Are we hurting Clemens/QB Development

[SenorGato]

Something I noticed is that many "breakout" QBs lately have walked into nice offensive situations.

Derek Anderson getting to play with a great O-line, an elite TE, a big/fast/young WR.

Phillip Rivers had a solid season last year with elites at RB, TE, and the best O-line in the NFL last year.

Roethlisberger early on in his career had an offense he was basically there to manage while gaining experience.

Chad in '02 had a very good O-line, two good WRs, and a running game.

Brady had one of the best QB coaches in football, a very efficient offense that doesn't ask a ton from anyone really, and solid veteran players all around him.

Build an O-line, give a young QB weapons, and have a running game and you are setting up a situation for your young QB to thrive.

It's one of the things that worries me about Clemens. It's really risky for a QB to "grow with his team." Look what happened to David Carr...stuck behind a crappy O-line with no running game and he developed terrible habits that ruined his career. It's just not easy to QB a rebuilding team....and asking a young QB to "take his lumps" could lead to him getting labeled a bust.

Honestly, finding a QB isn't as mystical and magical as people make it out to be. Romo or Brady in a less stable situation might be the David Carr/Alex Smith of UDFA/late round draft picks.

The best way to find your QB is to find a guy with the skills you want from a QB (smart, mentally quick, quick on his feet, above average arm, good accuracy)...coach him up while building a good offense at every position...and let him get some experience with that offense when he's ready and the unit is stable.

[serphnx]

I don't think Tom Brady really helps your argument, although BB really brought him along nicely, that's a great coaching job rather than a great O-line, RB or receiving corps imo.

I can't say that Troy Aikman had those things either.

I don't think Peyton Manning had really most of it either, although he did have that RB I believe, either Faulk or Edge always was there for him iirc.

Clemens is bound to have a bad start to his career, I just wish the OC would help him along more than they have.

[Barton]

It was not a great situation for Clemens this season. It never is when you are taking over for a 1-6 team with massive Oline issues and facing 4 top 10 defenses in your first 4 starts without your #1 WR.

But I dont think we are hurting his QB development unless we somehow bring this same exact offense back in 2008, which I am sure will not happen. Alot of young QBs have gone through tough times their rookie years, the great ones always rebound. IMO, if Clemens is our future franchise QB then this season shouldnt hurt him (unless he gets injured, knock on wood).

I really like what I have seen from him thus far.

[BUM-KNEE]

If anything, the situation is helping Clemens. He is getting a serious taste of adversity, and he is having to make do with what is available at his disposal. This shapes his ability to diagnose and read, and when given more components to work with he will only get sharper. I would rather have a QB that has some experience with adversity, so that when he is faced with it he can keep his head --as opposed to the opposite where a QB never sees it and struggles in tough games that the gameplan goes awry or a key injury causes things to go deep south.

[GimmeShelter]

I assume you weren't screaming for Clemens to come in all season or part of the anti Chad childish militia on JI?

Anyway , a losing season is the time to find out about your draft picks if you have any future plans for him.

[Irish Jet]

It's tough to give examples of how other QB's started because for ever Ben Roethlisberger and Tom Brady there is a Troy Aikman and a Carson Palmer. Different QB's will react differently to different situations, let's hope Clemens can take his lumps this year and come back a much better QB (on hopefully a much better team) and lead us to the playoffs next year.

[gang_green03]

We're only hurting his development if we keep a bad team around him for multiple seasons. If we improve as a team than it'll be fine. If his game can be destroyed by one bad season then he wasn't gonna be a successful QB anyway.

[pjam76]

Peyton Manning and Troy Aikman were on bad teams.. The Cowboys went what, 1-15 in his first year... Seemed he turned out ok. The Colts were what, 3-13 in Manning's first year, didn't hurt him much.

As far as Derek Anderson, who knows if this guy is the answer... They had a horrible Offense last year and talk about what a difference a year makes. THey drafted an OL with a top 5 pick and the kid looks like he's been playing for 4 years. He takes some lumps now and again, but in all honesty, he looks like he was worth a top 5 pick most of the time. On the other hand the Jets drafted DBrick who is now in Year two and he still hasn't shown he was worth a top 5 pick.

I think it's more about coaching than anything else.... THe OL is bad, but for it to get this much worse since last season speaks of bad coaching. DBrick and Mangold should be anchoring a bad to avg OL, they shouldn't be part of one of the worst OL in the NFL. Something is seriously wrong with the way this coaching staff coaches it's young talent....

I hope KC improves, but I don't know... It seems our coaches aren't improving the players.

[gang_green03]

Peyton Manning and Troy Aikman were on bad teams.. The Cowboys went what, 1-15 in his first year... Seemed he turned out ok. The Colts were what, 3-13 in Manning's first year, didn't hurt him much.

As far as Derek Anderson, who knows if this guy is the answer... They had a horrible Offense last year and talk about what a difference a year makes. THey drafted an OL with a top 5 pick and the kid looks like he's been playing for 4 years. He takes some lumps now and again, but in all honesty, he looks like he was worth a top 5 pick most of the time. On the other hand the Jets drafted DBrick who is now in Year two and he still hasn't shown he was worth a top 5 pick.

I think it's more about coaching than anything else.... THe OL is bad, but for it to get this much worse since last season speaks of bad coaching. DBrick and Mangold should be anchoring a bad to avg OL, they shouldn't be part of one of the worst OL in the NFL. Something is seriously wrong with the way this coaching staff coaches it's young talent....

I hope KC improves, but I don't know... It seems our coaches aren't improving the players.

I'm not sure I follow your logic here. To say that none of our young players have improved isn't correct. D'Brick, Washington, Smith, and Clemens have all improved. Mangold might've regressed a little but it could've been that he played a little over his head last year and has come back to earth and is now having a more normal progression. As far as the o-line you can't even have an average line if you only have two players that are doing their job.

[serphnx]

I'm not sure I follow your logic here. To say that none of our young players have improved isn't correct. D'Brick, Washington, Smith, and Clemens have all improved. Mangold might've regressed a little but it could've been that he played a little over his head last year and has come back to earth and is now having a more normal progression. As far as the o-line you can't even have an average line if you only have two players that are doing their job.

Mangold and Brick are pretty much the same as the day they came in. Washington is only a kick returner apparently, and again I don't really see improvement, as soon as he was allowed to return kicks he was already good at it, rather than improving every week. As for playing on offense he never does anything. Smith barely plays, he has been a "project" for 2 years now. We'll have to see. Clemens, well if you believe he was worse than Ramsey a year ago I guess he improved, but right now he is the worst starting QB in the league in terms of QB rating. The CS refuses to put him in a position to win either, instead forcing him into 2nd and 3rd and long situations, and constantly forcing him to play catchup and against great defenses only. It's like they still have this hard-on to prove that they were right about Chad by trying to make Clemens look bad.

Brick and Mangold seem the exact same too.

Everyone is always a "project" on a bad team. A great coach finds a way to let young players contribute somehow. Oh well, let's just hope things get better soon.

[gang_green03]

Mangold and Brick are pretty much the same as the day they came in. Washington is only a kick returner apparently, and again I don't really see improvement, as soon as he was allowed to return kicks he was already good at it, rather than improving every week. As for playing on offense he never does anything. Smith barely plays, he has been a "project" for 2 years now. We'll have to see. Clemens, well if you believe he was worse than Ramsey a year ago I guess he improved, but right now he is the worst starting QB in the league in terms of QB rating. The CS refuses to put him in a position to win either, instead forcing him into 2nd and 3rd and long situations, and constantly forcing him to play catchup and against great defenses only. It's like they still have this hard-on to prove that they were right about Chad by trying to make Clemens look bad.

Brick and Mangold seem the exact same too.

Everyone is always a "project" on a bad team. A great coach finds a way to let young players contribute somehow. Oh well, let's just hope things get better soon.

Mangold is about the same but I don't see how Brick hasn't improved. His run-blocking is still below average but his pass protection has most definitely been better. Maybe there's no improvement if you're expecting giant leaps in his game but I don't know what you're looking at if you don't see some improvement. Clemens has without question improved. He wasn't ready last year. The main thing is that he's not as indecisive as he was last year, although its still a bit of a problem. Smith's situation was easy because of course he'd improve cause he was so raw to start off. He has inconsistant hands but his route running has most definitely improved. I agree that you might have a point with Washington. This is just off the top of my head. To say that the young players haven't improved at all over their rookie seasons is grossly exaggerating. They haven't grown in leaps and bounds but it hasn't been marginal improvement either. Again, maybe you expect huge steps forward but I have seen fairly normal progression in the games of our young players.

[serphnx]

Mangold is about the same but I don't see how Brick hasn't improved. His run-blocking is still below average but his pass protection has most definitely been better. Maybe there's no improvement if you're expecting giant leaps in his game but I don't know what you're looking at if you don't see some improvement. Clemens has without question improved. He wasn't ready last year. The main thing is that he's not as indecisive as he was last year, although its still a bit of a problem. Smith's situation was easy because of course he'd improve cause he was so raw to start off. He has inconsistant hands but his route running has most definitely improved. I agree that you might have a point with Washington. This is just off the top of my head. To say that the young players haven't improved at all over their rookie seasons is grossly exaggerating. They haven't grown in leaps and bounds but it hasn't been marginal improvement either. Again, maybe you expect huge steps forward but I have seen fairly normal progression in the games of our young players.

It's not necessarily I expect huge leaps, but it's also outside of Brick and Mangold I don't really see them play much. I will definitely say that I really like Harris and Revis and feel they've done a good job with those two. But on offense? Meh, I have a lot of problems with how this team approaches offensive rookies and offensive gameplans in general. I want to see Smith, Washington and Clemens get extended looks on offense so I can see whether they improve or not, you need the playing time to improve. Looks like Clemens will get it, and Smith might too, but right now they would just begin getting that so we can't really say much until we see what adjustments the CS makes for them in the coming games. That's why I am taking a wait and see approach. You can't improve without actual gametime imo, that's when coaching really shows itself.

[Irish Jet]

It's not necessarily I expect huge leaps, but it's also outside of Brick and Mangold I don't really see them play much. I will definitely say that I really like Harris and Revis and feel they've done a good job with those two. But on offense? Meh, I have a lot of problems with how this team approaches offensive rookies and offensive gameplans in general. I want to see Smith, Washington and Clemens get extended looks on offense so I can see whether they improve or not, you need the playing time to improve. Looks like Clemens will get it, and Smith might too, but right now they would just begin getting that so we can't really say much until we see what adjustments the CS makes for them in the coming games. That's why I am taking a wait and see approach. You can't improve without actual gametime imo, that's when coaching really shows itself.

Agreed, the coaching have just overall been terrible this year.

[serphnx]

haha man is it just me or is the board ridiculously civil right now? Shouldn't there be giant flamewars going on over our differing opinions? This is hilarious to me. I guess this is what happens when we're 2-9 and everyones afraid of losing to an 0-11 team!

[BUM-KNEE]

haha man is it just me or is the board ridiculously civil right now? Shouldn't there be giant flamewars going on over our differing opinions? This is hilarious to me. I guess this is what happens when we're 2-9 and everyones afraid of losing to an 0-11 team!

Civil is good, incessant bickering sours the site. IMO

Bring back DWC....... NOT.

[Irish Jet]

I agree, everyones agreeing. It's scary.

It's is however a nice change up to some of the pandammonium that can take place here.

[BUM-KNEE]

I agree, everyones agreeing. It's scary.

It's is however a nice change up to some of the pandammonium that can take place here.

Very true Irish, I agree totally. ;)

[Integrity28]

Quarterbacks and their success rate depends ENTIRELY on the state of the offensive line when they are first handed the reigns.

Countless high-prospect QBs have been selected early in drafts and been expected to be the cure-all for the terrible teams that drafted them. Only to fall upon complete failure in their first couple season, and for some their complete career.

There is usually a reason a team is 3-13 and selecting first overall, its because they sucked. One of the most prominent reasons that teams suck in today's NFL is because of the offensive line. The offensive line is the key to every aspect of the game, the passing game relies upon the O-line for obvious reasons, the running game as well, but so does the defense. The defense relies upon the offensive line to be the lynchpin to an offense that can kill the clock and keep that defense off the field.

Without a good offensive line in place, its virtually pointless to try evaluating a new QB. David Carr was RUINED by the Houston Texans and their reluctance to build an offensive line to protect him, not only did he not take that team to the promised land, but he has become a virtual joke in NFL circles. Tim Couch is another example, Cleveland was reluctant to build the offensive line, and leaned entirely upon Couch in his inexperience to make that team, he could not, now he is out of the league and using performance enhancers to try and get back the career that Cleveland stole from him by not building the right situation for him to excel in.

Tom Brady came into a situation with a great coach, great coaches understand the importance of the O-line. Without constant pressure, a coach can take a QB and help him learn from his experiences and grow as a leader. Romo is experiencing the same sort of success. He was plugged into a situation where he has a phenominal O-line, and because he isn't running for his life each week, he is able to be coached up to continually get better.

Long story short, bad O-line play, means your QB is going to play scared and frantic, which will forever inhibit his ability to excel, grow or materialize potential.

My biggest fear with this Jets team is that Mangini and Tannenbaum will neglect the offensive line in their 3rd offseason, after neglecting it in their 2nd season, and will "ruin" Kellen Clemens, thus setting the franchise back another 1/2 a decade.

Next year, Nick Mangold, D'Brickashaw Ferguson (+20 lbs), Brandon Moore and a new LG and a new RT will hopefully be enough to allow Kellen Clemens to mature towards being a good/great QB one day. I have realistic expectations of him, I think the ceiling is very high if the front office makes the right decisions.

[#27TheDominator]

Smith has improved a lot. Sure he's still a project and not a sure option at #3 receiver, but he's got more than double the receptions he had all last season and close to triple the yardage. Hell, he's even got a TD. Less carries, but that's okay with me because I'm more satisfied with the RB situation. I'm happy with his progression. He might be good for 40-50 catches next year at this rate. Hopefully he can step up with Cotch down and Coles gimpy.

[shodan9999]

Something I noticed is that many "breakout" QBs lately have walked into nice offensive situations.

Derek Anderson getting to play with a great O-line, an elite TE, a big/fast/young WR.

Phillip Rivers had a solid season last year with elites at RB, TE, and the best O-line in the NFL last year.

Roethlisberger early on in his career had an offense he was basically there to manage while gaining experience.

Chad in '02 had a very good O-line, two good WRs, and a running game.

Brady had one of the best QB coaches in football, a very efficient offense that doesn't ask a ton from anyone really, and solid veteran players all around him.

Build an O-line, give a young QB weapons, and have a running game and you are setting up a situation for your young QB to thrive.

It's one of the things that worries me about Clemens. It's really risky for a QB to "grow with his team." Look what happened to David Carr...stuck behind a crappy O-line with no running game and he developed terrible habits that ruined his career. It's just not easy to QB a rebuilding team....and asking a young QB to "take his lumps" could lead to him getting labeled a bust.

Honestly, finding a QB isn't as mystical and magical as people make it out to be. Romo or Brady in a less stable situation might be the David Carr/Alex Smith of UDFA/late round draft picks.

The best way to find your QB is to find a guy with the skills you want from a QB (smart, mentally quick, quick on his feet, above average arm, good accuracy)...coach him up while building a good offense at every position...and let him get some experience with that offense when he's ready and the unit is stable.

It would be nice to be able to order up the Off. line you want ! But many QBs have had to make their mark with the cards they drew...Clemens will have to also...playing is how they develope...he will be fine...the FO needs to get the line in FA and the draft !