Bench Vilma

[Gainzo]

Below is a link to Vilma's stats. The truth hurts:

http://www.nfl.com/players/jonathanvilma/profile?id=VIL582180

He has 2.5 sacks in his career and had a 50% drop in solo tackles from 2005 to 2006.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Jets sucked in 2005 and made the playoffs in 2006.

[Ghost]

Great.. we have the ILB of the island of misfit toys. Maybe Rudolph can help.

Btw. Vilma had one good year inthe 4-3. In 2005, in the 4-3, we were 27th in run defense (yds allowed). Doesn't sound like a MONSTER to me.

Don't you understand we have no DEFENSIVE LINE...

When a big gaurd comes at him, what the hell do you expect him to do ? Seriosuly. Learn your facts.

[Ghost]

Below is a link to Vilma's stats. The truth hurts:

http://www.nfl.com/players/jonathanvilma/profile?id=VIL582180

Vilma's stats are completley horribile but he is our best player on DEFENSE, no question about it. Either him or Rhodes.

[Gainzo]

Vilma's stats are completley horribile but he is our best player on DEFENSE, no question about it. Either him or Rhodes.

Coleman & Ellis are better than Vilma. Rhodes is the best player on your D.

[Ghost]

Coleman & Ellis are better than Vilma. Rhodes is the best player on your D.

Why can't you guys just send us Warren, and we'll let this cheating thing go.

Please ?

[Gainzo]

Why can't you guys just send us Warren, and we'll let this cheating thing go.

Please ?

Warren for Rhodes? I'll take that trade.

[Damaged89]

Vilma's stats are completley horribile but he is our best player on DEFENSE, no question about it. Either him or Rhodes.

he's probably the best athlete on our defense. In the current scheme he has several things working against him:

1) His size. By definition the ILB is supposed to be able to take on guards and fullbacks. I use the term "take on" to describe the act of hitting the lead blocker and stopping him from breaking into the next level. He simply isn't big enough to do this. Blockers just blow him up and move on. This leads to him trying to run around the blocker which isn't a very good way to stop the run.

2) His playing style. Vilma is a guy who likes to run around the field making plays. That's exactly what you want from a 4-3 middle line backer, but thats not in the 3-4 ILB job description.

The season is young and maybe Vilma pulls it together and proves me wrong. I doubt it though.

[Damaged89]

Warren for Rhodes? I'll take that trade.

throw in Wilfork and we have a deal.

[Ghost]

Warren for Rhodes? I'll take that trade.

Yeah, but according to someone without mentioning any names, he won't even make the team.

[GandWFan]

Don't you understand we have no DEFENSIVE LINE...

When a big gaurd comes at him, what the hell do you expect him to do ? Seriosuly. Learn your facts.

I expect him to move forward, take on the guard, and try to fight through top the running back. In a swarning defense, that is how you stop the run. By giving it up at the point of attack.

I do not expect him to give ground and try to dance around the blocking guard. Using that method, maybe he can make the tackle, but it's second and 3.

And we have a defensive line. In Sundays game, D-rob got pushed off the line maybe twice. The rest of the time he held his ground and made some plays. D-Rob is not the problem.

I know JV is undersized for a ILB at 6'1" and 230. Tell me how come Zack Thomas can hold to oint of attack, and he is 5'11" and 235? Is it attitude?

[JetCane]

Correct me if I'm wrong

You're wrong.

Check the stats of all the other LBs if you want to argue stats.

And btw, Vilma played without barton in 2005.

[Gainzo]

throw in Wilfork and we have a deal.

No way. As much as the Pats need a great safety like Rhodes there is no way the fatman (Wilfork) is part of our messageboard trade!

[GandWFan]

he's probably the best athlete on our defense. In the current scheme he has several things working against him:

1) His size. By definition the ILB is supposed to be able to take on guards and fullbacks. I use the term "take on" to describe the act of hitting the lead blocker and stopping him from breaking into the next level. He simply isn't big enough to do this. Blockers just blow him up and move on. This leads to him trying to run around the blocker which isn't a very good way to stop the run.

2) His playing style. Vilma is a guy who likes to run around the field making plays. That's exactly what you want from a 4-3 middle line backer, but thats not in the 3-4 ILB job description.

The season is young and maybe Vilma pulls it together and proves me wrong. I doubt it though.

Agree on all points.

JV is our best athlete. That and $2.00 will get you on the subway.

I agree about his size. He is undersized for an ILB. Question, though. How come Zack Thomas, who is essenially the sme size, is effective in the 3-4? Could it be that Zack has to walk with his legs further apart than JV?

[Gainzo]

You're wrong.

Check the stats of all the other LBs if you want to argue stats.

And btw, Vilma played without barton in 2005.

Sacks for Vilma? 2.5.

I already pointed out that "washed up" Bruschi has comparable stats to Vilma.

BTW: Bruschi had 62 tackles and 2 sacks in 2005 after coming back from a stroke while playing with Monty Beisel and Chad Brown.

I know you love the "U" but you must admit that Vilma is not suited for this kind of defense.

[Damaged89]

No way. As much as the Pats need a great safety like Rhodes there is no way the fatman (Wilfork) is part of our messageboard trade!

Cheapskate!

[JetCane]

Sacks for Vilma? 2.5.

I already pointed out that "washed up" Bruschi has comparable stats to Vilma.

BTW: Bruschi had 62 tackles and 2 sacks in 2005 after coming back from a stroke while playing with Monty Beisel and Chad Brown.

I know you love the "U" but you must admit that Vilma is not suited for this kind of defense.

It'a a huge leap from "he doesnt fit in the 3-4" to "he blows".

Who gives a fvck about Bruschi- he plays for the Cheaters.

Look at the stats of the other JETS LBs.

GTFOOH

[TheGARV]

Vilma is the kind of guy you build your defense around. They need a 4-3 D and let him do his thing. Period.

[Sperm Edwards]

Number of tackles as an isolated statistic is a worthless statistic. There really aren't any stats that speak to his effectiveness; only his opportunity. If teams kept running at Bryan Thomas, then Bryan Thomas would lead the team in tackles. Ditto Victor Hobson. Vilma is in the middle. More runs go up the middle than to either side. Particularly with him in there. And of those up the middle, I'd guess a team is more likely to try to take on Vilma than Barton since one of them is LB sized & the other is like a big SS. Look at the names of some of the other league leaders in tackles in almost any NFL season. Many of them were not only not "elite" players or player who did not have "elite" seasons; some were merely average players on average or below-average defenses.

I mean seriously. Is Paris Lenon better than Lance Briggs because he has more tackles? In 2005, Eric Coleman had an enormous sophomore slump season. Few dispute this with any controversy. Yet that season he finished with the same number of tackles as Brian Urlacher. Does this suggest that Eric Coleman was as much of a sure-tackler than Urlacher? Or was Eric Coleman simply Brian Urlacher's equal in having a nose for the ballcarrier & bringing him down with equal effectiveness?

The very idea is preposterous. Yet when Vilma is brought up, it is this one toothless statistic that is used to somehow show that he was playing at an above-average level. To watch him play last year, no knowledgeable football fan can honestly say that Vilma had one of the top 20 performances among all NFL defenders last season.

Using tackles to measure how good of a job an ILB/MLB is doing is like using # of completions to measure how good a QB is. The QB's who throw the most passes will generally complete the most passes. The QB's who throw mostly dump-off's will generally complete more of their pass attempts. The QB's who are on teams with bad running games and bad defenses will generally attempt more passes & also in turn complete more passes.

It is a function of opportunity; not proof of prowess.

[jetophile]

Here's how I see it. Mangini isn't going to change to a 4-3 at mid-season even if things are going badly. Forget it, if anyone is implying it.

We all know Vilma is having his troubles, but Mangini will see the 3-4 through for the year for certain. Does he switch gears after next year's draft? Depends on what he does there and whyfore. And you can bet he doesn't give Vilma away for a song if so.

EDIT: Vilma ain't no dummy on the field. A tackling dummy these days (Word Play), but that's beside the point.

[#27TheDominator]

Great.. we have the ILB of the island of misfit toys. Maybe Rudolph can help.

Btw. Vilma had one good year inthe 4-3. In 2005, in the 4-3, we were 27th in run defense (yds allowed). Doesn't sound like a MONSTER to me.

2005? Being last in run D when your team has no O and is losing every game is to be expected. They were down in every game and teams were running clock and trying not to turn the ball over. That had very little to do with Vilma.

Less productive how? Have you watched any of the games. Vilma looks like a boy amoung men. He should own the middle of the field, and he gets pushed around like a little bitch. At least Barton moves forward at the snap and takes on guards and fullbacks. I don't know, maybe statistically he is not collecting numbers as much as JV, but he is certainly collecting more asses.

I don't think they should bench Vilma because I don't think there is anybody better on the team. I just think they should have considered moving him (if they could get the high first Sperm thought on draft day I'd have jumped at it) rather than keep a square peg for a round hole.

I blame Mangini. Vilma is a productive player with a ton of speed, not utilizing his strengths seems like a major mistake. Having a coach who is supposed to be a genius and flexible should mean we best utilize a player's talent. Doesn't seem that way in Vilma's case, among others. Unlike LanceMehl, I'm not a huge advocate of going back to the 4-3 because while I don't buy all this 3-4 is superior nonsense, we don't have good 4-3 personnel either now.

[Sperm Edwards]

2005? Being last in run D when your team has no O and is losing every game is to be expected. They were down in every game and teams were running clock and trying not to turn the ball over. That had very little to do with Vilma.

I don't think they should bench Vilma because I don't think there is anybody better on the team. I just think they should have considered moving him (if they could get the high first Sperm thought on draft day I'd have jumped at it) rather than keep a square peg for a round hole.

I blame Mangini. Vilma is a productive player with a ton of speed, not utilizing his strengths seems like a major mistake. Having a coach who is supposed to be a genius and flexible should mean we best utilize a player's talent. Doesn't seem that way in Vilma's case, among others. Unlike LanceMehl, I'm not a huge advocate of going back to the 4-3 because while I don't buy all this 3-4 is superior nonsense, we don't have good 4-3 personnel either now.

I never said we could get a high first rounder. I don't think we could get one anyway. Teams are so wary of trading those away, treating these picks like they're assured HOF players with them. Truth is, if you can get an established star with no bust potential, who fits your scheme, you should fall over yourself to trade even the #1 pick away to get him. Particularly when you consider how much $ the #1 pick gets & what that does to your team in reducing your ability to bring in another quality player instead of another scrub.

It was rumored I think from John Clayton that we were going to trade up to the Lions spot & I assumed that (along with our first & a late 2nd) that the "other" player we were trading away was Vilma. In that scenario, Vilma would carry the weight of the #9 pick. Who knows if there was any truth to it - it was a rumor that was never backed up by either team.

Agree on the "genius" should be dropped from our HC's last name. DRob & Ellis were young players making big money & therefore we couldn't trade either b/c of the acceleration to the salary cap. Neither is an ideal fit for the 3-4. Vilma, as well. A young player who would be a better fit at halfback than as a 3-4 ILB.

Problem with trading him last year is (1) we may not have been offered what VilmaJets fans think he's worth on the open market; (2) teams may have known of a desire to move him & that ruined our leverage. Next year he doesn't carry nearly the same trade value as 2008 is the last year of his rookie deal. Anyone who trades for him after this season has to also give Vilma a big payday right away. If it was a year earlier, they could have put that off for an extra year.

I still think there's potential with Mangini that I didn't think there was with Edwards, if he had players that fit what he wants to run. A major problem seems to be in his eye for bringing in outside talent combined with the availability of said outside talent. Throw in a little youthful arrogance with that, and you've got a team that can neither establish the run on offense nor stop the run on defense. But he is young & supposed to be smart as well, so the potential is there for him to learn from mistakes, which Herm never did.

[GandWFan]

Number of tackles as an isolated statistic is a worthless statistic. There really aren't any stats that speak to his effectiveness; only his opportunity. If teams kept running at Bryan Thomas, then Bryan Thomas would lead the team in tackles. Ditto Victor Hobson. Vilma is in the middle. More runs go up the middle than to either side. Particularly with him in there. And of those up the middle, I'd guess a team is more likely to try to take on Vilma than Barton since one of them is LB sized & the other is like a big SS. Look at the names of some of the other league leaders in tackles in almost any NFL season. Many of them were not only not "elite" players or player who did not have "elite" seasons; some were merely average players on average or below-average defenses.

I mean seriously. Is Paris Lenon better than Lance Briggs because he has more tackles? In 2005, Eric Coleman had an enormous sophomore slump season. Few dispute this with any controversy. Yet that season he finished with the same number of tackles as Brian Urlacher. Does this suggest that Eric Coleman was as much of a sure-tackler than Urlacher? Or was Eric Coleman simply Brian Urlacher's equal in having a nose for the ballcarrier & bringing him down with equal effectiveness?

The very idea is preposterous. Yet when Vilma is brought up, it is this one toothless statistic that is used to somehow show that he was playing at an above-average level. To watch him play last year, no knowledgeable football fan can honestly say that Vilma had one of the top 20 performances among all NFL defenders last season.

Using tackles to measure how good of a job an ILB/MLB is doing is like using # of completions to measure how good a QB is. The QB's who throw the most passes will generally complete the most passes. The QB's who throw mostly dump-off's will generally complete more of their pass attempts. The QB's who are on teams with bad running games and bad defenses will generally attempt more passes & also in turn complete more passes.

It is a function of opportunity; not proof of prowess.

great post. Spot On.

[Cant Hackett]

Vima is just an average LB. With his speed, he pursues well but makes the tackle after a 4-7 yard gain. He does not make plays (ff, int

[GandWFan]

2005? Being last in run D when your team has no O and is losing every game is to be expected. They were down in every game and teams were running clock and trying not to turn the ball over. That had very little to do with Vilma.

But if teams are going to run, and yu know it, half the battle is won. We knew they were going to run it down our throats, and we could do nothing about it. A good run defense stuffs the run and gets the offense back on the field. We did not have a good run defense. It was probably the worst in the league. I think it was the Kansas City opener, where they ran an entire drive up the gut. Not passes, just inside runs. And they drove the field and scored. Talk about being castrated. And that was in the begining of the game.

And run defense has everything to do with the MLB.

I don't think they should bench Vilma because I don't think there is anybody better on the team.

Up until this year I would agree with you. But hey drafted Harris, moved up to get him, to be the stout run stuffing ILB. Let's see what he's got.

[GandWFan]

EDIT: Vilma ain't no dummy on the field. A tackling dummy these days (Word Play), but that's beside the point.

Your right. Vilma is smart. But like I said in a previous post, brains will never replace balls on a football field.

He is smart, but doesn't have the physical tools to play at this level (undersized). Remind you of anyone else on our team. The difference is Chad had the heart and balls to make up for his physical shortcomings. Vilma doesn't play like he does.

[#27TheDominator]

I never said we could get a high first rounder. I don't think we could get one anyway. Teams are so wary of trading those away, treating these picks like they're assured HOF players with them. Truth is, if you can get an established star with no bust potential, who fits your scheme, you should fall over yourself to trade even the #1 pick away to get him. Particularly when you consider how much $ the #1 pick gets & what that does to your team in reducing your ability to bring in another quality player instead of another scrub.

It was rumored I think from John Clayton that we were going to trade up to the Lions spot & I assumed that (along with our first & a late 2nd) that the "other" player we were trading away was Vilma. In that scenario, Vilma would carry the weight of the #9 pick. Who knows if there was any truth to it - it was a rumor that was never backed up by either team.

Agree on the "genius" should be dropped from our HC's last name. DRob & Ellis were young players making big money & therefore we couldn't trade either b/c of the acceleration to the salary cap. Neither is an ideal fit for the 3-4. Vilma, as well. A young player who would be a better fit at halfback than as a 3-4 ILB.

Problem with trading him last year is (1) we may not have been offered what VilmaJets fans think he's worth on the open market; (2) teams may have known of a desire to move him & that ruined our leverage. Next year he doesn't carry nearly the same trade value as 2008 is the last year of his rookie deal. Anyone who trades for him after this season has to also give Vilma a big payday right away. If it was a year earlier, they could have put that off for an extra year.

I still think there's potential with Mangini that I didn't think there was with Edwards, if he had players that fit what he wants to run. A major problem seems to be in his eye for bringing in outside talent combined with the availability of said outside talent. Throw in a little youthful arrogance with that, and you've got a team that can neither establish the run on offense nor stop the run on defense. But he is young & supposed to be smart as well, so the potential is there for him to learn from mistakes, which Herm never did.

When I said "high first round pick" I meant top half. I'm pretty sure you did a long analysis somewhere that we should get maybe the 9th to 16th pick overall for Vilma. I specifically remember something about Carolina, but I'm too lazy to look it up now. That's what I meant by high. Not necessarily the equivalent of a basketball lottery pick. I agree that by waiting we may have lost our window of opportunity for getting any value.

But if teams are going to run, and yu know it, half the battle is won. We knew they were going to run it down our throats, and we could do nothing about it. A good run defense stuffs the run and gets the offense back on the field. We did not have a good run defense. It was probably the worst in the league. I think it was the Kansas City opener, where they ran an entire drive up the gut. Not passes, just inside runs. And they drove the field and scored. Talk about being castrated. And that was in the begining of the game.

And run defense has everything to do with the MLB..

Like I said, your statistic is skewed. The Jets did not have the 29th best run D in '05. You are going by total yards, a completely irrelevant stat. Particularly when a team is being run on constantly because they are always behind. Go by yards per carry and they were 14th. A respectable figure, especially for a team beaten down by failure. So if it has everything to do with the MLB, give the man some credit.

Up until this year I would agree with you. But hey drafted Harris, moved up to get him, to be the stout run stuffing ILB. Let's see what he's got.

This year we have a young ILB that deserves some reps to see what he can do? We had that last year too. Remember Anthony Schlegel? He was picked a round after Harris, why didn't we "see what he's got"? Gibbon wanted to, but the rest of us knew he sucked. As for Harris, according to 'cane he is in the rotation, but maybe he's not ready for big minutes yet. I may not be in love with the 3-4, but I don't think Mangini is sabotaging the team because he is in love with Vilma and Barton. If he were he wouldn't keep going after ILBs.

[Jet27]

Guys, The problem is not Vilma...Vilma stays!!!

[#27TheDominator]

Not fair. I blame computers for the necessity of this edit.

[GandWFan]

Like I said, your statistic is skewed. The Jets did not have the 29th best run D in '05. You are going by total yards, a completely irrelevant stat. Particularly when a team is being run on constantly because they are always behind. Go by yards per carry and they were 14th. A respectable figure, especially for a team beaten down by failure. So if it has everything to do with the MLB, give the man some credit..

Another case of statistics lie. Look, our run defense was horrible. We knew opponents were going to run. We brought up a saftey for run support. And the opposition still gained 3.94 yds per carry. Sure, it's 14th in the league. Sounds pretty middle of the pack. Good for a losing team, huh? Except, again, we kenw they were going to run. Other middle of the packl teams were in closer games, presumably, and had to defend both the pas and the run. See the problem with stats?

Let's go by frustration level. I remember watching those games and screaming at the TV. We could never get the D off the field. We led the league in defensive frustration.

This year we have a young ILB that deserves some reps to see what he can do? We had that last year too. Remember Anthony Schlegel? He was picked a round after Harris, why didn't we "see what he's got"? Gibbon wanted to, but the rest of us knew he sucked. As for Harris, according to 'cane he is in the rotation, but maybe he's not ready for big minutes yet. I may not be in love with the 3-4, but I don't think Mangini is sabotaging the team because he is in love with Vilma and Barton. If he were he wouldn't keep going after ILBs.

Agreed, Schegal was a bad pick, and a bust. But early reports on Harris are positive. maybe he needs to learn the defense better before getting PT. But this love affair with JV has to stop. He is the weak link in our run defense.

[Sperm Edwards]

When I said "high first round pick" I meant top half. I'm pretty sure you did a long analysis somewhere that we should get maybe the 9th to 16th pick overall for Vilma. I specifically remember something about Carolina, but I'm too lazy to look it up now. That's what I meant by high. Not necessarily the equivalent of a basketball lottery pick. I agree that by waiting we may have lost our window of opportunity for getting any value.

I said that he might be worth a trade that high to someone who needed a 4-3 MLB. What's-his-name on Carolina was a walking concussion. Another one & he is (or should be) out of the league for his own good. Forget when they picked exactly but think it was high teens. That's about as much value I think Vilma had as an even-up trade. Only other one maybe could have been Buffalo who picked even higher I think.

But just because Vilma doesn't carry a certain trade value league-wide doesn't mean that a team with a specific need at Vilma's position wouldn't over-pay to acquire said player. Was Keyshawn Johnson worth two first-round picks? Absurd. Doesn't mean there were no teams willing to part with them.

Would it have been worthwhile for us to deal JV for a low first or a high second? If we didn't get a dud with that pick, of course. But that assumes (1) that some team was making such offers, and (2) that the PR or internal backlash among the other players was outweighed by that rookie's play.

[Gibbon]

This is a brilliant idea. Let's bench one of our best defensive players, destroying his trade value in the process, so Mangini can continue to run his ineffective 3-4 scheme.

Jets should either go back to a 4-3 scheme, the scheme that made Vilma a pro-bowler leading the NFL in tackles in 2005, or just trade him for a first round pick.

Go ahead, bench Vilma. Our run defense and pass rush will continue to suck plus we'll have the added benefit of not being able to get a 1st round pick for him after the season is over.

Pete:

Some strange transformation has come over me since Schlegel left. I seem to find myself agreeing with you more and more often.

NOOooooooooAAAAArGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!. What's happening to me !!!!!!!

IQ going down !!!!!! AAAAhhhhhh!!!

Desire to name myself after male porn star rising !!!!!!!!!!

Mwwuahhaaaa!!!! I am PeterNorth10 Mwwuahhaaaaa!!!!!!

Seriously, while I agree that Vilma is out of place in the 3-4 you cant bench him. Trade him or keep playing him are the only options.

[GandWFan]

that the PR or internal backlash among the other players was outweighed by that rookie's play.

And that, I believe, is why JV probably will not sit. He is a leader in the locker room. He is the consistant veteran presence. Unfortunately his recent play does not warrent this, but until it is painfully obvious to his fellow players that he should not be on the field, he will continue to start.

Just look at the reaction to this thread by the Jets fans contingent who are knowlegeable enough to post here. It will take a lot for the players who have gone to war with him every week to realize he is not the best fit.

[NJ]

Let's bench one of our best defensive players, destroying his trade value in the process, so Mangini can continue to run his ineffective 3-4 scheme.

Jets should either go back to a 4-3 scheme, the scheme that made Vilma a pro-bowler leading the NFL in tackles in 2005, or just trade him for a first round pick.

I dont see Vilma being very effective in the current 3-4 so it's a double edged sword leaving him in there to maintain his trade value when he's not making an impact. But you cant bench the guy either. I'd love to see what Harris could do with everything else equal in the 3-4. We already know what Vilma can do in the 4-3.

[JetCane]

I dont see Vilma being very effective in the current 3-4 so it's a double edged sword leaving him in there to maintain his trade value when he's not making an impact. But you cant bench the guy either. I'd love to see what Harris could do with everything else equal in the 3-4. We already know what Vilma can do in the 4-3.

Harris played a bunch of plays last week, and saw some time in the first game, too. He has been credited with zero tackles so far.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/teams/nyj/stats;_ylt=AuQfs.6PjkQAHT0WTkJ5iYWQ2bYF

[124]

Unless the coaching staff plans to switch back to the 43 after this season then Jonathan Vilma is as good as gone before the draft in April.