Building an Offense

[Larz]

Meh, how many big-time WR's have won super bowls?  Brees won with 7th rounder Marques Colston as his # 1.  Victor Cruz was a UDFA for Eli.  Anquan Boldin was a late 2nd rounder and a free agent pickup for Baltimore.  

 

It's NICE to have a bigtime WR, as it can make an average QB look good.  But how many Super Bowls have Andre Johnson, Megatron, and Larry Fitzgerald won?

 

 

I didn't know "get a hall of fame QB" was an option.  why did you ignore the LT part of my post ? 

[sirlancemehlot]

A 280 lb project gets hooked up into an NFL nutrition programcoughHGH, adds 40 lbs and doubles his bench press. Boom. Tackle.

Crap. You said the same thing I just said. But two posts earlier and funny.

[SenorGato]

Meh, how many big-time WR's have won super bowls? Brees won with 7th rounder Marques Colston as his # 1. Victor Cruz was a UDFA for Eli. Anquan Boldin was a late 2nd rounder and a free agent pickup for Baltimore.

It's NICE to have a bigtime WR, as it can make an average QB look good. But how many Super Bowls have Andre Johnson, Megatron, and Larry Fitzgerald won?

The answer to your question is zero. They've made one appearance to the SB between them.

[Matt39]

The answer to your question is zero. They've made one appearance to the SB between them.

 

Clearly Megatron is holding the Lions back.

[Jetsfan80]

I didn't know "get a hall of fame QB" was an option.  why did you ignore the LT part of my post ? 

 

Because I agree with you that bulking up the line, particularly at BOTH OT spots, is crucial once you have a QB worth protecting.  

[Jetsfan80]

Clearly Megatron is holding the Lions back.

 

Having Megatron is great but its not a priority for the successful franchises.  The Lions burned top 10 picks on WR's 3 straight years once (remember Charles Rogers, Roy Williams & the other Mike Williams?)  Once they got a franchise QB, actually invested in defense, and beefed up the line a bit in the post-Millen era, they started having some success.  He's not the ONLY reason why they went from 0-16 to a team that can compete, and he won't be the biggest reason they win a Super Bowl if it ever happens.  It will require Stafford elevating his play like, say, Joe Flacco did.

[JoeKlecko]

Once again your bringing Sanchez into a question that was based on the future of the Jets offense. Let it rest already... I think we all know at this point unless Sanchez has some type of devine intervention he will NOT be the QB of the Jets after this season.

 

However to address some of what you posted claiming we built around the QB its simply false/ You build around a young 21 year old QB by adding young skill players the entire offense can grow with over time, NOT by adding 34 and 38 year old bandaids who we all know have the short life span in an offense we witnessed. It takes skill players on offense time to mesh together and get on the same page. The Jets have totally failed in this respect over the past 12 years and I hope it does not continue.

 

When you add a new young QB you bring in players he can grow with, we had the OL and defense in place but failed miserably in recognizing the loss of a solid RT and LG along with some solid role players which caused our once smashmouth offense to fail like they did the past 2 years.  How the Jets went into the season the past two years and dared to talk SB with the holes we had in what made us great the previous 2 seasons was laughable. Almost as laughable as bringing in Drunks, Loudmouth, Selfish bitchs at the WR position and expecting growth all that while not addressing the OL situation and going into the season with scrubs that replaced probowl caliber players.

 

I agree with sirlancemehlot that you build the OL get the QB and then add the skill players when building an offense. Jets just made very POOR choices when adding skill players and I think it had a huge effect on the development of the offense in general.

 

Idzik made some nice moves this offseason building the OL bringing in a few explosive RB's . He did what he could with what was available but its a step in the right direction because they are relatively young players who do not have a lot of mileage on them. Big question is health and with Goodson its the off field issues. I want to see the Jets target a big time WR in next years draft and dump Holmes for good I would also like to see them grab a TE either in the draft or FA that can actully play the position.

 

Good post. I agree.

[Sperm Edwards]

Good post. I agree.

 

Don't encourage him, please.

[Smashmouth]

Meh, how many big-time WR's have won super bowls?  Brees won with 7th rounder Marques Colston as his # 1.  Victor Cruz was a UDFA for Eli.  Anquan Boldin was a late 2nd rounder and a free agent pickup for Baltimore.  

 

It's NICE to have a bigtime WR, as it can make an average QB look good.  But how many Super Bowls have Andre Johnson, Megatron, and Larry Fitzgerald won?

 

How many has Jerry Rice and Micheal Irvin won ?  Its not just about one QB or one WR its about the entire team. Matthew Stafford threw for 40 TD's a few years ago but his team has obvious flaws on defense, same thing with Brees. Brady won SB's when his defense was one of the best in the NFL now hes lost 2 in a row on late game drives that previous team would have shut down. Great QB's will win you games and get you to the playoffs regularly but flaws in the team will lose you those playoff games. Great Defenses will accomplish the same thing but you dont need a high scoring offense to win. Brees, Warner amd Rodgers as great as they are/were, only have 1 SB each and they won their SB's when their defenses had great years. On the other end of the coin Flacco finally stepped up and played great the past two playoff runs for the Ravens who happen to be one of those great defenses mentioned  won a SB... why ? Because they added some good players at weak points on the team. Flacco didnt have to throw 40 TD's nor did he have to carry the team... that offense had multiple ways to beat you simply by adding a threat at WR and Flacco used him well by leaning on him in the playoffs and he responded without Boldin the Ravens do not win the SB period.

 

 

When you look at ALL the Dynasties in the NFL with Multiple SB wins to their credit they all had top defenses throughout their reigns, they had great QB's as well, but when the defenses slid so did the dynasty even though the QB's continued to play at a high level. Steelers, 49ers, Cowboys, Patriots , and all the teams we expected might be in this category like the Packers, Saints, Colts, Rams just fell off because so did their defense. Teams with Bad defenses simply do not win SB's, Pats came close 2 times but no cigar. So yeah great QB's will get you there but great defenses will win it for you more often than not.

 

Below is a post I found on the subject of defense vs offense

 

I kept thinking of the ol' statement "Defense wins Super Bowls." Of course the hot statement is "It's a QB driven league." Actually, it is my thinking that it is both. I thought, great offenses without a top 10 defenses rarely win it all. With that in mind, I went back to see the rankings of all the Super Bowl winners since and including the 1999 St. Louis Rams.

I'm listing their ranking on offense and defense the year they won as well as the previous season.

After reviewing all the rankings, which are based on total yards, the odds of being a Super Bowl Champion with a top 10 defense far outweigth having a top 10 offense. Frankly, it's not even close.

73% (8) of the last 11 winners had a top 10 defense.

36% (4) of the last 11 winners had a top 10 offense.

18% (2) of the last 11 winners had both (Rams and Patriots).

The median defensive ranking of the last 11 winners is 7.

The median offensive ranking of the last 11 winners is 16.

The average defensive ranking of the last 11 winners is 10.

The average offensive ranking oCurrentf the last 11 winners is 13.

The key is balance.

Note: New England in 2001 and Indianapolis in 2006 turned on defensively in their playoff runs. If New Orleans doesn't improve defensively, I'm here to predict, they will never get back to the Super Bowl.

...................................Current........Previous

Year.....Team...............D.....O..........D.....O

1999....St. Louis..........6......1..........10....27

2000....Baltimore.........6......16........2.....24

2001....New England..24.....19.......20...22

2002....Tampa Bay.....1.......24.......6.....26

2003....New England..7.......17.......23...21

2004....New England..9.......7.........7.....17

2005....Pittsburgh........4.......15......1......16

2006....Indianapolis.....21.....3........11....3

2007....NY Giants........7.......16......25....14

2008....Pittsburgh........1.......22......1......17

2009....New Orleans...25.....1........23.....1

 

[SayNoToDMC]

Having Megatron is great but its not a priority for the successful franchises.  The Lions burned top 10 picks on WR's 3 straight years once (remember Charles Rogers, Roy Williams & the other Mike Williams?)  Once they got a franchise QB, actually invested in defense, and beefed up the line a bit in the post-Millen era, they started having some success.  He's not the ONLY reason why they went from 0-16 to a team that can compete, and he won't be the biggest reason they win a Super Bowl if it ever happens.  It will require Stafford elevating his play like, say, Joe Flacco did.

 

Matt Millen leaving is reason number one. If you took over the team and like the movie Major League needed to lose in order to get out of your lease you would find it almost impossible to compile a record worse then Matt Millen's .277 win percentage over 7 years. That shouldn't even be possible the way the NFL is set up. It's easier to put together a winner then be that bad for that long.

[Jetsfan80]

How many has Jerry Rice and Micheal Irvin won ?  Its not just about one QB or one WR its about the entire team. Matthew Stafford threw for 40 TD's a few years ago but his team has obvious flaws on defense, same thing with Brees. Brady won SB's when his defense was one of the best in the NFL now hes lost 2 in a row on late game drives that previous team would have shut down. Great QB's will win you games and get you to the playoffs regularly but flaws in the team will lose you those playoff games. Great Defenses will accomplish the same thing but you dont need a high scoring offense to win. Brees, Warner amd Rodgers as great as they are/were, only have 1 SB each and they won their SB's when their defenses had great years. On the other end of the coin Flacco finally stepped up and played great the past two playoff runs for the Ravens who happen to be one of those great defenses mentioned  won a SB... why ? Because they added some good players at weak points on the team. Flacco didnt have to throw 40 TD's nor did he have to carry the team... that offense had multiple ways to beat you simply by adding a threat at WR and Flacco used him well by leaning on him in the playoffs and he responded without Boldin the Ravens do not win the SB period.

 

 

When you look at ALL the Dynasties in the NFL with Multiple SB wins to their credit they all had top defenses throughout their reigns, they had great QB's as well, but when the defenses slid so did the dynasty even though the QB's continued to play at a high level. Steelers, 49ers, Cowboys, Patriots , and all the teams we expected might be in this category like the Packers, Saints, Colts, Rams just fell off because so did their defense. Teams with Bad defenses simply do not win SB's, Pats came close 2 times but no cigar. So yeah great QB's will get you there but great defenses will win it for you more often than not.

 

Below is a post I found on the subject of defense vs offense

 

I kept thinking of the ol' statement "Defense wins Super Bowls." Of course the hot statement is "It's a QB driven league." Actually, it is my thinking that it is both. I thought, great offenses without a top 10 defenses rarely win it all. With that in mind, I went back to see the rankings of all the Super Bowl winners since and including the 1999 St. Louis Rams.

I'm listing their ranking on offense and defense the year they won as well as the previous season.

After reviewing all the rankings, which are based on total yards, the odds of being a Super Bowl Champion with a top 10 defense far outweigth having a top 10 offense. Frankly, it's not even close.

73% (8) of the last 11 winners had a top 10 defense.

36% (4) of the last 11 winners had a top 10 offense.

18% (2) of the last 11 winners had both (Rams and Patriots).

The median defensive ranking of the last 11 winners is 7.

The median offensive ranking of the last 11 winners is 16.

The average defensive ranking of the last 11 winners is 10.

The average offensive ranking oCurrentf the last 11 winners is 13.

The key is balance.

Note: New England in 2001 and Indianapolis in 2006 turned on defensively in their playoff runs. If New Orleans doesn't improve defensively, I'm here to predict, they will never get back to the Super Bowl.

...................................Current........Previous

Year.....Team...............D.....O..........D.....O

1999....St. Louis..........6......1..........10....27

2000....Baltimore.........6......16........2.....24

2001....New England..24.....19.......20...22

2002....Tampa Bay.....1.......24.......6.....26

2003....New England..7.......17.......23...21

2004....New England..9.......7.........7.....17

2005....Pittsburgh........4.......15......1......16

2006....Indianapolis.....21.....3........11....3

2007....NY Giants........7.......16......25....14

2008....Pittsburgh........1.......22......1......17

2009....New Orleans...25.....1........23.....1

 

 

 

Good points, but why did you cut off the 2010-12 teams?  The offenses of the Packers, Giants and Ravens carried those teams.  In addition, that New England team you talk about never getting back to a Super Bowl?  They had the # 31 defense and got to the Super Bowl in '11, and got to the AFC Title game last year.  If their defense were to get to a "mediocre" level this coming year, Brady might win his last title. 

 

Great QB play + good defense = Super Bowl win these days.  Great QB play + bad defense = competitive.  Bad QB play + anything = not competitive.  This is the trend of late. 

 

Every team strives for balance but finding that QB is the most effective way to get back to the playoffs again and again with consistency.  Having the QB reduces your margin for error, because you need to play perfectly if you DON'T have that QB (see:  2009 and 2010 Jets). 

 

Its why the Ravens paid all that money to Flacco, neglecting just about everything else and letting so many quality players go.  Are the Ravens suddenly stupid for overpaying a good, not great QB, who had one great playoff run?  I'm pretty sure they've been one of the class organizations over the years.  its also why the Steelers only gave Big Ben a slap on the wrist for his rape charges.  They knew they couldn't afford to try to replace him.

[JiFtheOracle]

Ok so lets assume Geno is the guy what do you think would be the best way to handle the offense moving forward ?

 

In my opinion next years draft would be one of the most important drafts in Genos development. The first thing we should focus on is getting a dual threat RB in here to take off some of the pressure. This back should be in the mold of a Ray Rice or a Doug Martin a back who can be effective in all phases of the position which will take a ton of pressure off Geno. This can be huge for a young QB. 

 

The next move would be the TE. The reason I go here next is because we did address the Offensive line this year but I would not be opposed to drafting a great Offensive lineman if one happened to fall to us in next years draft. There is also the factor that the players we want are just not available so this can take many different directions. I think the TE and RB are the most important needs to address for a young QB because they act as a safety valve and they are also a good way for an offense to get in sync early in games working the running game and short passing attack in the middle of the field.

 

Next move would be a big posession WR someone who can move the chains. When I think of this type of player Im thinking in the mold of a Micheal Irvin or a Keyshawn Johnson. I think we have our guy in the slot in Kerley and Hill can be the Burner but Hill has not yet proven to be a good posession guy. I think hes tough and will have no issue going over the middle but will he consistently catch the ball to convert big first downs at critical points in the game like you need from big receiver ? reamians to be seen. Either way you need a big tough posession guy you can trust to go and get the football and convert 3rd's into 1st's

 

Role players - we have seen the effect losing role players has had on our offense especially the running game which has declined steadily over the past 2 years as opposed to the previous 2 (09 and 10 ) Losing guys like Hartsock, T- Rich and Turner most definetly had a big effect, it was not just about losing Woody, who happened to be a great run blocker. Turner and Hartsock brought a toughness we seemed to lose the last few years we were no longer the ground and pound that was associated with playing the Jets. Hopefully a guy like Bohanon will emerge as a steady FB in the WCO we are going to be implementing. FB's do play a role in that offense and it certainly does not mean lining them up wide like Idiot Shotty used to do . Attacking the middle of the field with the FB will be a big part of the plan sort of the way Montana did with Rathman would love for Bohanan to be half the player Rathman was

 

I think a good philosophy on offense is to keep teams off balance something the Jets have lacked for many years. creating mismatches also comes to mind in the void our offense has been. Hopefully we can change this culture and get with the trend in the NFL and finally be able to attack teams in numerous ways not just G and P

 

Thats a lovely strategy, and not one that I think to many teams vary from in terms of philosophy.  That said, its easier said than done.  You can only get, whats available to you.  That said, I dont think you tie yourself to one particular method of building an offense.  But if you did for the purpose of your thread, I'd move RB down to the bottom, WR up #1 and TE #2.

 

RB's are a dime a dozen and are a dying position in the NFL.  I wont deny the importance of versatile RB but its a plug and play position these days especially with every team going the committee route.  RB's can be found everywhere from the bottom of another team's depth chart , late date in the draft, to UDFA's.  Not a prime position anymore.  Much rather a big strong possession WR and stretch the field TE.

[flgreen]

A 280 lb project gets hooked up into an NFL nutrition programcoughHGH, adds 40 lbs and doubles his bench press. Boom. Tackle.

Here's a good candidate under your formula T0m. 

 

 

 

Jets C Dalton Freeman has versatile skillset on o-line

 

 

Jets center Dalton Freeman could project as a guard or right tackle. (US Presswire)

Conor Orr/The Star-Ledger By  Conor Orr/The Star-Ledger  

on May 28, 2013 at 7:40 AM, updated May 28, 2013 at 8:30 AM

 

 

    

 

Throughout the offseason, we'll be looking at some of the under-the-radar players that will be competing for roster spots during OTAs and training camp. Today, we're taking a look at center Dalton Freeman out of Clemson. His college position coach, Robbie Caldwell, was kind enough to help us understand why Freeman's name has already come up a few times this offseason.

 

The first time Clemson offensive line coach Robbie Caldwell met the Freeman family in Pelion, South Carolina, he had a good feeling about Dalton.

 

His father, Ben, was the local high school coach. A former Wake Forest standout who made sure his son understood the game around him, and not just his position. His mother, Gwen, was "the perfect football wife and mom," who invited the coach to whip her son into shape.

 

"She says to me 'if he needs his butt kicked, you kick it,'" Caldwell said by phone this weekend. "Right when I first met them, I knew."

 

What Caldwell ended up with was a finalist for the Rimington Trophy, an AP second-team All-American and first-team All-ACC. As a junior on a line full of seniors, Freeman was the pace-setter, leading film sessions and piloting the offense on game day. As a senior, Freeman was a team captain. He never had to kick Freeman's butt, either.

 

"He's just brilliant on the field," Caldwell said. "He understands exactly what you're trying to do."

 

Obviously, Freeman plays one of the few positions that will be immune to GM John Idzik's competition theory. Nick Mangold is one of the highest-rated centers in the game and has proven essential to the offense's fluidity. But Caldwell ran a pull-heavy offense at Clemson, much like the Jets and feels like Freeman could easily bump out to guard. If he continues to put on weight, Caldwell said, right tackle isn't out of the conversation.

 

He also long snaps. Caldwell estimated that he's seen his center make 1,500 shotgun and long snaps, and can count the bad ones "on one hand."

 

Freeman had a sickness between his junior and senior seasons that caused him to rapidly shed weight. He was down to 265, which scared away a majority of the scouts down in Clemson. While he was recovering, Caldwell begged him to just stand in with the offense during practices because the offense couldn't run properly without him.

 

"During that fall we tried to get the young group going and he was so valuable to us," Caldwell said. "I was like, Dalton you need to give us a few plays here so we can get this thing down.'"

 

He recovered, weighing in at 296 during his Pro Day, where he ran a sub-5 40-yard dash and threw up 36 reps on the bench.

Rex Ryan, who has been talking up Freeman ever since as "the kid from Clemson" was surprised at the lack of interest. The Jets made a push to add quality depth across the offensive line this offseason and having a second option at center, as well as a potential stand-in at guard was among the priorities.

 

Caldwell, who said he left Freeman in isolation for a majority of the season last year, thinks they have a good option.

 

"We played a lot of five-man protection vs some odd fronts, and we did not mind him being on an island all by himself," he said.

Freeman had a school-record 3,361 snaps in 53 career games. He registered 171 knockdowns.

[Smashmouth]

Thats a lovely strategy, and not one that I think to many teams vary from in terms of philosophy.  That said, its easier said than done.  You can only get, whats available to you.  That said, I dont think you tie yourself to one particular method of building an offense.  But if you did for the purpose of your thread, I'd move RB down to the bottom, WR up #1 and TE #2.

 

RB's are a dime a dozen and are a dying position in the NFL.  I wont deny the importance of versatile RB but its a plug and play position these days especially with every team going the committee route.  RB's can be found everywhere from the bottom of another team's depth chart , late date in the draft, to UDFA's.  Not a prime position anymore.  Much rather a big strong possession WR and stretch the field TE.

 

In some ways I agree with what you have said about the RB position but it seems when you get guys like a Marshall Faulk or an LT in his prime they can transform an offense and make it much much easier on a QB especially a young one. When you look at teams that have that type of dual threat at RB the offense is usually doing pretty well unless your the KC Chiefs who have threats at every level but cant seem to plug in am offense or QB to make it work. I think you will see a huge difference with that team this year due to the coaching change Reid will get that offense going with the talent he has available no doubt in my mind.

 

The thing is RB's like a Faulk dont come along very often. Comparing a RB like Faulk to a RB by comittee situation wont work either because with with a single running back handling the load you dont have to tip your hand to the defense. The only team in the NFL right now that runs a really good RB by committee is the Saints (niners do good as well) because every back they have can both run and catch the football and all of them are threats. So when you have two backs in there they can still change up on you, not many teams can say that IMO.  I was hoping Ivory and Goodson would bring that to the Jets but with Goodson doing his thing and Ivory always seeming to be hurt ya never know.

 

A Big Posession WR is a Must and we have not had a real one since Keyshawn left. I not sure many remember just how potent our offense was in 98 with Keyshawn, Chrebet in the slot, and the dual threat of Martin in the back field but at times they were unstoppable. They were not quick strike by any means but they certainly were a great posession type offense that moved the chains when they had to. Dedric Ward (19 ypc) provided a deep threat when needed to stretch the field. Only thing that team lacked was a TE worth a crap but Brady was a great blocker for sure.

[Smashmouth]

Here's a good candidate under your formula T0m. 

 

 

 

Jets C Dalton Freeman has versatile skillset on o-line

 

 

Jets center Dalton Freeman could project as a guard or right tackle. (US Presswire)

Conor Orr/The Star-Ledger By  Conor Orr/The Star-Ledger  

on May 28, 2013 at 7:40 AM, updated May 28, 2013 at 8:30 AM

 

 

    

 

Throughout the offseason, we'll be looking at some of the under-the-radar players that will be competing for roster spots during OTAs and training camp. Today, we're taking a look at center Dalton Freeman out of Clemson. His college position coach, Robbie Caldwell, was kind enough to help us understand why Freeman's name has already come up a few times this offseason.

 

The first time Clemson offensive line coach Robbie Caldwell met the Freeman family in Pelion, South Carolina, he had a good feeling about Dalton.

 

His father, Ben, was the local high school coach. A former Wake Forest standout who made sure his son understood the game around him, and not just his position. His mother, Gwen, was "the perfect football wife and mom," who invited the coach to whip her son into shape.

 

"She says to me 'if he needs his butt kicked, you kick it,'" Caldwell said by phone this weekend. "Right when I first met them, I knew."

 

What Caldwell ended up with was a finalist for the Rimington Trophy, an AP second-team All-American and first-team All-ACC. As a junior on a line full of seniors, Freeman was the pace-setter, leading film sessions and piloting the offense on game day. As a senior, Freeman was a team captain. He never had to kick Freeman's butt, either.

 

"He's just brilliant on the field," Caldwell said. "He understands exactly what you're trying to do."

 

Obviously, Freeman plays one of the few positions that will be immune to GM John Idzik's competition theory. Nick Mangold is one of the highest-rated centers in the game and has proven essential to the offense's fluidity. But Caldwell ran a pull-heavy offense at Clemson, much like the Jets and feels like Freeman could easily bump out to guard. If he continues to put on weight, Caldwell said, right tackle isn't out of the conversation.

 

He also long snaps. Caldwell estimated that he's seen his center make 1,500 shotgun and long snaps, and can count the bad ones "on one hand."

 

Freeman had a sickness between his junior and senior seasons that caused him to rapidly shed weight. He was down to 265, which scared away a majority of the scouts down in Clemson. While he was recovering, Caldwell begged him to just stand in with the offense during practices because the offense couldn't run properly without him.

 

"During that fall we tried to get the young group going and he was so valuable to us," Caldwell said. "I was like, Dalton you need to give us a few plays here so we can get this thing down.'"

 

He recovered, weighing in at 296 during his Pro Day, where he ran a sub-5 40-yard dash and threw up 36 reps on the bench.

Rex Ryan, who has been talking up Freeman ever since as "the kid from Clemson" was surprised at the lack of interest. The Jets made a push to add quality depth across the offensive line this offseason and having a second option at center, as well as a potential stand-in at guard was among the priorities.

 

Caldwell, who said he left Freeman in isolation for a majority of the season last year, thinks they have a good option.

 

"We played a lot of five-man protection vs some odd fronts, and we did not mind him being on an island all by himself," he said.

Freeman had a school-record 3,361 snaps in 53 career games. He registered 171 knockdowns.

 

flgreen Im glad you posted that, looks promising even if he does not start right away he could turn out to be one of those valuable role players until he gets some more weight on him. Getting someone who can long snap and play a role on offense would be very nice.

[SenorGato]

Freeman definitely stood out in the UDFA bunch, and now I know more as to why.

[Smashmouth]

Good points, but why did you cut off the 2010-12 teams?  The offenses of the Packers, Giants and Ravens carried those teams.  In addition, that New England team you talk about never getting back to a Super Bowl?  They had the # 31 defense and got to the Super Bowl in '11, and got to the AFC Title game last year.  If their defense were to get to a "mediocre" level this coming year, Brady might win his last title. 

 

Great QB play + good defense = Super Bowl win these days.  Great QB play + bad defense = competitive.  Bad QB play + anything = not competitive.  This is the trend of late. 

 

Every team strives for balance but finding that QB is the most effective way to get back to the playoffs again and again with consistency.  Having the QB reduces your margin for error, because you need to play perfectly if you DON'T have that QB (see:  2009 and 2010 Jets). 

 

Its why the Ravens paid all that money to Flacco, neglecting just about everything else and letting so many quality players go.  Are the Ravens suddenly stupid for overpaying a good, not great QB, who had one great playoff run?  I'm pretty sure they've been one of the class organizations over the years.  its also why the Steelers only gave Big Ben a slap on the wrist for his rape charges.  They knew they couldn't afford to try to replace him.

 

The Giants in Both SB's got insanely hot on the defensive line and pressured the QB. The defense of the Ravens was always good and made the stop at the end to secure the SB win. And the Packers defense was ranked number 1 in the NFL, if I remember correctly, much different than the last few years where they have been horrible.

[JiFtheOracle]

In some ways I agree with what you have said about the RB position but it seems when you get guys like a Marshall Faulk or an LT in his prime they can transform an offense and make it much much easier on a QB especially a young one. When you look at teams that have that type of dual threat at RB the offense is usually doing pretty well unless your the KC Chiefs who have threats at every level but cant seem to plug in am offense or QB to make it work. I think you will see a huge difference with that team this year due to the coaching change Reid will get that offense going with the talent he has available no doubt in my mind.

 

The thing is RB's like a Faulk dont come along very often. Comparing a RB like Faulk to a RB by comittee situation wont work either because with with a single running back handling the load you dont have to tip your hand to the defense. The only team in the NFL right now that runs a really good RB by committee is the Saints (niners do good as well) because every back they have can both run and catch the football and all of them are threats. So when you have two backs in there they can still change up on you, not many teams can say that IMO.  I was hoping Ivory and Goodson would bring that to the Jets but with Goodson doing his thing and Ivory always seeming to be hurt ya never know.

 

A Big Posession WR is a Must and we have not had a real one since Keyshawn left. I not sure many remember just how potent our offense was in 98 with Keyshawn, Chrebet in the slot, and the dual threat of Martin in the back field but at times they were unstoppable. They were not quick strike by any means but they certainly were a great posession type offense that moved the chains when they had to. Dedric Ward (19 ypc) provided a deep threat when needed to stretch the field. Only thing that team lacked was a TE worth a crap but Brady was a great blocker for sure.

 

You're referencing 2 HOF RB's...like you said, they dont come around often and when they do, its pretty evident and they tend to go high in the draft.

 

I guess my point in general is if you're going to put a check list in order of importance based on how hard it is to find the talent, RB would be last...and it might even be last on the list all together for an offense when you think about how many Tackles and QB's are taken in the 1st.  But the real point is, there is no perfect formula.  You take what you can, when you can based on whats available, and hope that everything comes together at the right time.

 

Typically, you dont see the best skills positions players in the league become available via FA.  They are mostly found in the draft and those teams resign them.  The ones that do come available are typically stupid high money (see V Jax, Holmes or Wallace as examples) or at the end of their career and you're just praying to get a few good years of production out of them..  So with that in mind, you're targeting them in the draft and the best, are taken in the 1st.  Whereas, RB's are found all over the draft and so are TE's.

[Smashmouth]

You're referencing 2 HOF RB's...like you said, they dont come around often and when they do, its pretty evident and they tend to go high in the draft.

 

I guess my point in general is if you're going to put a check list in order of importance based on how hard it is to find the talent, RB would be last...and it might even be last on the list all together for an offense when you think about how many Tackles and QB's are taken in the 1st.  But the real point is, there is no perfect formula.  You take what you can, when you can based on whats available, and hope that everything comes together at the right time.

 

Typically, you dont see the best skills positions players in the league become available via FA.  They are mostly found in the draft and those teams resign them.  The ones that do come available are typically stupid high money (see V Jax, Holmes or Wallace as examples) or at the end of their career and you're just praying to get a few good years of production out of them..  So with that in mind, you're targeting them in the draft and the best, are taken in the 1st.  Whereas, RB's are found all over the draft and so are TE's.

 

Agreed on all points . No matter how we look at it , whats available when we pick will dictate how Idzik handles his drafts.

 

Also getting to a SB will be because a HOF player was in the mix at some point hopefully its at the QB position, that im sure will make everyone happy

[JoeKlecko]

Good points, but why did you cut off the 2010-12 teams?  The offenses of the Packers, Giants and Ravens carried those teams.  In addition, that New England team you talk about never getting back to a Super Bowl?  They had the # 31 defense and got to the Super Bowl in '11, and got to the AFC Title game last year.  If their defense were to get to a "mediocre" level this coming year, Brady might win his last title. 

 

Great QB play + good defense = Super Bowl win these days.  Great QB play + bad defense = competitive.  Bad QB play + anything = not competitive.  This is the trend of late. 

 

Every team strives for balance but finding that QB is the most effective way to get back to the playoffs again and again with consistency.  Having the QB reduces your margin for error, because you need to play perfectly if you DON'T have that QB (see:  2009 and 2010 Jets). 

 

Its why the Ravens paid all that money to Flacco, neglecting just about everything else and letting so many quality players go.  Are the Ravens suddenly stupid for overpaying a good, not great QB, who had one great playoff run?  I'm pretty sure they've been one of the class organizations over the years.  its also why the Steelers only gave Big Ben a slap on the wrist for his rape charges.  They knew they couldn't afford to try to replace him.

 

Kudos to both of you on excellent posts.  I think you both have excellent points and made strong cases for your side of the discussion.  That's why I love sites like this.  Interesting discussion and reading.

 

Smashmouth, one thing that I think would add to the discussion is for you to break down your stats a little more.  As we all know, stats can be misleading and can be used to prove points on both sides of any issue.  What I'd like to see broken down is this... 

 

73% (8) of the last 11 winners had a top 10 defense.

36% (4) of the last 11 winners had a top 10 offense.

18% (2) of the last 11 winners had both (Rams and Patriots).

 

In the case of those 8 winners with a top 10 D, I'd like to see what were the offensive rankings of their opponents, and their own offensive rankings versus the defensive rankings of their opponents. I'd like to see the same contrasting stats with the 4 winners who had a top 10 offense.  I think that would give a clearer picture.

[JoeKlecko]

Here's a good candidate under your formula T0m. 

 

 

 

Jets C Dalton Freeman has versatile skillset on o-line

 

 

Jets center Dalton Freeman could project as a guard or right tackle. (US Presswire)

Conor Orr/The Star-Ledger By  Conor Orr/The Star-Ledger  

on May 28, 2013 at 7:40 AM, updated May 28, 2013 at 8:30 AM

 

 

    

 

Throughout the offseason, we'll be looking at some of the under-the-radar players that will be competing for roster spots during OTAs and training camp. Today, we're taking a look at center Dalton Freeman out of Clemson. His college position coach, Robbie Caldwell, was kind enough to help us understand why Freeman's name has already come up a few times this offseason.

 

The first time Clemson offensive line coach Robbie Caldwell met the Freeman family in Pelion, South Carolina, he had a good feeling about Dalton.

 

His father, Ben, was the local high school coach. A former Wake Forest standout who made sure his son understood the game around him, and not just his position. His mother, Gwen, was "the perfect football wife and mom," who invited the coach to whip her son into shape.

 

"She says to me 'if he needs his butt kicked, you kick it,'" Caldwell said by phone this weekend. "Right when I first met them, I knew."

 

What Caldwell ended up with was a finalist for the Rimington Trophy, an AP second-team All-American and first-team All-ACC. As a junior on a line full of seniors, Freeman was the pace-setter, leading film sessions and piloting the offense on game day. As a senior, Freeman was a team captain. He never had to kick Freeman's butt, either.

 

"He's just brilliant on the field," Caldwell said. "He understands exactly what you're trying to do."

 

Obviously, Freeman plays one of the few positions that will be immune to GM John Idzik's competition theory. Nick Mangold is one of the highest-rated centers in the game and has proven essential to the offense's fluidity. But Caldwell ran a pull-heavy offense at Clemson, much like the Jets and feels like Freeman could easily bump out to guard. If he continues to put on weight, Caldwell said, right tackle isn't out of the conversation.

 

He also long snaps. Caldwell estimated that he's seen his center make 1,500 shotgun and long snaps, and can count the bad ones "on one hand."

 

Freeman had a sickness between his junior and senior seasons that caused him to rapidly shed weight. He was down to 265, which scared away a majority of the scouts down in Clemson. While he was recovering, Caldwell begged him to just stand in with the offense during practices because the offense couldn't run properly without him.

 

"During that fall we tried to get the young group going and he was so valuable to us," Caldwell said. "I was like, Dalton you need to give us a few plays here so we can get this thing down.'"

 

He recovered, weighing in at 296 during his Pro Day, where he ran a sub-5 40-yard dash and threw up 36 reps on the bench.

Rex Ryan, who has been talking up Freeman ever since as "the kid from Clemson" was surprised at the lack of interest. The Jets made a push to add quality depth across the offensive line this offseason and having a second option at center, as well as a potential stand-in at guard was among the priorities.

 

Caldwell, who said he left Freeman in isolation for a majority of the season last year, thinks they have a good option.

 

"We played a lot of five-man protection vs some odd fronts, and we did not mind him being on an island all by himself," he said.

Freeman had a school-record 3,361 snaps in 53 career games. He registered 171 knockdowns.

 

Thanks for the info on Freeman.  Even though I live in ACC country, I had never really heard anything about him.  He sounds like an excellent prospect at a minimum to be a versatile backup, but also sounds as if he could develop into a quality starter.  I'm gonna be rooting for this kid.

[Smashmouth]

Kudos to both of you on excellent posts.  I think you both have excellent points and made strong cases for your side of the discussion.  That's why I love sites like this.  Interesting discussion and reading.

 

Smashmouth, one thing that I think would add to the discussion is for you to break down your stats a little more.  As we all know, stats can be misleading and can be used to prove points on both sides of any issue.  What I'd like to see broken down is this... 

 

 

In the case of those 8 winners with a top 10 D, I'd like to see what were the offensive rankings of their opponents, and their own offensive rankings versus the defensive rankings of their opponents. I'd like to see the same contrasting stats with the 4 winners who had a top 10 offense.  I think that would give a clearer picture.

 

Klecko heres the thing, Im not really a stat guy. Check my post, those stats were lifted from another post I was reading on the subject when I looked up defensive rankings.....  so I did not formulate those numbers I did find them Interesting though.

[Jetsfan80]

The Giants in Both SB's got insanely hot on the defensive line and pressured the QB. The defense of the Ravens was always good and made the stop at the end to secure the SB win. And the Packers defense was ranked number 1 in the NFL, if I remember correctly, much different than the last few years where they have been horrible.

 

Joe Flacco threw 11 TD's and 0 INT's in the playoffs.  QB play drove that SB run more than anything else.

 

The 2010 Packers were ranked 2nd in points allowed and 4th in takeaways, so I'll give you that one.  They were 10th in scoring. 

 

Thing is though, their defense was 19th in points allowed (32nd in yards allowed) the next year and they went 15-1.  That's because they put up an incredible 35 points a game behind Rodgers.

 

Conclusion?  You probably can't win a Super Bowl without your defense stepping up.  You DEFINITELY can't win a Super Bowl with good QB play.  And strong QB play can win you a lot of games while you wait for the D to figure it out. 

[JoeKlecko]

Klecko heres the thing, Im not really a stat guy. Check my post, those stats were lifted from another post I was reading on the subject when I looked up defensive rankings.....  so I did not formulate those numbers I did find them Interesting though.

 

Smash, yeah, I  knew that you didn't formulate those stats and found them in an article you read.  I just hoped that they might have those additional stats in that same article, but it's no big thing.  Just thought it would have been interesting to see, but not worth the trouble for either of us to go and look all that info up year-by-year. Thanks!

[Sperm Edwards]

The Giants in Both SB's got insanely hot on the defensive line and pressured the QB. The defense of the Ravens was always good and made the stop at the end to secure the SB win. And the Packers defense was ranked number 1 in the NFL, if I remember correctly, much different than the last few years where they have been horrible.

 

lol

 

Ravens give up 31 points and you applaud them.

 

Jets defense gives up 17 points and scores 2 and you blame them for a loss.

 

The difference is the Ravens had a QB who could put up points and the Jets had Sanchez.  Anyone can see this.

The Packers' defense gave up 25 points in the superbowl and Shonn Greene is a better RB than anyone they had.

I can run down any list of champions and show major deficiencies in their teams' performances, even in the playoffs.

 

 

We had a top 5 defense, a top 5 offense, a top 5 rushing attack, and the league's best special teams unit.  Also the reigning SB MVP plus a 26-27 year old former pro bowler as our WRs, and a first round TE, to round out our receiving corps.  

 

The obvious deficiency of our team was at QB.  I can't believe you are in such denial to this day.  Sanchez is and was a no-talent bum.  He's a QB version of Vernon Gholston who was handed the starting job for 4 years.

[Matt39]

A better QB probably keeps up with the Colts....the Steelers game the defense embarrassed themselves in the first half and on the final drive with 3 to's in their pocket.

 

Both title game losses were team losses.

[Jetsfan80]

Kudos to both of you on excellent posts.  I think you both have excellent points and made strong cases for your side of the discussion.  That's why I love sites like this.  Interesting discussion and reading.

 

GFY ur dumb

[Jetsfan80]

A better QB probably keeps up with the Colts....the Steelers game the defense embarrassed themselves in the first half and on the final drive with 3 to's in their pocket.

 

Both title game losses were team losses.

 

Probably so but the common denominator in both games were horrible halves by Sanchez.  The 2nd half of the Colts game and 1st half of the Steeler game.  So that was the # 1 factor.  Better QB play and we're in the Super Bowl both times.  Period.

[T0mShane]

Probably so but the common denominator in both games were horrible halves by Sanchez. The 2nd half of the Colts game and 1st half of the Steeler game. So that was the # 1 factor. Better QB play and we're in the Super Bowl both times. Period.

You'll be telling this story to your grandkids.

[Sperm Edwards]

A better QB probably keeps up with the Colts....the Steelers game the defense embarrassed themselves in the first half and on the final drive with 3 to's in their pocket.

 

Both title game losses were team losses.

 

Which neither would have been if our QB could put serious points on the board.  The Steelers game, the fact remains the defense was responsible for giving up 17 points while scoring 2 (15 points net for the whole game).  However badly they played in the first half, the result is that the offense needed to come up with a net of 16 points to win the game and failed.  That same defense with a real QB runs away with the victory and we're in the superbowl.

[Jetsfan80]

You'll be telling this story to your grandkids.

 

 I'll be starting every story with "Boy I tell ya" and ending with "also Tom Shane is gay".

[T0mShane]

I'll be starting every story with "Boy I tell ya" and ending with "also Tom Shane is gay".

Lol

[Bleedin Green]

A better QB probably keeps up with the Colts....the Steelers game the defense embarrassed themselves in the first half and on the final drive with 3 to's in their pocket.

 

Both title game losses were team losses.

 

The Sanchez-led Jets offense netted -7 points through the first 29 minutes, -4 points in the entire first half and a grand total of +10 points for the entire freakin' game.  They also failed to convert a TD from a 1st down at the 2 freakin' yard line.  The Jets D gave up 17 points and picked up 2 points of their own.  By no measure was that a "team loss".  That was an incompetent sh*t-stain of a QB loss.

[Matt39]

Which neither would have been if our QB could put serious points on the board.  The Steelers game, the fact remains the defense was responsible for giving up 17 points while scoring 2 (15 points net for the whole game).  However badly they played in the first half, the result is that the offense needed to come up with a net of 16 points to win the game and failed.  That same defense with a real QB runs away with the victory and we're in the superbowl.

 

Defense had their chances too. Couldnt tackle, couldnt catch interceptions. 12 minute drive or whatever it was to start the game, after the Jets decided to kick off.

 

No one is running away with a game at Pittsburgh in below zero temps. The playcalling at the goal line was also atrocious. That's pretty much the game that will define rex's legacy- all the chips on the line and the defense took an entire half off because they felt they won the SB a week prior.

[Larz]

I think you have to suck at the right time

 

then you have to have a great player fall into your lap on draft day