bitonti Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 If you want be literal about things then "luxury" applies to anything other than housing food and transportation. If I put a quarter in a video game then that is luxury because it is non-essential?? It makes no sense to look at Return on Investment for leisure items because you are not looking for a financial return, you are looking for enjoyment. When I play golf, I enjoy it when the round is in the $40-$75 range and I am getting my moneys worth. If it was $500 a round then it would not be worth it to me and I would not play because it is not worth my investment. It matters to me whether the tickets are $10 or $1,000, because at some point the return in terms of enjoyment per dollar spent are not worth it. That is the return on investment here, not what the Jets and Giants are trying to push, which is a depreciating asset. I don't disagree with any of that, but I would add that golf isn't for everyone and neither are Jets season tickets. It's a want not a need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Exactly. It's not like power service. PSE&G cannot charge whatever they want for their service simply because they are a monopoly. But Woody can, because it is. the Jets are entertainment. There is no monopoly on entertainment in the NY Tri State area. Monopoly is not based on demand it's based on supply. The supply of entertainment is huge, and there are a variety of price points. If your demand is so specific that it limited you to one product that's not a true monopoly. Saying the Jets are a monopoly is like because I will only eat McDonald hamburgers, therefore McDonalds has a dining monopoly on McDonald hamburgers. Or because I will only wear Polo Ralph Lauren shirts, Polo has a monopoly on Polo shirts. YOU and I choose to be exclusively Jets fans (as opposed to Dragons fans or Islanders fans or whatever else) - if those personal choices eliminate all other options it's a demand situation not a true supply situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Good discussion here on the definition of luxury. One question: I am very unattractive, I mean a friend of mine is. And he feels like he needs sex. Still talking about my friend. Anyhow the only way he gets it is by paying for it. Is this also a luxury item? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Perhaps when I go to the movies, I should buy a license for the privilege of sitting in a new theater and then paying for the movie on top of that Perhaps when I go to a new restaurant, I should pay for license to get reservation, fund the building costs and then buy dinner on top of that Perhaps when I buy a new suit, I should pay a license for the priviliege of buying the suit. After all, the new store costs money. Perhaps when I go to the doctor I should pay a PSL for the right to have him give me physical (which I then get billed for) Perhaps my wife will charge a PSL that will give me the right to have dinner in my own house (bad example, I may actually save money this way). It is ludicrous to pay for the right to buy something. If I had the right of first refusal on any other event in the building, then it may make sense, but you get zippo. This is a money grab, extortion plain and simple. Funding the stadium is not my problem. In no other business does the customer pay for the business owner to build a new facility. Do you have a Costco or BJ's card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green DNA Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Do you have a Costco or BJ's card? Yes BJ's, but that would only be relevant if: * The PSL's were $29 per year like a BJ's membership * The PSL's entitled me to save a lot of money and recoup my initial outlay, most likely the first time I use the card, After that all the savings go in my pocket. With the PSL, there is no savings. If you were able to amortize the PSL over it's life, using a pro-rated credit towards the ticket price every year then the comparison would be more relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Yes BJ's, but that would only be relevant if: * The PSL's were $29 per year like a BJ's membership * The PSL's entitled me to save a lot of money and recoup my initial outlay, most likely the first time I use the card, After that all the savings go in my pocket. With the PSL, there is no savings. If you were able to amortize the PSL over it's life, using a pro-rated credit towards the ticket price every year then the comparison would be more relevant. Dude your wife charges you for the BJ Card? I got mine free as long as I promise to not use it more than once a quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSJets Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Good discussion here on the definition of luxury. One question: I am very unattractive, I mean a friend of mine is. And he feels like he needs sex. Still talking about my friend. Anyhow the only way he gets it is by paying for it. Is this also a luxury item? WTF, Smizzy actually charges you? Err...your friend? That's not right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green DNA Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Dude your wife charges you for the BJ Card? I got mine free as long as I promise to not use it more than once a quarter. You think it's free but your actually paying for it on a regular basis at the Woodbridge Mall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashlite80 Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 If you want be literal about things then "luxury" applies to anything other than housing food and transportation. If I put a quarter in a video game then that is luxury because it is non-essential?? It makes no sense to look at Return on Investment for leisure items because you are not looking for a financial return, you are looking for enjoyment. When I play golf, I enjoy it when the round is in the $40-$75 range and I am getting my moneys worth. If it was $500 a round then it would not be worth it to me and I would not play because it is not worth my investment. It matters to me whether the tickets are $10 or $1,000, because at some point the return in terms of enjoyment per dollar spent are not worth it. That is the return on investment here, not what the Jets and Giants are trying to push, which is a depreciating asset. If a PSL is your right to own a piece of the franchise, does that mean that Woody doesn't have the right to raise the price?? Tickets go up every year when the Jets own the seats. Where do they get the authority to raise the price I pay for a seat I own? Noone seems to focus on the fact that the ticket price is for the first year. You own the right to renew or sell but they retain the right to raise prices. Your PSL assures them that you have no choice but to pay up. Now my question. Can anyone name another example where an investment is purchased, where the price of holding that asset is controlled by the person who sold it to you. Mr $30000 seat license. Your example is $165 + $100 for the weekly amortization of the PSL. Well ticket prices have doubled in the last 10 years. If Woody continues his wild ride, tickets will double 3 times in 30 years. Your ticket price would go from $165 to $330 in year 11, $660 in year 21, and $1320 a game in year 31. Now find a profit in those PSL's. Even at half that pace, how long before your PSL only has value to a corporate holder??? The focus is on the wild PSL lump sums. The hidden problem is, once you put $30,000 per seat in a PSL, what do you do when the per game ticket price jumps. You can't afford it, your PSL is devalued and you have no choice because you lose your investment if you don't renew. Houses go up in value because the mortgage company can't raise it's price to reduce your investment return, For all those Jet team spies talking the investment bullcrap, an investment is in the control of the holder until sold and is not conditioned on any future investment stream to retain. If ticketholder at 50 yard line loses job and can't sell his PSL's in time, does he forfeit his $80,000 investment???!!!!! Call it what it is. It's an upfront payment for the continued right to purchase tickets. It's investment value, except for the really good seats, will have a resale value about as good as that timeshare your father bought twenty years ago in the Poconos for $8000. It's selling on ebay for $300. Go to the games because you can afford it. If you count on the resale to make it affordable, you're in the same boat as the guy who counted on that timeshares' resale value to fund his retirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 I love this line Of course he leaves out the fact that they raised the cost of going to the game by 50% and have kept it the HIGHEST IN THE NFL since 2002. Doesn't mention that Gillette doesn't even have escalators and was built in the woods in Southern MA. Hey, if Woody can pull it off and keep the Jets with lower PSLs, it would be a great PR move. Again, PSLs are not bad, HIGH PSLs are bad. If you PSL was $50 per ticket they would be great. You would be able to keep them, save them, sell them. It is only when they get into the big bucks (over $1,000) that the question of the "investment" comes into play. BZ As I've told you many times before my lower level sideline seats went from $49 to $99 when Gillette opened. A whopping $1,500 increase for my 3 seats. Not a bad deal IMO. Kraft tried to get a new Stadium built on the waterfront in South Boston but the politicians stonewalled him. He had to threaten a move to Hartford before the State agreed to provide infrastructure improvements to keep the team in Massachusetts. I'm sure you can relate to politicians screwing things up with the way the West Side thing fell to pieces. BTW: Check out what the Ravens charge for a Stadium that was built in 1998. http://www.baltimoreravens.com/Gameday/Tickets/PSLs_and_Season_Tickets.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green DNA Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 As I've told you many times before my lower level sideline seats went from $49 to $99 when Gillette opened. A whopping $1,500 increase for my 3 seats. Not a bad deal IMO. Kraft tried to get a new Stadium built on the waterfront in South Boston but the politicians stonewalled him. He had to threaten a move to Hartford before the State agreed to provide infrastructure improvements to keep the team in Massachusetts. I'm sure you can relate to politicians screwing things up with the way the West Side thing fell to pieces. BTW: Check out what the Ravens charge for a Stadium that was built in 1998. http://www.baltimoreravens.com/Gameday/Tickets/PSLs_and_Season_Tickets.aspx Plus this important little item: "An opportunity to purchase tickets for other stadium events when applicable" This was one of the original perks of having a PSL, one which is pretty tough to pull off when you sell the same seat twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 Plus this important little item: "An opportunity to purchase tickets for other stadium events when applicable" This was one of the original perks of having a PSL, one which is pretty tough to pull off when you sell the same seat twice. Exactly. Look at these other "advantages" to owning a PSL: Not only do you receive controlling rights to your seat location, other benefits of owning a PSL also include: * Pending ticket availability, a single game offer to PSL owners before tickets go on sale to the general public * An opportunity to purchase your seats for potential playoff games * An opportunity to purchase tickets for other stadium events when applicable * An entry in a Super Bowl lottery for each PSL that you own if the team participates I get all of the same things as a season ticket holder for the Pats. Even the option to purchase tickets for other stadium events. Maybe the Ravens Marketing Dept sucks or that is all they have to say how great PSL's are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 Exactly. Look at these other "advantages" to owning a PSL: I get all of the same things as a season ticket holder for the Pats. Even the option to purchase tickets for other stadium events. Maybe the Ravens Marketing Dept sucks or that is all they have to say how great PSL's are. This is total nonsense. Why would I care if I got entered in a Super Bowl lottery? These are Jets tickets we are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 This is total nonsense. Why would I care if I got entered in a Super Bowl lottery? These are Jets tickets we are talking about. Thats a good point but it can happen. The Pats have been to 5 Super Bowls since I've had season tickets. I won the lottery* in 2004. Anything can happen! *And sold those tickets for a tidy profit. Who wants to go to Jacksonville? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green DNA Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 Thats a good point but it can happen. The Pats have been to 5 Super Bowls since I've had season tickets. I won the lottery* in 2004. Anything can happen! *And sold those tickets for a tidy profit. Who wants to go to Jacksonville? I got a pair of tix from the NFL lottery for the first Pats SB win. I sold them because I didn't want to take my son to New Orleans at that point in time. The tickets cost $375 and I sold them for $750 each to some dopey Rams fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaumerJet Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 Now my question. Can anyone name another example where an investment is purchased, where the price of holding that asset is controlled by the person who sold it to you. Mr $30000 seat license. Your example is $165 + $100 for the weekly amortization of the PSL. Well ticket prices have doubled in the last 10 years. If Woody continues his wild ride, tickets will double 3 times in 30 years. Your ticket price would go from $165 to $330 in year 11, $660 in year 21, and $1320 a game in year 31. Now find a profit in those PSL's. Even at half that pace, how long before your PSL only has value to a corporate holder??? Yes it does - All PSL's have been based on the Pay to Play option. If you do not buy season tickets for that year, you LOSE YOUR PSL! It's all a part of the license which you pay in order to be able to buy tickets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Yes it does - All PSL's have been based on the Pay to Play option. If you do not buy season tickets for that year, you LOSE YOUR PSL! It's all a part of the license which you pay in order to be able to buy tickets... Exactly. If you don't purchase season tickets you have to sell your PSL. What happens if your season tickets get revoked because you sold them to some idiot who gets himself ejected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aec4 Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Revis can cover a crossing route: FACT The rest may be true, but Revis still can't cover a crossing route. Whining is here to stay: FACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Whining is here to stay: FACT Why do you post in these threads? You don't have season tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aec4 Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Why do you post in these threads? You don't have season tickets. I can ask you the same question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I can ask you the same question... I have season tickets for another team. A team that built it's own Stadium without PSL's. I think my thoughts on this matter are more relevant than yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aec4 Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Guys.. it's either PSLs, or a greater ticket raise. One way or another, they are going to recoup some of the money. So explain to me how a ticket that would have a $1K PSL and is $100 a game is different than no PSL and $125 a game. In 4 years, you're dead even, AND you have nothing for it. At least with the PSL, even if you can just recoup the 1K, you get it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aec4 Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I think my thoughts on this matter are more relevant than yours. You don't have Jets season tickets, so using your logic, you're in the same boat as I am. Your season tickets with the Pats have absolutely no bearing on this argument either. So the Pats do not have PSLs. yay... they just charge a little more than they would have with PSLs, and recoup the money this way. What's the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 So the Pats do not have PSLs. yay... they just charge a little more than they would have with PSLs, and recoup the money this way. What's the difference. I didn't have to lay down any money for a PSL. Thats the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iowa Jetfan Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 When I saw the title of this post, I thought that Trojan Condoms had purchased the naming rights for the new stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garb Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Off topic: But Gainzo, that new sig line of yours is freakin' funny. I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Off topic: But Gainzo, that new sig line of yours is freakin' funny. I love it. Don't you love it! I needed to get rid of the Celtics sig as it had been a few weeks since they won it all so I thought back to the good old days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aec4 Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I didn't have to lay down any money for a PSL. Thats the difference. So you pay extra for tickets, so it's all even in the long run... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Nothing like listening to another person whine. There are going to be seat licenses. Get over it. If you don't want to pay or can't afford them, then don't. There is nothing you can do about it. It may not seem right, but the team is a business and they choose to charge. Actually here in America, home of a capitalist market, the demand sets the price of a product. Therefore there actually IS something we can do about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aec4 Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Actually here in America, home of a capitalist market, the demand sets the price of a product. Therefore there actually IS something we can do about. Very true... but with a 10,000 waiting list, they see demand as high. That can be wrong, but that's how it appears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Very true... but with a 10,000 waiting list, they see demand as high. That can be wrong, but that's how it appears. Are you ****ing dense? or what? do you actually read any of these threads? Almost half of the numbers on the waiting list came up this year. so already before the psl's have even kicked in the waiting list has shrunk considerably. the demand should be all gone by the time that incompetent idiot woody decides what he should do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Are you ****ing dense? or what? do you actually read any of these threads? Almost half of the numbers on the waiting list came up this year. so already before the psl's have even kicked in the waiting list has shrunk considerably. the demand should be all gone by the time that incompetent idiot woody decides what he should do. The market is speaking. The fact is Woody got *****ed with the state of the economy. NYer's can barely afford to drive to work. Hopefully when these billionaires feel the pinch themselves, they'll finally be compelled to lobby our government to ACTUALLY do something as opposed to their typical mouthpiece work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aec4 Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Are you ****ing dense? or what? do you actually read any of these threads? Almost half of the numbers on the waiting list came up this year. so already before the psl's have even kicked in the waiting list has shrunk considerably. the demand should be all gone by the time that incompetent idiot woody decides what he should do. No, I'm not dense. A waiting list = demand.. at least in their eyes. For some reason, not agreeing with you = being dense. People are entitled to different opinions. I feel if he wants to charge PSLs, so be it. Now, it may bite him in the ass, and ruin his demand. I have no way of knowing that, nor do you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 No, I'm not dense. A waiting list = demand.. at least in their eyes. His point is that by the time the PSL pricing is released the waiting list will be at -2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aec4 Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 His point is that by the time the PSL pricing is released the waiting list will be at -2. I highly doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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