Serious Franchise Direction question

[SouthernJet]

What is better? What would you rather have?

H) A HC/GM taking a team during a 5 year contract to 3 of 5 years in playoffs , but not advancing far and at end of 5 years the team is in a shambles..

or

E) A HC/GM taking a team during a 5 year contract to slow, steady progress as to where at the end of the 5 years the team is considered a perennial playoff team with infrastructure in place to replace pieces and no need to overhaul?

[url=http://www.seesheep.com/picts/5566.jpg]

[Scott Dierking]

The answer is obvious, but, the only problem is that you only know where you are going, after you have been there. if that makes any sense.

[bitonti]

as much as i have grown to hate Herman Edwards in the recent months it's tough to lay the current state of the Jets on his feet - also i would debate whether the team is truely in shambles.

no matter how good or bad the coach is the team has to get lucky with injuries - losing 2 starting caliber QBs in 5 minutes isn't necessarily a reflection of bad coaching

if eric loses Chad and Ramsey and Kellen in the span of 15 minutes is that his fault?

is terry bradway not replacing Jason Fabini really Herm's fault?

sometimes s--t just happens...

[SouthernJet]

as much as i have grown to hate Herman Edwards in the recent months it's tough to lay the current state of the Jets on his feet - also i would debate whether the team is truely in shambles.

no matter how good or bad the coach is the team has to get lucky with injuries - losing 2 starting caliber QBs in 5 minutes isn't necessarily a reflection of bad coaching

if eric loses Chad and Ramsey and Kellen in the span of 15 minutes is that his fault?

is terry bradway not replacing Jason Fabini really Herm's fault?

sometimes s--t just happens...

i said HC/GM,,,

and if Eric losesChad, Kellen etc we will go 2-16 instead of 4-12,, haha

[LionelRichie]

as much as i have grown to hate Herman Edwards in the recent months it's tough to lay the current state of the Jets on his feet - also i would debate whether the team is truely in shambles.

no matter how good or bad the coach is the team has to get lucky with injuries - losing 2 starting caliber QBs in 5 minutes isn't necessarily a reflection of bad coaching

if eric loses Chad and Ramsey and Kellen in the span of 15 minutes is that his fault?

is terry bradway not replacing Jason Fabini really Herm's fault?

sometimes s--t just happens...

in the immortal words of steve spurrier "hindsight is 50/50". you can't really blame TB or Herm for chad tearing his rotator cuff as soon as he signied a big $ deal.

[SeniorFlaJet]

Here's your problem with slow steady progression altho you don't

describe how that plays out.

Will the fans stand for that type of progression after 5 years without

calling for the coaches head.`

I'll tell you this. Herm may have turned out to be a lot of things but

after 46 years of being a jet fan I loved being involved in the playoffs

3 out of 5 years. True a lot of it was luck.

And I don't care what anyone says, I was at the Colts playoff win and

for the moment Herm could have ran for mayor and won.

What I'm saying is fans want a lot of instant gratification and although

many like what Mangini is doing and just maybe they will give him a

pass for this year but I will bet a few sheckels that the following year

there better be a lot of improvement or the nativeswill be very restless.

[BwanaZulia]

You have to be kidding me right?

You rather have someone build a team that MIGHT get to the playoffs in 5 years or someone who GETS you to the playoffs in 5 years?

Seriously, that is the dumbest question posed here yet.

There IS NO BUILDING FOR THE FUTURE.

As soon as you build it, it will go.

This NFL, with the high rate of injuries, with free agency, with every thing else is not going to allow for a team to build for a dominate run.

I rather be the Steelers than the Eagles.

BZ

[Sperm Edwards]

Herm never had to build anything here & there's no reason to believe he'd have been successful at it.

That being said, it depends on the definition of "slow" progress. If it takes 4 years to get them back to just a playoff berth, then they suck & were a big mistake to hire unless they win a superbowl in that 4th/5th year.

[bitonti]

i tend to not read too deeply into job of the head coach and am more focused on the GM/players situation

the players make the plays not the coaches

even Bellichek is such a damn genius... yeah when Tom Brady and Richard Seymour are on teh field it's a little easier

if Mangini wins a SB it will be because of playmakers not just the program he's building

everyone is building a program, there is no substitute for properly motivated talent

when Herm lost it wasn't always because of the players but key upgrades like Nugent over Brien and Brick over Fabini would have been nice say about 2004 instead of 2006.

[JetCane]

i tend to not read too deeply into job of the head coach and am more focused on the GM/players situation

the players make the plays not the coaches

even Bellichek is such a damn genius... yeah when Tom Brady and Richard Seymour are on teh field it's a little easier

if Mangini wins a SB it will be because of playmakers not just the program he's building

everyone is building a program, there is no substitute for properly motivated talent

when Herm lost it wasn't always because of the players but key upgrades like Nugent over Brien and Brick over Fabini would have been nice say about 2004 instead of 2006.

That's a great point bit.

One of the big BIG questions I have is whether there is really enough talent on the team to really be competitive. There is no doubt that everyone has been working hard, but we will have to see how they match up with other teams.

I think the coaching is important at this point; if the team is overmatched and does have some holes talent-wise, the coaches will have to scheme to overcome that.

[GREENLANTERN]

Bottom Line. If someone cant see then difference in HE & EM they are blind. HE got handed a playoff team with great talent that Bill Parcells built and drove it into the ground with easy going training camps and laid back practices. Dont agree with me? Then let me ask if we had such a great conditioning program under HE why did we have all the injuries last year? The team got soft under HE. It makes me sick that a good line of BS from a coach along with an owner who was new an inexperienced set the team in the direction they went after Groh left. Thank god that regime is done here!

As for EM I like what I see so far from him. There should be open competetion every year for these players to fight it out for there jobs. Mike Tannenbaum and Eric Mangini will bring home a winner! Why? Because hard work instead of a good line of BS will always prevail.

Bill Parcells, Bill Belichick, Eric Mangini are from the same mold. You have to be the players boss not there friend.

Sincerely Lantern

[BwanaZulia]

Did we go to the playoffs two year ago and win a big game on the road?

Did Herm get a team that went to the playoffs two years before?

Just wondering.

BZ

[GREENLANTERN]

Who built the team that went to the playoffs? Talent can take you only so far maybe if we had some coaching those years they would have done even better! Oh yeah and by the way during that regime we had the only head coach in the nfl who couldnt tell time! We had to hire someone to tell the head coach how to tell time ie Clock Management. Sincerely Lantern

[BwanaZulia]

Who built that team that we have now?

I can't wait to see all the responses in two years when we are in the playoffs and it is because of the greatness of Herm and what he did two years earlier. (ie Parcells -> Rich -> Herm).

You can slam Herm all you want, but you can't have it both ways.

BZ

[GREENLANTERN]

Who built that team that we have now?

I can't wait to see all the responses in two years when we are in the playoffs and it is because of the greatness of Herm and what he did two years earlier. (ie Parcells -> Rich -> Herm).

You can slam Herm all you want, but you can't have it both ways.

BZ

Actually the team that we have now is getting an enema from what the previous regime did! So the answer to who built the team we have now is Eric Mangini as once this year is done lets see how many hold overs from bad drafts and bad free agent signings are left from the HE era. I'm not slamming anyone I'm calling it like I saw it. What team were you watching??? Not the same one I was watching that is for sure.

[BwanaZulia]

Well, I contend that the team we have today is not as bad off as a lot of other do.

The team we have today had huge injuries last year that made it a 4-12 team. Show me a team in the NFL that could be competitive with no center, a 3rd (4th) string QB, a 3rd string RB, no tight end, etc etc.

They just don't exist.

So to me, the team we have today is hopefully a healthier version of the team in 2004 with some losses (Kevin, Abe, Curtis) and gains (D'brick, Mangold, Miller)

BZ

[Bugg]

I'm happy-overjoyed in fact-Edwards is gone. It's a shame he's embarked on ruining another franchise. No matter.

But more important-I like the direction Mangini and Tannbaum are going. it's hard slog and they've undertaken it with no illusions and zero BS. There will be bumps along the way, but generally the Jets are going in the right direction.

[SouthernJet]

You have to be kidding me right?

You rather have someone build a team that MIGHT get to the playoffs in 5 years or someone who GETS you to the playoffs in 5 years?

Seriously, that is the dumbest question posed here yet.

There IS NO BUILDING FOR THE FUTURE.

As soon as you build it, it will go.

This NFL, with the high rate of injuries, with free agency, with every thing else is not going to allow for a team to build for a dominate run.

I rather be the Steelers than the Eagles.

BZ

ithe implication was that the team would be continually in playoffs with super bowl runs every once in awhile,,i.e patriots,,

thats why i sadi perennial playoff contender..

[SouthernJet]

Who built that team that we have now?

I can't wait to see all the responses in two years when we are in the playoffs and it is because of the greatness of Herm and what he did two years earlier. (ie Parcells -> Rich -> Herm).

You can slam Herm all you want, but you can't have it both ways.

BZ

havent we unloaded a slew of bradway/herm drafted/aquired players since tangini took over???

this is hardly herms team anymore,,

[Scott Dierking]

I don't buy into this inherited talent stigma.

Was Parcells' team teh team Kotite built, thus he didn't deserve recognition of its achievemnts? Of course not.

Handley, Pettitbon and others have all failed miserably after being left a nice set of wheels. You are what you are in this league. You make it yourself and nothing is given to you.

[PFSIKH]

There IS NO BUILDING FOR THE FUTURE.

As soon as you build it, it will go.

This NFL, with the high rate of injuries, with free agency, with every thing else is not going to allow for a team to build for a dominate run.

I rather be the Steelers than the Eagles.

Um, ok...wait a minute.

The Patriots have prooven your first claim wrong. A team with a plan that sticks to it, can dominate. Do not pay good talent great talent money. That is why Tom and Richard got top dollar and Deoin has $300K in change in fines. Deoin is a good player. He has come up big in big games, but is he great? No.

It is not the Patriots way, but the Steelers that started this trend. They have probably lost more Pro Bowlers on defense then any two or three teams combined. Yet they still manage to turn out 9-12 wins seemingly every season.

The Eagles have also embraced this philosphy. Over the last decade, alot of talent has come and gone and for the most part they have been contenders.

If the guy buying the groceries wins mre then he loses, the team will be good. If he manages to find enough of those diamonds in the rough, his team has a chance to be special.

The salary cap does not have to kill your team. It only does when you let it. Getting away from your base philosphy is what hurts a team. The Patriots ponied up the money for their elite stars while other good players have left for pay days. The Steelers have done the same. I am sure in a few years, the Steelers will reward Big Ben with a new contract (one with a riding motercycle stipulation), because he is a difference maker.

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As far as Herm, and this goes for any coach, you are partially trapped by your inherited talent.

Kraft had enough trust in Belichick from previous talks, that he allowed him to gut an 8-8 team could probably gotten 8-10 wins for the next 3-5 years.

Did Herm have this? No way. He was a rookie HC. He had no coordinator or HC experience at any level. Given a fairly talented team that had some huge contracts tying up the salary cap. I am sure Hess gave him the, "I would like to win a Superbowl before I die speech."

Yes, there is plenty to bash Herm about from a game strategy point. However, he did guide a team with little cap wiggle room to maintain a certain level of success. It is not like he was Switzer guiding the Boyz. The Jets were not that talented and were old. Herm did ok. Not great, but ok.

[aec4]

What is better? What would you rather have?

H) A HC/GM taking a team during a 5 year contract to 3 of 5 years in playoffs , but not advancing far and at end of 5 years the team is in a shambles..

or

E) A HC/GM taking a team during a 5 year contract to slow, steady progress as to where at the end of the 5 years the team is considered a perennial playoff team with infrastructure in place to replace pieces and no need to overhaul?

[url=http://www.seesheep.com/picts/5566.jpg]

In the salary cap era, Option "E" is veryhard to obtain.

[SouthernJet]

Um, ok...wait a minute.

The Patriots have prooven your first claim wrong. A team with a plan that sticks to it, can dominate. Do not pay good talent great talent money. That is why Tom and Richard got top dollar and Deoin has $300K in change in fines. Deoin is a good player. He has come up big in big games, but is he great? No.

It is not the Patriots way, but the Steelers that started this trend. They have probably lost more Pro Bowlers on defense then any two or three teams combined. Yet they still manage to turn out 9-12 wins seemingly every season.

The Eagles have also embraced this philosphy. Over the last decade, alot of talent has come and gone and for the most part they have been contenders.

If the guy buying the groceries wins mre then he loses, the team will be good. If he manages to find enough of those diamonds in the rough, his team has a chance to be special.

The salary cap does not have to kill your team. It only does when you let it. Getting away from your base philosphy is what hurts a team. The Patriots ponied up the money for their elite stars while other good players have left for pay days. The Steelers have done the same. I am sure in a few years, the Steelers will reward Big Ben with a new contract (one with a riding motercycle stipulation), because he is a difference maker.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as Herm, and this goes for any coach, you are partially trapped by your inherited talent.

Kraft had enough trust in Belichick from previous talks, that he allowed him to gut an 8-8 team could probably gotten 8-10 wins for the next 3-5 years.

Did Herm have this? No way. He was a rookie HC. He had no coordinator or HC experience at any level. Given a fairly talented team that had some huge contracts tying up the salary cap. I am sure Hess gave him the, "I would like to win a Superbowl before I die speech."

Yes, there is plenty to bash Herm about from a game strategy point. However, he did guide a team with little cap wiggle room to maintain a certain level of success. It is not like he was Switzer guiding the Boyz. The Jets were not that talented and were old. Herm did ok. Not great, but ok.

agree on both,,,

option E is the way to go,, hopefully you make playoffs in year 3 of option e,,point is that you want to be in hunt every year,,as opposed to the mess Herm/Bradway left us...