Congrats Drew Brees

[CTM]

4 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Show me where I said anything about Brady not being in consideration for GOAT? I'll wait.

Sorry you got all in your feelings because you felt that your boo brady was being disrespected, but that's simply not the case. Just as it wasn't the case the only other time you and I have ever had an exchange, where you thought I was dissing brady and then calmed down and reread my posts and realized that, oh wait, greenwich actually wasn't dissing brady.

Randy Moss is the most gifted receiver ever, just as Gronk is the most gifted TE ever. That was my entire point. As you pointed out, Brees doesn't get consideration for GOAT, and my initial post was entirely explaining that it's largely because he has never played with anyone of Moss/Gronk's caliber, and didn't have Belichick/Ernie Adams tilting games for him to get him more wins and postseason success.

It's not difficult to understand as long as you stop consistently getting so uppity about everything you perceive as a slight to brady.

You, out of nowhere, attempted to compare Brees favorable to Brady by highlighting areas you feel Brady has had an advantage while ignoring or discounting the advantageous Brees has had. I called you on it.  You did it again in the bolded. The reality that you don't want to accept is that Brady is just better. Below is Brees dome vs outdoor splits. As you can see, had he played just outdoors (not even in Northeast), he'd not be collecting any lifetime achievement awards

The only person who seems worked up here is you. The person who brought up Brady in a Brees thread is you.  Perhaps you are the one who is obsessed. I clearly have no emotional attachment to Brady's legacy either overall or specifically your opinion of it. I was drawn in by one-sidedness  of your argument, just like last time.

[chirorob]

12 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Guy is unbelievable as a person, as a football player for what he’s overcome, as a citizen, and as a father. That moment with his kids after breaking the record? Pure gold. He deserves every single accolade and he’s so freaking good, and he’s never had a Randy Moss or Gronk to throw to.

Unfortunately, as great as Payton is as an aggressive playcaller, he leaves much to be desired on his defenses - and that plays a big part in many losing seasons and little postseason success aside from ‘09. Belichick/Ernie Adams skew every game in their favor so much before the game is even played. It’s why brady - even with his reputation (only QB in NFL history to be suspended for cheating) gets blown all day every day by everyone, while Brees barely gets consideration for GOAT. 

For my money, keep all else equal, I’m taking Brees before brady every time.

Payton also had to take a year off and lost his D Co, which hurt their run when that team was in it's prime.

[greenwichjetfan]

1 minute ago, nycdan said:

Let's start with 2011.

5,476 yards.  46 TDs.  14 INTs.  71.2% completion %.  13-3 record.  Rodgers won the MVP with 800 fewer yards, but a 45/6 TD/INT ratio.  Not sure how you pick between them.

Compare his playoff numbers to Brady if you can get the press of Brady's knob long enough...

Brady: 276 Y/G,  62.8 Comp %, 4.8 TD %, 2.1 INT %, 4.3 Sack %, Rating 90.9

Brees: 324 Y/G, 65.9 Comp %, 5.4 TD %, 1.7 INT %, 3.9 Sack %, Rating 100.7

Brees had better numbers in every single category on a per-game basis.  And you can easily argue that Brees had less to work with than Brady in terms of skill position players.  Oh, and there's the no-cheating and no-steroids thing but maybe that's nit-picking.

It doesn't really matter in the end, because 15 years from now, Aaron Rodgers will get his gold jacket and be the undisputed GOAT.  Brady will have the rings, but Rodgers, statistically, is so far better than everyone else it's not even a race.  It's a beat-down.  

Great post. Completely agree with Brees v brady and also fully agree with Rodgers v the field. In terms of efficiency, impact on a game, and individual talent: no one better than Rodgers. The only issue I see for him when it comes to volume stats such as career yards and tds is that I don't think Rodgers will have the long and healthy careers that Brees and brady are enjoying.

[greenwichjetfan]

9 minutes ago, CTM said:

You, out of nowhere, attempted to compare Brees favorable to Brady by highlighting areas you feel Brady has had an advantage while ignoring or discounting the advantageous Brees has had. I called you on it.  You did it again in the bolded. The reality that you don't want to accept is that Brady is just better. Below is Brees dome vs outdoor splits. As you can see, had he played just outdoors (not even in Northeast), he'd not be collecting any lifetime achievement awards

The only person who seems worked up here is you. The person who brought up Brady in a Brees thread is you.  Perhaps you are the one who is obsessed. I clearly have no emotional attachment to Brady's legacy either overall or specifically your opinion of it. I was drawn in by one-sidedness  of your argument, just like last time.

On a night where Brees breaks the all time record, and in a thread dedicated to Brees greatness, I came out of nowhere to talk about his legacy when compared to the popular choice for GOAT? Bro.

I'm biased. I'm on a Jets forum as a Jets fan who hates brady. I'll admit that. I also stay as objective as possible and go out of my way to credit brady for his career. In both threads that you felt disrespected on brady's behalf, not once did I discredit brady. Go back and check. So now, what's your reason for feeling the need to police anything brady related on these forums, and taking every opportunity to fight the good fight in defense of Brady's honor? Going as far as to state that the talent Brees was working with is the same as what Brady was working with.

Thank you for those splits. Please provide the splits detailing brady with and without belichick and lets see how many lifetime achievement awards brady's collecting.

 

[nycdan]

13 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

If Brady didn’t play for the Patriots the only number you’d be concerned with is five. Don’t tell us about stats pls.

Don't tell us about stats?  That's a pretty bold position.  Then I guess Charles Haley is the greatest defensive player in NFL history. 

This isn't tennis or golf.  Brady is an all-time great.  Rodgers is simply a better passer.  Better than Brady, Manning, Brees and all the rest.  All day every day including playoffs.  He didn't have the team, the coaches, or the cheating to get the rings.  

[CTM]

14 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Let's start with 2011.

5,476 yards.  46 TDs.  14 INTs.  71.2% completion %.  13-3 record.  Rodgers won the MVP with 800 fewer yards, but a 45/6 TD/INT ratio.  Not sure how you pick between them.

Compare his playoff numbers to Brady if you can get the press of Brady's knob long enough...

Brady: 276 Y/G,  62.8 Comp %, 4.8 TD %, 2.1 INT %, 4.3 Sack %, Rating 90.9

Brees: 324 Y/G, 65.9 Comp %, 5.4 TD %, 1.7 INT %, 3.9 Sack %, Rating 100.7

Brees had better numbers in every single category on a per-game basis.  And you can easily argue that Brees had less to work with than Brady in terms of skill position players.  Oh, and there's the no-cheating and no-steroids thing but maybe that's nit-picking.

It doesn't really matter in the end, because 12 or so years from now, Aaron Rodgers will get his gold jacket and be the undisputed GOAT.  Brady will have the rings, but Rodgers, statistically, is so far better than everyone else it's not even a race.  It's a beat-down.  

Oh look, another one..

Hey remember that 1 time Brees played in in the snow in a conference championship in 2007 and lost 39-14?

Or.. the 1 time he played in the rain in the divisional round in 2014 and lost 23-15?

The vast majority of Brees's postseason games and basically all of his successes have happened in the confines of stat inflating domes. A quick glance shows the only playoff game I see Brees winning in the elements was 2014 against the Eagles, but he threw 1 TD and 2 INT's that game which again undermines the statistical comparison you are making.

It's apples to oranges.

 

[nycdan]

2 minutes ago, CTM said:

Oh look, another one..

Hey remember that 1 time Brees played in in the snow in a conference championship in 2007 and lost 39-14?

Or.. the 1 time he played in the rain in the divisional round in 2014 and lost 23-15?

The vast majority of Brees's postseason games and basically all of his successes have happened in the confines of stat inflating domes. A quick glance shows the only playoff game I see Brees winning in the elements was 2014 against the Eagles, but he threw 1 TD and 2 INT's that game which again undermines the statistical comparison you are making.

It's apples to oranges.

 

That's a fair point.  

[CTM]

3 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

On a night where Brees breaks the all time record, and in a thread dedicated to Brees greatness, I came out of nowhere to talk about his legacy when compared to the popular choice for GOAT? Bro.

I'm biased. I'm on a Jets forum as a Jets fan who hates brady. I'll admit that. What's your reason for feeling the need to police anything brady related on these forums, and taking every opportunity to fight the good fight in defense of Brady's honor? Going as far as to state that the talent Brees was working with is the same as what Brady was working with.

Thank you for those splits. Please provide the splits detailing brady without belichick and with belichick, and lets see how many lifetime achievement awards brady's collecting.

 

Brady lifetime achievement awards: Most # SB's, # Wins, # Conference Championships, Division titles . etc..

Also, hes ahead now in TD's and QB rating and will be #2 in yards at retirement.

But most important of all he will be #1 in yards and td's and any significant passing stat for football played outdoors like it was meant to be played, not stat inflating sissy dome ball like Manning and Brees

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

3 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Don't tell us about stats? 

Right. I know stats. I like stats. I just don’t have a lot of use for them when they’re coming from people who only care about them some of the time.

[CTM]

4 minutes ago, nycdan said:

That's a fair point.  

ty, but much more fun if you get angry and argue like gwjf

[greenwichjetfan]

1 minute ago, CTM said:

Brady lifetime achievement awards: Most # SB's, # Wins, # Conference Championships, Division titles . etc..

Also, hes ahead now in TD's and QB rating and will be #2 in yards at retirement.

But most important of all he will be #1 in yards and td's and any significant passing stat for football played outdoors like it was meant to be played, not stat inflating sissy dome ball like Manning and Brees

Without Belichick though, he's a 6th round scrub. Although, maybe without Belichik, he'd also have avoided the distinction of being the only QB in league history to be suspended for cheating, so, there's that.

[greenwichjetfan]

3 minutes ago, CTM said:

ty, but much more fun if you get angry and argue like gwjf

It's GJF.

[CTM]

2 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Without Belichick though, he's a 6th round scrub. Although, maybe without Belichik, he'd also have avoided the distinction of being the only QB in league history to be suspended for cheating, so, there's that.

Ahh, retreating to the friendly confines of sucking up to the hoodie, who left the Jets at the alter, in order to diminish Brady

Strange choice but enjoy!

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

1 minute ago, greenwichjetfan said:

It's GJF.

I think he probably just assumed you didn’t know how to spell witch.

[Untouchable]

The record will belong to Darnold come 2038.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Just now, CTM said:

Ahh, retreating to the friendly confines of sucking up to the hoodie, who left the Jets at the alter, in order to diminish Brady

Strange choice but enjoy!

I feel like if this was about anything besides Brady derangement they’d have been able to keep going with the numbers for more than a page and a half.

[greenwichjetfan]

4 minutes ago, CTM said:

Ahh, retreating to the friendly confines of sucking up to the hoodie, who left the Jets at the alter, in order to diminish Brady

Strange choice but enjoy!

Talking about strange choices: when you constantly feel the need to suck up to a hated division rival on a Jets forum even when said divisional rival wasn't even been dissed, you're officially the exact same suckage as Chad Pennington.

[CTM]

1 minute ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

I think he probably just assumed you didn’t know how to spell witch.

 lol, I was concerned he wouldn't get I was referring to him with just gjf

[Savage69]

15 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Don't tell us about stats?  That's a pretty bold position.  Then I guess Charles Haley is the greatest defensive player in NFL history. 

This isn't tennis or golf.  Brady is an all-time great.  Rodgers is simply a better passer.  Better than Brady, Manning, Brees and all the rest.  All day every day including playoffs.  He didn't have the team, the coaches, or the cheating to get the rings.  

And he's only 6 feet tall..

[CTM]

Just now, greenwichjetfan said:

Talking about strange choices: when you constantly feel the need to suck up to a hated division rival on a Jets forum even when said divisional rival wasn't even been dissed, you're officially the exact same suckage as Chad Pennington.

[nycdan]

10 minutes ago, CTM said:

ty, but much more fun if you get angry and argue like gwjf

Sorry to disappoint

Perhaps if you completely dismissed the value of stats in this debate, I could work up some righteous indignation.  The dome effect is probably similar to the Colorado effect in baseball.  I would love to see a comparison of overall league stats year over year in terms of dome passing vs. open stadium passing.  I'm sure they exist somewhere.  That point, if anything, probably puts more value on the Rodgers vs. everyone else debate.  Just a guess here, but I have to believe overall conditions for passing, year over year, have to be worse in GB and perhaps BUF compared to everywhere else in the league, even NE.  

[greenwichjetfan]

8 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

I feel like if this was about anything besides Brady derangement they’d have been able to keep going with the numbers for more than a page and a half.

If you're going to include me in your "they'd", you better have some numbers to back you up.

[nycdan]

7 minutes ago, Savage69 said:

And he's only 6 feet tall..

But comparatively enormous hands (10 1/4").  And you know what that means...

[chirorob]

12 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Without Belichick though, he's a 6th round scrub. Although, maybe without Belichik, he'd also have avoided the distinction of being the only QB in league history to be suspended for cheating, so, there's that.

To be fair, without Walsh, Montana is a skinny 3rd rounder QB with a mediocre arm.   Without Shula, Johnny U is a 19th round pick of the Steelers, Steve Young was a USFL star without Walsh, Bart Starr was a nothing without Lombardi.

Most great QB's need a great HC, and vice versa.  The exception being Joe Gibbs in the 80s, who won with whatever.

Rogers is the best QB I have seen live.   I always gave it to Montana, but I was really more a kid then.   The rules are different, so it's hard to compare, people also forget young Joe could move around pretty well.

Brady has the best resume.   5 SB wins, 492 straight division titles, 2nd biggest salary earner in his family.

[chirorob]

2 minutes ago, nycdan said:

But comparatively enormous hands (10 1/4").  And you know what that means...

He wears big gloves.

[greenwichjetfan]

Just now, chirorob said:

To be fair, without Walsh, Montana is a skinny 3rd rounder QB with a mediocre arm.   Without Shula, Johnny U is a 19th round pick of the Steelers, Steve Young was a USFL star without Walsh, Bart Starr was a nothing without Lombardi.

Most great QB's need a great HC, and vice versa.  The exception being Joe Gibbs in the 80s, who won with whatever.

Rogers is the best QB I have seen live.   I always gave it to Montana, but I was really more a kid then.   The rules are different, so it's hard to compare, people also forget young Joe could move around pretty well.

Brady has the best resume.   5 SB wins, 492 straight division titles, 2nd biggest salary earner in his family.

The "to be fair" doesn't really apply here, because I agree with every single word you wrote. That was the basis of all of my posts in this thread until aten showed up.

[Scott Dierking]

48 minutes ago, CTM said:

You, out of nowhere, attempted to compare Brees favorable to Brady by highlighting areas you feel Brady has had an advantage while ignoring or discounting the advantageous Brees has had. I called you on it.  You did it again in the bolded. The reality that you don't want to accept is that Brady is just better. Below is Brees dome vs outdoor splits. As you can see, had he played just outdoors (not even in Northeast), he'd not be collecting any lifetime achievement awards

The only person who seems worked up here is you. The person who brought up Brady in a Brees thread is you.  Perhaps you are the one who is obsessed. I clearly have no emotional attachment to Brady's legacy either overall or specifically your opinion of it. I was drawn in by one-sidedness  of your argument, just like last time.

I have no horse in this race, other than this is an interesting debate, and I would like to see it rage on.

Based on your interesting comparison of Brees' dome vs non-dome, I did a little less strenuous category of home vs away splits for the 2 qbs (with a realization that some of Brees' away stats are compiled in away domes).

Your analysis does carry merit in difference of QB rating home vs away:  Brees, 102.4, vs 92.1. Brady 98.7 vs 96.4.

Completion rates are fairly negligible in difference: Brees, 68.18 vs 66.15 vs Brady 64.18 vs 63.83

The BIG surprise to me was the difference in total interceptions home v away: Brees 111 vs 117, Brady 66 vs 100

That was the shocker to me was the interceptions. I am unsure how to characterize that.

[Savage69]

16 minutes ago, nycdan said:

But comparatively enormous hands (10 1/4").  And you know what that means...

His wife is his biggest fan??

[greenwichjetfan]

5 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

I have no horse in this race, other than this is an interesting debate, and I would like to see it rage on.

Based on your interesting comparison of Brees' dome vs non-dome, I did a little less strenuous category of home vs away splits for the 2 qbs (with a realization that some of Brees' away stats are compiled in away domes).

Your analysis does carry merit in difference of QB rating home vs away:  Brees, 102.4, vs 92.1. Brady 98.7 vs 96.4.

Completion rates are fairly negligible in difference: Brees, 68.18 vs 66.15 vs Brady 64.18 vs 63.83

The BIG surprise to me was the difference in total interceptions home v away: Brees 111 vs 117, Brady 66 vs 100

That was the shocker to me was the interceptions. I am unsure how to characterize that.

Simple, the cheating gets harder away from Foxboro/Gillette. But don't tell that to brady's #1, CTM.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

3 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Simple, the cheating gets harder away from Foxboro/Gillette. But don't tell that to brady's #1, CTM.

If Brees is better anyway why are we dusting off the cheating trope?

[CTM]

7 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

I have no horse in this race, other than this is an interesting debate, and I would like to see it rage on.

Based on your interesting comparison of Brees' dome vs non-dome, I did a little less strenuous category of home vs away splits for the 2 qbs (with a realization that some of Brees' away stats are compiled in away domes).

Your analysis does carry merit in difference of QB rating home vs away:  Brees, 102.4, vs 92.1. Brady 98.7 vs 96.4.

Completion rates are fairly negligible in difference: Brees, 68.18 vs 66.15 vs Brady 64.18 vs 63.83

The BIG surprise to me was the difference in total interceptions home v away: Brees 111 vs 117, Brady 66 vs 100

That was the shocker to me was the interceptions. I am unsure how to characterize that.

That is surprising. Not sure how you account for that given the rest of his stats are pretty similiar other than there is far more variability on something that is happenning on 2% of his attempts than something happenning on all of his attempts (like completion % or ANY/A). Certainly you'd expect a slight down turn due to crowd noise, travel, etc but not a 50% increase in INT's.

I was looking at dome vs outdoor which is available on pro football reference splits, Brady only has 14 games in a dome for his career whereas Brees plays Atlanta every year (and even 2 extra games in warm climates with Carolina and Tampa)

[greenwichjetfan]

2 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

If Brees is better anyway why are we dusting off the cheating trope?

Because it's fun.

Ok your turn: If you had a point to make in this thread, why have any of your posts yet to reveal it?

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

4 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Because it's fun.

Ok your turn: If you had a point to make in this thread, why have any of your posts yet to reveal it?

I’ve been making it over and over again but here’s one more. Brees is going to end his career as the career leader in yards and touchdowns yet the whole case in his favor is excuses. Didn’t have Belichick. Didn’t have Moss. C*h*3*3*t*r*1*0*t*z. And of course per usual the case against Brady is Jets fans’ butt feelings.

[chirorob]

31 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

The "to be fair" doesn't really apply here, because I agree with every single word you wrote. That was the basis of all of my posts in this thread until aten showed up.

To be fair, I didn't realize that, and so I stand corrected.  Sort of.   Although then I guess we agree, so to be fair I am not corrected.

i don't know, I'm going to lay down now.

[Scott Dierking]

9 minutes ago, CTM said:

That is surprising. Not sure how you account for that given the rest of his stats are pretty similiar other than there is far more variability on something that is happenning on 2% of his attempts than something happenning on all of his attempts (like completion % or ANY/A). Certainly you'd expect a slight down turn due to crowd noise, travel, etc but not a 50% increase in INT's.

I was looking at dome vs outdoor which is available on pro football reference splits, Brady only has 14 games in a dome for his career whereas Brees plays Atlanta every year (and even 2 extra games in warm climates with Carolina and Tampa)

It is hard to describe as an anomaly, because I would almost expect that he would have more INT's at home than the road, as one would think the weather at home would generally be worse that what he sees on the road.

The number of attempts in the splits are almost equal. I am stumped to explain it.