The real orchestrator of this Jets wreck wont come out of hiding

[Ex-Rex]

On 12/18/2016 at 4:43 PM, varjet said:

I thought the title was referring to Woody.

Mac is looking for the wrong players.   But Mac and Bowles need a new boss.  Mac and Bowles have been making each other worse.  Mac takes developmental players, but Woody does not give Bowles the budget or mandate to develop them.   Someone is telling the two of them to keep and play players who are not good, but are either being paid or were drafted.

The Fish Rots from the Head First.

A draft cannot be judged until three years afterward yet all you 'experts' here have already judged his drafts. Mac has brought in more players than Idzik and Tannenbaum COMBINED. The real culprit here is, of course, Woody Johnson who puts his GM and HC at odds with each other by having them each report directly to him and not giving the GM firing powers. Bowles is too laid back for this organization, whose players eat player coaches for dinner. The Jets have historically laid down for player coaches who expect them to behave like professionals. Bowles - much like Rich Kotite - thinks players are self motivating because they get paid. Bowles was a self motivating player and can't see that players DON'T behave like professionals if they feel they can get away with not doing it.  That is what I see every week with the Jets fake effort being rewarded with more playing time. Unacceptable.

[Ex-Rex]

28 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't know what to think of Burris.  He spun the wrong way more than once, but he probably looked better than Marcus Williams who was everyone's pet the past couple of years.  It's hard to complain about him letting guys behind him when you don't know the scheme.  Pretty sure that on the pick there was a safety back there, so presumably he was supposed to trail.  The jury is out, 

It was zero coverage, which means there was NO safety help (not that it would have mattered since Pryor and Miles can't cover anyone) so Burris needed to protect the post which he didn't do. Rookie mistake. Can't throw the guy under the bus just yet. A lot of what has transpired is because - whether Todd Bowles admits it or not - this team has quit on him. Fake effort =  quitting and I see a LOT of FAKE EFFORT.

[Ex-Rex]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Should he have overpaid to get Osweiler?

No. Osweiler has been benched in Houston and they are likely to regret giving him all that money in a move that reeks of panic. Denver moved on without a second thought of matching the contract. 

[dbatesman]

37 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

The only WRs he drafted were Charone Peake and Devin Smith.  Peake seems okay for a 7th, but Smith is looking awfully bust-y,  You can give him credit for bringing in Anderson and Brandon Marshall, but Marshall was paid almost $20M to come here and pretend whatever sh*tty QB we trotted out there was good.  Long term we are looking at Decker and hoping these UDFA's continue to pan out.  Don't get me started on the LBs.  He paid Harris a ton of money and drafted a safety sized guy to replace him.  I know he has a great story, but Mauldin does not appear to be an every down player and while Jenkins was supposedly "NFL ready" I was pining for Calvin Pace when I was watching Carlos Hyde jog around the edge.  These guys still may pan out, but I think it is pretty telling that those two are sitting while Freddy Bishop and Bruce Carter are getting run. 

It may be too early to tell, but early returns are not good.

This is where I'm at too. The preferred method of argumentation for Maccagnan defenders seems to be just listing players he drafted and ignoring the fact that the vast bulk of those players look like wet dogsh*t.

[Beerfish]

7 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

It was zero coverage, which means there was NO safety help (not that it would have mattered since Pryor and Miles can't cover anyone) so Burris needed to protect the post which he didn't do. Rookie mistake. Can't throw the guy under the bus just yet. A lot of what has transpired is because - whether Todd Bowles admits it or not - this team has quit on him. Fake effort =  quitting and I see a LOT of FAKE EFFORT.

The Jets have a different definition of what 'zero coverage' is than most teams.

[Beerfish]

6 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

No. Osweiler has been benched in Houston and they are likely to regret giving him all that money in a move that reeks of panic. Denver moved on without a second thought of matching the contract. 

Hey that is a phoney quote i never said what I was quoted as saying in that post.  Board malfunction it seems.

[Ex-Rex]

6 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Hey that is a phoney quote i never said what I was quoted as saying in that post.  Board malfunction it seems.

Like Charles Barkley who was misquoted in his AUTOBIOGRAPHY.

[#27TheDominator]

18 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

A draft cannot be judged until three years afterward yet all you 'experts' here have already judged his drafts. Mac has brought in more players than Idzik and Tannenbaum COMBINED. The real culprit here is, of course, Woody Johnson who puts his GM and HC at odds with each other by having them each report directly to him and not giving the GM firing powers. Bowles is too laid back for this organization, whose players eat player coaches for dinner. The Jets have historically laid down for player coaches who expect them to behave like professionals. Bowles - much like Rich Kotite - thinks players are self motivating because they get paid. Bowles was a self motivating player and can't see that players DON'T behave like professionals if they feel they can get away with not doing it.  That is what I see every week with the Jets fake effort being rewarded with more playing time. Unacceptable.

I agree with some and disagree with some, but one thing I would like to comment on is the "self-motivating player" bit.  A bunch of people act like Mangini was some kind of genius at the draft, which IMO was obviously not the case.  What he did insist on was "self-motivating players"  All those team captain, clean Marines were a smart way to put a team together and kept the team from turning on an acne faced high school water boy looking coach that loved rah rah bullsh*t.  Once Favre came in (the walking definition of "I am bigger than the team") it was obvious that Mangini and Schottenheimer were out of their depth.

I think that is a big part of why Rex succeeded so much at first.  I think the board underrates him strategically (for any one game) but his let the inmates run the asylum sh*t can succeed when the team is mostly a bunch of hard working team captains who will do the work and make sure the others put in the work too.  After a couple of years, it becomes obvious that guys can get away with sh*t and it reaches a tipping point and then nobody cares.  Next thing you know Santonio Holmes is lateraling the ball to the other team as soon as he stubs his toe.

[peebag]

1 hour ago, CanadaSteve said:

You're hired as a GM for the Jets to rebuild, and you go 10-6, almost make the playoffs, and had many people believing you could have done some damage if you had made the playoffs.  Would YOU have had the stones to come out the following season, not sign the record-breaking Fitzpatrick (I KNOW I KNOW, but....), and handed the keys to Geno Smith? 

 

The issue for me with the Fitztragic signing was that no one...NO ONE...was bidding against us.  You don't just plop down 12mil on a player that no one wanted besides the Jets.  Plus, all you had to do was look at Fitz's history - he was due to suck.

That to me is a strike against Mac....

 

[#27TheDominator]

42 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

It was zero coverage, which means there was NO safety help (not that it would have mattered since Pryor and Miles can't cover anyone) so Burris needed to protect the post which he didn't do. Rookie mistake. Can't throw the guy under the bus just yet. A lot of what has transpired is because - whether Todd Bowles admits it or not - this team has quit on him. Fake effort =  quitting and I see a LOT of FAKE EFFORT.

I just watched the replay.  I don't think it was zero coverage.  I am pretty sure it was 1 deep.  Middleton was playing at least 15 yards off the LOS, but got there way late.  It is hard to tell because it isn't the all-22 film and Middleton was not even on the screen.  He may have expected help as Revis was playing off and Burris was up, also, one of the guys set to rush (couldn't read the number, possibly Lee) sprints to the D right to help zone with Revis and Williams.  They blow so many coverages it is hard to tell.

http://www.newyorkjets.com/news/article-7/Full-Highlights-Jets-Dolphins/aa0647a2-ce0b-44da-8bb6-d851db51b5c3

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

All new GMs inherit crappy teams. That's why they were hired in the first place. So meh to that, since he at least inherited a crappy team with massive flexibility and a fan base that had low expectations for the 2015 season.

Here's a thought exercise.  After two seasons, lets look at the entire roster.  Make your "I'm glad he'll be a Jet in 2017" list.

Mine:

Williams, Enunwa, Powell, Anderson

After two years, I'm happy about four guys, only two of which came from the current regime.

[Beerfish]

59 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

Like Charles Barkley who was misquoted in his AUTOBIOGRAPHY.

I still have zero clue how you quoted me saying 'Should he have overpaid for Oswieler?' when I never have said that certainly not recently and there is nothing I can find in this thread about that. 

[southparkcpa]

10 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

I still have zero clue how you quoted me saying 'Should he have overpaid for Oswieler?' when I never have said that certainly not recently and there is nothing I can find in this thread about that. 

I heard you say it.....  stop back peddling.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, bostonmajet said:

Easy to say all of this, but there is no LT available in the early 1 worth drafting (at least not now) - he can only draft what is there. The same goes for QB; I get that a lot of people don't like the Hack pick, but it is not like he passed on Geoff, Winston, etc. He passed on Lynch - maybe that was a mistake, but clearly he didn't rate him that high. And for all of those complaining that you don't draft a QB in the second and not sit him for a year, look what is happening in Denver with their 1st - but Mac sucks.

Yes there is still a hole at QB, CB1, CB2 but places he drafted now don't have the hole. Get it? He picked all of those WRs and LBs to fill other holes.

As far as striking out on FAs they all had 2 year deals (basically) and now these overpriced guys will be gone. You make is sound like 2009 Revis, A. Rodgers and Dummerville were available for reasonable contracts and he past on them. You can only draft who is available, you can only sign who is available.

Should he have overpaid to get Osweiler? You guys sound like quality, long-term FA are just sitting around waiting for a reasonable contract. Most of these FAs are overpriced or their own teams would have signed them (yes there are exceptions). He made one long term quality signing in Carpenter, the rest of his FAs were 2 year rentals. I have a news flash for you, this year he is going to have to sign more 2 year rentals. And he will keep having to do that until he can build a team with the draft; with his 7 picks. Hopefully along the line we will sign a real value long term FA here or there, but this is the reality.

This team had no depth and no QB (really) and an aging OL when Idzik took over. It was a 3-4 year rebuild then. After 2 years of crap, do you think things got better or worse? As he tried to rebuild, the OL got even older. You can't replace everyone at once. We are in the 2nd year of the rebuild and it is painful. You want to point out where he could have done better, whatever. But to say stuff like the team still has holes - shocker.

Guess what after years of trying to control carbon emissions, we still have a global warmer threat; what? didn't fix this in 2 years? crazy (this is just my snide sarcasm - not meant to start a political fight  )

1. There's a dramatic difference between 2nd string (Lynch) and 4th string (Hackenberg). Particularly when everyone knew it would take a 1st round pick to get Lynch in the first place, and few advocated burning higher than a 4th-6th rounder for Hackenberg. 

2. Pointing out poor moves others made, like Osweiller, does not therefore mean he's absolved from the responsibility of outperforming such moves. 

3. Citing this year's draft for LT or QB or whatever is half my point: this is year 3 not year 1. He shouldn't first be looking now. Those, like a true/every-down outside pass rushing LB, are the important positions. Those are the hard positions to fill. 

4. Perhaps he should sign more than just 1-2 year rentals if he's going to fork over so much for these FAs and veterans through trade. 

He doesn't get to have minions of excuse-makers for failing to fill those hard-to-fill positions while he's used first round picks on a DE/DT when he already had two (and then keep all 3 of them for 2 years and counting), and a luxury pick for a slightly-built ILB/OLB 'tweener. Round 1 is for core players if you're GMing a team with so many holes at core positions. If he's only got a few less-crucial holes to fill, then he can go with a luxury pick like a Darron Lee in round 1. 

It isn't that he hasn't filled every hole imaginable, no matter how effective you believe this silly sarcasm to be. It's that he's painted around the edges and the vacant, hardest positions to fill when he got here are still vacant entering year 3. Every single one of them: QB, Pass rushing LB, LT, CB1, CB2. All 5 were needs in 2015 and all are still needs entering 2017. 

[bostonmajet]

3 hours ago, Beerfish said:

It's his job to be a LOT better than a bean counter GM.  The Jury is out on a lot of picks and he is being imo badly hamstrung by a craptacular coaching staff.  In the end though whether it is fair or not his QB picks will sink him or float him.  It is his job to find those gem players like a Prescott and he may not have known it at he time but he has taken a hug risk with the Hack pick because that one will be stapled to his forehead if he does not find a franchise Qb elsewhere.

I agree, I am not sold yet on Mac. I just think you should compare him to what a competent GM would do, not the Wizard of Oz. And you should have reasonable expectations on what could have been done - if you pick 4 and there is no QB, there is no QB.

I am not sure that Hack will be a make or break. It certainly should be evaluated 'heavily' in any discussion about how good he is. But, to be fair, to ding him for the pick and calling hack a bust for sitting for a year is about 3 years premature for evaluating Hack.

Next year we should have more information to evaluate Mac; it would be his 3rd off season and at least his first draft would have 3 years behind it. I think that we won't know if he is good for quite a while. It is obvious, however, when a GM is bad (it didn't even take Idzik 2 years for that).

I am hopeful, but not convinced.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, Ex-Rex said:

A draft cannot be judged until three years afterward yet all you 'experts' here have already judged his drafts. Mac has brought in more players than Idzik and Tannenbaum COMBINED. The real culprit here is, of course, Woody Johnson who puts his GM and HC at odds with each other by having them each report directly to him and not giving the GM firing powers. Bowles is too laid back for this organization, whose players eat player coaches for dinner. The Jets have historically laid down for player coaches who expect them to behave like professionals. Bowles - much like Rich Kotite - thinks players are self motivating because they get paid. Bowles was a self motivating player and can't see that players DON'T behave like professionals if they feel they can get away with not doing it.  That is what I see every week with the Jets fake effort being rewarded with more playing time. Unacceptable.

Just as you are pre-judging those you feel are off to a good start. So it's:

1. Seem to be off to a good start = player can be judged as a great pick

2. Seem to be off to a bad/slow start = player can't be judged

Everyone does it, but I'm just saying it's a convenient position to take. 

Also it is a demonstrably false statement that MM's brought in more players than Idzik and Tannenbaum combined. That's not even close to being almost accurate. 

[Beerfish]

1 hour ago, southparkcpa said:

I heard you say it.....  stop back peddling.

Revis needs to see this line.

[Beerfish]

4 hours ago, Beerfish said:

It's his job to be a LOT better than a bean counter GM.  The Jury is out on a lot of picks and he is being imo badly hamstrung by a craptacular coaching staff.  In the end though whether it is fair or not his QB picks will sink him or float him.  It is his job to find those gem players like a Prescott and he may not have known it at he time but he has taken a huge risk with the Hack pick because that one will be stapled to his forehead if he does not find a franchise Qb elsewhere.

 

[bostonmajet]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

1. There's a dramatic difference between 2nd string (Lynch) and 4th string (Hackenberg). Particularly when everyone knew it would take a 1st round pick to get Lynch in the first place, and few advocated burning higher than a 4th-6th rounder for Hackenberg. 

2. Pointing out poor moves others made, like Osweiller, does not therefore mean he's absolved from the responsibility of outperforming such moves. 

3. Citing this year's draft for LT or QB or whatever is half my point: this is year 3 not year 1. He shouldn't first be looking now. Those, like a true/every-down outside pass rushing LB, are the important positions. Those are the hard positions to fill. 

4. Perhaps he should sign more than just 1-2 year rentals if he's going to fork over so much for these FAs and veterans through trade. 

He doesn't get to have minions of excuse-makers for failing to fill those hard-to-fill positions while he's used first round picks on a DE/DT when he already had two (and then keep all 3 of them for 2 years and counting), and a luxury pick for a slightly-built ILB/OLB 'tweener. Round 1 is for core players if you're GMing a team with so many holes at core positions. If he's only got a few less-crucial holes to fill, then he can go with a luxury pick like a Darron Lee in round 1. 

It isn't that he hasn't filled every hole imaginable, no matter how effective you believe this silly sarcasm to be. It's that he's painted around the edges and the vacant, hardest positions to fill when he got here are still vacant entering year 3. Every single one of them: QB, Pass rushing LB, LT, CB1, CB2. All 5 were needs in 2015 and all are still needs entering 2017. 

1. Hack was drafted to sit a year; you may not agree with it, but you can't call him a bust when the plan all along was to sit him; as far as 2nd string vs. 4th string if you plan to sit him for a year, what difference does it make? he is currently 3rd string (in 2nd round vs. 2nd string from 1st round), and who knows what string Lynch would have been if Sanchez didn't suck so much. Either way, who the f' cares what string he is if he isn't going to play - it is like drafting a guy that is on IR, what string is he?

2. My point wasn't to say that he didn't do something stupid, but that other teams do; you can't sign quality FA for reasonable contracts IF other team stupidly overpay. I don't know if Mac liked Osweiler or not, but he certainly wouldn't pay that for him. It is a supply and demand thing; hard to buy at a good price on scarce resources that others overpay for...

3. Mac clearly wanted a QB (as he drafted them) in year 1 and 2; and he clearly wanted OL in year two as he tried to trade up to get one. My point is that we don't know WHEN Mac wanted to draft for QB/LT; yes the harder ones to fill are often filled last and on a team with a billion holes to fill, you can afford to fill them in an order they fall to you.

4. Again, supply and demand. If you think you are going to find quality CBs and QBs AND be able to sign them while having to fill 10 spots it isn't going to happen. If you have to fill 2 spots in FA you can spend all your money on those 2, when you need 6 it gets a little harder.

LEO was BPA and probably best player in draft - people say he shouldn't take credit for drafting him and then give him CRAP for drafting him.

My silly sarcasm doesn't change the fact that this team needed to fill a lot of hole; more if you include that some of the holes were filled with old vets (requiring more holes like Pace and Brick). It was a daunting task and it is going to take more than 2 years; it will probably take at least 2 more. Yes we still need QB, LB, LT, CB, but what we don't need is WRs; we now need at least one less ILB and OLB. We also don't need a punter, etc. Sure when you need 20 players and you fill 10 and 3 more need to be filled, you still need to fill 13 players. Had he drafter CB1 and CB2 and LT, instead he would then need to have filled which ever spot he hadn't previously filled.

I don't know if you remember, but during the draft I said that OL was an area of need and you JUMPED all over me. Not really fair to list LT as a need. Just saying...

[bostonmajet]

41 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Just as you are pre-judging those you feel are off to a good start. So it's:

1. Seem to be off to a good start = player can be judged as a great pick

2. Seem to be off to a bad/slow start = player can't be judged

Everyone does it, but I'm just saying it's a convenient position to take. 

Also it is a demonstrably false statement that MM's brought in more players than Idzik and Tannenbaum combined. That's not even close to being almost accurate. 

I would agree with this. If a player starts off strong doesn't make him a good player; just like if a player starts off poorly, it doesn't make him bad. It is hard to judge a player in his 1 or 2 year, and a GM until the 3-4th.

IMO you cannot know if the GM is good for 3-4 years, BUT you can see if the GM sucks way before that. When in your second draft you pick 12 and only 7 make the team and the previous year, not only did some not make the team, but they aren't in the league anymore, you know the drafts sucked (especially on a team with holes all over - it should be easier to make the team). So, while you can't determine early on if a GM is going to be good/great, you can certainly tell if he is going to suck...

For example, Sheldon started hot but has shown his flaws; Leo didn't start as hot, but is now showing signs of greatness (still too early); that being said, it didn't take long for Gholston to show as a bust.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, bostonmajet said:

1. Hack was drafted to sit a year; you may not agree with it, but you can't call him a bust when the plan all along was to sit him; as far as 2nd string vs. 4th string if you plan to sit him for a year, what difference does it make? he is currently 3rd string (in 2nd round vs. 2nd string from 1st round), and who knows what string Lynch would have been if Sanchez didn't suck so much. Either way, who the f' cares what string he is if he isn't going to play - it is like drafting a guy that is on IR, what string is he?

2. My point wasn't to say that he didn't do something stupid, but that other teams do; you can't sign quality FA for reasonable contracts IF other team stupidly overpay. I don't know if Mac liked Osweiler or not, but he certainly wouldn't pay that for him. It is a supply and demand thing; hard to buy at a good price on scarce resources that others overpay for...

3. Mac clearly wanted a QB (as he drafted them) in year 1 and 2; and he clearly wanted OL in year two as he tried to trade up to get one. My point is that we don't know WHEN Mac wanted to draft for QB/LT; yes the harder ones to fill are often filled last and on a team with a billion holes to fill, you can afford to fill them in an order they fall to you.

4. Again, supply and demand. If you think you are going to find quality CBs and QBs AND be able to sign them while having to fill 10 spots it isn't going to happen. If you have to fill 2 spots in FA you can spend all your money on those 2, when you need 6 it gets a little harder.

LEO was BPA and probably best player in draft - people say he shouldn't take credit for drafting him and then give him CRAP for drafting him.

My silly sarcasm doesn't change the fact that this team needed to fill a lot of hole; more if you include that some of the holes were filled with old vets (requiring more holes like Pace and Brick). It was a daunting task and it is going to take more than 2 years; it will probably take at least 2 more. Yes we still need QB, LB, LT, CB, but what we don't need is WRs; we now need at least one less ILB and OLB. We also don't need a punter, etc. Sure when you need 20 players and you fill 10 and 3 more need to be filled, you still need to fill 13 players. Had he drafter CB1 and CB2 and LT, instead he would then need to have filled which ever spot he hadn't previously filled.

I don't know if you remember, but during the draft I said that OL was an area of need and you JUMPED all over me. Not really fair to list LT as a need. Just saying...

1. I didn't call him a bust. I did suggest he was overdrafted. He's only 3rd string due to injury. He is 4th string in the sense that under no circumstances would they let him see the field. If Petty got knocked out for the season, from the team's posturing, they'd pick up someone else to mop up the season rather than let Hackenberg see the field.

Still, If he looked good out of the gate, is there any doubt you'd be calling him a good pick already?

2. He should be signing good players to those high-priced contracts. He's signed 30-somethings to contracts so lucrative that the team won't put a young guy onto the field except in case of injury. Hardly matters, in a sense, because his draft picks don't look field-worthy anyhow.

3. If Mac wanted a QB that badly in year 1 and year 2 the opportunity was there both years: Mariota in year 1 (he had enough ammunition to get him) and Prescott in year 2. He also had access to OLmen prior to round 5 in both years. This woe is Maccagnan routine is weak tea.

4. Nope. He had enough money to sign many FAs because they don't get expensive until 2nd-3rd seasons, after which he could have been rid of some inherited contracts that he may not have wanted (e.g. Brick). Plus it hasn't stopped him anyway since, despite inheriting such a cushy cap situation, he's been borrowing from the following season twice in two years now.

5. Leo may have been the BPA and best player in the draft, but a smart GM would first realize how much more important a QB is than a DE, and even if he took the DT he should have rid himself of at least 1 of the other 2 while they still had trade value. Instead he kept all 3, meaning 1 of them is always playing out of position. FFS they were even lining up Sheldon Richardson at ILB this year.

Your silly sarcasm makes light of the terrible judgment he's shown, as though the only options are total failure or superbowl wins. In reality, we should be seeing improvement rather than wallowing at the bottom as he enters year 3. 

Your complaint of "if he'd filled the CB position in the draft" is silly since it's not like he's done nothing but plug up holes with the other draft picks. Williams didn't fill a hole. Smith didn't fill a hole. Hackenberg didn't fill a hole. Mauldin didn't fill a hole. Lee only kind of fills a hole, since he only looks kind of good. 

It is 100% fair to list LT as a need since the only one on the roster for 2017 is Ryan Clady at $10m. I didn't say it wasn't a need; rather that it wasn't the need that it used to be and further that it isn't half the need as QB. Also LT is not OL. If we're talking guard in round 1, then yes I think it's foolish for a team in need of a QB. LT I think is a bit overvalued, but it's undeniable how much these guys get as FAs so it's an important cap move to get one. He's done none of that, though. He kept a horrible Ferguson for big money, then traded a draft pick for a 1 yr rental of Ryan Clady. He had to know he'd be lucky to get more than a year out of either one and has steered clear of the position in the draft 2x out of 2. But hey, we got an ILB, a 4th string QB, and a (thus far) bust of a deep threat WR.

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, gEYno said:

Here's a thought exercise.  After two seasons, lets look at the entire roster.  Make your "I'm glad he'll be a Jet in 2017" list.

Mine:

Williams, Enunwa, Powell, Anderson

After two years, I'm happy about four guys, only two of which came from the current regime.

Mauldin, McClendon, Simon, Darron Lee, Jalin Marshall, Jordan Jenkins, Carpenter, Winters, Lachlan Edwards, Peake, Brent Qvale, Rontez Miles... all good players, in the context of where they are at in experience level and role played.

I get your point, I just think you may be embellishing upon it for dramatic effect.

[bostonmajet]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

1. I didn't call him a bust. I did suggest he was overdrafted. He's only 3rd string due to injury. He is 4th string in the sense that under no circumstances would they let him see the field. If Petty got knocked out for the season, from the team's posturing, they'd pick up someone else to mop up the season rather than let Hackenberg see the field.

Still, If he looked good out of the gate, is there any doubt you'd be calling him a good pick already?

2. He should be signing good players to those high-priced contracts. He's signed 30-somethings to contracts so lucrative that the team won't put a young guy onto the field except in case of injury. Hardly matters, in a sense, because his draft picks don't look field-worthy anyhow.

3. If Mac wanted a QB that badly in year 1 and year 2 the opportunity was there both years: Mariota in year 1 (he had enough ammunition to get him) and Prescott in year 2. He also had access to OLmen prior to round 5 in both years. This woe is Maccagnan routine is weak tea.

4. Nope. He had enough money to sign many FAs because they don't get expensive until 2nd-3rd seasons, after which he could have been rid of some inherited contracts that he may not have wanted (e.g. Brick). Plus it hasn't stopped him anyway since, despite inheriting such a cushy cap situation, he's been borrowing from the following season twice in two years now.

5. Leo may have been the BPA and best player in the draft, but a smart GM would first realize how much more important a QB is than a DE, and even if he took the DT he should have rid himself of at least 1 of the other 2 while they still had trade value. Instead he kept all 3, meaning 1 of them is always playing out of position. FFS they were even lining up Sheldon Richardson at ILB this year.

Your silly sarcasm makes light of the terrible judgment he's shown, as though the only options are total failure or superbowl wins. In reality, we should be seeing improvement rather than wallowing at the bottom as he enters year 3. 

Your complaint of "if he'd filled the CB position in the draft" is silly since it's not like he's done nothing but plug up holes with the other draft picks. Williams didn't fill a hole. Smith didn't fill a hole. Hackenberg didn't fill a hole. Mauldin didn't fill a hole. Lee only kind of fills a hole, since he only looks kind of good. 

It is 100% fair to list LT as a need since the only one on the roster for 2017 is Ryan Clady at $10m. I didn't say it wasn't a need; rather that it wasn't the need that it used to be and further that it isn't half the need as QB. Also LT is not OL. If we're talking guard in round 1, then yes I think it's foolish for a team in need of a QB. LT I think is a bit overvalued, but it's undeniable how much these guys get as FAs so it's an important cap move to get one. He's done none of that, though. He kept a horrible Ferguson for big money, then traded a draft pick for a 1 yr rental of Ryan Clady. He had to know he'd be lucky to get more than a year out of either one and has steered clear of the position in the draft 2x out of 2. But hey, we got an ILB, a 4th string QB, and a (thus far) bust of a deep threat WR.

There was no QB to draft - we tried to move up and it wasn't worth it. At this point Geno would have been gone without getting hurt - if you remember, Bowles said that had a plan for the 4 QBs; Tennesee said they wanted Marriotta and they weren't going to trade the pick - you CANT MAKE A TEAM TRADE with you. And, at what cost? How did RGIII work out for the skins - 3 picks and he failed in part due to CS and a lack of talent (can't imagine why). Smith filled a hole as we were bereft of talent at WR he may be a bust be he was a need; same is true for Mauldin (but I guess we should have drafted the next Luck in the 4th round). You complain that we need a QB and then say Hack doesn't fill a hole, really? QBs don't grow on trees, if you can't pick #1 in a draft with a true franchise Qb you have to look through the weeds.

As far as my silly sarcasm goes - have you every read one of your posts? and I NEVER said the only choice was failure and SB. IMO we are seeing improvement in talent but with parts falling off as we go and our CS it isn't translating into wins.

And, you are remembering WRONG our conversation - look it up; you emphatically told me in you non-sarcastic way that OL was not a need. Not only was it a need this year, it was last year as well.

As I type this I remember the previous thread with you; respond if you like, but i think I am done arguing with you.

[Sperm Edwards]

12 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

I would agree with this. If a player starts off strong doesn't make him a good player; just like if a player starts off poorly, it doesn't make him bad. It is hard to judge a player in his 1 or 2 year, and a GM until the 3-4th.

IMO you cannot know if the GM is good for 3-4 years, BUT you can see if the GM sucks way before that. When in your second draft you pick 12 and only 7 make the team and the previous year, not only did some not make the team, but they aren't in the league anymore, you know the drafts sucked (especially on a team with holes all over - it should be easier to make the team). So, while you can't determine early on if a GM is going to be good/great, you can certainly tell if he is going to suck...

For example, Sheldon started hot but has shown his flaws; Leo didn't start as hot, but is now showing signs of greatness (still too early); that being said, it didn't take long for Gholston to show as a bust.

No doubt. I'm just saying you don't seem to be saying (for example) Charone Peake looks like he'll be a good pick so far. To some, MM gets credit for these players as though they're already successful picks. Then the ones that look terrible so far are also deemed to be off-limits for the 'sucks' tag.

Sheldon Richardson is a great example. Even with all his obvious knucklehead attributes, I also wonder how much better he may look if he wasn't bumped to odd-man-out as a direct result of drafting Williams and failing to trade Mo. Would he still look like he's regressed if he was able to stay at his position? I don't know, but I don't believe so. You can't arbitrarily change the ingredients and suggest you'd still end up the same cake. 

And again, comparisons to Idzik are irrelevant. The whole idea is he's supposed to be this dramatic upgrade. He isn't, other than failing to make an ass of himself with a microphone in his face. The 12 picks are a bit meh, since most of them were low picks before they were allowed to trade compensatory picks. He wasn't a good drafter. Out of the draft, he did get Sheldon (who looked just fine until he was moved out of position); he took 3 OLmen with the hope 1 would pan out as starter and the strategy worked. Ditto WR, and it was a similar success even if it was only the late-rounder that panned out. He traded a 4th rounder for Ivory, which was well worth it. I don't like the Pryor pick not merely because he isn't so great (he is at least a legit starter) but because I view safety - a cheap FA position - as poor value for a round 1 pick. Particularly if he can't really cover like draft people said he could do. And this was from someone comparatively bad at assessing college talent, as opposed to Maccagnan the career scout.

[bostonmajet]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No doubt. I'm just saying you don't seem to be saying (for example) Charone Peake looks like he'll be a good pick so far. To some, MM gets credit for these players as though they're already successful picks. Then the ones that look terrible so far are also deemed to be off-limits for the 'sucks' tag.

Sheldon Richardson is a great example. Even with all his obvious knucklehead attributes, I also wonder how much better he may look if he wasn't bumped to odd-man-out as a direct result of drafting Williams and failing to trade Mo. Would he still look like he's regressed if he was able to stay at his position? I don't know, but I don't believe so. You can't arbitrarily change the ingredients and suggest you'd still end up the same cake. 

And again, comparisons to Idzik are irrelevant. The whole idea is he's supposed to be this dramatic upgrade. He isn't, other than failing to make an ass of himself with a microphone in his face. The 12 picks are a bit meh, since most of them were low picks before they were allowed to trade compensatory picks. He wasn't a good drafter. Out of the draft, he did get Sheldon (who looked just fine until he was moved out of position); he took 3 OLmen with the hope 1 would pan out as starter and the strategy worked. Ditto WR, and it was a similar success even if it was only the late-rounder that panned out. He traded a 4th rounder for Ivory, which was well worth it. I don't like the Pryor pick not merely because he isn't so great (he is at least a legit starter) but because I view safety - a cheap FA position - as poor value for a round 1 pick. Particularly if he can't really cover like draft people said he could do. And this was from someone comparatively bad at assessing college talent, as opposed to Maccagnan the career scout.

My only reason for bringing up Idzik and the Ghost is because it shows that it may take years to know if a player or a GM is good, sometimes it doesn't take long to realize they are a bust.

I am not convinced Mac is the guy; just not convinced he isn't.

[Sperm Edwards]

5 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

There was no QB to draft - we tried to move up and it wasn't worth it. At this point Geno would have been gone without getting hurt - if you remember, Bowles said that had a plan for the 4 QBs; Tennesee said they wanted Marriotta and they weren't going to trade the pick - you CANT MAKE A TEAM TRADE with you. And, at what cost? How did RGIII work out for the skins - 3 picks and he failed in part due to CS and a lack of talent (can't imagine why). Smith filled a hole as we were bereft of talent at WR he may be a bust be he was a need; same is true for Mauldin (but I guess we should have drafted the next Luck in the 4th round). You complain that we need a QB and then say Hack doesn't fill a hole, really? QBs don't grow on trees, if you can't pick #1 in a draft with a true franchise Qb you have to look through the weeds.

As far as my silly sarcasm goes - have you every read one of your posts? and I NEVER said the only choice was failure and SB. IMO we are seeing improvement in talent but with parts falling off as we go and our CS it isn't translating into wins.

And, you are remembering WRONG our conversation - look it up; you emphatically told me in you non-sarcastic way that OL was not a need. Not only was it a need this year, it was last year as well.

As I type this I remember the previous thread with you; respond if you like, but i think I am done arguing with you.

It was worth it to trade up in '15. That is the point. If Tennessee wanted our #6 overall pick and our 2nd round pick and our 1st & 2nd round pick the following year, just to move up 4 slots - and it wouldn't have cost that much - it was worth it. Look what we've got in return: a DE who (no matter how much I like him) wasn't needed, a WR who's barely played, an ILB/OLB who's just ok, and a 4th string QB on a team with 3 terrible QBs ahead of him.

It was worth it even if it cost all that, and there's no evidence to suggest it would have.

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, gEYno said:

Here's a thought exercise.  After two seasons, lets look at the entire roster.  Make your "I'm glad he'll be a Jet in 2017" list.

Mine:

Williams, Enunwa, Powell, Anderson

After two years, I'm happy about four guys, only two of which came from the current regime.

Bah! You can't judge all the others. It hasn't been 3 years yet! Let me help you out:

You can judge those MM picks you like, but can't judge those you don't like.

Heads I win, tails you lose.

[#27TheDominator]

I am happy Powell is here, but I don't know if I am that happy to have him at a top 20 RB price. At least he is not the type to dog it after getting paid and is the kind of guy I am happy to see paid.

[NoBowles]

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Bah! You can't judge all the others. It hasn't been 3 years yet! Let me help you out:

You can judge those MM picks you like, but can't judge those you don't like.

Heads I win, tails you lose.

Do you really not see th logic? A player who plays well early on will almost definitely continue to play well... Some players take longer to develop than others. Its hard to say bust after a year and half in most cases, or even bad pick.  I think next year we can really start criticizing his first draft if everyone sucks. But if Smith turns into a stud next year, his whole first draft changes in context. Come on, your better than this.

[ZachEY]

33 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Mauldin, McClendon, Simon, Darron Lee, Jalin Marshall, Jordan Jenkins, Carpenter, Winters, Lachlan Edwards, Peake, Brent Qvale, Rontez Miles... all good players, in the context of where they are at in experience level and role played.

I get your point, I just think you may be embellishing upon it for dramatic effect.

Jalin Marshall fumbled twice in the 33 minutes between you posting this, and me reading this.

[Sperm Edwards]

40 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

Do you really not see th logic? A player who plays well early on will almost definitely continue to play well... Some players take longer to develop than others. Its hard to say bust after a year and half in most cases, or even bad pick.  I think next year we can really start criticizing his first draft if everyone sucks. But if Smith turns into a stud next year, his whole first draft changes in context. Come on, your better than this.

Well, it's a rationale rather than actual logic. It allows people to credit him for players who will turn out to be busts, simply by outlawing the bust label until 3 years has passed. 

Smith will not turn out to be a stud next year. Neither will Mauldin. Neither will Hackenberg. Most likely neither will Lee (though I think/hope he'll probably be at least a solid starter, if even a replaceable one).

[Larz]

7 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

So far they have improved the LT situation just by virtue of getting late-career Brick off the OL and off the books. Even Brick knew he wasn't good anymore, and more or less said as much in his goodbye speech. 

Just because he seems like a truly good guy (not unlike Bowles) doesn't therefore mean he was doing a good job on the Jets. Brick was an elite pass-blocker once. His last few seasons - the last 2 in particular - were hard to watch.

you said younger better and cheaper

[dbatesman]

1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

Mauldin, McClendon, Simon, Darron Lee, Jalin Marshall, Jordan Jenkins, Carpenter, Winters, Lachlan Edwards, Peake, Brent Qvale, Rontez Miles... all good players, in the context of where they are at in experience level and role played.

I get your point, I just think you may be embellishing upon it for dramatic effect.

You're happy that Jalin Marshall and Lachlan Edwards will be Jets in 2017 and he's the one embellishing?

[#27TheDominator]

13 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

You're happy that Jalin Marshall and Lachlan Edwards will be Jets in 2017 and he's the one embellishing?

Jalin Marshall is actually a guy that I am looking forward to seeing next preseason.  He has shown some real flashes.  The fumbling is an abomination, but he seems like the kind of guy that can do some things in a limited fashion.  Use him like Harvin, Austin, Taylor Gabriel or Tyreek Hill.  Just don't over use him.  Trouble is that the fumbling has happened on punt returns which was supposed to be the finished aspect of his game.  

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, gEYno said:

Jalin Marshall fumbled twice in the 33 minutes between you posting this, and me reading this.

The context is Jets I will be glad are here next year. Jalin has clear ability, he's a rookie, fumbling can be fixed. I view him as a Edelman type converting from QB or whatever, not going to be perfect right away. He clearly understands his assignments. He can contribute positively.