Matt39 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 How exactly does a fan measure will? OPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Both. Obviously.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Huh? This idea that Chad was destined for greatness if not for injuries makes no sense to me. First off, the fact is that his fragile body is just as much a part of Chad pennington the person as is his accuracy with the football. Further he plays scared, always had and always will. Scared QB's that fold under pressure don't become great QB's they just don't... Injuries AND Chad's timid mindset undermined him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Its the will, not the skill. That man is out of work, so how did it work for him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 How exactly does a fan measure will? Seriously? Clearly there's no objective measurement, but when Sanchez lowered his head near the goal line determined to break the goal line, his will to score on that play was exteremly evident to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 You mean the Paul Hackett safety valve. That is where that was learned and drilled in. Paul Hackett was all about not making mistakes and taking what the defense gave you in small bites. That is where that came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Injuries AND Chad's timid mindset undermined him. he's a true coach on the field. Too bad it's marty schott/herman edwards/mangina variety of coaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Seriously? Clearly there's no objective measurement, but when Sanchez lowered his head near the goal line determined to break the goal line, his will to score on that play was exteremly evident to me. I witnessed Chad doing the same-sacrificing body (Buffalo injury) instead of sliding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I witnessed Chad doing the same-sacrificing body (Buffalo injury) instead of sliding. I wasn't talking about body sacrificing.. Besides that play looked more awkward then anything else.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I wasn't talking about body sacrificing.. Besides that play looked more swkward then anything else.. Since I don't understand your answer there, I will again pose the original question-How is a fan to measure "will"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verde Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Starts around the 2:00 mark.... yes it was....about 2:15 seconds in. yes 2min in not the play where he got jacked up near goalline I saw the clip.. it didn't look like a bad hit or fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 You mean the Paul Hackett safety valve. That is where that was learned and drilled in. Paul Hackett was all about not making mistakes and taking what the defense gave you in small bites. That is where that came from. Ah yes, and the excuses come out again. It was all Paul Hackett's fault. Then why has he done the same thing under every other offensive coordinator he's ever played under in the NFL? I'm pretty sure Paul Hackett wasn't encouraging Chad to dump off to his FB 2 yards behind the LOS on a 3rd and 8 when he had called a played for all of the WRs to run to or beyond the first down markers. Besides, under Hackett Chad had by far his most NFL success in 2002. The only other year that came close was last year in a gimmick offense that intentionally took their starting QB off the field with regularity, not exactly a testament to their faith in Chadwick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 You mean the Paul Hackett safety valve. That is where that was learned and drilled in. Paul Hackett was all about not making mistakes and taking what the defense gave you in small bites. That is where that came from. that's such load of bull. Herman edwards of all people called chad out for being timid in 2001 training camp.. Jamarcus Russel is being coached by Hackett now.. that dude wings it all over the place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Ah yes, and the excuses come out again. It was all Paul Hackett's fault. Then why has he done the same thing under every other offensive coordinator he's ever played under in the NFL? I'm pretty sure Paul Hackett wasn't encouraging Chad to dump off to his FB 2 yards behind the LOS on a 3rd and 8 when he had called a played for all of the WRs to run to or beyond the first down markers. Besides, under Hackett Chad had by far his most NFL success in 2002. The only other year that came close was last year in a gimmick offense that intentionally took their starting QB off the field with regularity, not exactly a testament to their faith in Chadwick. Not making excuses. Paul Hackett DRILLED that into his QBs. They used to talk about how in training camp, Chad would throw deep, get picked, and Hackett would come back and talk about "taking what they give you" "Make the right decisions" It was a mantra for that staff, as they lived on plus minus ratio. Just telling you where this mindset developed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 You mean the Paul Hackett safety valve. That is where that was learned and drilled in. Paul Hackett was all about not making mistakes and taking what the defense gave you in small bites. That is where that came from. I'll let CTM & Bleeding argue otherwise since even Herm in the 2001 preseason criticized Chad for playing it safe. But it doesn't matter where it started. Chad had a timid mindset playing the game. If it was Hackett's fault, so be it. It was still Chad who took it well beyond Hackett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Huh? This idea that Chad was destined for greatness if not for injuries makes no sense to me. First off, the fact is that his fragile body is just as much a part of Chad pennington the person as is his accuracy with the football. Further he plays scared, always had and always will. Scared QB's that fold under pressure don't become great QB's they just don't... Ehhh, we dont know that with time and an injury free career that he might have got a little more confidence and changed that aspect of his game. I never said he would have been graet, its just a clear "what if". What if, Chad Pennington didnt have a fragile frame and played a healthy career? He might be the same, slightly better or really damn good. And I do think playing for conservative coaches had a factor into this...how much, who knows, but its definitely a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Since I don't understand your answer there, I will again pose the original question-How is a fan to measure "will"? Ok, so in the biggest play in last weeks game 3rd and 6 dolphins driving, hot Mannign across the field, 3 minutes left. A fg won't cut it. Chad, the suppsoed warrior leader, checks out of a pass and to a run.. Yellow. Add that to the constant dump offs, the fear of throwing longer unless it's wide open, how softly he passes the ball, and his own words which frequently reveal a yellow mindset (ie. last year his goal going into a home playoff game against a wild card team was "to keep it close and see what happens in the 4th quarter; saying things like eliminating mistakes is his biggest goal out there) and it's pretty clear to anyone watching through non-rose colored glasses what his MO is.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Not making excuses. Paul Hackett DRILLED that into his QBs. They used to talk about how in training camp, Chad would throw deep, get picked, and Hackett would come back and talk about "taking what they give you" "Make the right decisions" It was a mantra for that staff, as they lived on plus minus ratio. Just telling you where this mindset developed I would agree. Just look at Jason Campbell now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Not making excuses. Paul Hackett DRILLED that into his QBs. They used to talk about how in training camp, Chad would throw deep, get picked, and Hackett would come back and talk about "taking what they give you" "Make the right decisions" It was a mantra for that staff, as they lived on plus minus ratio. Just telling you where this mindset developed Link? I don't remember that at all. I remember Herm chastising chad publically for playing like a girl scout.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Link? I don't remember that at all. I remember Herm chastising chad publically for playing like a girl scout.. Wait, Herm criticized someone for being conservative? Really? I remember them criticizing his "decision making" being more "decisive". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Wait, Herm criticized someone for being conservative? Really? I remember them criticizing his "decision making" being more "decisive". If memory serves, stop thinking so much and just wing it sometimes. And that he'd never be great if he didn't. Stop thinking so much obviously meaning stop being a ***** an worrying about making mistakes.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Chad's conservative nature continued even when the Jets hired OC Mike Heimerdinger, who was part of a Titan offense that like to go vertical with the passing game. Chad was probably more of the reason for Paul Hackett's downfall than Hackett was more of a reason for his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 If memory serves, stop thinking so much and just wing it sometimes. And that he'd never be great if he didn't. Stop thinking so much obviously meaning stop being a ***** an worrying about making mistakes.. Fair enough.... How does this measure "will". Or can we just politely back off this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Fair enough.... How does this measure "will". Or can we just politely back off this? How about this: In the Indy-Miami game last Monday night, the Dolphins had an opportunity to go for the throat in the 4th quarter. They had a 3rd & 6 in Indy territory. Chad elected to audible to a run play rather than go for the first down through the air, and the Phins came up short. Miami kicked a FG, Indy scored a TD on the ensuing drive, and with 3:15 on the clock, Chad ran the sorriest 2-minute drill I have ever seen. You can't "measure" will, but the eye test tells me Chad Pennington lacks, and has always lacked, the killer instinct necessary to be an elite QB in this league. The results have always been mediocrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Sorry, it was 2001 training camp AND 2002 mini camp: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/29/sports/pro-football-thinking-quarterback-may-think-too-much.html One of Chad Pennington's best attributes is his intelligence. Right now, it may also be his greatest limitation. After a three-day minicamp that was intended to be an immersion program for Pennington while Vinny Testaverde recovered from foot surgery, the reviews of Pennington's performance at quarterback were decidedly mixed. During a news conference in which he praised several undrafted free agents and players who were trying out for the Jets, Coach Herman Edwards was muted today in his assessment of Pennington, who took the snaps with the first-team offense. ''At times he made some nice throws,'' Edwards said. ''And at times he's too analytical.'' Edwards's prescription for Pennington is to just throw it. Pennington, the 18th pick over all in the 2000 N.F.L. draft, is the son of a coach, and Edwards seems to believe that his thoughtful approach to the game is limiting his progress. Edwards made nearly identical comments about Pennington last year, but the spotlight is increasingly on Pennington. It is widely believed that the Jets hope Pennington, 25, will be able to take over the starting job from Testaverde for the 2003 season. And so Edwards's comments today were particularly interesting, especially because Pennington seemed pleased with his progress. ''It's not even close, the progress this year to last year,'' Pennington said. ''I feel I'm leaps and bounds ahead of where I was last year, being more comfortable and decisive, and taking charge of the offense. The biggest area I'm pleased with is being decisive. There's no hesitancy. Last year you could tell I was trying to be too perfect. Now I'm playing backyard ball.'' Pennington noted later that he still had to be more consistent in his decision-making and that he remained a bit hesitant on some plays. But the Jets are expecting him to make a big leap this year because he will be working with the same offense and the same coordinator for the second straight season. During minicamp, Pennington did seem to be throwing crisper passes. But Edwards compared Pennington's controlled style and the bombs-away approach of the third-string quarterback Tory Woodbury, who worked as a wide receiver last season. Woodbury did not complete many passes, but he showed a fearlessness that Edwards liked. ''Tory doesn't know enough at quarterback at this point, so every time he goes back he tries to throw it as far as he can,'' Edwards said. ''Sometimes he's throwing rifle shots over the batting cage. When he doesn't see it, he just takes off. The problem with Chad is, he's been a quarterback all his life. He's so analytical. Just drop back and throw the guy the ball. If he throws it 10 feet over the guy's head, who cares? He doesn't want to make a mistake. He worries about making a mistake rather than 'I'm going to make a play.' '' Edwards cited one play in which Pennington showed a glimmer of what the coaches would like to see. He completed a pass down the center of the field, and Edwards said he thought, ''Build on that.'' The Jets hope he will when the team reconvenes for 12 full-squad practices in May and June. Edwards praised Pennington's knowledge of the offense and noted that, at times, he told the running backs where they were supposed to line up. But then the coaches want instinct to take over. Edwards said Testaverde had the same analytical approach but Testaverde, even at 38, has an extraordinarily powerful arm so that, even if he makes the wrong read, he can still get the ball to a spot where other quarterbacks cannot. And if this is who Pennington is? ''Then he'll probably never be great,'' Edwards said. ''But that doesn't mean he can't be a good quarterback. I always tell players, 'Don't play to be good, play to be great.' That will be his problem. All the great ones you've ever seen play, they've got a swagger. They don't go by the numbers. He's got to figure out what he is. He's got a lot of attributes; he's a conscientious guy. He's got the makings of it. But then he's got to do it.'' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 How about this: In the Indy-Miami game last Monday night, the Dolphins had an opportunity to go for the throat in the 4th quarter. They had a 3rd & 6 in Indy territory. Chad elected to audible to a run play rather than go for the first down through the air, and the Phins came up short. Miami kicked a FG, Indy scored a TD on the ensuing drive, and with 3:15 on the clock, Chad ran the sorriest 2-minute drill I have ever seen. You can't "measure" will, but the eye test tells me Chad Pennington lacks, and has always lacked, the killer instinct necessary to be an elite QB in this league. The results have always been mediocrity. We agree, it is silly for fans to measure "will". We can move on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Fair enough.... How does this measure "will". Or can we just politely back off this? No. First off, I didn't bring "will" into it. You did. I said he plays scared, which is blatantly obvious just from the terrified look on his face in pressure situations. Beyond that there's Romanowski saying he was scared in OIakland 2002 , Herms comments in 2001 and 2002 training camps, and hundreds of times in which he threw a 4 yard pass on third and 8 to back up nmy POV.. If you haven't seen it in 8 eyars of watching the guy, nothing I say will change that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Sorry, it was 2001 training camp AND 2002 mini camp: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/29/sports/pro-football-thinking-quarterback-may-think-too-much.html I only wish that Edwards coached with the mentality he preached in the papers. Do you believe that is the same coach that said those things that you saw in the Pitt playoff game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 No. First off, I didn't bring "will" into it. You did. I said he plays scared, which is blatantly obvious just from the terrified look on his face in pressure situations. Beyond that there's Romanowski saying he was scared in OIakland 2002 , Herms comments in 2001 and 2002 training camps, and hundreds of times in which he threw a 4 yard pass on third and 8 to back up nmy POV.. If you haven't seen it in 8 eyars of watching the guy, nothing I say will change that.. That fans think they can read a players face is cute. Bill Romanowski? Is he really the player you want to derive worthwhile quotes from? I said "will" or "ability" You said "both" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 We agree, it is silly for fans to measure "will". We can move on I never said it was silly, you misread. My point is that, while no quantitative measure of "will" exists, there are certain qualitative and situational pieces of evidence that, over time, determines if a player is in fact a P.U.S.S.Y. Chad is one. I'm not sure how you can argue against that anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Sorry, it was 2001 training camp AND 2002 mini camp: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/29/sports/pro-football-thinking-quarterback-may-think-too-much.html Holy crap, I have never so much agreed with something Herman Edwards said. That scares the hell out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I only wish that Edwards coached with the mentality he preached in the papers. Do you believe that is the same coach that said those things that you saw in the Pitt playoff game? Haha, touche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I never said it was silly, you misread. My point is that, while no quantitative measure of "will" exists, there are certain qualitative and situational pieces of evidence that, over time, determines if a player is in fact a P.U.S.S.Y. Chad is one. I'm not sure how you can argue against that anymore. Let me throw 11 guys trying to rip your head off, and see how you "quantify" being a "*****". Chad did not fulfill the hopes of Jets fans here. He can only take a team so far. He is limited in what he can physically do. Those are all facts. That fans want to pile onto those facts and attack someone's character as being timid, is quite sad. You guys must be a heap of fun when a girlfriend dumps you. I am suer she becomes a "slut" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Let me throw 11 guys trying to rip your head off, and see how you "quantify" being a "*****". That would be relevant if the discussion was about "who's a bigger *****, me or Pennington?". We're comparing him to the rest of the NFL's QB's here. Pennington is on the low end of the toughness continuum (mentally AND physically) compared to his peers. That absolutely cannot be disputed at this point. .....And that's enough Pennington discussion for me. His career is likely over, the Jets are 3-0. Rehashing this topic just isn't fun anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Let me throw 11 guys trying to rip your head off, and see how you "quantify" being a "*****". Chad did not fulfill the hopes of Jets fans here. He can only take a team so far. He is limited in what he can physically do. Those are all facts. That fans want to pile onto those facts and attack someone's character as being timid, is quite sad. You guys must be a heap of fun when a girlfriend dumps you. I am suer she becomes a "slut" Whoa, whoa... lets just settle down there for a moment. I don't like what you're implying here. Many of us were saying all of these things long before the Jets finally booted Chad's ass to the curb and he went off to the Dolphins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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