#27TheDominator Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 3 minutes ago, JKlecko said: 3 minutes ago, JKlecko said: Having worked for Ozzie Smith with the Ravens and Howie Roseman with the Eagles, JD should have had a better understanding of what a rookie QB needs. Heck anyone working in the NFL should have a better understanding of these things than fans do, but often, the fans know more than those in the NFL do. I don't know if it's arrogance, or they think they're different, or they have blinders on and can't see the mistakes that others have made, or what. Noted QB whisperer: Do you realize how insane your stance is? You have literally said that Douglas is the best GM we have had in 30-40 years. Fire him! You literally said that. You want him to know how to develop QBs? Like Ozzie (Newsome) and Howie Rosman? Maybe you should check how those guys have done with QBs. Kyle Boller says hello. Howie Roseman was a literal genius for his handling of Carson Wentz? He gets huge bonus points for Hurts in the 2nd but they seem in danger of having the wheels fall off again. Everybody misses and even when they don't there are a million factors that all have to go your way. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKlecko Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 7 hours ago, AL047 said: See the problem is the Jets don't groom QBs at all, they want to hit it big with Wilson, Darnold, and Smith. These QBs were not ready to take over as QB, they needed to sit and learn the playbook and read defenses. But they also have an owner that only cares about selling PSLs and filling the stadium week to week. Owner Woody Johnson is mostly the problem because he meddles too much in the GMs and head coaches' business of who comes in and who should start. Will things change? I don't think so, unless an experienced winning head coach is given the power to hire this organizations next GM and has the complete power of selecting the players that he wants including QB. But historically, speaking Johnson last successful head coach that came with the team when he bought it was Bill Parcells. Since then, he has only hired first time head coaches with the only experience as an OC and a DC. The same with GMs Tannenbaum was a capologist who ran this team to the ground when Rex Ryan came in as head coach. After Tannenbaum was Idzik another capologist who had no business trying to run this team; Maccagnan was a player personnel guy but with no GM experience who made too many questionable decisions; Then came Joe Douglas also a player personnel guy with no experience as a GM, who rebuilt this team. This organization next QB should be on the bench holding the clipboard for the next 2- or 3-years learning. He should not be starting in his first year and if he plays it should be for mop up duty nothing else until he is fully ready. A good example was Chad Pennington who was drafted in the first round and did not start until his 4th year when he took over for Vinny Testaverde. I totally agree with your first paragraphy, but totally disagree with your second paragraph. To begin with, experienced winning HCs don't become available, so how is Woody going to hire one of them? Andy Reid and Bill Parcells are the only two I can think of over the last 30 years. The usual choices are a first-time HC wannabes and failed, losing HCs. I generally don't think it works when a HC hires the GM. That's got it backwards. IMO what the Jets need to do is hire an experienced football man to run the team as VP of Football Operations with Woody keeping his mouth shut and not meddling (which I don't think will ever happen). The VP of Football Operations hires the GM, and the GM hires the CS with the approval of the VP of Football Operations. Then one has a chance to hire quality individuals, and achieve some success and maintain stability and continuity. JD had initially gotten Woody to back off and let JD make all the decisions, but then when JD screwed the pooch on Zach's handling and then had some bad drafts and terrible FA signings, Woody re-inserted himself into the mix, and least as far as we know. Woody could have been meddling all along. If I were JD, I would have told Woody that I would only take the job as long as he didn't meddle. If he meddled or tried to meddle, I'd walk. With his background JD could have gotten another job in a NY minute, but not now. You are incorrect in terms of Parcells being the only experienced former HC. Adam Gase was another former HC, although you probably just tried to block that out and who can blame you? Again, however, experienced winning coaches just aren't usually available to hire and neither are quality, experienced GMs. You're advocating hiring something that basically doesn't exist. The only options are re-treads who have failed with at least one previous team, and sometimes two or more or former DCs/OCs, and the Jets with the exception of Gase have hired only former DCs since Richie Kotite, and that in an offensive league. They're still trying to win with defense and 3 yards and a cloud of dust. I agree that the next QB should sit for 2-3 years, but I don't know that that will happen. For one thing, even though Rodgers has talked about playing 2-3 more seasons, I'll believe that happens when it happens. For another, if JD and Saleh are fired following this season, the new regime will undoubtedly want to draft their own QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doitny Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 8 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said: Getting a qb isn’t luck, you can get lucky, but it’s more about having a regime who knows what they are looking at and what to do with it. this is a interesting question.. but after some research i think it is all luck. 2023 its a little early for these guys but.... Bryce Young Carolina: Frank Riech very experienced. so far a bust. CJ Stroud Houston: 1st time HC, OC. so far a hit. 2022 Kenny Pickett Pittsburgh: HOF HC...Bust 2021 Trevor Lawerence Jax: Legendary College HC. so far a hit. Zach Wilson Jets: 1st time HC, OC. BUST Trey Lance SF: Shannahan consider one of the best HCs...BUST. but then picks Purdy with the last pick in the draft. Justin Fields Chicago: Nagy 1st time HC in his 4th year. BUST Mac Jones NE: HOF HC ....BUST 2020 Joe Burrow Cin: 1st time HC who won 2 games the year before. HIT Tua Miami: Flores 1st time HC HIT Justin Herbert LAC: Anthony Lynn 1st time HC: HIT Jordon Love GB: Mike Lafluer 1st time HC. HIT i could go on and on but i think this is a good sample size . so did 2 HOF HCs (Tomlin and Belichick) have no plan? what kind of plan did Shannahan have when he traded the world for Lance? i got to lean on the side of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKlecko Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 4 hours ago, peebag said: Yes but that's how it usually falls- bad team gets high draft pick with new coaching staff. There's not a lot of teams that have a vet qb that can afford to draft a qb to sit a year or 2 They can afford it. If they're going to lose with a rookie QB starting, they could just as easily lose with a journeyman vet. The big difference is that by letting the rookie sit and have time to fix his flaws and adjust to the NFL, while the build the team around him over the next year or two, it gives him a much better chance to succeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 35 minutes ago, JKlecko said: If it's on the player to figure it out himself, why even have a CS? Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. The levels of coaching these players get is all over the place, and many high school and collegiate coaches aren't worried about whether a player who plays for them will play in the NFL, they just want to win games to make them look good, so if a player with a lot of raw athletic ability give him the best chance to win, he's going to play that kid rather than sitting him so he can fix his fundamentals or learn how to do things the right way. NFL coaches should be the best in the world. They should know how to fix technique/fundamentals issues and get players ready to play at the highest level they can. It doesn't matter if Zach wanted to sit or not. It should have been what was best for him and best for the team in the long run. By throwing him out there day one with severely flawed footwork, and flawed understanding of how to play QB in the NFL, and in a scheme that wasn't designed around what he does well and to hide his flaws, coupled with a rookie HC, rookie OC, and rookie QB Coach, none of whom knew what in the the hell they were doing, the Jets gave him no chance to succeed. What didn’t the Jets coaches do? He had his first one fired and the Jets acquiesced and hired his personal coach. They gave him the job without any veterans pushing him. The Jets gave him how much guaranteed? Come on dude. Big boy pants. Is it on the Jets coaches to teach him how to build relationships with teammates? How often he should be at the facility? Once you’re in the pros is mostly on the player. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKlecko Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 4 minutes ago, doitny said: this is a interesting question.. but after some research i think it is all luck. 2023 its a little early for these guys but.... Bryce Young Carolina: Frank Riech very experienced. so far a bust. CJ Stroud Houston: 1st time HC, OC. so far a hit. 2022 Kenny Pickett Pittsburgh: HOF HC...Bust 2021 Trevor Lawerence Jax: Legendary College HC. so far a hit. Zach Wilson Jets: 1st time HC, OC. BUST Trey Lance SF: Shannahan consider one of the best HCs...BUST. but then picks Purdy with the last pick in the draft. Justin Fields Chicago: Nagy 1st time HC in his 4th year. BUST Mac Jones NE: HOF HC ....BUST 2020 Joe Burrow Cin: 1st time HC who won 2 games the year before. HIT Tua Miami: Flores 1st time HC HIT Justin Herbert LAC: Anthony Lynn 1st time HC: HIT Jordon Love GB: Mike Lafluer 1st time HC. HIT i could go on and on but i think this is a good sample size . so did 2 HOF HCs (Tomlin and Belichick) have no plan? what kind of plan did Shannahan have when he traded the world for Lance? i got to lean on the side of luck. I think that luck is definitely part of the equation. Both Parcells and Tomlin were former defensive coaches, and as great as they are/were as HCs, they didn't really have anything to do with developing a young QB. Did Belicheat have something to do with Brady's development? Maybe, maybe not? I always thought that Mac Jones was a terrible prospect. He doesn't have an NFL arm and is an arrogant jerk. He probably doesn't listen to coaching. I think that Joe Burrow would have been a success regardless of which team drafted him. Shanahan is the big puzzler to me. Former OC, knows the scheme inside and out but not only couldn't develop Lance, but couldn't develop Garoppalo any further either. There are a number of reasons why QBs fail in the NFL. Some have the physical talent, but not the mental/processing talent. Some have the mental/processing talent, but not the physical talent or size. Some are thrown to the wolves on bad teams before they are ready. Some try to get by on talent alone and don't work hard in the NFL because of a poor work ethic, success having gone to their heads, are only playing for the glory and money, and not the love of the game, or don't have a burning desire to be the best they can be. Some are not put in a position to succeed by poor coaching, or not playing in a scheme that's conducive to their talents. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKlecko Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 25 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said: Noted QB whisperer: Do you realize how insane your stance is? You have literally said that Douglas is the best GM we have had in 30-40 years. Fire him! You literally said that. You want him to know how to develop QBs? Like Ozzie (Newsome) and Howie Rosman? Maybe you should check how those guys have done with QBs. Kyle Boller says hello. Howie Roseman was a literal genius for his handling of Carson Wentz? He gets huge bonus points for Hurts in the 2nd but they seem in danger of having the wheels fall off again. Everybody misses and even when they don't there are a million factors that all have to go your way. My stance is not insane. Douglas is the best GM we've had in 30-40 years, but that doesn't mean he's that good, just that the Jets have had a long string of lousy GMs. He was going to fix this OL. He was going to build a sustainable winner. So far all he has achieved is spending more resources on the D and building a great D, but the offense is still not even an NFL level offense. He's been hampered by lots of injuries but also by his own moves and trying to go cheap in FA, and FAs not wanting to play for the Jets or in NY/NJ. Just because he has been the best of a sorry lot doesn't mean that he should be kept as GM when he has continued to fail to build a winner or even fix the OL. Hiring yet another DC in Saleh, who was going to hire a rookie OC and a rookie QB Coach, having no decent vet on hand, and throwing him to the wolves his rookie season when he had big fundamental issues that needed to be fixed was reason enough to fire JD. Ozzie Newsome never drafted a great QB and so far Howie Roseman hasn't either, but the thing they have done right is to hire quality HCs with quality CSs who gave the QBs they did have an opportunity to succeed, and in fact they were put in a position to succeed, but didn't have the talent or right make up to do so. To my recollection Ozzie never drafted high enough to get one of the top QB prospects. Roseman swung and missed on Wentz, but he may have his QB now in Hurts. Yes everyone misses, and it takes luck and a lot of other things to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 20 minutes ago, JKlecko said: My stance is not insane. Douglas is the best GM we've had in 30-40 years, but that doesn't mean he's that good, just that the Jets have had a long string of lousy GMs. He was going to fix this OL. He was going to build a sustainable winner. So far all he has achieved is spending more resources on the D and building a great D, but the offense is still not even an NFL level offense. He's been hampered by lots of injuries but also by his own moves and trying to go cheap in FA, and FAs not wanting to play for the Jets or in NY/NJ. Just because he has been the best of a sorry lot doesn't mean that he should be kept as GM when he has continued to fail to build a winner or even fix the OL. Hiring yet another DC in Saleh, who was going to hire a rookie OC and a rookie QB Coach, having no decent vet on hand, and throwing him to the wolves his rookie season when he had big fundamental issues that needed to be fixed was reason enough to fire JD. Ozzie Newsome never drafted a great QB and so far Howie Roseman hasn't either, but the thing they have done right is to hire quality HCs with quality CSs who gave the QBs they did have an opportunity to succeed, and in fact they were put in a position to succeed, but didn't have the talent or right make up to do so. To my recollection Ozzie never drafted high enough to get one of the top QB prospects. Roseman swung and missed on Wentz, but he may have his QB now in Hurts. Yes everyone misses, and it takes luck and a lot of other things to win. Not insane, just crazy? Newsome never drafted a great QB? Just a Super Bowl MVP and a guy who has been two time all-pro and two time MVP? Roseman was a miss with Wentz but won the super bowl with Went and another QB he drafted? Maybe you should ask yourself why a guy who has been playing football has so many fundamental flaws. I repeat that with the current rules you cannot get acclimated to the NFL in practice. He was supposed to be getting acclimated in 2021. He didn't. Fire everybody! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 55 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said: Not insane, just crazy? Newsome never drafted a great QB? Just a Super Bowl MVP and a guy who has been two time all-pro and two time MVP? Roseman was a miss with Wentz but won the super bowl with Went and another QB he drafted? Maybe you should ask yourself why a guy who has been playing football has so many fundamental flaws. I repeat that with the current rules you cannot get acclimated to the NFL in practice. He was supposed to be getting acclimated in 2021. He didn't. Fire everybody! Zach could have went back for his senior year too. He made the decision to go pro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peebag Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 3 hours ago, JKlecko said: They can afford it. If they're going to lose with a rookie QB starting, they could just as easily lose with a journeyman vet. The big difference is that by letting the rookie sit and have time to fix his flaws and adjust to the NFL, while the build the team around him over the next year or two, it gives him a much better chance to succeed. depends - if it's a 1st round qb - the clock is ticking with the rookie salary cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKlecko Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 52 minutes ago, peebag said: depends - if it's a 1st round qb - the clock is ticking with the rookie salary cap. Just because there's a ticking clock doesn't mean you should rush him onto the field when he isn't ready to play at a high level. Love sat for 2 or 3 years as did Rodgers and they had plenty of time to make their decision on whether to pick up the 5th year option. What good does it do to panic and throw him to the wolves when he isn't ready? More often than not, all that will accomplish is damaging or ruining the QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Flicking Frank Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 14 hours ago, doitny said: this is a interesting question.. but after some research i think it is all luck. 2023 its a little early for these guys but.... Bryce Young Carolina: Frank Riech very experienced. so far a bust. CJ Stroud Houston: 1st time HC, OC. so far a hit. 2022 Kenny Pickett Pittsburgh: HOF HC...Bust 2021 Trevor Lawerence Jax: Legendary College HC. so far a hit. Zach Wilson Jets: 1st time HC, OC. BUST Trey Lance SF: Shannahan consider one of the best HCs...BUST. but then picks Purdy with the last pick in the draft. Justin Fields Chicago: Nagy 1st time HC in his 4th year. BUST Mac Jones NE: HOF HC ....BUST 2020 Joe Burrow Cin: 1st time HC who won 2 games the year before. HIT Tua Miami: Flores 1st time HC HIT Justin Herbert LAC: Anthony Lynn 1st time HC: HIT Jordon Love GB: Mike Lafluer 1st time HC. HIT i could go on and on but i think this is a good sample size . so did 2 HOF HCs (Tomlin and Belichick) have no plan? what kind of plan did Shannahan have when he traded the world for Lance? i got to lean on the side of luck. theres a very common phrase, the harder I work the luckier I get.... Can you get lucky with a QB, of course, is that a strategy, hell no. I am unlucky is something losers tell themselves to feel better about not working hard enough, its really that simple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoeword Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 17 hours ago, doitny said: this is a interesting question.. but after some research i think it is all luck. 2023 its a little early for these guys but.... Bryce Young Carolina: Frank Riech very experienced. so far a bust. CJ Stroud Houston: 1st time HC, OC. so far a hit. 2022 Kenny Pickett Pittsburgh: HOF HC...Bust 2021 Trevor Lawerence Jax: Legendary College HC. so far a hit. Zach Wilson Jets: 1st time HC, OC. BUST Trey Lance SF: Shannahan consider one of the best HCs...BUST. but then picks Purdy with the last pick in the draft. Justin Fields Chicago: Nagy 1st time HC in his 4th year. BUST Mac Jones NE: HOF HC ....BUST 2020 Joe Burrow Cin: 1st time HC who won 2 games the year before. HIT Tua Miami: Flores 1st time HC HIT Justin Herbert LAC: Anthony Lynn 1st time HC: HIT Jordon Love GB: Mike Lafluer 1st time HC. HIT i could go on and on but i think this is a good sample size . so did 2 HOF HCs (Tomlin and Belichick) have no plan? what kind of plan did Shannahan have when he traded the world for Lance? i got to lean on the side of luck. That's what I was thinking... You can't know.. I remember when Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold and Allen all came out at the same time, Allen was like the Zach Wilson of that group... A great physical talent but very rough around the edges and an inaccurate arm... 90 percent of this board thought he would stink. Wilson probably had a better scouting report, because he WAS supposed to be accurate.. So Allen becomes the star player without sitting and learning from some veteran.... How did that happen? Sometimes it's just a matter of balls, and Allen has that.. His first year, he didn't have good instincts, but he ran all the time... We get Darnold and Wilson, they don't have the guts to run for first downs,so they can't make up for their deficiencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Rogers Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 56 minutes ago, roscoeword said: We get Darnold and Wilson, they don't have the guts to run for first downs,so they can't make up for their deficiencies. Darnold just wasn't much of an athlete either. Not to defend zach, but I think the Jets were also just clueless and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole trying to use him in their west coast, Rodgers type offense (similar to Russell wilson in Sean paytons offense, except russ is less of an idiot). Zach was fragile, but agile. He could run and he did sometimes, to great effect. I think our offense would have been MUCH better off if we tailored it to his skill set - mostly passes to the outside and deep Bombs, complimented by a power run game and play action. Similar to what russ had in seattle, or Josh Allen had last year. I don't know that it would have "fixed" Wilson but I know for sure that trying to get him to run the west coast, zone run scheme was idiotic. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing endlessly expecting different results. The Jets opened up the playbook that one time vs the chiefs and look where it led - Wilson's best performance in green and white. It was maddening to watch them try to go back to quick short passes and 2 second reads 2 weeks later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doitny Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 8 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said: theres a very common phrase, the harder I work the luckier I get.... Can you get lucky with a QB, of course, is that a strategy, hell no. I am unlucky is something losers tell themselves to feel better about not working hard enough, its really that simple so how do you explain Shannahan striking out with Lance someone he gave up a ton of draft picks for and then strike gold 6 rds later with Purdy? how does Belichick develop Brady and Jimmy G but strikes out with Mac Jones? is Tomlin a guy without a good system and a plan that he missed on Kenny Pickett? that kills your argument right there. HOF HCs who hit on some QBs and miss on others. those guys are not losers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doitny Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 5 hours ago, roscoeword said: That's what I was thinking... You can't know.. I remember when Mayfield, Rosen, Darnold and Allen all came out at the same time, Allen was like the Zach Wilson of that group... A great physical talent but very rough around the edges and an inaccurate arm... 90 percent of this board thought he would stink. Wilson probably had a better scouting report, because he WAS supposed to be accurate.. So Allen becomes the star player without sitting and learning from some veteran.... How did that happen? Sometimes it's just a matter of balls, and Allen has that.. His first year, he didn't have good instincts, but he ran all the time... We get Darnold and Wilson, they don't have the guts to run for first downs,so they can't make up for their deficiencies. not to mentioned that Daboll got credit for developing Allen yet cant get nothing from Daniel Jones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Flicking Frank Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 2 hours ago, doitny said: so how do you explain Shannahan striking out with Lance someone he gave up a ton of draft picks for and then strike gold 6 rds later with Purdy? how does Belichick develop Brady and Jimmy G but strikes out with Mac Jones? is Tomlin a guy without a good system and a plan that he missed on Kenny Pickett? that kills your argument right there. HOF HCs who hit on some QBs and miss on others. those guys are not losers. it doesnt kill my argument at all, like not even a tiny bit.... Purdy is a very mediocre QB, he is nothing special, he is playing behind an all world O line with incredible targets and shanahan runs a pretty creative offense. You put Purdy on most other teams and he is not even playable, he drops back, has his breakfast, makes a read, has lunch, and than throws to a wide open receiver. Or he hands off to the best RB in the game with the best line in the game. We don't know how Lance would ahve done becuase he wasnt good enough to beat out anyone else. They obviiously did a sh*t job scouting Lance BB got old, and his roster is nothing remotely close to what it was when Brady and Jimmy g were being developed Tomlin was handed a HOF QB, he did not scout not develop him. My guess is you hand a prime HOF QB to any coach they can look pretty good. Tomlin is a fine coach, but that doesnt mean he knows what hes doing with the QB position, in fact, it looks like he doesnt. Its not about luck. Losers are people who blame lack of success on lack of luck, and vice versa, give others less credit becuase they got "lucky" Luck is a factor in all walks of life, but wanting to get lucky is like having a retirement strategy of hitting the lottery, its stupid. You work hard and you make your own luck The jets havent been unlucky, they have incompetent regimes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 2 hours ago, doitny said: not to mentioned that Daboll got credit for developing Allen yet cant get nothing from Daniel Jones. The key to developing QBs is to keep drafting them until you hit on the total package. Zach’s makeup was more of a flag than his play and he should have been off the Jets board on that alone. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Thornburgh Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 50 minutes ago, Matt39 said: The key to developing QBs is to keep drafting them until you hit on the total package. Zach’s makeup was more of a flag than his play and he should have been off the Jets board on that alone. The key is to avoid drafting QBs who had one good season and got all their stats playing against Boise Community College 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 If there was a magic formula in drafting a QB every team would have a franchise QB- you try to take one with given talent and leader traits and hope it works out with proper support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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