Will Jets Finally Learn After Zach Wilson Flop?

[AFJF]

1 minute ago, Greenseed4 said:

Ooh ooh ooh, now do Trey Lance, Mac Jones, and Justin Fields.

Why are you pretending this is a conversation about Zach Wilson? It's about the history of Jets round 1 QBs over the past 15+ years.

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Yep -- a whole lotta sh*t piles. They must have all been horrible prospects out of college (insert sarcasm) .. bad luck i guess

Nothing to do with luck.  Bad talent evaluation.  You could rip gaping holes through every one of those guys on the list at the time they were drafted.  Who the "consensus" says is a "top prospect" is absolutely meaningless.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, AFJF said:

Why are you pretending this is a conversation about Zach Wilson? It's about the history of Jets round 1 QBs over the past 15+ years.

And your perspective on that history of prospects and why they failed is quite flawed.  Hence the criticism.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

17 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

It’s Woody. And there’s nothing we can do about that. He calls the shots. 

I only somewhat agree. Woody wants to be liked, and when the entire fan base turns on ZW instead of him, and his ways, we allow him to continue to do the same BS time and time again. If he got called out by the fan base with the same vigor as was directed at ZW, he may try something different. But he has no reason to, the ZW threads and posts are basically a little more vitriol versions of the Darnold posts, which were similar to the Geno and Sanchez posts. Mention any topic on JN and there is a 75% chance it turns into a ZW bashing thread. If the same thing was going on towards woody for hiring incompetent people, he may change. Hell of a lot better chance of him changing under that than when we keep blaming the symptom and allowing him to be Teflon Woody

[Jetsfan80]

Sam Darnold led all of FBS in turnovers his final year at USC, primarily due to fumbles.  Surprise, surprise:  He's fumbled 38 times in his NFL career over 56 starts.

Should we pin that one on Kyle Shanahan for not "fixing" his fumbling issues and leading him to a career ascension?

[Flea Flicking Frank]

4 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Why are you pretending this is a conversation about Zach Wilson? It's about the history of Jets round 1 QBs over the past 15+ years.

because our fan base is a bunch of emo dumb dumbs

[Jetsfan80]

Pete Carroll himself said Mark Sanchez should have stayed at USC another season.  He failed not just with the Jets but 4 stops post-Jets.  Damn you Brian Schottenheimer, damn you!!

[Jetsfan80]

Christian Hackenberg was a # 40 overall selection who was more like a 6th round grade around the league.  He never played an NFL snap.....for anyone. 

You suck, Chan Gailey/John Morton!!!!

[BroadwayRay]

The Jets QB busts didn't fail because they were made starters too early, or because they didn't get good enough coaching, etc. They bombed because they sucked.

The Jets' failed QB draft history is a result of bad luck and bad scouting. You can't do anything about the former, but you can do something about the latter. I doubt that they have, though.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Pete Carroll himself said Mark Sanchez should have stayed at USC another season.  He failed not just with the Jets but 4 stops post-Jets.  Damn you Brian Schottenheimer, damn you!!

Im going to try to have an intelligent conversation with you, for the umpteenth time, which I know you have no ability nor desire to have, but I am stubborn so here goes.......

Why do you believe in the separation of scouting and identifying the QB, and the development of said QB?

They are completely tied at the hip in a quality run organization. The GM is not evaluating a QB in a vacuum, they are doing so with the key help of the offensive staff. MLF was on board as being one of 2 people in the org who were over the top pushing for ZW. Than when he can't develop him, he gets a pass for that in your world?

I really struggle to understand the logic, unless your suggesting its 100% luck, in which case if its all luck, no QB draft pick with physical tools is a bad draft pick, you just need to hit the lottery, and Andy Reid must go to Church every sunday and jesus really likes him a lot.

Look at Josh Allen, many QB gurus including you said he was a sure bust draft pick, hell, you said you were so sure he would bust you would not post here anymore if he succeeded. Yet he has turned out to be a legit franchise QB. 

 

[AL047]

See the problem is the Jets don't groom QBs at all, they want to hit it big with Wilson, Darnold, and Smith. These QBs were not ready to take over as QB, they needed to sit and learn the playbook and read defenses. But they also have an owner that only cares about selling PSLs and filling the stadium week to week. Owner Woody Johnson is mostly the problem because he meddles too much in the GMs and head coaches' business of who comes in and who should start. 

Will things change? I don't think so, unless an experienced winning head coach is given the power to hire this organizations next GM and has the complete power of selecting the players that he wants including QB. But historically, speaking Johnson last successful head coach that came with the team when he bought it was Bill Parcells. Since then, he has only hired first time head coaches with the only experience as an OC and a DC. The same with GMs Tannenbaum was a capologist who ran this team to the ground when Rex Ryan came in as head coach. After Tannenbaum was Idzik another capologist who had no business trying to run this team; Maccagnan was a player personnel guy but with no GM experience who made too many questionable decisions; Then came Joe Douglas also a player personnel guy with no experience as a GM, who rebuilt this team. 

This organization next QB should be on the bench holding the clipboard for the next 2- or 3-years learning. He should not be starting in his first year and if he plays it should be for mop up duty nothing else until he is fully ready. A good example was Chad Pennington who was drafted in the first round and did not start until his 4th year when he took over for Vinny Testaverde. 

 

[Greenseed4]

13 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Why are you pretending this is a conversation about Zach Wilson? It's about the history of Jets round 1 QBs over the past 15+ years.

I disagree.  This isn’t a Jets issue. See the other examples in my post. Trey, Justin, Mac, and Zach are ALL on their second teams already.  
 

The conversation should be why only one rookie every two years has what it takes to play on Sundays.  

 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

28 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I think "learning their lesson" is what causes the ridiculous swings.  Going for Favree orPRodgers.  They didn't just draft young guys and play them out of the gate.  They did it with Wilson, but Clemens sat behind Pennington.  Geno was supposed to sit behind Sanchez.  Petty and Hackenberg had Fitzpatrick (and Geno).  Darnold had "Uncle Josh." 

You try to get a good QB.  There are different ways.  They made a big play for Cousins.  It made sense to have a learning year with Zach.  It worked for the D, but not Zach.  More importantly, he did not seem to respond well to anything they did and he was very extra.  We need an experienced coach - bring in Cavanaugh.  LaFleur needs to be on the sideline to hold his hand between drives - even though he was obviously more comfortable and called the plays better from the booth.  He had a good rapport with John Beck - the Jets hired him and brought him on.  You don't think this sh*t shows to the rest of the team?  Guys that are just grinding every day in practice and the weight room while Douchey Rich Boy is wearing a red jersey and getting every opportunity and still letting the team down? 

They failed.  They have failed before.  They will fail again.  People acted like the Pats were geniuses for Brady so much that every piece of sh*t they rolled through the board acted like they were going to be HOFers.  Newsflash, Mac Jones sucks.  The Pats drafted Brady, but they also drafted Jarrett Stidham.  The 49ers drafted Purdy, but that very draft they burned like 3 #1s on Trey Lance.  You keep trying until you hit.  Don't get all reactionary.  That is what gets us coaches like Gase.  Forget the wild pendulum swings and make incremental improvements.  And keep trying.

there was an interview that Brady did after the 2nd SB win that is no longer available anywhere that I can find. However, I remember it very clearly. He was asked in that interview how BB hlped his career and if he thought he would be what he is without BB. This was before TB's big ego got in the way, but to paraphrace, Brady said nobody would even know his name if it wasnt for BB. He explained how in the first 2 years he completely catered the offense to what Brady could do and stayed away from the things he struggled with, while continuing to work with him in practice on the things he struggled with until he could do them. He talked about how critical confidence was and how any time he made a bad pass, BB and the offensive staff had a play call designed, usually a screen, that would almost always go for 30-40 yards and was an easy play for him to make, so he never lost his confidence. 

Did Brady have a lot to do with what he became, absolutely, but according to Bradys own words, nobody would know his name of not for BB and the offensive staff he had early on

[since1975]

They did hire Greg Knapp, but he was killed like in some Omen movie.  Then, hey sit behind Rodgers and make his life hell.  4 plays later...   The kid was just bad juju.  They need to spread a ring of salt around 1JD and start over again.  Summer will be a little sweeter this year with the black cloud gone.  Been a fan since the end of Namath and the ZW experiment has caused me the most Jets anguish ever.  The dead weight has been lifted and it's a beautiful new day of possibilities.  Amen.

[Matt39]

28 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Im going to try to have an intelligent conversation with you, for the umpteenth time, which I know you have no ability nor desire to have, but I am stubborn so here goes.......

Why do you believe in the separation of scouting and identifying the QB, and the development of said QB?

They are completely tied at the hip in a quality run organization. The GM is not evaluating a QB in a vacuum, they are doing so with the key help of the offensive staff. MLF was on board as being one of 2 people in the org who were over the top pushing for ZW. Than when he can't develop him, he gets a pass for that in your world?

I really struggle to understand the logic, unless your suggesting its 100% luck, in which case if its all luck, no QB draft pick with physical tools is a bad draft pick, you just need to hit the lottery, and Andy Reid must go to Church every sunday and jesus really likes him a lot.

Look at Josh Allen, many QB gurus including you said he was a sure bust draft pick, hell, you said you were so sure he would bust you would not post here anymore if he succeeded. Yet he has turned out to be a legit franchise QB. 

 

Zach should have never been drafted and I think any interviewer worth his salt would have concluded the kid was not ready from maturity standpoint to move across the country and start day 1 in the NFL. Not going away for college and living on your own is a flag in itself.  I think Woody wanted him, though regardless 

[65 Toss Power Trap]

No, no they won't.

[#27TheDominator]

16 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Zach should have never been drafted and I think any interviewer worth his salt would have concluded the kid was not ready from maturity standpoint to move across the country and start day 1 in the NFL. Not going away for college and living on your own is a flag in itself.  I think Woody wanted him, though regardless 

That really is what I wonder.  How did he survive the interviews?  All the things i mentioned amount to coddling.  I get that you do whatever you can to help your boy, but c'mon.  The amount of things they did for him in year 1 was insane and it didn't work.  Was it pressure from his camp?  It's possible that he is okay in interviews and then his entourage, such as it is, brings a bunch of baggage that wasn't seen at the combine and pro day.

[Matt39]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

That really is what I wonder.  How did he survive the interviews?  All the things i mentioned amount to coddling.  I get that you do whatever you can to help your boy, but c'mon.  The amount of things they did for him in year 1 was insane and it didn't work.  Was it pressure from his camp?  It's possible that he is okay in interviews and then his entourage, such as it is, brings a bunch of baggage that wasn't seen at the combine and pro day.

I could be wrong but wasn’t everything virtual? There was plenty of digging they could have done with BYU. The family being too much was out there predraft. 

[faba]

Is it not unsual for teams to miss on their draft choices at QB in any round - the Jets are not alone there you need to get lucky and be competent in trying to make it work. Incompetence has been the Jets trademark

[Jetsfan80]

lol, Zach trade thread locked because....reasons?

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Dunnie said:

Yep -- a whole lotta sh*t piles. They must have all been horrible prospects out of college (insert sarcasm) .. bad luck i guess

If it was so easy to grade players, like we make it out to be ourselves (myself included), then there wouldn't be any busts drafted by anyone. The same team that drafted Purdy in round 7 also used 3 1st rounders on Trey Lance. The QB with the most SB rings (by far) was taken at the bottom of round 6. Rodgers was projected as high as #3 and dropped into the 20s - well after Alex Smith who was a bust himself for years - and he's the best pure passer I've ever seen. Turns out it's hard to predict, and harder still when you only get 1 pick, not a "rank them" where you get some credit for correctly liking most of the good ones with a stinker or two in there. 

Also the Jets - through multiple GMs - have just sucked at this. Like really, really suck at this. 

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Also the Jets - through multiple GMs - have just sucked at this. Like really, really suck at this. 

That's the key part for me.  People who don't understand how it works seem to think the NFL draft is pure luck, I.E. a crapshoot.  Not the case.  It's more like a game of poker.  Sure, a strong amount of luck is involved.  But there's also a reason why some of the same poker players tend to end up at the final table. 

Much the same way, there's a reason why Ozzie Newsome was so good at drafting overall while Mike Maccagnan was the worst at it - Ozzie didn't get "lucky" and Maccagnan wasn't "unlucky".  Ozzie knew how to work the table.  Maccagnan never did.  Ozzie hired strong people and understood how data can help inform your decisions.  Maccagnan never listened to his scouts and was as anti-analytics as any GM ever. 

And Woody Johnson has been the crux of all of the problems we've had because he's never been able to hire a quality GM, and no one with options ever wants to work for him.

Mel Kiper's "The Jets don't understand what the draft is all about" quote is one of the most accurate things he ever said.

[bitonti]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

lol, Zach trade thread locked because....reasons?

can the board not handle threads over 10 pages long? 

 

[T0mShane]

Absurd to lock the Zach thread @slats

[faba]

There are years off Zach sucking to get out of Jets fans system hah hah

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Absurd to lock the Zach thread @slats

What a baby tyrant he is.  

[Matt39]

12 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Absurd to lock the Zach thread @slats

A lot of continued coddling for a professional athlete 

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

A lot of continued coddling for a professional athlete 

Mr. PVO sure doesn't seem to like Zach threads despite supposedly not caring about him. 

[Jet_Engine1]

1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Im going to try to have an intelligent conversation with you, for the umpteenth time, which I know you have no ability nor desire to have, but I am stubborn so here goes.......

Why do you believe in the separation of scouting and identifying the QB, and the development of said QB?

They are completely tied at the hip in a quality run organization. The GM is not evaluating a QB in a vacuum, they are doing so with the key help of the offensive staff. MLF was on board as being one of 2 people in the org who were over the top pushing for ZW. Than when he can't develop him, he gets a pass for that in your world?

 

 

SO Buzzphrase... such Jargon! ACTION Language!!!

 

Thank you for your word salad, sir! Did ChatGPT write that for ya?

 

LOL

[slimjasi]

Narrator: The Jets would not learn 

[AFJF]

1 hour ago, Greenseed4 said:

I disagree.  This isn’t a Jets issue. See the other examples in my post. Trey, Justin, Mac, and Zach are ALL on their second teams already.  
 

The conversation should be why only one rookie every two years has what it takes to play on Sundays.  

 

How many of those teams have drafted as many first round (and top 10) QBs as the Jets in the past 15-20 years?

[Flea Flicking Frank]

16 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

SO Buzzphrase... such Jargon! ACTION Language!!!

 

Thank you for your word salad, sir! Did ChatGPT write that for ya?

 

LOL

this isnt that deep bud, english is my second language

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

Zach should have never been drafted and I think any interviewer worth his salt would have concluded the kid was not ready from maturity standpoint to move across the country and start day 1 in the NFL. Not going away for college and living on your own is a flag in itself.  I think Woody wanted him, though regardless 

Did woody want him, probably but who knows, it doesnt change the fact one iota that the real problem is the organization and not ZW. ZW is gone, the organization is still the same, all of you who hated ZW from day 1 and never wanted to draft him, scapegoated him while the real problem still 100% exists, so congrats on that.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

That's the key part for me.  People who don't understand how it works seem to think the NFL draft is pure luck, I.E. a crapshoot.  Not the case.  It's more like a game of poker.  Sure, a strong amount of luck is involved.  But there's also a reason why some of the same poker players tend to end up at the final table. 

Much the same way, there's a reason why Ozzie Newsome was so good at drafting overall while Mike Maccagnan was the worst at it - Ozzie didn't get "lucky" and Maccagnan wasn't "unlucky".  Ozzie knew how to work the table.  Maccagnan never did.  Ozzie hired strong people and understood how data can help inform your decisions.  Maccagnan never listened to his scouts and was as anti-analytics as any GM ever. 

And Woody Johnson has been the crux of all of the problems we've had because he's never been able to hire a quality GM, and no one with options ever wants to work for him.

Mel Kiper's "The Jets don't understand what the draft is all about" quote is one of the most accurate things he ever said.

Except that when Mel Kiper said it, it was in reference to reaching. It wasn't about drafting Lageman so much as drafting Lageman in a slot well above where he thought Lageman should've gone. I forget who Kiper favored, but it was a bust player who didn't nearly measure up to Lageman anyway. 

Ozzie Newsome was decidedly better at this than any Jets GMs has been (arguably a lot of middle schoolers would be as well). Ozzie also may have cost the Ravens another ring - or two - by handing the offense to his own Zach Wilson level QB in Kyle Boller (not unlike Tannenbaum giving the keys to a championship roster to rookie Mark Sanchez). 

Some look too much at character and not enough on skill, and you end up with picks like Schlegel the boar hunter. Some don't look enough and you end up with Elijah Moore and his shithead attitude. Some don't look enough at downside because they're enamored with the theoretical upside and you end up with Douglas picks like Zach & Becton. Sometimes you look too much at the floor and not enough at the ceiling, and even end up with a probowler/all-pro at a position that just doesn't matter that much even if he does (or not nearly enough to warrant such a pick) like Jamal Adams. Lastly, sometimes a GM's left himself a hole he's determined to fill with his first pick no matter which prospect falls to him, and the problems with that are self-evident.

In the end the above probably all point to the same flaw even if manifested in different ways, which is when a GM sees what he wants to see. 

It'll be interesting how Douglas handles this. We'll see tomorrow. 

[slimjasi]

2 hours ago, AFJF said:

 

Go Jets