The Sad Folks at the Chiefs Forum

[Lil Bit Special]

I was at every home too and I saw a team living up to it's potential in most cases.

Conversation over. I've tried writing something 10 times now but it keeps coming back to a personal attack. And I dont want that. I want to try and keep it above water.

If you feel they lived up to their potential, then we disagree terribly. There is no middle ground between us. There never will be.

[Lil Bit Special]

Have some damn appreciation for that.

No. He sucked as a head coach. If c0cksucker Belichick didnt walk out on us and steal a dead man's million dollars we would have been a better team than what Herm gave us.

Herm gave us mediocrity. Nothing else. Anyone with a half a brain would have gone farther with that group of players. Herm deserves no credit and will never receive any from me.

[nyjunc]

Vilma performed OKAY under Herm, but he wasn't anything great.

No matter who was his coach be it Herm, Mangini or now Shanahan, Dewayne Robertson has always been garbage and a waste of 2 1st round draft picks. He had one average season for the Jets but thats about it.

LaMont Jordan under Herm only saw the ball more than twice, if that, until the 4th quarter when the defense was tired and worn down after facing Curtis Martin all day or he' put LaMont in before the 4th if the Jets were up by 20+ points. That was it. All Jordan did in New York was capatalize after Mratin wore down the D with 25 carries. He was garbage then and he is garbage now.

Vilma was excellent as a rookie and good as a 2nd yar player, he tailed iff in the 3-4 under Mangini. Roberston was excellent in 2004 and a key to our top 5 D. he was hurt in '05 and then played out of position in the 3-4.

Conversation over. I've tried writing something 10 times now but it keeps coming back to a personal attack. And I dont want that. I want to try and keep it above water.

If you feel they lived up to their potential, then we disagree terribly. There is no middle ground between us. There never will be.

You must have thought we had SB talent then b/c the team he took over couldn't even make the playoffs pre-Herm PLUS we had a dynasty team in the division. Just making the playoffs was difficult and we won a div title on top of that.

No. He sucked as a head coach. If c0cksucker Belichick didnt walk out on us and steal a dead man's million dollars we would have been a better team than what Herm gave us.

Herm gave us mediocrity. Nothing else. Anyone with a half a brain would have gone farther with that group of players. Herm deserves no credit and will never receive any from me.

Maybe we would have been better w/ BB, if he still drafted Brady we would have been b/c no one was more responsible for NE's success than Tom Brady.

How did Herm give us mediocrity when we got better after he was hired and worse after he left?

[EM31]

Oh yeah, I get my political fix there. that place is like the wild west. it's a lot of fun.

That Hamas Jenkins guy had one of the more colorful meltdowns about Herm over there. Funny stuff.

[KSJets]

Vilma was excellent as a rookie and good as a 2nd yar player, he tailed iff in the 3-4 under Mangini. Roberston was excellent in 2004 and a key to our top 5 D. he was hurt in '05 and then played out of position in the 3-4.

You must have thought we had SB talent then b/c the team he took over couldn't even make the playoffs pre-Herm PLUS we had a dynasty team in the division. Just making the playoffs was difficult and we won a div title on top of that.

Maybe we would have been better w/ BB, if he still drafted Brady we would have been b/c no one was more responsible for NE's success than Tom Brady.

How did Herm give us mediocrity when we got better after he was hired and worse after he left?

Always with excuses.

[Lil Bit Special]

Vilma was excellent as a rookie and good as a 2nd yar player, he tailed iff in the 3-4 under Mangini. Roberston was excellent in 2004 and a key to our top 5 D. he was hurt in '05 and then played out of position in the 3-4.

You must have thought we had SB talent then b/c the team he took over couldn't even make the playoffs pre-Herm PLUS we had a dynasty team in the division. Just making the playoffs was difficult and we won a div title on top of that.

Maybe we would have been better w/ BB, if he still drafted Brady we would have been b/c no one was more responsible for NE's success than Tom Brady.

How did Herm give us mediocrity when we got better after he was hired and worse after he left?

Im done debating it with you. You will NEVER convince me Herm Edwards is a good coach. Never. I know what I saw and I didnt like it. You only look at the results we ended with and compare it to what the franchise has done in its history. I am looking at it on a game by game basis when Herm was coach here. You give him way too much credit and I give him way too little. I'm done with this. Its not worth the aggravation.

[BP]

That Hamas Jenkins guy had one of the more colorful meltdowns about Herm over there. Funny stuff.

Hamas is one of the greatest slam down smack posters I have ever seen. I hate his political view but he makes me LMFAO all the time over there.

[crackbackblock]

It's true I do like to argue but I argue for issues I believe in......

I don't care what you say Joe Namath is a HOF QB.

[MSGold12]

We heard that when Herm was here and not only did he get a job but that team gave up a pick for him. Mangini is doing a MUCH worse job here than Herm ever did. Herm is not doing a good job now but life is tougher when you have no talent esepcially at QB and on the OL. We have talent everywhere and still cannot win.

OK nyjunc,

You and I have battled over this subject and it has gotten nasty. But I am done with that. You have your opinion of Herm, I have mine and truth be told neither opinion is ever going to change. HOWEVER, I do feel the need to try (peacefully) to refute two of your main arguements as to why you feel Herm is a good HC.

Essentially, your posts have mentioned 2 things to defend herm when people argue against him. 1) That he did not take over a playoff calibar team in 2001 and 2) that his making the playoffs 3 years validates his being a good coach. Let me start with a few statements of fact....

Fact- In 1997, Tuna took over the team but still maintained the core of the 1996 team that went 1-15 (Keyshwan, Chrebet, the rebuilt OL, Lewis, Jones, Glenn, Green). He added more parts iof his own (Cox, pepper) and went 9-7. The team missed the playoffs because of two plays in the last game of the year...both of whihc were Tunas fault (the Leon Johnson int and the killer Lucas pick).

Fact- The 1998 team (wiht additions of Vinny, mawae and Martin) won 12 games, had the 2 seed and made the AFC title game.

Fact- In 1999, a year we were favorites for the SB, we lost our starting QB in week 1 yet still went 8-8 with the likes of Rick MIrer and ray Lucas at the healm (By contrast how did herms teams fare when they lost their statting QBs)?

Fact- In 2000, the team (with the same core) added FOUR #1 picks AND Lav Coles and was 9-4 before losing in Oakland and to Detroit (in a monsoon after Hall missed a chip shot ath the end) setting up a week 17 do or die v the team that eventually won the SB and had one of the best Ds of all time. We had a 14-12 lead and were on the verge of a late 1st half TD when Vinny threw a KILLER pick that was retuend for a TD and we never recovered, lost and missed the playoffs.

Why do I mention all this? To refute your two arguement...

As to the first, evven though they missed the playoffs, its not as if the team was 5-11 before Herm got there. the team that Herm took over in 2001 was essentailly the SAME team that went to the AFC title game. The same team that finshed 8-8 with no real QB. The same team that nearyl knocked off the evetual champs in 2000. The same team that had not had a sub 500 season in 4 straight years...a feat NEVER accomplised prior by ANY Jets team. In fact, some could argue it was MORE talented since they had the #1s from 2000 now as vets. The core of the team that Herm took over was ABSOLUTELY a playoff calibar team. No, they didnt "make" the playoffs in those years but it was the same core that was 30 minutes from the Super Bowl AND had added even MORE talent.

As to the second arguement you make, I again say you need to look beyond the obvious. Both the 1997 and 2000 teams were "breaks" away from being in the playoffs. Just as Herm "got the breaks" in 2001 (Halls 53 yard prayer) and 2002 (Miami's improbably collapse), the 1997 team and 2000 team didnt. If hall makes the 20 yard chip shot in 2000, Groh makes the playoffs. If Tuna doesnt have 2 guys who had 10 career throws between them tossing the ball in 97, THAT team makes the playoffs. My point is, is not as if Herm blasted his way into the playoffs. The 2001 team was a 6 seed, the 2002 team was a 3 seed only because the "won" the divison with a 9-7 record and the 2004 team backed in as a 5 seed. So the idea that Herm making the playoffs was some terrific accomplaishment and proves he was a good coach to me is a factually flawed arguement.

Look, I think the teams won in spite of Herm all those years. I think any non horrid coach could have taken those very talented teams to the playoffs and I think any good coach would have taken them further then Herm did. He was awful wiht x and o, awful on game day, and was an overrated motivator as evidenced by his teams annual slkpw starts, only playing well when their backs were gaianst it, and some horrid late season losses in HUGE games to bad teams (see Buffalo 2001 and Chicago 2002). And I wont even get into his time management, excuse making, tossing of others under the bus and his handling of both young and older players.

You like to also compare Herm to mangini or coaches of the Jets past. Truth is, thats irrelevant. JJust because the team was awful in the late 80s to the mid 90s doesnt make Herm a good coach. Joe Walton made the playoffs 2 of his first 4 years...and that was when there was no 6 seed. Mangini may very well suck...but unlike herm, he took over an ACTUAL rebuild in Herms wake. BL, Herm was lucky enugh to take over a playoff ready team built by Tuna. He rode that teams core for 5 years and managed to sneak ino the playoffs a few times with limited resukts. And in the seasons when things didnt break his way, the team was NON competitive (see 2003 and 2005). Then, once it became clear that the talent was waning and there was no one left to toss under the bus and hed have to rebuild on his own...he lied and then bolted. Sorry, IMO that resume does not make him a good coach.

So thats my refutation for your two main arguements to defend Herm. I have tried to be polite and expect the same from you. IN the end, I know I am not changing your mind, just as you are not going to change mine (or the other 99% of the boards). But if the crux of your arguement (as it seems to be) is that Herm did not take over a very good team and that his making the playoffs more then past coaches means he was a goood coach, then I'm sorry but that is a factually flawed argument and you will have to come up wioht some better, factual and more specific support for the guy if you want to convince anyone.

And PLEASE do not retort with "he made it and they did not, end of story". I spent a lot of time on this post and dont want to hear that. Like I said, I am trying to be polite and respectfully disagree with your position on this issue because I think, if you stop and think about it clearly, you will see by the above that the basis for your arguement to support herm is not very strong.

[StillerPaul]

OK nyjunc,

You and I have battled over this subject and it has gotten nasty. But I am done with that. You have your opinion of Herm, I have mine and truth be told neither opinion is ever going to change. HOWEVER, I do feel the need to try (peacefully) to refute two of your main arguements as to why you feel Herm is a good HC.

Essentially, your posts have mentioned 2 things to defend herm when people argue against him. 1) That he did not take over a playoff calibar team in 2001 and 2) that his making the playoffs 3 years validates his being a good coach. Let me start with a few statements of fact....

Fact- In 1997, Tuna took over the team but still maintained the core of the 1996 team that went 1-15 (Keyshwan, Chrebet, the rebuilt OL, Lewis, Jones, Glenn, Green). He added more parts iof his own (Cox, pepper) and went 9-7. The team missed the playoffs because of two plays in the last game of the year...both of whihc were Tunas fault (the Leon Johnson int and the killer Lucas pick).

Fact- The 1998 team (wiht additions of Vinny, mawae and Martin) won 12 games, had the 2 seed and made the AFC title game.

Fact- In 1999, a year we were favorites for the SB, we lost our starting QB in week 1 yet still went 8-8 with the likes of Rick MIrer and ray Lucas at the healm (By contrast how did herms teams fare when they lost their statting QBs)?

Fact- In 2000, the team (with the same core) added FOUR #1 picks AND Lav Coles and was 9-4 before losing in Oakland and to Detroit (in a monsoon after Hall missed a chip shot ath the end) setting up a week 17 do or die v the team that eventually won the SB and had one of the best Ds of all time. We had a 14-12 lead and were on the verge of a late 1st half TD when Vinny threw a KILLER pick that was retuend for a TD and we never recovered, lost and missed the playoffs.

Why do I mention all this? To refute your two arguement...

As to the first, evven though they missed the playoffs, its not as if the team was 5-11 before Herm got there. the team that Herm took over in 2001 was essentailly the SAME team that went to the AFC title game. The same team that finshed 8-8 with no real QB. The same team that nearyl knocked off the evetual champs in 2000. The same team that had not had a sub 500 season in 4 straight years...a feat NEVER accomplised prior by ANY Jets team. In fact, some could argue it was MORE talented since they had the #1s from 2000 now as vets. The core of the team that Herm took over was ABSOLUTELY a playoff calibar team. No, they didnt "make" the playoffs in those years but it was the same core that was 30 minutes from the Super Bowl AND had added even MORE talent.

As to the second arguement you make, I again say you need to look beyond the obvious. Both the 1997 and 2000 teams were "breaks" away from being in the playoffs. Just as Herm "got the breaks" in 2001 (Halls 53 yard prayer) and 2002 (Miami's improbably collapse), the 1997 team and 2000 team didnt. If hall makes the 20 yard chip shot in 2000, Groh makes the playoffs. If Tuna doesnt have 2 guys who had 10 career throws between them tossing the ball in 97, THAT team makes the playoffs. My point is, is not as if Herm blasted his way into the playoffs. The 2001 team was a 6 seed, the 2002 team was a 3 seed only because the "won" the divison with a 9-7 record and the 2004 team backed in as a 5 seed. So the idea that Herm making the playoffs was some terrific accomplaishment and proves he was a good coach to me is a factually flawed arguement.

Look, I think the teams won in spite of Herm all those years. I think any non horrid coach could have taken those very talented teams to the playoffs and I think any good coach would have taken them further then Herm did. He was awful wiht x and o, awful on game day, and was an overrated motivator as evidenced by his teams annual slkpw starts, only playing well when their backs were gaianst it, and some horrid late season losses in HUGE games to bad teams (see Buffalo 2001 and Chicago 2002). And I wont even get into his time management, excuse making, tossing of others under the bus and his handling of both young and older players.

You like to also compare Herm to mangini or coaches of the Jets past. Truth is, thats irrelevant. JJust because the team was awful in the late 80s to the mid 90s doesnt make Herm a good coach. Joe Walton made the playoffs 2 of his first 4 years...and that was when there was no 6 seed. Mangini may very well suck...but unlike herm, he took over an ACTUAL rebuild in Herms wake. BL, Herm was lucky enugh to take over a playoff ready team built by Tuna. He rode that teams core for 5 years and managed to sneak ino the playoffs a few times with limited resukts. And in the seasons when things didnt break his way, the team was NON competitive (see 2003 and 2005). Then, once it became clear that the talent was waning and there was no one left to toss under the bus and hed have to rebuild on his own...he lied and then bolted. Sorry, IMO that resume does not make him a good coach.

So thats my refutation for your two main arguements to defend Herm. I have tried to be polite and expect the same from you. IN the end, I know I am not changing your mind, just as you are not going to change mine (or the other 99% of the boards). But if the crux of your arguement (as it seems to be) is that Herm did not take over a very good team and that his making the playoffs more then past coaches means he was a goood coach, then I'm sorry but that is a factually flawed argument and you will have to come up wioht some better, factual and more specific support for the guy if you want to convince anyone.

And PLEASE do not retort with "he made it and they did not, end of story". I spent a lot of time on this post and dont want to hear that. Like I said, I am trying to be polite and respectfully disagree with your position on this issue because I think, if you stop and think about it clearly, you will see by the above that the basis for your arguement to support herm is not very strong.

This is yet another example of why i come here so often. I don't even have to agree with the opinion, but thats alot of thought and knowledge put into it and a very good, thought provoking post IMO. Kudos MSGold.

[Thai Jet]

Herm sucks. You can't really defend that.

End of story.

That's the bottom line.

[KSJets]

This is yet another example of why i come here so often. I don't even have to agree with the opinion, but thats alot of thought and knowledge put into it and a very good, thought provoking post IMO. Kudos MSGold.

That was a great post by MSGold, but unfortunately, he just wasted all of his time writing that up.

[bfett81]

What's amazing is that for some reason a lot of people thought Herm would be the right guy to lead a ground-up rebuild in Kansas City. He has failed miserably. The only facet of the team that is even decent is special teams. And we STILL don't have a kicker. Herm CUT our decent kicker, Lawrence Tynes, and replaced him with nothing but **** since.

[nyjunc]

Fact- In 1997, Tuna took over the team but still maintained the core of the 1996 team that went 1-15 (Keyshwan, Chrebet, the rebuilt OL, Lewis, Jones, Glenn, Green). He added more parts iof his own (Cox, pepper) and went 9-7. The team missed the playoffs because of two plays in the last game of the year...both of whihc were Tunas fault (the Leon Johnson int and the killer Lucas pick).

Cox wasn't added until 1998 but I think we all can agree that team had alot mroe talent than the 1 win they got in 1997. Parcells isn't stupid, he knew he wasn't walking into a talented squad.

Fact- In 1999, a year we were favorites for the SB, we lost our starting QB in week 1 yet still went 8-8 with the likes of Rick MIrer and ray Lucas at the healm (By contrast how did herms teams fare when they lost their statting QBs)?

Would have made the playoffs had Parcells had a decent backup QB.

Fact- In 2000, the team (with the same core) added FOUR #1 picks AND Lav Coles and was 9-4 before losing in Oakland and to Detroit (in a monsoon after Hall missed a chip shot ath the end) setting up a week 17 do or die v the team that eventually won the SB and had one of the best Ds of all time. We had a 14-12 lead and were on the verge of a late 1st half TD when Vinny threw a KILLER pick that was retuend for a TD and we never recovered, lost and missed the playoffs.

We got off to bad starts all the time, Vinny's ability to lead us back had us at 9-4 but it caught up w/ us late in the year. if not for Vinny we woulnd't have come close to 9 wins so although that killer pic did us in in week 17 we wouldn't have had close to 9 wins w/o him leading us back against GB, Buf, NE, Mia, TB,...

As to the first, evven though they missed the playoffs, its not as if the team was 5-11 before Herm got there. the team that Herm took over in 2001 was essentailly the SAME team that went to the AFC title game. The same team that finshed 8-8 with no real QB. The same team that nearyl knocked off the evetual champs in 2000. The same team that had not had a sub 500 season in 4 straight years...a feat NEVER accomplised prior by ANY Jets team. In fact, some could argue it was MORE talented since they had the #1s from 2000 now as vets. The core of the team that Herm took over was ABSOLUTELY a playoff calibar team. No, they didnt "make" the playoffs in those years but it was the same core that was 30 minutes from the Super Bowl AND had added even MORE talent.

Show me where I said we stunk pre-Herm? I said we missed the playoffs 2 straight years and 12 of 14 years as a franchise then made it 2 straight w/ Hrem and 3 of 4. I love how parcells gets the credit for coming in and winning w/ Coslet/Carroll/Kotite players but Herm doesn't get any credit for winning w/ the guys BP/groh left behind.

As to the second arguement you make, I again say you need to look beyond the obvious. Both the 1997 and 2000 teams were "breaks" away from being in the playoffs. Just as Herm "got the breaks" in 2001 (Halls 53 yard prayer) and 2002 (Miami's improbably collapse), the 1997 team and 2000 team didnt. If hall makes the 20 yard chip shot in 2000, Groh makes the playoffs. If Tuna doesnt have 2 guys who had 10 career throws between them tossing the ball in 97, THAT team makes the playoffs. My point is, is not as if Herm blasted his way into the playoffs. The 2001 team was a 6 seed, the 2002 team was a 3 seed only because the "won" the divison with a 9-7 record and the 2004 team backed in as a 5 seed. So the idea that Herm making the playoffs was some terrific accomplaishment and proves he was a good coach to me is a factually flawed arguement.

The 1997 team I agree but the 2000 team was very lucky to even be close to 9 wins. Hrems teams got it doen when they needed to to make the postseason. They won in Oakland for the first time since we were the Titans(by the way, Herm is still the ONLY Jets HC to ever win in oakland) while Oak was battling for a 2 seed(which eventually sot them having to go to NE), they beat up NE on a Sunday Night in NE in 2002(NE wouldn't lose at home again until 2005) then they humiliated mr. arm strength and the packers who were playing for homefield advantage throughout the playoffs. They didn't screw it up like '97 or 2000.

Look, I think the teams won in spite of Herm all those years. I think any non horrid coach could have taken those very talented teams to the playoffs and I think any good coach would have taken them further then Herm did. He was awful wiht x and o, awful on game day, and was an overrated motivator as evidenced by his teams annual slkpw starts, only playing well when their backs were gaianst it, and some horrid late season losses in HUGE games to bad teams (see Buffalo 2001 and Chicago 2002). And I wont even get into his time management, excuse making, tossing of others under the bus and his handling of both young and older players.

What about the horrid late season losses in '97 to Indy and Buffalo? What about the hrorid losses in '98 to Bal, SL and Indy? What about the horrid late season loss to detroit in 2000? Was Herm responsible for those as well? That happens alto, good teams bounce back- we bounced back in '98, '01 and '02 but not '97 and '00.

The problem is you guys hold Herm to one standard and others to another standard. If the Jets win it's in spite of Herm, when they lose it's b/c of him. When he wins it's b/c he had BP/Groh's players but when Mangini wins w/ Herm/TBs players it's b/c of Mangini. If you guys were consistent in your evaluations you'd come to understand he wasn't nearly as bad as you think he is. I have never called the man gerat b/c he's not but he's a GOOD coach and did a good job here that is unappreciated by jet fans just like Chad is now unappreciated by Jet fans- ever wonder how a team w/ a bad HC and bad QB won so many games and made so many PO apps?

What's amazing is that for some reason a lot of people thought Herm would be the right guy to lead a ground-up rebuild in Kansas City. He has failed miserably. The only facet of the team that is even decent is special teams. And we STILL don't have a kicker. Herm CUT our decent kicker, Lawrence Tynes, and replaced him with nothing but **** since.

The problem is your GM who has been GM for almost 20 years and hasn't won a playoff game in FIFTEEN years! The team is in complete rebuilding phase, how can you win w/ no QB and no OL?

[Jet Moses]

As to the second arguement you make, I again say you need to look beyond the obvious. Both the 1997 and 2000 teams were "breaks" away from being in the playoffs. Just as Herm "got the breaks" in 2001 (Halls 53 yard prayer) and 2002 (Miami's improbably collapse), the 1997 team and 2000 team didnt. If hall makes the 20 yard chip shot in 2000, Groh makes the playoffs.

Absolutely correct. Also add the fact that the Jets had the Raiders September '01 matchup moved to December which benefited them due to the fact that with the exception of 2004 (an anomaly) Herm's teams both with the Jets and Chiefs always start the season unprepared.

Look, I think the teams won in spite of Herm all those years.

Agreed.

I think any non horrid coach could have taken those very talented teams to the playoffs and I think any good coach would have taken them further then Herm did.

If Woody wasn't pressured by the NFL to hire Herm, and all he did was keep Dan Henning or any other coach on Groh's staff and promote them, and just kept the same exact team, I think they would have done better, and the Patriots probably would not have won the SB in 2001.

Just my opinion.

He was awful wiht x and o, awful on game day, and was an overrated motivator as evidenced by his teams annual slkpw starts, only playing well when their backs were gaianst it, and some horrid late season losses in HUGE games to bad teams (see Buffalo 2001 and Chicago 2002). And I wont even get into his time management, excuse making, tossing of others under the bus and his handling of both young and older players.

You can also throw in his total lack of accountability and delegating blame while keeping any credit whether justified or not.

You like to also compare Herm to mangini or coaches of the Jets past. Truth is, thats irrelevant. JJust because the team was awful in the late 80s to the mid 90s doesnt make Herm a good coach. Joe Walton made the playoffs 2 of his first 4 years...and that was when there was no 6 seed. Mangini may very well suck...but unlike herm, he took over an ACTUAL rebuild in Herms wake. BL, Herm was lucky enugh to take over a playoff ready team built by Tuna.

And you can also say he took over a pretty good Chiefs team (and has completely mismanaged and destroyed them in three seasons).

Fact is, most first time coaches take over historically bad teams, and that's why those teams have such huge turnover. Herm always stepped into an ideal situation, and still couldn't get the job done.

He rode that teams core for 5 years and managed to sneak ino the playoffs a few times with limited resukts. And in the seasons when things didnt break his way, the team was NON competitive (see 2003 and 2005). Then, once it became clear that the talent was waning and there was no one left to toss under the bus and hed have to rebuild on his own...he lied and then bolted. Sorry, IMO that resume does not make him a good coach.

I have told NYJUNC before that if you make years the Y axis, and record the X axis, and then connect the dots on the graph to form a line, you will see that over time, a Herman Edwards team will get worse. 2004 of course is an anomaly, as there are no other periods in the timeline that went in the "up" direction.

So thats my refutation for your two main arguements to defend Herm. I have tried to be polite and expect the same from you. IN the end, I know I am not changing your mind, just as you are not going to change mine (or the other 99% of the boards). But if the crux of your arguement (as it seems to be) is that Herm did not take over a very good team and that his making the playoffs more then past coaches means he was a goood coach, then I'm sorry but that is a factually flawed argument and you will have to come up wioht some better, factual and more specific support for the guy if you want to convince anyone.

I've sat through Herman Edwards coached games. Play by play, game by game, season by season, and in that light, Herman Edwards is a terrible football coach, and I would also like to add he is a phoney *sshole as a person.

And PLEASE do not retort with "he made it and they did not, end of story". I spent a lot of time on this post and dont want to hear that. Like I said, I am trying to be polite and respectfully disagree with your position on this issue because I think, if you stop and think about it clearly, you will see by the above that the basis for your arguement to support herm is not very strong

If I never watched NFL football games, and didn't know what a good team looked like, or what a well coached team looked like, and all I had was a book of stats and records, and I didn't know who anybody was or had any measurement or foundation of relavance to make comparisons and draw conclusions, they yeah, I could walk away from that data saying that "This guy Herman Edwards took a Jets team to the playoffs 3 out of 5 years" and make an assumption that he must have been a good coach.

But that isn't reality, is it?