Sperm Edwards Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 2 hours ago, Integrity28 said: I know what you said. I also know that you're ignoring several realities in favor of a hypothetical "cost" argument. As I've already stated, the history of bad drafting has resulted in a dearth of talent on this roster. This is indisputable and fundamental to the discussion of a "acquire comp picks" strategy. Someone pointed out how Idzik was "very good" as this aspect of his job - but the reality is that he had to consciously throw away season in order to accumulate comp picks. This is horrific. This FO wants to be competitive, annually, and to draft BPA. This much we've come to know as true. As part of this strategy, they have used FA to address immediate needs at the front-end of the roster, where we are shallow, in hopes that the influx of good drafting they will (hopefully) do will slowly augment the back-end of the roster - and in time become the new front-end. In order to accomplish this, the FO has to spend their cap space on a certain caliber of player. Meaning, the likelihood of signing back-end talent in order to secure comp picks is fundamentally unrealistic. We use FA to add viable, impactful veterans. Not guys who can compete to be the backup to the backup. Since all evidence points to this being core to the "right now" strategy, we should be able to conclude (based on this evidence) that the FO was never going to make a transaction of the type that would earn them these illustrious comp picks you so long for.... therefore, we never had them... so we can't "lose" them. You can't count something as a cost, if there was never a realistic possibility of having them. The FO strategy of using FA to fill holes so we can be competitive right now is what "costs" us comp picks... it's conscious choice, by the FO, to not value them over being immediately competitive. Anyway, this FO has made it clear that they aren't on a win later schedule. If they hadn't signed these RBs, then they would have signed FAs at other need positions of a similar caliber - which means they wouldn't have gotten the comp picks. So, the point you are making is unrealistic. Yes, it could be hypothetically true, in a very specific scenario in which we ignore everything we know about the state of the team and the approach of the FO. I think it's foolish to do that. And the reality still remains that rebuilding your RB corps by adding 2 veteran RBs for $10 and whatever forfeit of comp picks is still better economics than using your $10m toward a portion of a mediocre CB's contract, and ulimately the comp picks he would force us to forfeit too. So, even if I ignore the unrealistic nature of your argument, that we "lose" comp picks - it is still cheaper to spend on FA RB's than premium contract positions. It is better for the economics of the team to have a steady stream of players that typically get the big 2nd contracts coming from the draft. Seems pretty basic to me. You are engaging in idol worship based on what you want to believe, right down to your still blind acceptance of their drafting based on BAP. You would be hard pressed to find any better example of a FO drafting for positional need and not just drafting BAP. The reason people follow this now ridiculous claim in sheep-like fashion presumably stems from once drafting Leonard Williams when he inexplicably fell to them. Even he could be argued as a need within a year max, based on Mo's status and Sheldon's initial failed tests, even if he not seem an immediate/obvious need on that day. Of COURSE they are costs. You accepting them as "we had no choice" does not make it so. It is no accident that some teams seem to always get comp picks every year, and they aren't "tanking" the season to do so. They are conscious of what type of players they add in seasons they lose multiple UFAs. It is not by providence or accident. It is planned. As though failing to ink 2 UFA RBs and yet another DE-DT defines "tanking the season" in any way. I didn't notice you repeatedly suggesting we needed to sign two UFA RBs, a third (RFA) RB, and another UFA DE-DT until after they did so. They have costs greater than the mere dollars, and if we'd traded for them outright (which would have the same net effect) no one would say "oh we could never really wait to use those picks anyway." With that rationale why not always trade next year's 4th-5th rd picks for mid-tier veterans on shorter deals this year? The only difference is the compensatory label attached to some picks. But picks are picks; you either make the picks or trade them away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 2 hours ago, NYs Stepchild said: Robinson is going to be a lot better than people think. It's only a one year contract or I'd say he was going to be worth it. We really needed those tackles. I'm not sure who you would have preferred. I never once said any of the 3 RBs acquired wasn't worth it. I only pointed out the obvious cost and am getting argument that their cost isn't a cost because we like the people taken and like the people making the acquisitions. Then this irrefutable point was obfuscated by a claim if we didn't add exactly who we did then it is tantamount to tanking the season, and therefore there is no cost. Khiry didn't cost anything of significance. He did not cost a draft pick and only an insignificant amount is guaranteed (he could still theoretically get cut and the sting wouldn't be felt). He is cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powpow Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 14 hours ago, Warfish said: What could go wrong, we're all set! Weren't those the last words before the Titantic sailed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdxgreen Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 I'm so glad I don't subscribe to that sh*t heel cable station any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
win4ever Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 7 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said: I just don't think, as a backup, Jenkins is worth $1M/year plus a 4th round draft pick to have over someone like Douzable for a year or two. If we wanted him to be a starter - a long-term starter at that - then that would be different. I think it depends on your outlook for the season. I think the Jets front office has approached this as if this is a team that is on the cusp of playoffs. It would explain their initial inclination to have Fitz come back, or trade the farm to get Goff. I believe they view this season as one where they will be right in the hunt for a playoff berth, so they didn't want to chance holes on the roster. Otherwise, letting Powell go and not signing Forte or Jenkins made sense. I don't think the front office is good with picks, infact it really reminds me of the Tannenbaum era where there were constant trades and picks moved about. When Tanny first started, he made some really nice picks, but then fell apart because he loved his trading ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77DRAFT Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 15 hours ago, TheMagicRat said: Ndamukong Suh and Ryan Tannehill extension give Dolphins top offseason grade Jun 19, 2015 James WalkerESPN Staff Writer Email print comment With offseason workouts and minicamps in the rearview mirror and training camps just a few weeks away, we assess the Miami Dolphins' offseason moves and assign a letter grade in the video above. Best move: Is there any debate on Miami's best move? The Dolphins landed the biggest catch in the free-agent market by signing Pro Bowl defensive tackleNdamukong Suh to a $114 million contract, which is an NFL record for a defensive player. Miami broke the bank for Suh. But the Dolphins landed a dominant defensive tackle in his prime and a new anchor of their front seven. Suh has been impressive and disruptive in offseason practices. He has a very good first step combined with the strength to penetrate the offensive line. An underrated aspect of Suh's game is the ability to make others around him better. Players such as Pro Bowl defensive end Cameron Wake and Miami's linebackers should benefit from Suh's presence in the middle of Miami’s defense. Riskiest move: The Dolphins’ riskiest move this offseason is not solidifying the guard position. Miami has two major question marks at guard. Unproven linemen Dallas Thomas and Billy Turner began the offseason as early favorites to start. However, the positions remain wide open. Miami signed part-time starter Jeff Linkenbach in free agency and drafted Jamil Douglas to add competition. Eventually, the Dolphins must choose between two of these four players. There is a chance the Dolphins could pursue Pro Bowl guard Evan Mathis, who was recently released by the Philadelphia Eagles. But Mathis is looking for a sizable, multiyear contract that likely is too rich for the Dolphins, who already spent plenty of money this offseason. In-house business: The Dolphins didn’t just focus on outside additions. Miami also took care of major in-house business with its star players. The Dolphins made a shrewd move to quickly sign quarterback Ryan Tannehill to a $96 million contract extension. Miami was the first team to extend its quarterback from the 2012 class and kept Tannehill under the $100 million threshold. Waiting until fellow Class of 2012 quarterbacks Andrew Luck andRussell Wilson likely get their extensions would have only raised Tannehill's price tag. The signing signifies that the Dolphins are Tannehill's team. Miami also made a big move on its offensive line by signing Pro Bowl center Mike Pouncey to a $52.15 million extension. Tannehill and Pouncey are two franchise building blocks in Miami for years to come. Training camp outlook: The Dolphins are in very good standing heading into training camp. By all accounts, the offseason program was a success and, most importantly, the Dolphins avoided any major injuries that could cost them in the regular season. I've covered Miami and the AFC East division since 2011, and this is the most optimistic I’ve seen Dolphins players and coaches entering a season. There is a quiet confidence about this group knowing it has the most talent, on paper, that it has had in several years. The key between now and September is for Miami to make sure its "paper" talent translates well on the field. This proves the guys an idiot, espn is still a male obsessed bunch of losers. Gayest organization ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j4jets Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 17 hours ago, nyjunc said: I think this offseason has been almost perfect outside of not having a resolution w/ Mo. they have handled Fitz perfectly, made some nice low $ moves and hopefully this draft turns out to be a good one(too early to evaluate obviously). I do agree with the writer that we paid too much at the RB spot. Could've let Powell walk, picked up a comp pick for him and drafted a young RB in the 3rd or 4th round. Besides Forte, we signed a bunch of nobodies with the limited resources we had, thanks to our lavish spendings last year! With not much care for future cap. The one thing we did do right was not bringing back a backup QB wanting Brady money. I wouldn't even pay him the reported $7m. Mand I think we should've dealt Mo for a first rounder. Plenty of teams out there with sh*t tons of cap and I'm sure there were plenty of discussions but I'm sure we could've easily dealt him for a conditional 2nd this that could jump to a 1st next year. Would've saved us 15+ mil this year and could've carried an extra $5m for 2017 to make a real push. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 2 hours ago, win4ever said: I think it depends on your outlook for the season. I think the Jets front office has approached this as if this is a team that is on the cusp of playoffs. It would explain their initial inclination to have Fitz come back, or trade the farm to get Goff. I believe they view this season as one where they will be right in the hunt for a playoff berth, so they didn't want to chance holes on the roster. Otherwise, letting Powell go and not signing Forte or Jenkins made sense. I don't think the front office is good with picks, infact it really reminds me of the Tannenbaum era where there were constant trades and picks moved about. When Tanny first started, he made some really nice picks, but then fell apart because he loved his trading ways. I can understand that, but by the time they made these signings it was known to the team that Fitz would be very difficult to re-sign as he was adamantly demanding $16M or he'd retire, and further, that teams again weren't pushing each other out of the way with offers for Mo (rendering Jenkins an unnecessary upgrade from Douzable, if the difference is even that noticeable). What bugs me about it - as I've mentioned a few times - is that Maccagnan is precisely the type of GM I want to be using his draft picks to draft players. The very point of having a scout/draft guru GM, to me, is to get more young talent from the college ranks and see the value of someone who's slipped, not to trade away those opportunities for veterans who will be gone after 2-3 years if they even fully play out their Jets contracts. I mean really, was Douzable really that horrid of a rotational DE-DT, where Jenkins was worth losing a 4th round draft pick for the 1-2 year short term upgrade? Possibly, but it's a tough sell for me, and Bowles sure seemed comfortable using Douzable a lot when Sheldon was out. IMO Maccagnan should be finding a future starting RB/CB/OL/LB with that 4th round pick next year; a kid who's slipped through the draft to that point and we get him, locked up for dirt cheap through the 2020 season on his rookie contract alone. Just seems to me it's getting rationalized away because someone likes Macc so much that his sh*t doesn't stink, when the truth is it stinks when anybody lays a turd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYs Stepchild Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 7 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said: How did the OLine get better? Hoping and praying the Clady not only is healthy but returns to form while the right side continues to be below average? How are the DBs better? They don't even have a clear cut #2 cornerback at this point and the depth at the position is a huge issue as well. Safety is fine, corner is a huge question mark. Brick was not good last year. Winters will be better, or replaced with Harrison, or Dozier who will play better. Carpenter should also be better in year 2. Cro was horrible last year, and Revis was injured. Skrine is very good. Williams is going to be a star. Pryor is in year 3. Just came out last year, and should be much better. We could be slightly better, or much better depending how things work out. Can't be worse in these two positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowlesMovement Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 9 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said: Go back and read what I said. That is not a valid interpretation to make. Only a few times in this thread alone I said I like both of the RBs precisely because it's a great asset for a young QB. I do think the Jenkins signing was less than brilliant, though. I'm pointing out the added costs of these supposedly cheap players. But in general if there's one thing I want to see more of Macc doing it's using his scouting skills in drafting young players, not trading next year's picks away for older stopgaps and backups. If he's so gung ho on a SB run this year why is he accepting Geno Smith as his starting QB after dangling Mo Wilk for a draft pick? It's a bit of a contradiction, no? I read what you said just fine, I just think its your typical looking for something to complain about a player or coach or GM that you don't like, nitpicking. Gung ho on a SB run? LOL, what are you talking about? I have never once seen anything he or anyone else said make me believe he is gung ho on a SB run. As for Geno, you have stated many, many times, that Geno Smith can do every bit as good if not better than Fitz, because Fitz is pretty much the worst QB on the planet, who does nothing good other than his leadership, which basically counts for nothing, so that is a bit of a contradiction, no? All that being said, he is doing exactly what anyone who is paying attention can clearly see, he is trying to field a competitive team, while also building for the long haul. So he is not going to over pay for Fitz for one year, because he is NOT gung ho on a SB run, but if he can get him at HIS price, and it can make the Jets more competitive this year, while planning for the future, he will. Its easy for any one of us to say Fk now, we aint winning a SB, tank it and build for the future, but he cannot do that, or the dumb ass fan base will be putting up billboards and calling for his penis to be chopped off. This is not you taking an opposite stance for the point of good debate, this is you nitpicking and looking for something to bash, because you don't like him. Just as you do with Bowles, Fitzpatrick, and you NEVER did with Rex, Idzik or Geno. Its all good, but its a bit funny seeing how your so concerned with what is best for the Jets long term, and then you will go on a rant about the amount of time left when we put in a draft pick, and never had a bad word to say about Rex, Idzik or Geno, who were far worse for the Jets than Bowles or Mac at least now appear to be, and FItz was last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowlesMovement Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said: I can understand that, but by the time they made these signings it was known to the team that Fitz would be very difficult to re-sign as he was adamantly demanding $16M or he'd retire, and further, that teams again weren't pushing each other out of the way with offers for Mo (rendering Jenkins an unnecessary upgrade from Douzable, if the difference is even that noticeable). What bugs me about it - as I've mentioned a few times - is that Maccagnan is precisely the type of GM I want to be using his draft picks to draft players. The very point of having a scout/draft guru GM, to me, is to get more young talent from the college ranks and see the value of someone who's slipped, not to trade away those opportunities for veterans who will be gone after 2-3 years if they even fully play out their Jets contracts. I mean really, was Douzable really that horrid of a rotational DE-DT, where Jenkins was worth losing a 4th round draft pick for the 1-2 year short term upgrade? Possibly, but it's a tough sell for me, and Bowles sure seemed comfortable using Douzable a lot when Sheldon was out. IMO Maccagnan should be finding a future starting RB/CB/OL/LB with that 4th round pick next year; a kid who's slipped through the draft to that point and we get him, locked up for dirt cheap through the 2020 season on his rookie contract alone. Just seems to me it's getting rationalized away because someone likes Macc so much that his sh*t doesn't stink, when the truth is it stinks when anybody lays a turd. The reality is every QB, HC, GM, etc. lays a turd, and they all stink.... But sane objective fans recognize this and don't look to make a crime scene out of every turd which is a bad play or a move that turned out questionable. You ignore the turds of "your guys", and even call the farts of the guys you hate a turd, and point at them screaming that they crapped their pants every time. You go to the opposite extreme. Its all good, its your fandom here, but plenty of people see right through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 30 minutes ago, BowlesMovement said: I read what you said just fine, I just think its your typical looking for something to complain about a player or coach or GM that you don't like, nitpicking. Gung ho on a SB run? LOL, what are you talking about? I have never once seen anything he or anyone else said make me believe he is gung ho on a SB run. As for Geno, you have stated many, many times, that Geno Smith can do every bit as good if not better than Fitz, because Fitz is pretty much the worst QB on the planet, who does nothing good other than his leadership, which basically counts for nothing, so that is a bit of a contradiction, no? All that being said, he is doing exactly what anyone who is paying attention can clearly see, he is trying to field a competitive team, while also building for the long haul. So he is not going to over pay for Fitz for one year, because he is NOT gung ho on a SB run, but if he can get him at HIS price, and it can make the Jets more competitive this year, while planning for the future, he will. Its easy for any one of us to say Fk now, we aint winning a SB, tank it and build for the future, but he cannot do that, or the dumb ass fan base will be putting up billboards and calling for his penis to be chopped off. This is not you taking an opposite stance for the point of good debate, this is you nitpicking and looking for something to bash, because you don't like him. Just as you do with Bowles, Fitzpatrick, and you NEVER did with Rex, Idzik or Geno. Its all good, but its a bit funny seeing how your so concerned with what is best for the Jets long term, and then you will go on a rant about the amount of time left when we put in a draft pick, and never had a bad word to say about Rex, Idzik or Geno, who were far worse for the Jets than Bowles or Mac at least now appear to be, and FItz was last year. Wow, literally none of this is true. But then, I guess you see what you want to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowlesMovement Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 12 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said: Wow, literally none of this is true. But then, I guess you see what you want to see. Aight, guess so.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 29 minutes ago, BowlesMovement said: The reality is every QB, HC, GM, etc. lays a turd, and they all stink.... But sane objective fans recognize this and don't look to make a crime scene out of every turd which is a bad play or a move that turned out questionable. You ignore the turds of "your guys", and even call the farts of the guys you hate a turd, and point at them screaming that they crapped their pants every time. You go to the opposite extreme. Its all good, its your fandom here, but plenty of people see right through it. So right from his first season if I start out that Ryan was stupid for putting Sanchez out there as a rookie, and have plenty to say on that, and leaving him in through pick after pick, that is ignoring him (right from the get go). I didn't make a crime scene out of it. I said that a pair of veteran RBs weren't so cheap because they are among the higher paid tandems and they cost us the compensatory picks we would have otherwise received. This sent Ape into a tizzy because apparently nobody actually receives compensatory picks unless they plan to tank the season, or if they lose 7-8 UFAs to offset the 4-5 they simply must add to stay competitive. That is what this was all about. It wasn't even a criticism; it was stating the obvious (that losing the comp picks was part of their cost). I even said, repeatedly, I like that he picked the RBs up, even if this was part of their cost. But no matter, some are so hypersensitive to anything they perceive as criticism that it's like seeing their mom punched in the mug I suppose. The one I really didn't like was adding Jenkins, because IMO a backup DE-DT on a 1-2 year deal is not worth losing a 4th rounder over. But if I dare point this out, I'm creating a "crime scene" to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted May 11, 2016 Author Share Posted May 11, 2016 1 hour ago, NYs Stepchild said: Brick was not good last year. Winters will be better, or replaced with Harrison, or Dozier who will play better. Carpenter should also be better in year 2. Cro was horrible last year, and Revis was injured. Skrine is very good. Williams is going to be a star. Pryor is in year 3. Just came out last year, and should be much better. We could be slightly better, or much better depending how things work out. Can't be worse in these two positions. Winters will be better why? He's pretty much hit his ceiling. Or he could be replaced with two unknown long shots that will be better, why? Do you have any evidence that this is the case or are you just shooting for the moon. Cro was bad last year. Skrine was worse. Revis may have played hurt last season, but he's still on the decline. Williams might be a star or he might be the other guy we say last year who was exposed in lengthy snaps. After that there is nothing on the roster at all that inspires confidence at corner. Again, I hope for the best for Jets players but I'm also realistic. Most of what you hope will happen has no basis is in facts or stats. Just wishes on birthday candles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 4 minutes ago, BowlesMovement said: Aight, guess so.... Then start with this one: "As for Geno, you have stated many, many times, that Geno Smith can do every bit as good if not better than Fitz, because Fitz is pretty much the worst QB on the planet" Go find these many, many times. Should be easy if I kept stating as much, and you're not just making it up. Then we can move onto the rest of the fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowlesMovement Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Just now, Sperm Edwards said: So right from his first season if I start out that Ryan was stupid for putting Sanchez out there as a rookie, and have plenty to say on that, and leaving him in through pick after pick, that is ignoring him (right from the get go). I didn't make a crime scene out of it. I said that a pair of veteran RBs weren't so cheap because they are among the higher paid tandems and they cost us the compensatory picks we would have otherwise received. This sent Ape into a tizzy because apparently nobody actually receives compensatory picks unless they plan to tank the season, or if they lose 7-8 UFAs to offset the 4-5 they simply must add to stay competitive. That is what this was all about. It wasn't even a criticism; it was stating the obvious (that losing the comp picks was part of their cost). I even said, repeatedly, I like that he picked the RBs up, even if this was part of their cost. But no matter, some are so hypersensitive to anything they perceive as criticism that it's like seeing their mom punched in the mug I suppose. The one I really didn't like was adding Jenkins, because IMO a backup DE-DT on a 1-2 year deal is not worth losing a 4th rounder over. But if I dare point this out, I'm creating a "crime scene" to you. You can and do point out anything you want, its all good. In my opinion, you tend to point out negative things for certain people that you would leave out for other people, while pretty much never saying a positive thing for those people. For example. when Fitz was winning the 5 in a row, you did not say one thing, but the second the Jets lost the Bills game, you had a ton to say, and have not stopped since. Its all good my friend, I am just a hypersensitive biatch..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYs Stepchild Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 9 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said: Winters will be better why? He's pretty much hit his ceiling. Or he could be replaced with two unknown long shots that will be better, why? Do you have any evidence that this is the case or are you just shooting for the moon. Cro was bad last year. Skrine was worse. Revis may have played hurt last season, but he's still on the decline. Williams might be a star or he might be the other guy we say last year who was exposed in lengthy snaps. After that there is nothing on the roster at all that inspires confidence at corner. Again, I hope for the best for Jets players but I'm also realistic. Most of what you hope will happen has no basis is in facts or stats. Just wishes on birthday candles. I didn't say Winters would play better. I said he will play better or be replaced. Why? Because they couldn't be worse. Skrine was not worse than Cro. That's ridiculous. Once again we will be better without Cro because we couldn't be worse. Bowles should not have kept putting him out there, and Williams was better when he did play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Just now, BowlesMovement said: You can and do point out anything you want, its all good. In my opinion, you tend to point out negative things for certain people that you would leave out for other people, while pretty much never saying a positive thing for those people. For example. when Fitz was winning the 5 in a row, you did not say one thing, but the second the Jets lost the Bills game, you had a ton to say, and have not stopped since. Its all good my friend, I am just a hypersensitive biatch..... False, again. Whenever he made a perfect throw I said it. Whenever someone made a brutal drop that was on the receiver not Fitz I said it. I like seeing the Jets win. You are indeed very sensitive to that which you disagree, and ignore that which you agree with. It's not uncommon. No one could type the words "Rex" or "Geno" in any thread without you jumping in within 1 minute to remind everyone of an opinion you had long since overstated, along with grossly exaggerating anyone's opinion of either. This continues to right now. If one didn't hate Ryan with the power of 1000 suns, then you classify that as loving him and that he can do no wrong. If one doesn't love every thing that the current QB/HC/GM does, then to you this is tantamount to hating them with the power of 1000 suns. For chrissake I said I wanted to see Maccagnan draft more players because I believe he would be good at it and would build us a winner. This, to you, means I hate him and have no faith in him. We all have our own ideas of what makes us good fans. I don't expect everyone to agree on every player/coach/GM; if we all did there would be no purpose to the message board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 On 5/11/2016 at 6:50 AM, BowlesMovement said: IThis is not you taking an opposite stance for the point of good debate, this is you nitpicking and looking for something to bash, because you don't like him. Just as you do with Bowles, Fitzpatrick, and you NEVER did with Rex, Idzik or Geno. Its all good, but its a bit funny seeing how your so concerned with what is best for the Jets long term, and then you will go on a rant about the amount of time left when we put in a draft pick, and never had a bad word to say about Rex, Idzik or Geno, who were far worse for the Jets than Bowles or Mac at least now appear to be, and FItz was last year. http://forums.jetnation.com/topic/108459-fire-rex-ryan/?page=3 (From Nov 2012 thread "Fire Rex Ryan"): (I just colored the parts in red now for emphasis) Quote I like some things about Rex. But anyone who doesn't dress a #2 QB for a football game - particularly when his #1 plays like #2 more often than not - is letting his personal feelings for a player cloud what any dumbass casual fan knows is the right thing. Scratch that -- not the right thing to do; it's the obvious thing. It's not even subject to opinion. You dress 2 QBs for every football game unless you have no idea what you're doing. And further, he didn't get much, or enough, resistance (or enough) from his offensive coordinator or other coaches. It's a move of such unbridled incompetence I don't know that he can talk his way out of it. That Tebow wasn't merely sore, but that he has 2 broken ribs and the pain is so bad he can't even casually throw to a kid on the sideline? I can absolutely see keeping the extent of the injury under wraps during the week leading up to the game so NE has to spend practice time preparing for Tebow. But once gameday is here you activate 2 QBs. Practice is over and Belichick isn't going to get fooled or thrown off his game by seeing Tebow in pads on the sideline. C'mon. The job is too much for him to handle. When the curtain gets pulled back and we see things like this (to say nothing his refusal to bench Sanchez for even a single series, let alone a single game), just imagine all that wedon't see. The notion - or hope - that we see all or even most of his buffoonery is probably some serious wishful thinking. Because if Sanchez played well, even in a loss, we might not have even known about this. Imagine what else we don't know about. Say he really believes Sanchez is actually good. In the event of a blowout one way or the other, why risk your franchise QB by having him drop back to pass on what are then meaningless snaps late in the game? Seems to me that is an ideal time to get a backup some live snaps even to protect your starter. He can handle things when they're going well but so can lots of other coaches who aren't up to the job. Quote If a new GM really thinks Rex is getting the heave-ho, then do it right away. We have another draft and FA period coming up. If a new GM - assuming there even is one - is ok with a true, full overhaul then we shouldn't be burning another set of picks on players who fit Rex's 1970s-90s "schemes" on both sides of the ball. Also a new HC/OC/QBC can be an unbiased source for what they do with Sanchez in 2014 (start him, bench him, or just cut him outright). Clearly Rex's judgment on the subject cannot be trusted and Sparano hasn't exactly impressed everyone either. But I never had anything bad to say about him. I only looked in 1 thread that caught my eye from its title. But I guess if you read between the lines you can actually see I really had his balls and toes in my mouth when I typed this. There's plenty more, as there is on Geno, Idzik, or whoever else you claim I never said a bad thing about, and complimentary things about Fitz, Maccagnan, or whoever else, but I'm not spending my morning going through my thousands of posts (in part because my posts take too long to read, and reading through 2 weeks' worth of my posts would take a month lol). I'm just saying that you ignore it because, as is common, an opinion doesn't catch your attention when it's something you agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blocker Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 1 hour ago, NYs Stepchild said: I didn't say Winters would play better. I said he will play better or be replaced. Why? Because they couldn't be worse. Skrine was not worse than Cro. That's ridiculous. Once again we will be better without Cro because we couldn't be worse. Bowles should not have kept putting him out there, and Williams was better when he did play. I tend to agree with your more positive take on the OL and DB's, but am I think somewhat more skeptical than you. First on the OL - while I loved having Ferguson on the team as a solid and early on stable vet presence, he looked to be in significant decline the last couple of years, and that was likely to continue. This was certainly why he retired, meaning the combo of the team looking for him to accept a salary cut and him recognizing that was based on reality. Clady if healthy should be an upgrade certainly over what we were otherwise likely to see from Ferguson this year, and even compared to last year. The if part is the reason for caution. This will be a real problem if he's not healthy. I also like your point about Winters. I do think there's a reasonable possibility he plays better, but there's no reason to think he will be worse. He's not at the point of his career where we should expect backsliding, and there are some others on the roster who could step in. I like Qvale, for example. ANd it is also reasonable to expect a continued contribution from Carpenter that might even include an upgrade there. Still I am not a Giacomini fan, and all of this depends on Mangold not regressing and staying healthy. Still on the whole I think the OL will be better if only at the least marginally so. DB seems to involve more variables. Available info is that Revis was ailing. While he is at an age where he is likely to continue losing a bit of speed as we go along, I think he will play better if he returns to health. And as you note it is entirely reasonable to expect Pryor to continue his upward trajectory. No one mentioned Gilchrist in this discussion here, but I liked him for the most part, and Skrine as well, especially playing the nickel. But... the key will be what they do at #2 cb, and I have my doubts. I'd love to feel more confident there about Williams, but it seemed to me most of his big plays occurred while he was facing the Qb, not with his back to the Qb while he was covering his man one on one. Williams will be a huge part of whether the Jets are successful this year in the backfield, since I do not like the idea of putting Skrine at #2 all the time. In conclusion, I think both these units are likely to be at least somewhat better than last year, but I am not quite as confident as you seem to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted May 11, 2016 Author Share Posted May 11, 2016 2 hours ago, NYs Stepchild said: I didn't say Winters would play better. I said he will play better or be replaced. Why? Because they couldn't be worse. Skrine was not worse than Cro. That's ridiculous. Once again we will be better without Cro because we couldn't be worse. Bowles should not have kept putting him out there, and Williams was better when he did play. Oh okay. Here I was under the impression you watched the games and could comprehend what you were seeing. I assumed too much of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowlesMovement Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said: http://forums.jetnation.com/topic/108459-fire-rex-ryan/?page=3 (From Nov 2012 thread "Fire Rex Ryan"): (I just colored the parts in red now for emphasis) But I never had anything bad to say about him. I only looked in 1 thread that caught my eye from its title. But I guess if you read between the lines you can actually see I really had his balls and toes in my mouth when I typed this. There's plenty more, as there is on Geno, Idzik, or whoever else you claim I never said a bad thing about, and complimentary things about Fitz, Maccagnan, or whoever else, but I'm not spending my morning going through my thousands of posts (in part because my posts take too long to read and reading through 2 weeks' worth of my posts would take a month lol). I'm just saying that you ignore it because, as is common, an opinion doesn't catch your attention when it's something you agree with. I don't recall seeing these posts, and I readily admit that I don't keep a log or journal of all of your positive and negative opinions, but I do have a mental note of who it appears you like and don't like. But either way, its all good brother, maybe your just the type of poster who is more likely to post criticism than praise, don't know, maybe I am a hypersensitive biatch..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 6 minutes ago, Big Blocker said: I tend to agree with your more positive take on the OL and DB's, but am I think somewhat more skeptical than you. First on the OL - while I loved having Ferguson on the team as a solid and early on stable vet presence, he looked to be in significant decline the last couple of years, and that was likely to continue. This was certainly why he retired, meaning the combo of the team looking for him to accept a salary cut and him recognizing that was based on reality. Clady if healthy should be an upgrade certainly over what we were otherwise likely to see from Ferguson this year, and even compared to last year. The if part is the reason for caution. This will be a real problem if he's not healthy. I also like your point about Winters. I do think there's a reasonable possibility he plays better, but there's no reason to think he will be worse. He's not at the point of his career where we should expect backsliding, and there are some others on the roster who could step in. I like Qvale, for example. ANd it is also reasonable to expect a continued contribution from Carpenter that might even include an upgrade there. Still I am not a Giacomini fan, and all of this depends on Mangold not regressing and staying healthy. Still on the whole I think the OL will be better if only at the least marginally so. DB seems to involve more variables. Available info is that Revis was ailing. While he is at an age where he is likely to continue losing a bit of speed as we go along, I think he will play better if he returns to health. And as you note it is entirely reasonable to expect Pryor to continue his upward trajectory. No one mentioned Gilchrist in this discussion here, but I liked him for the most part, and Skrine as well, especially playing the nickel. But... the key will be what they do at #2 cb, and I have my doubts. I'd love to feel more confident there about Williams, but it seemed to me most of his big plays occurred while he was facing the Qb, not with his back to the Qb while he was covering his man one on one. Williams will be a huge part of whether the Jets are successful this year in the backfield, since I do not like the idea of putting Skrine at #2 all the time. In conclusion, I think both these units are likely to be at least somewhat better than last year, but I am not quite as confident as you seem to be. +1 I wish I'd written this. One, because I agree with literally all of it. Two, because it was long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Just now, BowlesMovement said: I don't recall seeing these posts, and I readily admit that I don't keep a log or journal of all of your positive and negative opinions, but I do have a mental note of who it appears you like and don't like. But either way, its all good brother, maybe your just the type of poster who is more likely to post criticism than praise, don't know, maybe I am a hypersensitive biatch..... Maybe both of those things. Or maybe it's more than maybe lol. Maybe your luck will turn and I'll end this post now instead of 3 paragraphs later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowlesMovement Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Just now, Sperm Edwards said: Maybe both of those things. Or maybe it's more than maybe lol. Maybe your luck will turn and I'll end this post now instead of 3 paragraphs later. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blocker Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Regarding this discussion involving whether (as it seems) the FO is trying to field a competitive team at the same time they are rebuilding parts of it, and if that can and has led to missteps hurting the overall goal of fielding a team that could compete for the SB, couple of points. First of all some blame the fans for the situation, which concededly is partly true. But it's not that the fans on this are totally wrong. I don't see how a team can come out of nowhere having held in reserve a bunch of cap money for FA's and hoarding draft picks and then put together a Super Bowl team after a few years having a losing record. Part of it is that is not the way SB winners are put together. I get the theory behind hoarding, but no one seems to be able to successfully make it happen. Another factor is I do believe that winning is partly a matter of attitude and expectation, and you can't turn that attitude and expectation off and on. It helps in short to have a culture of winning on a team, a way that past success leads to more of the same. AN experience of how a team has won in the past is important in continuing and improving on that in the future. Related to the preceding point is that SB winners are ones that have a core of veteran players who are above average and lead the team both on the field during games but also in every other aspect of fielding a winner. And such players have too short a time for their careers to accept a couple or few down years wallowing in losses and bad play. Players who are good want to win, and you don't need the other kind to win a Super Bowl. Team chemistry is another related consideration. It comes together over at least some period of time, and not by sprinkling pixie dust. Part of it is how much time is available to the CS to evaluate players and put together effective game plans and playbooks. In short the foregoing argues that while it is obviously stupid to sign contracts that will kill your team in years you might have been even more competitive down the road, I think it is bad football to tank seasons based on a concept of hoarding. The theory behind hoarding just has too many problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blocker Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 8 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said: +1 I wish I'd written this. One, because I agree with literally all of it. Two, because it was long. Heh! Well while I assume the second point is a backhanded compliment, it is still a compliment. It was as long as it needed to be, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 1 minute ago, Big Blocker said: Heh! Well while I assume the second point is a backhanded compliment, it is still a compliment. It was as long as it needed to be, imo. That's what I always say! It's not backhanded if it comes from me. Maybe from the others here who don't appreciate the poetry of long posts, but not from me. Never. Never. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity28 Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 9 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said: You are engaging in idol worship based on what you want to believe, right down to your still blind acceptance of their drafting based on BAP. You would be hard pressed to find any better example of a FO drafting for positional need and not just drafting BAP. The reason people follow this now ridiculous claim in sheep-like fashion presumably stems from once drafting Leonard Williams when he inexplicably fell to them. Even he could be argued as a need within a year max, based on Mo's status and Sheldon's initial failed tests, even if he not seem an immediate/obvious need on that day. Of COURSE they are costs. You accepting them as "we had no choice" does not make it so. It is no accident that some teams seem to always get comp picks every year, and they aren't "tanking" the season to do so. They are conscious of what type of players they add in seasons they lose multiple UFAs. It is not by providence or accident. It is planned. As though failing to ink 2 UFA RBs and yet another DE-DT defines "tanking the season" in any way. I didn't notice you repeatedly suggesting we needed to sign two UFA RBs, a third (RFA) RB, and another UFA DE-DT until after they did so. They have costs greater than the mere dollars, and if we'd traded for them outright (which would have the same net effect) no one would say "oh we could never really wait to use those picks anyway." With that rationale why not always trade next year's 4th-5th rd picks for mid-tier veterans on shorter deals this year? The only difference is the compensatory label attached to some picks. But picks are picks; you either make the picks or trade them away. Yeah, okay Sperm. I'm not interested in pursuing every derivative argument you create here. Your initial point is a conditional argument, and there is zero evidence to support ever meeting those conditions. You seem content to disregard the holistic impact of cause and effect, as well as history as an indicator of future behavior. That's fine, it's just naive. Ultimately, there's nothing about your initial point that disproves my statement about the economics of re-stocking our RB cabinet via FA. Signing veteran RBs is cheaper than signing veteran's at premium contract positions. If you want to factor in the loss of comp picks, that's fine - you have to factor it for the RBs we signed, or the other positions we would have signed had we not chosen to sign RBs instead. Either way, the comp picks wouldn't have been earned. We've reach the point where I'm finding new ways to say the same things back to you, while you splinter talking points towards exhaustion. It's not a discussion anymore. Enjoy your Wednesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainejet Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Everyone should have known that although Mac made some noble efforts to replace the losses of Snacks and Brick, the success/failure of the 2016 NYJ was riding on the draft. It all boiled down to the draft. Mac selected a part time little midget linebacker and a whole bunch of role players. ZERO starters and he completely ignored the offense. No one should wonder why this season is going to be so hard for Jets fans. We have an incompetent GM and HC that does not know what he's doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcat Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 4 minutes ago, Mainejet said: Everyone should have known that although Mac made some noble efforts to replace the losses of Snacks and Brick, the success/failure of the 2016 NYJ was riding on the draft. It all boiled down to the draft. Mac selected a part time little midget linebacker and a whole bunch of role players. ZERO starters and he completely ignored the offense. No one should wonder why this season is going to be so hard for Jets fans. We have an incompetent GM and HC that does not know what he's doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerfish Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 14 hours ago, Integrity28 said: Brings us back to the history of bad drafting. We aren't a successful team, we don't have the luxury of becoming relevant while signing lesser players. maybe in a couple years. in the meantime, no. In a couple years? In a couple years marshall is gone, decker maybe, revis probably, mangold for sure. And there we we sit having let a couple more picks each year waft away becasue we figured we were closer than we were. A massive issue with this team right now is QB. If they really felt they were close they would have pulled the strings to for sure sign Fitzpatrick or if not that gone hard after a Qb that could maybe win. We are making some moves as if we are close to winning and then not making the most important move in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blocker Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said: That's what I always say! It's not backhanded if it comes from me. Maybe from the others here who don't appreciate the poetry of long posts, but not from me. Never. Never. Yeah like if you are going to talk about the secondary, how not to mention Gilchrist? Last I heard he's still starting. But mentioning him makes it a bit longer. I do try to edit down to remove the unnecessary, even if to some it does not appear that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blocker Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Mainejet said: Everyone should have known that although Mac made some noble efforts to replace the losses of Snacks and Brick, the success/failure of the 2016 NYJ was riding on the draft. It all boiled down to the draft. Mac selected a part time little midget linebacker and a whole bunch of role players. ZERO starters and he completely ignored the offense. No one should wonder why this season is going to be so hard for Jets fans. We have an incompetent GM and HC that does not know what he's doing. That's a bit harsh. I do sometimes wonder if the Jets will ever again go O in the first round. But the two best skill players on O neither are draft picks, they did bring in Clady, and the relation of the draft to the O from this draft will depend entirely on Hackenberg's progress. From last year I think most here are concerned D Smith could turn out to be a bust, and Amaro from Idzik's last year has so far underwhelmed. It's just a bit much to say with the Hackenberg pick that Macc ignored O in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.