Denver Post - Melo to Knicks a Done Deal

[JetsFanInDenver]

Worse that 2 games over .500?

I would not be surprised if they are worse than 2 games over .500 rest of the way.

1. The reason being with this trade we essentially just overhauled 70% of the roster. It will take time for the new guys to jell.

2. And essentially we added offensive weapons. But offense was never the problem. It was the lousy defense. And the centerpiece to this trade is a guy that has never been known to play defense. Believe me, i have watched him play in person a quite a few occassions. And so we got even lousier defensively.

3. Loss of Raymond Felton. Not so sure how this factor plays out. But he sure was a great fit for D'Antoni's offense. We will see if Billups ( who i love to see play) can fit the bill in D'Antoni's system.

That's why it would not surprise me if we struggle to stay above .500.

Now as die-hard Knicks fan i hope i am dead wrong. Unfortunately do not feel that way right now.

[JetsFanInDenver]

Were the Knicks doing something spectacular that I missed in the first half of the season? Are they secretly 20 games over .500 and some of us just don't know about it?

As a die hard, long suffering, very tortured Knicks fan i can tell you 2 games above .500 feels like Nirvana!

Not sure about other Knicks fans, but that's just the way i feel.

[RutgersJetFan]

3. Loss of Raymond Felton. Not so sure how this factor plays out. But he sure was a great fit for D'Antoni's offense. We will see if Billups ( who i love to see play) can fit the bill in D'Antoni's system.

Denver's 1st in PPG and 3rd in pace. I think we'll be just fine.

[RutgersJetFan]

It will take time for the new guys to jell.

Who. The. ****. Cares. It's not like the current guys were gellin like a felon. You're on crack if you didn't think offense was a problem at all. It was non-existent when Amare wasn't on the floor, hence the toe problems and why D'Antoni practically had to run him into the ground.

[Klecko73isGod]

As a die hard, long suffering, very tortured Knicks fan i can tell you 2 games above .500 feels like Nirvana!

Not sure about other Knicks fans, but that's just the way i feel.

I'm a die hard Knick fan and I want more than just 2 games above .500.

I think the mistake most people who are denigrating this trade are making is thinking that this is to make the Knicks better now. That's not the point of this trade at all. The Knicks weren't winning a championship this year with what they had so its not like they traded away a potential championship to get a superstar.

This move was made for the long term - for next year, and the year after that, and the year after that.

The Knicks now have two HUGE building blocks plus the flexibility to add a third in Deron Williams, Chris Paul or Dwight Howard. If the Knicks add any one of those guys they will have a big three that is better than Miami's because they are all significantly better than Chris Bosh and they compliment each other better than Miami's big three.

The bottom line is the Knicks were not seriously competing against the Celtics, Heat or Bulls with what they had. Now that will definitely be a possibility in the very near future.

[JohnnyHector]

No, he's really not. He's a 7 footer basically, who can fill it up. He's not versatile at all. He wants to face the basket and shoot the jumper. He can put someone on his back, because he's tall. He's not drop stepping anyone, nor does have any other post move other then backing you down to shoot the turn around. He absolutely can not put the ball on the floor and I have no idea where you got that from. If he's ever scored using more than 3 dribbles, I'd be shocked. He can rebound because he's tall.

So basically, he's exactly how I described. He a lights out shooter who is hard to guard because he's tall. He's essentially a 7 foot JJ Reddick. We'll just have to agree to disagree on what he provides...he's a good player, I never said different. But my point remains the same, he's the only example of a Euro that you can build a team around. Sure there are plenty of great player without a title but are you putting Dirk in Sir Charles and Malone status?

I never said he had elite post moves like McHale or Olajuwon, but he has the ability to score and create with his back to the basket. There are plenty of guys about whom you can't say the same (see: Amar'e). And he can't put the ball on the floor? How many career points has the guy scored by driving from the high post or beyond the arc and getting to the rack for either the basket or a foul (or both)? A 7-footer doesn't need more than 2-3 dribbles to get to the hoop from those spots, so I won't dispute that statement, but it's meaningless anyhow.

As far as comparing him to Malone and Barkley, he's not far off. In fact, he and Malone have a bunch of similarities... both won MVP awards they didn't deserve to (Malone winning over Jordan was the least defensible of all-time) and both have come up small in big spots in the playoffs. The main difference is that Dirk didn't have the benefit of playing with another HoF player for the majority of his career.

PS - a 7-foot JJ Reddick is just an absolutely awful comparison.

And Horry was a good player who became a role guy toward the end of his career. And since him and Steve Kerr are the only guys brought to the table...I'd say my point is still correct that role players are a dime a dozen. Especially the type the Knicks traded away.

I'm not complaining about the guys the Knicks gave away, but in general, role players are absolutely not a dime a dozen, as if they're all interchangeable.

[JustInFudge]

I never said he had elite post moves like McHale or Olajuwon, but he has the ability to score and create with his back to the basket. There are plenty of guys about whom you can't say the same (see: Amar'e). And he can't put the ball on the floor? How many career points has the guy scored by driving from the high post or beyond the arc and getting to the rack for either the basket or a foul (or both)? A 7-footer doesn't need more than 2-3 dribbles to get to the hoop from those spots, so I won't dispute that statement, but it's meaningless anyhow.

As far as comparing him to Malone and Barkley, he's not far off. In fact, he and Malone have a bunch of similarities... both won MVP awards they didn't deserve to (Malone winning over Jordan was the least defensible of all-time) and both have come up small in big spots in the playoffs. The main difference is that Dirk didn't have the benefit of playing with another HoF player for the majority of his career.

PS - a 7-foot JJ Reddick is just an absolutely awful comparison.

I'm not complaining about the guys the Knicks gave away, but in general, role players are absolutely not a dime a dozen, as if they're all interchangeable.

We'll just disagree here my friend.

[JetsFanInDenver]

Who. The. ****. Cares. It's not like the current guys were gellin like a felon. You're on crack if you didn't think offense was a problem at all. It was non-existent when Amare wasn't on the floor, hence the toe problems and why D'Antoni practically had to run him into the ground.

I stopped reading the post at that point.

Thanks for your reasoned insight!

[JohnnyHector]

We'll just disagree here my friend.

As a final point, I just looked out of curiosity and in his book, Simmons - someone who has heaped a fair amount of abuse on both Dirk and Malone - had them ranked as follows in his all-time HoF pyramid:

Dirk - 39

Barkley - 19

Malone - 18

[JustInFudge]

As a final point, I just looked out of curiosity and in his book, Simmons - someone who has heaped a fair amount of abuse on both Dirk and Malone - had them ranked as follows in his all-time HoF pyramid:

Dirk - 39

Barkley - 19

Malone - 18

He thinks Dirk is the 39th best player of all time? Interesting. And again, I think Dirk is a good player...but he's the lone example of a Euro you can build around, which was my original point.

[dolphann4life]

I assume most Knicks fans are Yankees fans....This isn't baseball where you can buy your roster with an endless bankroll.

Melo will sign an extension.....who knows what the numbers will be, but he wanted $21 mil and he doesn't know anything about a team so he would not likely sign for less even if it meant a possible NBA title.

With a cap likely to be around $52 mil, they will not be able to offer anywhere near what those elite players will demand. Yes, the Knicks can go over the cap, but not in the current situation. Exceeding the cap is allowed when keeping your own players, signing rookies, or signing players to league minimums. There is also a Mid Level Exception.

Lets assume the new cap is $53 million. The Knicks will likely have $40 tied up with Melo and Amar'e. They have another $5 mil committed to players not in the trade and Turiaff has a $4 mil player option. Assume that Turiaff declines the option, and they trade away their entire roster, the Knicks might might have as much as $12 for another star. That $12 mil would put them at the cap.

Now they have to pay another 9 players while over the cap. They can do this by signing players to league minimums and sign 1 player to the mid level exception. Bottomline getting a Deron Williams, CP3 or D12 is very unlikely.

[JetsFanInDenver]

I'm a die hard Knick fan and I want more than just 2 games above .500.

I think the mistake most people who are denigrating this trade are making is thinking that this is to make the Knicks better now. That's not the point of this trade at all. The Knicks weren't winning a championship this year with what they had so its not like they traded away a potential championship to get a superstar.

This move was made for the long term - for next year, and the year after that, and the year after that.

The Knicks now have two HUGE building blocks plus the flexibility to add a third in Deron Williams, Chris Paul or Dwight Howard. If the Knicks add any one of those guys they will have a big three that is better than Miami's because they are all significantly better than Chris Bosh and they compliment each other better than Miami's big three.

The bottom line is the Knicks were not seriously competing against the Celtics, Heat or Bulls with what they had. Now that will definitely be a possibility in the very near future.

But lets assume we get the 3rd centerpiece, if its not Dwight Howard i doubt it makes us a championship team. You still need size up center to win championships. Having Paul on the team does not make it a lock. For all the ink devoted to the Big 3 in Miami they have as yet to win a single championship.

And the Knicks could have got him for giving up a lot less and having a few very young and talented players around. And that too for a player who does not even play defense. I know offensive numbers are the sexy to the media. But defense plays a huge part in ranking where a player stands. And on production at both ends of the floor Melo would not rank in the Top 3 in this league. And nobody can deny the fact the more talent you have in your stable the better off a team is.

On top of all that Denver essentially had no leverage in this trade. If they did not trade Melo they would have got nothing only 20 games down the road at the end of the season. Melo from what all reports indicated did not give his blessing to the Nets trade. So the Knicks were the only option. Then how do you explain giving up the house and you whole talent stack for one player. Denver netted 3 potential starters and 3 draft picks from this trade.

[dolphann4life]

I'm a die hard Knick fan and I want more than just 2 games above .500.

I think the mistake most people who are denigrating this trade are making is thinking that this is to make the Knicks better now. That's not the point of this trade at all. The Knicks weren't winning a championship this year with what they had so its not like they traded away a potential championship to get a superstar.

This move was made for the long term - for next year, and the year after that, and the year after that.

The Knicks now have two HUGE building blocks plus the flexibility to add a third in Deron Williams, Chris Paul or Dwight Howard. If the Knicks add any one of those guys they will have a big three that is better than Miami's because they are all significantly better than Chris Bosh and they compliment each other better than Miami's big three.

The bottom line is the Knicks were not seriously competing against the Celtics, Heat or Bulls with what they had. Now that will definitely be a possibility in the very near future.

Chris Bosh is a 3rd option, he put up very similar numbers to amare when he was #1 option. And you better pray to allah there is no hard cap and they keep the MLE. Knicks are about to have more than 80% of their cap space tied up into two players and good luck asking CP3 or any superstar to play for 8 mil per when amare and Melo are making 20

[JohnnyHector]

I assume most Knicks fans are Yankees fans....This isn't baseball where you can buy your roster with an endless bankroll.

Melo will sign an extension.....who knows what the numbers will be, but he wanted $21 mil and he doesn't know anything about a team so he would not likely sign for less even if it meant a possible NBA title.

With a cap likely to be around $52 mil, they will not be able to offer anywhere near what those elite players will demand. Yes, the Knicks can go over the cap, but not in the current situation. Exceeding the cap is allowed when keeping your own players, signing rookies, or signing players to league minimums. There is also a Mid Level Exception.

Lets assume the new cap is $53 million. The Knicks will likely have $40 tied up with Melo and Amar'e. They have another $5 mil committed to players not in the trade and Turiaff has a $4 mil player option. Assume that Turiaff declines the option, and they trade away their entire roster, the Knicks might might have as much as $12 for another star. That $12 mil would put them at the cap.

Now they have to pay another 9 players while over the cap. They can do this by signing players to league minimums and sign 1 player to the mid level exception. Bottomline getting a Deron Williams, CP3 or D12 is very unlikely.

Actually, the lesson you got in remedial capology was flawed.

You have to field a minimum roster of 12 players, so there is a $500k roster charge for any spots not currently filled that eats into the available cap space before you add any FA's.

I've tried doing it, but the reality is that trying to put numbers to a completely unknown cap situation in which there may or may not be a hard cap, an MLE, reduction in max contracts, etc. is an exercise in futility.

PS - I'm a Mets fan, so F U.

[JohnnyHector]

He thinks Dirk is the 39th best player of all time? Interesting. And again, I think Dirk is a good player...but he's the lone example of a Euro you can build around, which was my original point.

Gasol might not be a franchise cornerstone (though how many of those guys are there, really), but he's a pretty damn good player that is a top-notch second banana. Same goes for Manu.

[JustInFudge]

Actually, the lesson you got in remedial capology was flawed.

You have to field a minimum roster of 12 players, so there is a $500k roster charge for any spots not currently filled that eats into the available cap space before you add any FA's.

I've tried doing it, but the reality is that trying to put numbers to a completely unknown cap situation in which there may or may not be a hard cap, an MLE, reduction in max contracts, etc. is an exercise in futility.

PS - I'm a Mets fan, so F U.

+ 1 and that was kind of funny coming from a Miami fan.

Gasol might not be a franchise cornerstone (though how many of those guys are there, really), but he's a pretty damn good player that is a top-notch second banana. Same goes for Manu.

And those are the 2 guys I named early, but I dont think either are cornerstones like Dirk. Gasol tried to be, allbeit in a sh*tty market and Manu is good, but he's not that good.

[dolphann4life]

Actually, the lesson you got in remedial capology was flawed.

You have to field a minimum roster of 12 players, so there is a $500k roster charge for any spots not currently filled that eats into the available cap space before you add any FA's.

I've tried doing it, but the reality is that trying to put numbers to a completely unknown cap situation in which there may or may not be a hard cap, an MLE, reduction in max contracts, etc. is an exercise in futility.

PS - I'm a Mets fan, so F U.

ouch...i'm sorry lmao

[Klecko73isGod]

But lets assume we get the 3rd centerpiece, if its not Dwight Howard i doubt it makes us a championship team. You still need size up center to win championships. Having Paul on the team does not make it a lock. For all the ink devoted to the Big 3 in Miami they have as yet to win a single championship.

And the Knicks could have got him for giving up a lot less and having a few very young and talented players around. And that too for a player who does not even play defense. I know offensive numbers are the sexy to the media. But defense plays a huge part in ranking where a player stands. And on production at both ends of the floor Melo would not rank in the Top 3 in this league. And nobody can deny the fact the more talent you have in your stable the better off a team is.

On top of all that Denver essentially had no leverage in this trade. If they did not trade Melo they would have got nothing only 20 games down the road at the end of the season. Melo from what all reports indicated did not give his blessing to the Nets trade. So the Knicks were the only option. Then how do you explain giving up the house and you whole talent stack for one player. Denver netted 3 potential starters and 3 draft picks from this trade.

What house? A house that was barely over .500? They can have that house. Take Amare off the floor and the team flat out sucked. It was a bunch of JAGs, nothing more.

I agree that Howard should be the primary target but I totally disagree that Paul wouldn't make this team a legit contender.

[JetsFanInDenver]

What house? A house that was barely over .500? They can have that house. Take Amare off the floor and the team flat out sucked. It was a bunch of JAGs, nothing more.

I agree that Howard should be the primary target but I totally disagree that Paul wouldn't make this team a legit contender.

Yeah that house that was only two games over .500, but way above .500 before the distraction caused when Melo trade talks began to heat up and when media started reporting which players might be traded. That house which had a lot of young players with a lots of future upside.

At the end of the day it does not bite to keep some talent on the roster. The thing i still cannot accept we ended up giving away more than we should have. And this trade ended up with Denver getting better end of the deal with absolutely zero leverage. That is some "great" negotiating on the Knicks part.

And about having Paul. It does make a team legit contender but not a great lock to win the championship. Or put another way the probability of winning a championship with Howard would be far greater than winning one with Paul all other things being equal.

[Klecko73isGod]

Chris Bosh is a 3rd option, he put up very similar numbers to amare when he was #1 option. And you better pray to allah there is no hard cap and they keep the MLE. Knicks are about to have more than 80% of their cap space tied up into two players and good luck asking CP3 or any superstar to play for 8 mil per when amare and Melo are making 20

Dude, Amare wasn't the third option playing with two hall of famers. Bosh needs to put up Amare numbers just to justify his existence. Amare did it with no help.

The gameplan when playing the Heat is to force Bosh to beat you. The game plan when playing the Knicks is to not allow Amare to beat you. Huge difference.

[Klecko73isGod]

I assume most Knicks fans are Yankees fans....This isn't baseball where you can buy your roster with an endless bankroll.

Melo will sign an extension.....who knows what the numbers will be, but he wanted $21 mil and he doesn't know anything about a team so he would not likely sign for less even if it meant a possible NBA title.

With a cap likely to be around $52 mil, they will not be able to offer anywhere near what those elite players will demand. Yes, the Knicks can go over the cap, but not in the current situation. Exceeding the cap is allowed when keeping your own players, signing rookies, or signing players to league minimums. There is also a Mid Level Exception.

Lets assume the new cap is $53 million. The Knicks will likely have $40 tied up with Melo and Amar'e. They have another $5 mil committed to players not in the trade and Turiaff has a $4 mil player option. Assume that Turiaff declines the option, and they trade away their entire roster, the Knicks might might have as much as $12 for another star. That $12 mil would put them at the cap.

Now they have to pay another 9 players while over the cap. They can do this by signing players to league minimums and sign 1 player to the mid level exception. Bottomline getting a Deron Williams, CP3 or D12 is very unlikely.

I assume most Heat fans are bandwagon jumping retards.

[Klecko73isGod]

Yeah that house that was only two games over .500, but way above .500 before the distraction caused when Melo trade talks began to heat up and when media started reporting which players might be traded. That house which had a lot of young players with a lots of future upside.

At the end of the day it does not bite to keep some talent on the roster. The thing i still cannot accept we ended up giving away more than we should have. And this trade ended up with Denver getting better end of the deal with absolutely zero leverage. That is some "great" negotiating on the Knicks part.

And about having Paul. It does make a team legit contender but not a great lock to win the championship. Or put another way the probability of winning a championship with Howard would be far greater than winning one with Paul all other things being equal.

There isn't a universe that exists where this is true.

[JetsFanInDenver]

There isn't a universe that exists where this is true.

Any specifics ?

[Klecko73isGod]

Any specifics ?

There is no way to spin that Denver got the better end of the deal.

[dolphann4life]

I assume most Heat fans are bandwagon jumping retards.

ahhh yes the ol' bandwagon joke...Yea man i jumped all over that Dolphin bandwagon too i mean that 1-15 season was the sh*t!

[JetsFanInDenver]

There is no way to spin that Denver got the better end of the deal.

What makes you say that ?

They did. And given the circumstances they walked away big winners!

If Donnie had his way we would have parted with a lot less talent.

And i am not the only one to think so.

Here is another dude who feels the same:

Karl used Major League Baseball as an example to prove a point. He asked the media, how many players hit a home run in their first at-bat? He went on to say that new executives Josh Kroenke and Masai Ujiri "hit a home run" in their first challenge on the job.

"The whole thing comes down to, I think, that everyone - from the coaches to the organization felt that something had to be done," Karl said. "Movement had to be made. And Josh and Masai did a great job, a great job at getting the most out of what they could get."

Karl was asked an interesting question: "You're losing a guy who, many nights, WAS your offense. Do you think you have enough offensive pieces left?"

Read more: Carmelo Anthony trade fallout leaves Nuggets still contenders, George Karl says - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_17453073#ixzz1Ej2gZG8E

[madmikeisback]

Any specifics ?

They got a bunch of spare parts. Remember the knicks were a HORRIBLE team with Chandler and Gallo last year.

[JetsFanInDenver]

They got a bunch of spare parts. Remember the knicks were a HORRIBLE team with Chandler and Gallo last year.

Did we only give up Chandler and Gallo ? That would be a great trade if that was true!

[madmikeisback]

Did we only give up Chandler and Gallo ? That would be a great trade if that was true!

Felton and Billups is pretty much a wash and Mosgov is a stiff.

[JetsFanInDenver]

Felton and Billups is pretty much a wash and Mosgov is a stiff.

Not so fast. Not sure how Billups plays on D'Antoni's system. Felton thrived in that system.

The whole trade was held up till the Knicks included Mozgov in the trade. And Knicks help up for quite sometime on that demand. So obviusly they did not think Mozgov was just a stiff.

[Falcon63]

There is no way to spin that Denver got the better end of the deal.

Seriously? Denver got so much more in return it's not even funny. I actually just read an article that had every single thought I had about this trade on ESPN Insider....want me to post it to show you all the reasons why New York is stupid for making this deal?

[JustInFudge]

Not so fast. Not sure how Billups plays on D'Antoni's system. Felton thrived in that system.

The whole trade was held up till the Knicks included Mozgov in the trade. And Knicks help up for quite sometime on that demand. So obviusly they did not think Mozgov was just a stiff.

They were all jags and totally replaceable.

Remember Raja Bell in D'Antoni's system?

Besides, I heard the heat were going after Billups so boxing them out of making that move is win too.

[madmikeisback]

Not so fast. Not sure how Billups plays on D'Antoni's system. Felton thrived in that system.

The whole trade was held up till the Knicks included Mozgov in the trade. And Knicks help up for quite sometime on that demand. So obviusly they did not think Mozgov was just a stiff.

I saw every minute he played. Trust me, they won't regret trading him for a second. And Billups is the PG for the team AVG'ing the most points per game in the NBA. I'm not too worried about him.

Let me also say that while we all really liked Ray Felton, he was on a short term deal and the chances of them bringing him back were pretty minimal.

[#27TheDominator]

What makes you say that ?

They did. And given the circumstances they walked away big winners!

If Donnie had his way we would have parted with a lot less talent.

And i am not the only one to think so.

Here is another dude who feels the same:

Karl used Major League Baseball as an example to prove a point. He asked the media, how many players hit a home run in their first at-bat? He went on to say that new executives Josh Kroenke and Masai Ujiri "hit a home run" in their first challenge on the job.

"The whole thing comes down to, I think, that everyone - from the coaches to the organization felt that something had to be done," Karl said. "Movement had to be made. And Josh and Masai did a great job, a great job at getting the most out of what they could get."

Karl was asked an interesting question: "You're losing a guy who, many nights, WAS your offense. Do you think you have enough offensive pieces left?"

Read more: Carmelo Anthony trade fallout leaves Nuggets still contenders, George Karl says - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_17453073#ixzz1Ej2gZG8E

Getting the better of the deal and "given the circumstances" are two very different things. Just because the Knicks could and should have given up less does not mean that the Nuggets got the better of the deal. Karl saying they "got the most they could get" does not mean that a bunch of role players suddenly are better value than Anthony.

Not so fast. Not sure how Billups plays on D'Antoni's system. Felton thrived in that system.

The whole trade was held up till the Knicks included Mozgov in the trade. And Knicks help up for quite sometime on that demand. So obviusly they did not think Mozgov was just a stiff.

Everyone thrives in D'Antoni's system. Everybody puts up bigger numbers. Billups is a problem because he seems to be breaking down, but he'll do fine if he holds up.

Seriously? Denver got so much more in return it's not even funny. I actually just read an article that had every single thought I had about this trade on ESPN Insider....want me to post it to show you all the reasons why New York is stupid for making this deal?

You paid the $55?

[RutgersJetFan]

This thread is turning into teh awesome.