Bench Vilma

[flgreen]

Vilma's too small for the 3-4 ILB. Period. We have no choice but to make do with him this year. But, we need to trade him in the off-season. D. Harris is going to be a rock for years to come!

I was thrilled when the Jets drafted Vilma, the guy has All Pro talent........

As a 4-3 MLB. In the 3-4 he is a major liability.

I was hoping the Jets would trade him this past offseason while he still had a good bit of value. After another bad season his value will be way down.

Vilma will be a FA after the 08 season. There is NO WAY he will be playing for the Jets the following season.

As I said he is an All Pro type player in the 4-3. Big money.

The Jets now have him playing Special teams, on the kick off team.

Trade him NOW while he still has some value.

[#27TheDominator]

IMO, this board vastly overrates Vilma's play in the 4-3. He is good to very good. Not very good to great. I question our ability to get a first for him. If I were a 4-3 GM I would not have made that trade. I still like Vilma and think he has value and if Harris were ready I'm sure he'd be getting playing time spelling Barton and Vilma. Since he isn't we can assume he's not ready yet.

As for the Jets being unable to bench/trade Vilma because of his playcalling ability it didn't stop them from ditching Kendall.

[serphnx]

I'd be happy with a high second or late first for Vilma actually. JAbe actually had more trade value and we didn't really get much better than that for him. Actually better yet, someone send us an NT or OL for Vilma and we're gold.

[GandWFan]

IMO, this board vastly overrates Vilma's play in the 4-3. He is good to very good. Not very good to great. I question our ability to get a first for him. If I were a 4-3 GM I would not have made that trade. I still like Vilma and think he has value and if Harris were ready I'm sure he'd be getting playing time spelling Barton and Vilma. Since he isn't we can assume he's not ready yet.

As for the Jets being unable to bench/trade Vilma because of his playcalling ability it didn't stop them from ditching Kendall.

Agreed... in 2004 he was good, with Jason Ferguson and D-Rob to protect him. After Ferguson went to Dallas, JV was exposed for the average player that he is without a dominant line in front of him. Special players make plays and elevate everyone around them. JV is a JAG MLB and a terrible ILB.

We should have traded him in 2005. Now the word is out. Game film doesn't lie.

Btw, Barton doesn't help much either, but he is better than JV. IMO we still need one more 3-4 ILB after Harris.

[#27TheDominator]

I'd be happy with a high second or late first for Vilma actually. JAbe actually had more trade value and we didn't really get much better than that for him. Actually better yet, someone send us an NT or OL for Vilma and we're gold.

Big difference. Abraham is worth more as a player, but Vilma is still under contract. Abraham was under the franchise tag and he had to be signed to a huge long term deal under a restrictive cap. Vilma is under a favorable contract. I'm not sure how many years he has left, but his salary is palatable and the cap is way higher anyway.

GrandW, I think JAG and terrible are a bit excessive. I feel he is a decent player, but never special and a misfit in this system.

[serphnx]

Agreed... in 2004 he was good, with Jason Ferguson and D-Rob to protect him. After Ferguson went to Dallas, JV was exposed for the average player that he is without a dominant line in front of him. Special players make plays and elevate everyone around them. JV is a JAG MLB and a terrible ILB.

We should have traded him in 2005. Now the word is out. Game film doesn't lie.

Btw, Barton doesn't help much either, but he is better than JV. IMO we still need one more 3-4 ILB after Harris.

Even the positions that fans think are okay still need a lot of work, this team is so far away. I like Rhodes, and our WRs are good, but we really don't have a true gamebreaker anywhere on this team. It's good to have a solid team, but that really only works when you have greatness to build around. Ellis is a role player, so is Vilma. Coles and Cotch are honestly role players too. No one is going to confuse any of these guys as in the top 5 at their position.

[GandWFan]

Big difference. Abraham is worth more as a player, but Vilma is still under contract. Abraham was under the franchise tag and he had to be signed to a huge long term deal under a restrictive cap. Vilma is under a favorable contract. I'm not sure how many years he has left, but his salary is palatable and the cap is way higher anyway.

GrandW, I think JAG and terrible are a bit excessive. I feel he is a decent player, but never special and a misfit in this system.

My honest eveluation of JV since he has been a Jet:

2004 MLB - good, showed potential to be great

2005 MLB - poor, too many tackles 6+ yds downfield

2006 ILB - started horrible, excused because of new system. eventually advances to poor, never stout at the point of attack.

2007 ILB - horrible. gets pushed around. JV looks like it stands for Junior Varsity.

Now I know Vilma is a great athlete. I do not deny that. He can run, and jump with the best of them. He is just not nasty enough. He does not have the killer instinct.

Look, MLB or ILB is the heart and soul of the defense. You want Dick Butkus back there. Someone who will rip your head off and **** down your neck. Sometimes I think Vilma and Chad are too smart. Brains will never replace balls on the football field.

[GandWFan]

Even the positions that fans think are okay still need a lot of work, this team is so far away. I like Rhodes, and our WRs are good, but we really don't have a true gamebreaker anywhere on this team. It's good to have a solid team, but that really only works when you have greatness to build around. Ellis is a role player, so is Vilma. Coles and Cotch are honestly role players too. No one is going to confuse any of these guys as in the top 5 at their position.

I'm not sure that I agree 100% with you. We are not close to NE, but we can compete with jsut about veryone else. The good news is mediocrity abounds inthe NFL.

I think we may have an ace with Clemens... time will tell.

Coles and Cotch are money. They are a special tandem. We need someone to get htem the ball in stride.

LJ is exciting. TJ.. we will see.

OLine - good start in 2006 draft. Needs more pieces

Revis is going to be our Ty Law. Need one more CB

Need one more ILB, and a legit DE/OLB/Pass rusher.

Rhodes and Eric Smith are a great pair.

We are about half way there if everyone develops as I hope they will.

[lancemehl]

I want Harris and Vilma, Barton's the one that needs to go.

I mean, the 3-4 sux a$$ with our guys but I want Harris and Vilma stays so.

[GandWFan]

I want Harris and Vilma, Barton's the one that needs to go.

I mean, the 3-4 sux a$$ with our guys but I want Harris and Vilma stays so.

hey lance, your namesake was an outstanding LB.

Anyway, besides reputation, Why do you want Vilma over Barton? Barton is bigger.

Barton: 6'2" 245

Vilma: 6'1" 230

he also is not afraid to stick his nose in a pile. Vilma is faster, but he will never be fast enough to run around blockers and make a play. You have to go through blockers up the gut. Barton will do that. Vilma will not (or at least has not).

[lancemehl]

hey lance, your namesake was an outstanding LB.

Anyway, besides reputation, Why do you want Vilma over Barton? Barton is bigger.

Barton: 6'2" 245

Vilma: 6'1" 230

he also is not afraid to stick his nose in a pile. Vilma is faster, but he will never be fast enough to run around blockers and make a play. You have to go through blockers up the gut. Barton will do that. Vilma will not (or at least has not).

He was the best. I couldn't find any good action shots of him, but, honestly, I'm not going to argue with you, in fact, if you went back and read through my posts you'll see I despis the 3-4, I feel like it destroyed Vilma's career. I live in South Florida where UM plays the basic cover 2 and I watched Vilma tear that league up rightuntil the championship against the heisman Crouch and that option crap. Vilma ate that option up.

Then he came here and was a beast. The the genius came in and I never heard from him again. Same with Shaun Ellis. Why do I want Vilma out there?

Because the thought of an All Pro LB'er being benched because some 30 thirty year old coach insists on playing the one defense he knows makes me puke.

Our defense has how many first and second rounders on it? Show me who our star is? Who's our Zach Thomas? Who's our Urlacher? Our Merriman? WHO'S OUR STAR?

Revis.

Harris should be playing by now. There's a problem,folks! Harris should be playing ILB in real games. He may be a BUUUU

[GandWFan]

He was the best. I couldn't find any good action shots of him, but, honestly, I'm not going to argue with you, in fact, if you went back and read through my posts you'll see I despis the 3-4, I feel like it destroyed Vilma's career. I live in South Florida where UM plays the basic cover 2 and I watched Vilma tear that league up rightuntil the championship against the heisman Crouch and that option crap. Vilma ate that option up.

Then he came here and was a beast. The the genius came in and I never heard from him again. Same with Shaun Ellis. Why do I want Vilma out there?

Because the thought of an All Pro LB'er being benched because some 30 thirty year old coach insists on playing the one defense he knows makes me puke.

Our defense has how many first and second rounders on it? Show me who our star is? Who's our Zach Thomas? Who's our Urlacher? Our Merriman? WHO'S OUR STAR?

Revis.

Harris should be playing by now. There's a problem,folks! Harris should be playing ILB in real games. He may be a BUUUU[/quote]

Don't do it... don't say the B word! lol I hope not, I am pinning my hopes for a decent run D on him.

[JetCane]

He was the best. I couldn't find any good action shots of him, but, honestly, I'm not going to argue with you, in fact, if you went back and read through my posts you'll see I despis the 3-4, I feel like it destroyed Vilma's career. I live in South Florida where UM plays the basic cover 2 and I watched Vilma tear that league up rightuntil the championship against the heisman Crouch and that option crap. Vilma ate that option up.

Then he came here and was a beast. The the genius came in and I never heard from him again. Same with Shaun Ellis. Why do I want Vilma out there?

Because the thought of an All Pro LB'er being benched because some 30 thirty year old coach insists on playing the one defense he knows makes me puke.

Our defense has how many first and second rounders on it? Show me who our star is? Who's our Zach Thomas? Who's our Urlacher? Our Merriman? WHO'S OUR STAR?

Revis.

Harris should be playing by now. There's a problem,folks! Harris should be playing ILB in real games. He may be a BUUUU

Good post, except Harris has been playing. He has rotated in and played ILB with both Vilma and barton. And in the first two games this year, barton has done less than Vilma.

[serphnx]

I'm not sure that I agree 100% with you. We are not close to NE, but we can compete with jsut about veryone else. The good news is mediocrity abounds inthe NFL.

I think we may have an ace with Clemens... time will tell.

Coles and Cotch are money. They are a special tandem. We need someone to get htem the ball in stride.

LJ is exciting. TJ.. we will see.

OLine - good start in 2006 draft. Needs more pieces

Revis is going to be our Ty Law. Need one more CB

Need one more ILB, and a legit DE/OLB/Pass rusher.

Rhodes and Eric Smith are a great pair.

We are about half way there if everyone develops as I hope they will.

If you're serious about being a winner, you have to produce. You can't just say so and so will develop, the league is littered with highly touted players that just never developed.

We just don't have top 5 talent. There's no way you'd draft Coles and Cotch in the top 5 if you were allowed to draft any WR for your team out of the league. Same thing with our RBs. I think we are maybe a quarter of the way there honestly, team needs some serious work on O-line and D-line, on top of that someone's gotta develop. If KC becomes a great QB then offense is taken care of, but just don't hold your breath yet. Defense needs way more work.

[Damaged89]

Even if we switched to the 4-3 we wouldn't be much better. The 3-4 is here as long as Mangini is. Personally I think we trade Vilma after the season, hopefully for a high draft pick and continue to pick up 3-4 pieces.

[Ghost]

This thread blows.

[GandWFan]

Good post, except Harris has been playing. He has rotated in and played ILB with both Vilma and barton. And in the first two games this year, barton has done less than Vilma.

I know you Cane guys love JV. I don't follow colege ball, so I never saw him play. I'm sure he tore it up. But at this level he hasn't. Even in the 4-3.

You must be wearing Cane colored glasses if you think Vilma has done more than Barton this year. I know it is a small sample, just 2 games, but 50 has been around the ball, in the pile, distupting plays where he could. Not saying he has been an all star, but he has been in the pile. 51 has been standing next to it.

[GandWFan]

This thread blows.

So don't post in it, genuis.

But thanks for the bump

[Irish Jet]

Vilma is still good if not great in coverage (for a LB). His run stopping in the 3-4 leave a lot to be desired but I still dont see how we can bench him. For those who said in 2005, that all his tackles were 7-8 yards past the line of scrimmage, thats a load of BS. He lead the team in tackles for loss that year too. He has great speed for a MLB and is great at going from sideline to sideline. he just lacks the size to be a force vs a power running game.

Harris will be a starter soon, but I doubt it will be Vilma who will make way(not this season). IMO he will be traded and we can still get a lot in return, dont think for 1 second that a 4-3 team wouldn't be willing to give up a lot of value for JV.

[Ghost]

So don't post in it, genuis.

But thanks for the bump

So your the guy that wants to bench one of our only TWO playmakers on defense ?

Get real.

[Irish Jet]

So your the guy that wants to bench one of our only TWO playmakers on defense ?

Get real.

Playmaker???

Vilma???

How many career sacks and INTs does he have???

[NorthCoastJetsFan]

I'm not sure that I agree 100% with you. We are not close to NE, but we can compete with jsut about veryone else. The good news is mediocrity abounds inthe NFL.

I think we may have an ace with Clemens... time will tell.

Coles and Cotch are money. They are a special tandem. We need someone to get htem the ball in stride.

LJ is exciting. TJ.. we will see.

OLine - good start in 2006 draft. Needs more pieces

Revis is going to be our Ty Law. Need one more CB

Need one more ILB, and a legit DE/OLB/Pass rusher.

Rhodes and Eric Smith are a great pair.

We are about half way there if everyone develops as I hope they will.

Jury is out on Revis as of yet, but probably good.

Harris isn't exactly a Pro Bowler yet. I haven't seen him do anything that gets my attention yet.

I don't know what you see in Eric Smith, but I don't see it.

Coles and Cotchery are good... just not together. Neither is a deep threat.

Who the heck is LJ?

This team is devoid of playmakers, the kind that scare coordinators. That will take time to address.

[Ghost]

Playmaker???

Vilma???

How many career sacks and INTs does he have???

Like I said, Vilma is a playmaker on our team. Meaning, our team is not so good. People need to understand, Vilma is a complete monster in a 4-3 DEFENSE. It's really hard to switch defenses and play the same way.

[GandWFan]

Vilma is still good if not great in coverage (for a LB). His run stopping in the 3-4 leave a lot to be desired but I still dont see how we can bench him. For those who said in 2005, that all his tackles were 7-8 yards past the line of scrimmage, thats a load of BS. He lead the team in tackles for loss that year too. He has great speed for a MLB and is great at going from sideline to sideline. he just lacks the size to be a force vs a power running game.

Harris will be a starter soon, but I doubt it will be Vilma who will make way(not this season). IMO he will be traded and we can still get a lot in return, dont think for 1 second that a 4-3 team wouldn't be willing to give up a lot of value for JV.

Agreed. That is what is probably keeping him in the lineup. Unfortunately, that is not the primary job of a Middle/Inside LB. Stopping the run is the top priority. He is too light in the butt to do it effectively.

As for the 2005 season, he had an amazing amount of tackles, but we were 27th in hte league in running yds allowed. You do the math.

As for leading the team in tackles for loss, I'll take your word for it. It seems reasonable for a MLB. Exactly how many was that?

he does have great speed, but the problem his he wants to run sideline to sideline, not from his pre-snap position through the point of attack.

[JetCane]

I know you Cane guys love JV. I don't follow colege ball, so I never saw him play. I'm sure he tore it up. But at this level he hasn't. Even in the 4-3.

You must be wearing Cane colored glasses if you think Vilma has done more than Barton this year. I know it is a small sample, just 2 games, but 50 has been around the ball, in the pile, distupting plays where he could. Not saying he has been an all star, but he has been in the pile. 51 has been standing next to it.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. You lost me when you undervalued him in his first year. He was DROY.

[GandWFan]

Like I said, Vilma is a playmaker on our team. Meaning, our team is not so good. People need to understand, Vilma is a complete monster in a 4-3 DEFENSE. It's really hard to switch defenses and play the same way.

Great.. we have the ILB of the island of misfit toys. Maybe Rudolph can help.

Btw. Vilma had one good year inthe 4-3. In 2005, in the 4-3, we were 27th in run defense (yds allowed). Doesn't sound like a MONSTER to me.

[JetCane]

Great.. we have the ILB of the island of misfit toys. Maybe Rudolph can help.

Btw. Vilma had one good year inthe 4-3. In 2005, in the 4-3, we were 27th in run defense (yds allowed). Doesn't sound like a MONSTER to me.

Yeah, it was all one guy's fault.

BTW Barton is going into his 10th season. His treads are a little worn, Mr. Armchair GM.

[gangreenman]

I don't know that it is the 3-4 that is the problem. Vilma wants to move east and west, not sticking his nose into the action unless he has a clear path to the ball carrier. It doesn't work that way. You have to be aggressive. Vilma is the Chad of defense. Cautious, won't make the big mistake, but won't make the big play either.

Watch Ray Lewis from last week's game. At every snap, he is moving forward, defending HIS turf. JV moved forward at the snap, excluding blitzes, 3 times. and 2 out of those 3 times he made a play. The rest of the time he plays statue in the middle.

I don't know, maybe it is coaching. Maybe they want him to "read before reacting" but maybe we can get him a speed reading course!

This is the stupidest thread ive ever seen on JN!!

GandWF, Barton, and whoever else thinks Vilma sucks...Wanna tell me who lead the team in tackles last year, in the 3-4? Wanna tell me the ONE player on our team that has never had less then 100 tackles in a season since he started?

Funny that a lot of the same people that are saying get rid of vilma also wanted to keep Kendall, who is/was nowhere near as valuable to this team as Vilma.

[Barton]

This is the stupidest thread ive ever seen on JN!!

GandWF, Barton, and whoever else thinks Vilma sucks...Wanna tell me who lead the team in tackles last year, in the 3-4? Wanna tell me the ONE player on our team that has never had less then 100 tackles in a season since he started?

Funny that a lot of the same people that are saying get rid of vilma also wanted to keep Kendall, who is/was nowhere near as valuable to this team as Vilma.

Using tackle totals is really not a good way to judge how effective a linebacker is, especially in the 3-4 defense.

Vilma, you could argue, is the least effective player in our front 7. We have zero standout players in the 3-4, but Vilma is probably the least effective player of the whole unit.

I would trade him for a 1st rd pick w/o even blinking. I'd be very surprised if we got a 1st rder in return for Vilma, should we trade him. Its more likely we receive a 2nd rder, or a 2nd and 3rd rder. Probably just a 2nd rder alone though, I would think.

[Gainzo]

This is the stupidest thread ive ever seen on JN!!

GandWF, Barton, and whoever else thinks Vilma sucks...Wanna tell me who lead the team in tackles last year, in the 3-4? Wanna tell me the ONE player on our team that has never had less then 100 tackles in a season since he started?

Funny that a lot of the same people that are saying get rid of vilma also wanted to keep Kendall, who is/was nowhere near as valuable to this team as Vilma.

Thats a very weak argument. Most of Vilmas tackles were 5+ yards down the field much like the washed up Bruschi who put up 112 tackles last year.

Vilma blows. Deal with it.

[JetCane]

Hobson and Barton hAVE both been less productive this year.

[GandWFan]

Yeah, it was all one guy's fault.

BTW Barton is going into his 10th season. His treads are a little worn, Mr. Armchair GM.

Mr. Armchair GM! hmmmm... looks like I hit a nerve. We are all armchair GMs and HCs. We are fans. That's why you post on a Jets board. Don't you have opinions on Jets players? Who is good and who is not so good? Who we should play, or not? I think you do.

I didn't say that it was one guy's fault. But a MLB in a 4-3 is primarily responsible to shut down the run. He is the playmaker, the guy who makes the big hits at the point of attack. The guy who stuffs the run. Wouldn't you agree?

Now that's what JV did in 2004. 2005, not so much. And once we swithched to a 3-4, he is a fish out of water. I kind of feel sorry for him. He didn't ask to be put in this position. If he was smart, he would request a trade to a 4-3 team with 2 good tackles. None the less, he is not getting the job done. But I realize, talking badly about Vilma the Great is almost as bas as knocking Chad Almighty. Btw. What do they both have in common? I good year, their first as starters.

And if you read my posts, I think Barton is not the guy either, but at least he is a gamer.

[JetCane]

I dont play the game of deciding to trade players two games into the season.

If you want to be a mopey cvnt and demand that the defensive captain be benched (STUPID IDEA!) go ahead. You can be whatever you want.

I'll root for the guys in green all year without resorting to stupid sh1t in week two about benching and trading guys.

And that goes for the cutting Mccairens posts last week, too. Whoever said that was just as big of a mopey cvnt as you.

[GandWFan]

Hobson and Barton hAVE both been less productive this year.

Less productive how? Have you watched any of the games. Vilma looks like a boy amoung men. He should own the middle of the field, and he gets pushed around like a little bitch. At least Barton moves forward at the snap and takes on guards and fullbacks. I don't know, maybe statistically he is not collecting numbers as much as JV, but he is certainly collecting more asses.

[GandWFan]

I dont play the game of deciding to trade players two games into the season.

If you want to be a mopey cvnt and demand that the defensive captain be benched (STUPID IDEA!) go ahead. You can be whatever you want.

I'll root for the guys in green all year without resorting to stupid sh1t in week two about benching and trading guys.

And that goes for the cutting Mccairens posts last week, too. Whoever said that was just as big of a mopey cvnt as you.

You know, Jetcane, I have been lurking here for quite a while. I have always enjoyed your posts. You seem like an informed football analyst. And your camp reports were first rate. I looked forward to them, they were the highlight of my day.

Now I decide to start posting, and because I post something about your favorite player, now I am a mopey cvnt and Mr. Armchair GM. That is very disappointing.

I have not attacked you. I have layed out my reasons for feeling the way I do about your precious Cane alum. Please respond in kind. Please tell me why JV should not sit, other than you love him as an ex cane, he tore it up in college, and his 1 great season in a system we no longer deploy. Why should he play TODAY?

Btw. I have been a Jets fan since Joe Namath playe at Shea. In fact I was an AFL fan before the merger. I have seen every play of every game since 1968.

Expressing my opinion does not keep me from rooting for Chad and JV and Borton, and all the rest of the team every Sunday.