 3rd if the Jets want to add another weapon.

What’s to stop them from drafting a TE in the third round? Never mind, I’ll answer that: TE isn’t really a need on this team. WR, otoh, is. If one of the top three is there at #10, the team needs to pounce, imho. Another need is OL, a position Joe Douglas is clearly unafraid to draft high. If all the WRs are gone, that’s the direction I’d expect him to take. 

[Gastineau Lives]

5 minutes ago, BurntDice said:

My “stance” is not that WR are more valuable than TEs because they have more production. That’s just a fact. 

Yet three of the final four teams in the conference championships managed to sneak into those spots with either 0 or 1 of those players. 

[BurntDice]

2 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Yet three of the final four teams in the conference championships managed to sneak into those spots with either 0 or 1 of those players. 

And? None of them were better than the 24th best WR. You can also say they all had good/great QBs. Coincidences happen 

[Augustiniak]

6 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Yet three of the final four teams in the conference championships managed to sneak into those spots with either 0 or 1 of those players. 

Starts with the qbs and OL, and having multiple weapons.  If ZW is the qb and they draft bowers it does nothing. 

[Gastineau Lives]

12 minutes ago, slats said:

Like you said, we’re at an impasse. If Bowers is the pick, I’ll get behind it and hope he’s almost everything you think he might become. But no matter how wonderful and hardworking a human being he is, he’s never gonna be 6’6”-265. 

What’s to stop them from drafting a TE in the third round? Never mind, I’ll answer that: TE isn’t really a need on this team. WR, otoh, is. If one of the top three is there at #10, the team needs to pounce, imho. Another need is OL, a position Joe Douglas is clearly unafraid to draft high. If all the WRs are gone, that’s the direction I’d expect him to take. 

The beauty part is that he doesn’t have to be Frankenstein. No one is. 

[Gastineau Lives]

3 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Starts with the qbs and OL, and having multiple weapons.  If ZW is the qb and they draft bowers it does nothing. 

I don’t even know how this is a response to what I said.

[The Crusher]

4 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Starts with the qbs and OL, and having multiple weapons.  If ZW is the qb and they draft bowers it does nothing. 

Unless the dude could play QB too. Looks pretty versatile. 

[Gastineau Lives]

11 minutes ago, BurntDice said:

And? None of them were better than the 24th best WR. You can also say they all had good/great QBs. Coincidences happen 

Ok so you don’t need the valuable of valuables just a great QB got it

[Augustiniak]

38 minutes ago, slats said:

My entire argument has been about positional value, and the idea that I do not believe that Joe Douglas will pull the trigger on a TE this high specifically because there is absolutely no margin for error when drafting a low value position in the top 10, and JD is quite possibly drafting for his job next week. 
 
I will tell you, too, that I believe that the TE position is probably valued unfairly low. Safety and RB are low valued because of the abundance of quality replacement level players for them every year. They are generally not the top athletes/football players at their size, those guys become WRs and CBs. RB has the additional issue of presumably being washed up by age 30, if not sooner. A complete TE has a ton of value but, to me, a complete TE is a guy who’s an extra OL when needed as well as a 1000 yard threat as a receiver. I’m not sure Bowers is that. I don’t think a 240lb slot receiver is worth the tenth pick in the draft, either. 

The 2 things douglas is criticized for the most are zach wilson and the state of the OL.  He gets a 1 yr pass on rodgers b/c of the fluke injury, but now, if he doesn’t fix the OL enough, he’s gone.  He was brought here specifically b/c he could do this one thing.  If he takes a TE and then a tackle is injured and the season falters, that’s it for him.  He’s got a layup with an OT, take fuaga, it vastly improves the run game and rodgers needs that as much as bowers.  Also think they could trade back a few spots and still pick up a good OT, and then target a wr day 2 who can also contribute. I’ve actually seen mocks where the chargers take alt and Tenn takes fuaga, but with the chargers having lost their wrs, they seem poised to take one.  Douglas just can’t mess up this draft, take the OT and move on

[Gastineau Lives]

5 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

The 2 things douglas is criticized for the most are zach wilson and the state of the OL.  He gets a 1 yr pass on rodgers b/c of the fluke injury, but now, if he doesn’t fix the OL enough, he’s gone.  He was brought here specifically b/c he could do this one thing.  If he takes a TE and then a tackle is injured and the season falters, that’s it for him.  He’s got a layup with an OT, take fuaga, it vastly improves the run game and rodgers needs that as much as bowers.  Also think they could trade back a few spots and still pick up a good OT, and then target a wr day 2 who can also contribute. I’ve actually seen mocks where the chargers take alt and Tenn takes fuaga, but with the chargers having lost their wrs, they seem poised to take one.  Douglas just can’t mess up this draft, take the OT and move on

There’s no way he drafts Fuaga to start ahead of Morgan Moses. 

[slats]

7 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

The beauty part is that he doesn’t have to be Frankenstein. No one is. 

Dude, your Bowers’ comps are exclusively the best players to ever play the position. If Bowers is merely a top ten TE, last year that would be Kincaid and his 673 yards and 2 TDs, and that’s tough to justify at the end of the round let alone top ten. 
 
Conversely, if the Jets draft a WR who barely makes the top 20 at his position, that’s DeVonta Smith and 1066 yards and 7 TDs. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Gastineau Lives said:

There’s no way he drafts Fuaga to start ahead of Morgan Moses. 

Disagree and we’ll see.  

[Augustiniak]

Just now, slats said:

Dude, your Bowers’ comps are exclusively the best players to ever play the position. If Bowers is merely a top ten TE, last year that would be Kincaid and his 673 yards and 2 TDs, and that’s tough to justify at the end of the round let alone top ten. 
 
Conversely, if the Jets draft a WR who barely makes the top 20 at his position, that’s DeVonta Smith and 1066 yards and 7 TDs. 

And the jets are looking at guys like franklin and Roman wilson who can do this.