Owners' new tactic: Lying

[T0mShane]

Perhaps you should start a new organization that seeks to unite the best and brightest in the areas of illogical thought and omniscience in the absence of fact.... you can call it WOMENSA.

And you can call their members "WO-MENSES"

[T0mShane]

While I get what you're saying, you're definitely taking a short-sighted view here. Granted, the owners are responsible for the past week, but both sides deserve blame for how this has gone for over a year now. Both sides are completely full of sh*t and trying to get our sympathy as they argue over the money they're gouging from us. The preferential treatment the owners got from the 8th circuit is no different than that which the players got from the judge, who everyone knew was ruling in favor of the players before the case was even heard, and even went out of the way to try to write an appeal-proof ruling.

Frankly, both sides need to shut the **** up and work on a new deal ASAP. Nothing else is going to solve this.

I'll agree with that, and ultimately the fan is still paying $50 bucks to park their car. The players obviously haven't made this easy and have, I'm sure, mucked up the works more than they helped fix it. But, all the evidence points to the major problem being the arrogance of the owners and their belief that the union would roll over and die by now.

[Gainzo]

Clark Hunt can go eat a bag of dicks. His team plays in a Stadium payed for by taxpayers and just had an upgrade where his Chiefs picked up $125 million of the $375 million price-tag.

Like Ralph Wilson in Buffalo and Paul Brown in Cincy, the small-market teams are making money hand over fist with the current arrangement. It's not the players fault that Cincy and Buffalo can't draft for sh*t.

The small market teams did just fine before the salary-cap was instituted in 1994. I seem to remember the Bills going to 4 straight AFC Championship games and the Pats sucking donkey balls before the cap was put in place. Even the Bengals were good in the '80's.

[Bleedin Green]

I'll agree with that, and ultimately the fan is still paying $50 bucks to park their car. The players obviously haven't made this easy and have, I'm sure, mucked up the works more than they helped fix it. But, all the evidence points to the major problem being the arrogance of the owners and their belief that the union would roll over and die by now.

I see what you're saying. I guess I just have little sympathy for either side. The fact that either group tries to play the innocent victim / "woe is me" card is beyond irritating. For the billionaire owners that point is obvious, but even for the players, the lowest paid scrub on the team still qualifies as wealthy. Hell, even a guy who spends the entire season on the practice squad is making a decent buck. So a guy who's career revolves around PRACTICING a GAME, gets paid a salary that's more than a hell of a lot of the people who pay to see his teammates play. Outside of the retired players (and I'm not even talking about recent retirees, but really those who played at a time when NFL players really were paid like crap), none of these guys should be saying a damn word about money to anyone but each other.

Fact is both sides have their points, so I have a tough team caring too much which side wins, as long as one does soon. The owners are right, the decertification was a complete bullsh*t sham just to sue the NFL. I also don't know any business in the world that pays one segment of their employees such a significant portion of income (which isn't even counting for coaches, GMs, scouts and all of the other of thousands of business-side employees). On the other hand, the owners made that deal and trying to just suddenly go back on it now just because they want to is ridiculous. Which goes to the players point that why the hell should they suddenly have to agree to take a significant cut of their share at a time when the league is more successful than ever? Frankly, if either side cut the sh*t and were just honest about their intentions I'd probably be on their side in a heartbeat, but the fact that both are trying to play the innocent victim is such horsesh*t, when all they're doing is attempting to pander to the people who provide them with these billions of dollars a year to squabble over.

[Bleedin Green]

Clark Hunt can go eat a bag of dicks. His team plays in a Stadium payed for by taxpayers and just had an upgrade where his Chiefs picked up $125 million of the $375 million price-tag.

Like Ralph Wilson in Buffalo and Paul Brown in Cincy, the small-market teams are making money hand over fist with the current arrangement. It's not the players fault that Cincy and Buffalo can't draft for sh*t.

The small market teams did just fine before the salary-cap was instituted in 1994. I seem to remember the Bills going to 4 straight AFC Championship games and the Pats sucking donkey balls before the cap was put in place. Even the Bengals were good in the '80's.

Ok, that made me laugh. Well played.

And let's not forget, the Bills also happened to make it to lose the Super Bowl after those four AFC Championship games.

[Gainzo]

Ok, that made me laugh. Well played.

And let's not forget, the Bills also happened to make it to lose the Super Bowl after those four AFC Championship games.

The Bills should have won Super Bowl XXV and the Bengals, The Bengals!, were a Montana drive away from winning Super Bowl XXIII. Since their teams have gone in the toilet Wilson & Brown are crying poor, while Hunt is leading the charge for the small market teams.

[nycdan]

On the other hand, the owners made that deal and trying to just suddenly go back on it now just because they want to is ridiculous.

People keep ignoring the fact that the deal referred to here has expired. If you take a 2-year lease on an apartment and when the lease is up, rents have dropped 20% but your landlord says "I want the same deal we had last time" would you pay? The old revenue share really has little-to-nothing to do with what they will have going forward. It's a brand new shakedown on both sides.

[T0mShane]

I also don't know any business in the world that pays one segment of their employees such a significant portion of income (which isn't even counting for coaches, GMs, scouts and all of the other of thousands of business-side employees).

In what other business is the employee also the product? Show business and prostitution? You're paying top-dollar to all three.

The Bills should have won Super Bowl XXV and the Bengals, The Bengals!, were a Montana drive away from winning Super Bowl XXIII. Since their teams have gone in the toilet Wilson & Brown are crying poor, while Hunt is leading the charge for the small market teams.

The underlying reason that the small market teams are engaging here is that the way the current profit-sharing deal is set up, the top 15 revenue producers subsidize the lower 17 revenue producers. That means that Jones and Kraft and Woody all have to sign a check at the end of the year to support teams like Cleveland and Cincinnati. Their fear is that Jerry Jones will finally get his way and all but end profit-sharing, leaving Cleveland, etc., out in the lurch. That's where this whole "wah, my team is going to be like the Royals" crap is coming from. That's why this should never have been taken to the players at all and, instead, should be the owners locking themselves in a room and signing a contract among themselves to avoid killing each other down the line. Putting a cap on payroll only helps a small market team survive if profit sharing goes away, which is the next logical step for the owners. Otherwise, as has been pointed out, the health and competitive balance of the league has never been better than it is right now.

[Gainzo]

The underlying reason that the small market teams are engaging here is that the way the current profit-sharing deal is set up, the top 15 revenue producers subsidize the lower 17 revenue producers. That means that Jones and Kraft and Woody all have to sign a check at the end of the year to support teams like Cleveland and Cincinnati. Their fear is that Jerry Jones will finally get his way and all but end profit-sharing, leaving Cleveland, etc., out in the lurch. That's where this whole "wah, my team is going to be like the Royals" crap is coming from. That's why this should never have been taken to the players at all and, instead, should be the owners locking themselves in a room and signing a contract among themselves to avoid killing each other down the line. Putting a cap on payroll only helps a small market team survive if profit sharing goes away, which is the next logical step for the owners. Otherwise, as has been pointed out, the health and competitive balance of the league has never been better than it is right now.

I'm with you on this. The NFL has never been more powerful/popular than they are right now and there is the chance that no games will be played? What a load of crap. JN is a great example of the apathy fans are feeling about this stupid situation. I would bet posts are down 60%-70% compared to this time last year.

[PatriotReign37]

Then you see a team like the Tampa Rays doing well and able to compete well against the rich teams.

Only to collapse in the post season after the rich teams buy up all the talent before the trade deadline.

[Gainzo]

Only to collapse in the post season after the rich teams buy up all the talent before the trade deadline.

The same Rays who made the WS in 2008 and Division Series in 2010? The only reason the Rays aren't a consistent performer is because they play in a crap Stadium in a crap market. Can we all agree that the only thing Florida cares about is College Football?

[PatriotReign37]

You missed the point entirely, you Patriot honk. A CBA exists that has provided for the small markets for decades. The owners tore it up themselves. Everyone agrees that there has to be a CBA.

The players dont Tommie.

If they did, they would be at the bargaining table today instead of planning their next lawsuit against the owners.

Hunt tried to sell his fanbase on the idea that the players want to turn the NFL into MLB. That's a lie.

Jeff Kessler is attacking the draft, cba and free agency. Hunt isnt telling the truth.

The NFL will be worse than MLB if the players have their way.

[PatriotReign37]

The same Rays who made the WS in 2008 and Division Series in 2010? The only reason the Rays aren't a consistent performer is because they play in a crap Stadium in a crap market. Can we all agree that the only thing Florida cares about is College Football?

What reasonable chance do the Rays have every season?

In the NFL, the worse teams can compete with the best teams if they have savy management and good coaches. Look at Detroit, they are really turning that franchise around.

[Gainzo]

What reasonable chance do the Rays have every season?

In the NFL, the worse teams can compete with the best teams if they have savy management and good coaches. Look at Detroit, they are really turning that franchise around.

Detroit? The same Detroit that is the 11th TV market in the Country with a Stadium built in 2002? The Redskins are in the top 5 in revenue in the NFL and they suck.

[T0mShane]

The NFL will be worse than MLB if the players have their way.

The players have "had their way" since '06. Where's the small market team that couldn't sign a player?

[FloridaJetsFan]

The players have "had their way" since '06. Where's the small market team that couldn't sign a player?

In all fairness, Cam Newton had to take a pay cut to play for Carolina.

[Gainzo]

The players have "had their way" since '06. Where's the small market team that couldn't sign a player?

It certainly isn't Kansas City as they signed Cassel to a $43.5 million contract after the Pats traded him. I believe he made $11 million last season. Not to shabby for a small market team. PR37 is talking out of his arse again.

[Larz]

I was surprised to hear the NBA shares each teams tax returns with the players

I thought that made the NFL look very bad

open the books, hammer out a deal and play ball

[Larz]

In all fairness, Cam Newton had to take a pay cut to play for Carolina.

[gangreenman]

Clark Hunt can go eat a bag of dicks. His team plays in a Stadium payed for by taxpayers and just had an upgrade where his Chiefs picked up $125 million of the $375 million price-tag.

Like Ralph Wilson in Buffalo and Paul Brown in Cincy, the small-market teams are making money hand over fist with the current arrangement. It's not the players fault that Cincy and Buffalo can't draft for sh*t.

The small market teams did just fine before the salary-cap was instituted in 1994. I seem to remember the Bills going to 4 straight AFC Championship games and the Pats sucking donkey balls before the cap was put in place. Even the Bengals were good in the '80's.

While that is true, it is not really a valid point, considering Free Agency wasnt there until '94 either. It was all about drafting and trading well. Big market vs small market meant nothing, because you couldn't go out and "buy" a free agent regardless.

[jason423]

I was surprised to hear the NBA shares each teams tax returns with the players

I thought that made the NFL look very bad

open the books, hammer out a deal and play ball

They dont want to open the books because other than maybe the Jags all these teams are making huge sums of money. How can the Cowboys, Giants and Jets in good conscience after gouging the fans with these ridiculous fees this past year claim that they are facing "hard economic times"? They cant. Its ridiculous of them to say that the "fans have to bear the burden" in spite of the rough economy (and even in a good economy those are outrageous) and then turn around and claim that the economics have changed so much that the players must give back. And all the changing economy talk is a joke. They opted out of this deal before everything tanked.

Ive always said it was the owners right to opt out, but they have to be honest about why they are doing it and simply say they feel that they are not making enough money. Its not about saving the game. Its not about giving the fans more football. Its not about having a more competitive league. Its not about rookies making too much guaranteed money. Its about the owners feeling they deserve to earn more money. Thats their right to say, but just be honest about it and say it.

The reason the NBA is doing what they do is because they are going to ask for a ton back from the players. Major salary reductions and possible contraction of a few teams. When that is the offer you are making you have to give the players a ton of access to make your case stick. The NFL has no case.

[Bugg]

People keep ignoring the fact that the deal referred to here has expired. If you take a 2-year lease on an apartment and when the lease is up, rents have dropped 20% but your landlord says "I want the same deal we had last time" would you pay? The old revenue share really has little-to-nothing to do with what they will have going forward. It's a brand new shakedown on both sides.

Except when the economy sucks. Then the landlord doesn't want to lose his income, and the tenant doens't have the time, energy nor money to go searching out a better deal. So you go month-to-month. Practically Goodell could stop talking to Peter King and Chirs Mortensen for 10 minutes and stop listening to idiots like Jerry Richardson, the lukcy sperm club Bidwills and Hunts(we want more money now!), and various others. Then he could start talking to Bell Biv DeMaurice with their legal and financial guys and get this done. This whole thing is an embarrassment, but really only a math problem. Either carve up the $9 billion+ in a way both sides can live with, or there will not be $9 billion to carve up in a shrinking economy going forward.

[PatriotReign37]

The players have "had their way" since '06. Where's the small market team that couldn't sign a player?

There was a CBA.

The owners caved in 06 and gave the NFLPA too sweet a deal. Now, its come back to haunt the owners with the recession and inflation, so they opted out of the cba as was their right to do so.

Without a CBA, welfare teams the Bills wont be able to survive in Buffalo. They have the lowest ticket prices in the NFL.Gonzo doesnt know what the F hes talking about thinking the Bills will be fine because they were good in the 1980's.

[Bugg]

There was a CBA.

The owners caved in 06 and gave the NFLPA too sweet a deal. Now, its come back to haunt the owners with the recession and inflation, so they opted out of the cba as was their right to do so.

Without a CBA, welfare teams the Bills wont be able to survive in Buffalo. They have the lowest ticket prices in the NFL.Gonzo doesnt know what the F hes talking about thinking the Bills will be fine because they were good in the 1980's.

So move out of Buffalo. Toronto would take them in a heartbeat. Buffalo has no God-given right nor expectation of having an NFL team forever.If it doesn't make economic sense, that's life. My parents grew up walking to Brooklyn Dodgers games as children, and there are no more Brooklyn Dodgers. Things change. But moneywise, the Bills have an ancient stadium that is paid for and costs them nothing, still sell out and still share in all the revenue. They are not losing money, they simply want to make more money. There's no crime in that but it's not a very good reason to potentially damage $9 billion in revenue.

[T0mShane]

Without a CBA

Who's arguing for no CBA?

[T0mShane]

So move out of Buffalo. Toronto would take them in a heartbeat. Buffalo has no God-given right nor expectation of having an NFL team forever.If it doesn't make economic sense, that's life. My parents grew up walking to Brooklyn Dodgers games as children, and there are no more Brooklyn Dodgers. Things change. But moneywise, the Bills have an ancient stadium that is paid for and costs them nothing, still sell out and still share in all the revenue. They are not losing money, they simply want to make more money. There's no crime in that but it's not a very good reason to potentially damage $9 billion in revenue.

When the Bills win, they draw. When the lose, they don't. There is no worse sports town in the US than Atlanta, but the Falcons have been packing that stadium since they started winning. IMO, regionality isn't a hindrance at all. Bills don't have to move--they just have to get better.

[Damaged89]

When the Bills win, they draw. When the lose, they don't. There is no worse sports town in the US than Atlanta, but the Falcons have been packing that stadium since they started winning. IMO, regionality isn't a hindrance at all. Bills don't have to move--they just have to get better.

FWIW I have a buddy who used to go to school up there. He says that the locals are all obsessed. Like, Canadian hockey fan level obsessed.

[dbatesman]

FWIW I have a buddy who used to go to school up there. He says that the locals are all obsessed. Like, Canadian hockey fan level obsessed.

My brother did too and said the same thing. I think people care, they just can't afford to go to the games.

[T0mShane]

FWIW I have a buddy who used to go to school up there. He says that the locals are all obsessed. Like, Canadian hockey fan level obsessed.

I used to live in Rochester and, on Sundays, people would drive down from Syracuse, Rochester, etc. to come see the Bills--so much so that the last 20 miles on I-95 looked like a Bills tailgate. That was when they were good. But, when they sucked, you could get day-of tickets at the box office. It's a really rabid fanbase, but it's a financially poor fanbase who won't spend money to watch a bad team.

[PatriotReign37]

So move out of Buffalo. Toronto would take them in a heartbeat.

You got that right. Theres money be made in Toronto.

Buffalo has no God-given right nor expectation of having an NFL team forever.If it doesn't make economic sense, that's life. My parents grew up walking to Brooklyn Dodgers games as children, and there are no more Brooklyn Dodgers. Things change. But moneywise, the Bills have an ancient stadium that is paid for and costs them nothing, still sell out and still share in all the revenue. They are not losing money, they simply want to make more money. There's no crime in that but it's not a very good reason to potentially damage $9 billion in revenue.

I dont know for a fact, but I believe some teams are losing money. Buffalo and KC, no. Thats the rub with opening up the books IMO.

[PatriotReign37]

Who's arguing for no CBA?

NFLPA attorney Jeff Kessler

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/21/goodell-fears-an-nfl-without-a-draft-free-agency-rules/

Under lawyer Jeffrey Kessler’s view of reality, a non-union NFL should have no rules of any kind among the 32 teams. That means no salary cap, no restrictions on free agency, no franchise tags, and no draft.

Kessler shrugs at the potential consequences, believing that a truly open market for player services would be good for everyone.

We both agree that the only way to a new CBA is with both parties at the mediation table. Where are the players? Suing the owners at every turn, thats where.

[T0mShane]

NFLPA attorney Jeff Kessler

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/21/goodell-fears-an-nfl-without-a-draft-free-agency-rules/

Under lawyer Jeffrey Kessler’s view of reality, a non-union NFL should have no rules of any kind among the 32 teams. That means no salary cap, no restrictions on free agency, no franchise tags, and no draft.

Kessler shrugs at the potential consequences, believing that a truly open market for player services would be good for everyone.

We both agree that the only way to a new CBA is with both parties at the mediation table. Where are the players? Suing the owners at every turn, thats where.

Dude, seriously? Kessler is an outside counsel who has very little bearing on the actual litigation other than pointing out--as has been confirmed by repeated losses in the courtroom--that the NFL is operating outside the constraints of employment law. Goodell points him out to make believe that the players have some radical position that would doom the NFL. It's not true. Everybody wants a CBA. Don't believe your buddy Goodell every (any?) time he opens his mouth. From your article:

“That’s something that’s troubling to me a little bit because in the [April 6] hearing, some of the lawyers for the players association talk about their vision of what would happen with the NFL and the types of things they would be challenging in court – everything from the draft to free agency rules,” Goodell said. “I think it would have a tremendously negative impact on the game of football and what everybody loves the game of football for and what has made us successful.

Typical "The sky is falling!" mumbo-jumbo from a docuhebag who was banking on the average fan not paying attention. Hell, he's even said "The fan doesn't care about the details." He thinks you're an idiot.

[Bugg]

Dude, seriously? Kessler is an outside counsel who has very little bearing on the actual litigation other than pointing out--as has been confirmed by repeated losses in the courtroom--that the NFL is operating outside the constraints of employment law. Goodell points him out to make believe that the players have some radical position that would doom the NFL. It's not true. Everybody wants a CBA. Don't believe your buddy Goodell every (any?) time he opens his mouth. From your article:

Typical "The sky is falling!" mumbo-jumbo from a docuhebag who was banking on the average fan not paying attention. Hell, he's even said "The fan doesn't care about the details." He thinks you're an idiot.

Kessler is merely trying to get what he thinks would be most ideal for his clients, the NFLPA. But Goodell,who's responsibilty is pirmarily to the owners, would be better served by simply talking to THEM rather than ANOTHER REPORTER. At some point leverage will shift to the owners because players with finite careers can never get missed game checks back.

But Goodell's lockout has damaged his enterprise. This is totally unnecessary and it's being done by Goodell to cater to several foolish small market/old stadium owners. Suspect once Jerry Jones, Snyder, Mara/Johnson, Kraft, Lurie, the McCaskeys start falling behind on the debt service to their shiny new stadiums, they are not really going to be all that interested in the awful plight of the Browns, Bidwills, Hunts, Wilsons and Richardsons, none of whom are losing money and are pushing this idiocy because they want to make even more money.

[Maxman]

I'm with you on this. The NFL has never been more powerful/popular than they are right now and there is the chance that no games will be played? What a load of crap. JN is a great example of the apathy fans are feeling about this stupid situation. I would bet posts are down 60%-70% compared to this time last year.

The numbers are down. I will research it.

[T0mShane]

Suspect once Jerry Jones, Snyder, Mara/Johnson, Kraft, Lurie, the McCaskeys start falling behind on the debt service to their shiny new stadiums, they are not really going to be all that interested in the awful plight of the Browns, Bidwills, Hunts, Wilsons and Richardsons, none of whom are losing money and are pushing this idiocy because they want to make even more money.

The great unwritten story of this off-season is that Jerry Richardson, after screaming at Peyton Manning and Tom Brady for making so much money, is going to have to turn around and hand Cam Newton a check for $50 million dollars. There's something Shakespearean about that.