Are the Sox negotiating in "good faith"

[#27TheDominator]

I think the Yanks would rather be out of pocket $16 mil for Pettite this season and then take a shot at signing Mat for $40-50 million out of pocket as opposed to a $30-50 mil posting fee on top of hte $40-50 mil contract.

That's my point exactly. Wouldn't you take Mat over Pettitte at same money/years? If so how do you justify an $8M per offer? It's half the going rate-not something to blame Boras about. If you're saying it's a starting point, they might as well offer the vet min.

[PFSIKH]

Please, you guys are being delusional. Its not Boras' fault he doesn't want his client to get screwed over. How many players would teams pay 51 million just to negotiate exclusively with? Barry Zito, Andy Pettitte, or Jason Schmidt? I doubt it. So why shouldn't he be making as much or more than them? If Schmidt is making 15+ million a year, then so should Matsuzaka if Boston is willing to pay that much just to negotiate with him. If I were him, I wouldn't take anything less than 3years/$42million. Them offering him 8 a year is an insult considering how the market has been set. You don't bid 51 million on a guy and then not pay him fair market price. If you won't sign the guy the first time you win the bid on him, you shouldn't be able to bid the second time if all you want to do is waste his time trying to lowball him.

You are wrong on a few fronts.

First, your logic is flawed. Is the 2 million the Yankees paid for Montero means he is 5x the player Mauer is? No. You are paying for potential. The Sox are willing to pay for that by giving him 7-8 million per year (initial offer) and probably more if Boras negotiated. However, Boras wants him paid in line with those top players who have prooven themselves. Even in the NFL, a first round pick has a contract that suggests they are the topped paid, but their early cap figures are often lower until the proove themselves.

Second, if it was indeed the Sox at fault. Why isn't Boras and the Japanese League going to MLB and complaining? If the Sox are indeed the problem, it seems Boras and the Japanese league would have a strong case for moving to the next team. However, there is silence.

AGain, Schmidt has won a 127 games in MLB. D-Mat has 0. With Schmidt you can justify a contract that large. For all you know, D-Mat is Nomo V.2. An average pitcher at best.;

[mbn007]

You are wrong on a few fronts.

First, your logic is flawed. Is the 2 million the Yankees paid for Montero means he is 5x the player Mauer is? No. You are paying for potential. The Sox are willing to pay for that by giving him 7-8 million per year (initial offer) and probably more if Boras negotiated. However, Boras wants him paid in line with those top players who have prooven themselves. Even in the NFL, a first round pick has a contract that suggests they are the topped paid, but their early cap figures are often lower until the proove themselves.

Second, if it was indeed the Sox at fault. Why isn't Boras and the Japanese League going to MLB and complaining? If the Sox are indeed the problem, it seems Boras and the Japanese league would have a strong case for moving to the next team. However, there is silence.

AGain, Schmidt has won a 127 games in MLB. D-Mat has 0. With Schmidt you can justify a contract that large. For all you know, D-Mat is Nomo V.2. An average pitcher at best.;

Disagree on all fronts here.

First, the 2 million for Montero did not blow out the other teams out of the water. They outbid others, but you can rest assurreed that it was by a couple hundred thousand, tops. Boston blew out the runner up by over 13-15 million, depending upon who you believe. This shows theyy think he is very worth being a top line pitcher. They wanted to make sure that they got him, and went far and above what everyone else did, or what teh reports were for the maximum bid. No one thought this would get above 30 million, yet at least 3 teams beat that figure.

Second, if you think so highly of D.Mat that you bid such a rediculous number on him, you are in essence stating that he is top-of-the-rotation material. Let's see what similar types have recieved this off-season:

Pettite - 16 million per.

Schmidt - 15.6 million per.

Zito - Break-the-bank per (figure on 16 million per).

So, a guy who is years younger than the first 2, and even a bit younger than Zito, should probably be held in similar regard, salary-wise, as this crop, in the minimum. Read the comments of Theo and crew after they won his rihts, and wined & dined him, last month

Ergo, offers in the 8 million range are an insult to Ted Lilly and Padilla. Surely to D. Mat, a pitcher you hod in such high regard.

I believe there is validity to the claims that the BoSox are not negotiating in good faith, if these reports of 8 million per are accurate. The current (sad) state of the pitcher's market must set the price he deserves, and the Bosox stupidly high bid shows where in this market he belongs.

[#27TheDominator]

You are wrong on a few fronts.

First, your logic is flawed. Is the 2 million the Yankees paid for Montero means he is 5x the player Mauer is? No. You are paying for potential. The Sox are willing to pay for that by giving him 7-8 million per year (initial offer) and probably more if Boras negotiated. However, Boras wants him paid in line with those top players who have prooven themselves. Even in the NFL, a first round pick has a contract that suggests they are the topped paid, but their early cap figures are often lower until the proove themselves.

Second, if it was indeed the Sox at fault. Why isn't Boras and the Japanese League going to MLB and complaining? If the Sox are indeed the problem, it seems Boras and the Japanese league would have a strong case for moving to the next team. However, there is silence.

AGain, Schmidt has won a 127 games in MLB. D-Mat has 0. With Schmidt you can justify a contract that large. For all you know, D-Mat is Nomo V.2. An average pitcher at best.;

You think they won't? If they went there now before the deadline they would be told that it was premature and they'd have to wait in case the Sox were only posturing.

If DMat can't "justify a contract that large" then how do you justify $51.1M? Blocking the Yankees seems pretty high up on that answer sheet.

[AFJF]

You think they won't? If they went there now before the deadline they would be told that it was premature and they'd have to wait in case the Sox were only posturing.

If DMat can't "justify a contract that large" then how do you justify $51.1M? Blocking the Yankees seems pretty high up on that answer sheet.

I'm not so sure about Boras wanting MLB to step in. I honestly think he would prefer having teams bid against one another next off-season as opposed to being stuck with negotiating with just one team this year. Granted he can probably get 15 mil per season if a legit team had made an offer on the posting but maybe he's thinking 20 is a possibility if Mat is a true FA.

[Scott Dierking]

This is a flawed system (like many in baseball), and one that I hope they change after the fiascos of this year.

Bottom line in my mind, the money that the Red Sox used to gain sole negotiating rights to thei player is NOT a reflection of the worth that they feel the player is.

What they smartly did was bid an amount to gain negotiating rights. Nothing more. It in no way measures the value of teh player. It measures what they feel is the value of sole negotiating rights. Big difference there.

What they obviously smartly considered was that their money was refundable, and through their sole negotiating rights, this player could not bargain with any other team.

That amounts to a process where an exhorbitant amount could be tendered to gain those rights. Again, that does not measure the worth of the player. These are 2 distinct scenarios. Ones does not lead to teh other.

The Red Sox played it smartly. As they are in a tough negotiating stance.

It is a bad system, but the Red Sox are playing it well.

[AFJF]

This is a flawed system (like many in baseball), and one that I hope they change after the fiascos of this year.

Bottom line in my mind, the money that the Red Sox used to gain sole negotiating rights to thei player is NOT a reflection of the worth that they feel the player is.

What they smartly did was bid an amount to gain negotiating rights. Nothing more. It in no way measures the value of teh player. It measures what they feel is the value of sole negotiating rights. Big difference there.

What they obviously smartly considered was that their money was refundable, and through their sole negotiating rights, this player could not bargain with any other team.

That amounts to a process where an exhorbitant amount could be tendered to gain those rights. Again, that does not measure the worth of the player. These are 2 distinct scenarios. Ones does not lead to teh other.

The Red Sox played it smartly. As they are in a tough negotiating stance.

It is a bad system, but the Red Sox are playing it well.

So you honestly believe in your heart that the Red Sox FO is so bad that they thought they were going to be able to sign one of the best pitchers on the planet for $8 million per season, and Scott Boras was going to help them make it happen? Sorry SD, not a chance in hell. The Sox knew who the agent was and they knew he was going to want to be paid accordingly. If they had no intention of paying the man what he's worth then it was a bogus move. Teams don't claim to be willing to pay 51 million for a guy who isn't the best player available at his position.

[Scott Dierking]

So you honestly believe in your heart that the Red Sox FO is so bad that they thought they were going to be able to sign one of the best pitchers on the planet for $8 million per season, and Scott Boras was going to help them make it happen? Sorry SD, not a chance in hell. The Sox knew who the agent was and they knew he was going to want to be paid accordingly. If they had no intention of paying the man what he's worth then it was a bogus move. Teams don't claim to be willing to pay 51 million for a guy who isn't the best player available at his position.

It may very well be a bogus move. Whether a team bid 1 miliion dollars, or one hundred million dollars to negotiate, it does not affect the price a team may want to pay him.

That is the system. I admit it is flawed. The Red Sox are using it to their advantage.

Some teams spend many multiple of million dollars on "global" player analysis, with the possibility that it could not pay off. All it is, is an investment.

What teh Red Sox got, was a pretty smart investment. What is teh down side for them? They did not get the player at the price they thought was fair? There are far worse things, and they did not risk a dime, if that comes true.

Shrewd.

[AFJF]

It may very well be a bogus move. Whether a team bid 1 miliion dollars, or one hundred million dollars to negotiate, it does not affect the price a team may want to pay him.

That is the system. I admit it is flawed. The Red Sox are using it to their advantage.

Some teams spend many multiple of million dollars on "global" player analysis, with the possibility that it could not pay off. All it is, is an investment.

What teh Red Sox got, was a pretty smart investment. What is teh down side for them? They did not get the player at the price they thought was fair? There are far worse things, and they did not risk a dime, if that comes true.

Shrewd.

It would make more sense to me if not for the fact that all this does is make the guy wait one more season before coming to the US as a FA and damages any future offers they make to a japanese team for one of their players. If you were a team in Japan next season and a posted player gets a bid from the Sox, what do you do? Risk wasting your time and losing your player with zero financial gain, or try to cut a deal with a team that is actually going to stick to it's word?

[Scott Dierking]

It would make more sense to me if not for the fact that all this does is make the guy wait one more season before coming to the US as a FA and damages any future offers they make to a japanese team for one of their players. If you were a team in Japan next season and a posted player gets a bid from the Sox, what do you do? Risk wasting your time and losing your player with zero financial gain, or try to cut a deal with a team that is actually going to stick to it's word?

From what I understand, this player REALLY wants to play American baseball, and if Boras does not get the deal done, Boras will risk a reputation in Japanese baseball as a deal breaker. I have heard this a couple of times now, and I don't know how real this is.

My hope is that gthey make this a draft, as well all the world players should be a draft situation.

[mbn007]

It may very well be a bogus move. Whether a team bid 1 miliion dollars, or one hundred million dollars to negotiate, it does not affect the price a team may want to pay him.

That is the system. I admit it is flawed. The Red Sox are using it to their advantage.

Some teams spend many multiple of million dollars on "global" player analysis, with the possibility that it could not pay off. All it is, is an investment.

What teh Red Sox got, was a pretty smart investment. What is teh down side for them? They did not get the player at the price they thought was fair? There are far worse things, and they did not risk a dime, if that comes true.

Shrewd.

Read the comments the Bosox front office made after winning his rights. Sounds a lot like they expected D. Mat to be a star, an ACE.

You do not hear such comments about a Ted Lilly, and he got 10 million per.

Boston bid an obsene amount to secure the rights to a top-of-the-rotation starter. In this market, that is 15 million or more (see Schmidt, Pettite, and soon , Zito). Offering 7-8 million is a display of creating a sham of the whole affair.

[mbn007]

From what I understand, this player REALLY wants to play American baseball, and if Boras does not get the deal done, Boras will risk a reputation in Japanese baseball as a deal breaker. I have heard this a couple of times now, and I don't know how real this is.

My hope is that gthey make this a draft, as well all the world players should be a draft situation.

Boras will have no problems repairing his reputation when he gets D. Mat a 6 year, 100+ million contract when he is finally a FA. In fact, more Japanese players will rush to him.

The Bosox reputation will likely never be cleaned from the tarnish they will have for offering a low-ball contract.

P.S. I still think this will get done. Perhaps this is all posturing, before the "11th hour".

[Sharrow]

You are wrong on a few fronts.

First, your logic is flawed. Is the 2 million the Yankees paid for Montero means he is 5x the player Mauer is? No. You are paying for potential. The Sox are willing to pay for that by giving him 7-8 million per year (initial offer) and probably more if Boras negotiated. However, Boras wants him paid in line with those top players who have prooven themselves. Even in the NFL, a first round pick has a contract that suggests they are the topped paid, but their early cap figures are often lower until the proove themselves.

Second, if it was indeed the Sox at fault. Why isn't Boras and the Japanese League going to MLB and complaining? If the Sox are indeed the problem, it seems Boras and the Japanese league would have a strong case for moving to the next team. However, there is silence.

AGain, Schmidt has won a 127 games in MLB. D-Mat has 0. With Schmidt you can justify a contract that large. For all you know, D-Mat is Nomo V.2. An average pitcher at best.;

Um no. Yours is the flawed logic. Montero is a completely different situation. And both are completely different situations than Matsuzaka. If Mauer were a free agent for the first time this season instead of just being arbitration eligible for the first time, he would get a hell of a lot more than 2 million. But you are right about paying for potential, and most people would say that Matsuzaka has more potential than any of the FA starting pitchers that were available.

Second, they've still got a little time left. They're not going to go to MLB to complain before the deadline.

And third, he did fine in the world league, and more than fine in japan. Thats not the same as mlb success, but like I said, he has the most potential and none of those other guys would get that kind of bid, not even Zito.

Scott's right though, Boston played it extremely well. But only if the most important thing to them was keeping him away from the yankees and everyone else. There's absolutely no way they could expect to sign a player like matsuzaka at that much under market value. If the most important thing to them was picking up a top of the rotation pitcher at market price, then they didn't play it well. But if thats the case, then the way they played it still doesn't hurt them in the long run because they still come out even.

You can only have it one way or the other. They either bid that high for him because they seriously wanted to have him in their rotation next year, meaning that they would be willing to do him right and pay him market value. Or they wanted to keep him away from the yankees, who nearly everyone thought would be the next highest bidder and maybe get lucky and sucker/bully him into a ****ty deal. Do they really want someone in their rotation who doesn't think he was paid or treated fairly? Thats just trouble waiting to happen.

[Sharrow]

There's definitely time though, 4 days is enough time to get a deal done if thats what they really want.

[mbn007]

There's definitely time though, 4 days is enough time to get a deal done if thats what they really want.

I recall reading that the signed deal needs to be in the MLB offices by the deadline. The original copy that MLB always receives. So this means all the physicals, et al, need to be done before then.

My guess is that he needs to be on a plane to Boston tomorrow if this is to come about. I believe he will be, although only if teh Bosox get off their low-ball reported offer of 7-8 million.

[PFSIKH]

Boras will have no problems repairing his reputation when he gets D. Mat a 6 year, 100+ million contract when he is finally a FA. In fact, more Japanese players will rush to him.

The Bosox reputation will likely never be cleaned from the tarnish they will have for offering a low-ball contract.

P.S. I still think this will get done. Perhaps this is all posturing, before the "11th hour".

I am not a Japanese cultural expert, but when I am hearing from Theo that Boras is not making counter offers and that the Sox are. It tells me the Sox are negotiating and the reason that the 51 million dollar business deal is not being consumated is because of an agent. How do the Sox lose face here? They do not.

Um no. Yours is the flawed logic. Montero is a completely different situation. And both are completely different situations than Matsuzaka. If Mauer were a free agent for the first time this season instead of just being arbitration eligible for the first time, he would get a hell of a lot more than 2 million. But you are right about paying for potential, and most people would say that Matsuzaka has more potential than any of the FA starting pitchers that were available.

The only difference is the environment they come from. You are paying for potential. Granted, D-Mat's potential is less of a risk and that is why he should earn more money, but 15 million per? This is not like they are gambling on the next USC QB. It is a Japanese pitcher. How many have come here and dominated? Or performed at a high level for a sustained period of time? None. That is why I think it should be a performance based contract with alot of incentives.

[AFJF]

I recall reading that the signed deal needs to be in the MLB offices by the deadline. The original copy that MLB always receives. So this means all the physicals, et al, need to be done before then.

My guess is that he needs to be on a plane to Boston tomorrow if this is to come about. I believe he will be, although only if teh Bosox get off their low-ball reported offer of 7-8 million.

Luccino and Epstein have flown out to Cali to meet face to face with Boras and D Mat so they either really want to get this done, or they're really putting on a good show.

[Bugg]

I hate the freaking Sawx. But who isn't rooting for them to make Boras miserable, if only for 3 or 4 more days, since he really has no leverage at all? Don't like those numbers, Scott-go eff yourself and your client goes back to Seibu to make peanuts witha team that doesn't want him.And also Scott the nect time a Japanese star comes looking for an agent he isn't gobng to pay you your top dollar rate since you cannot do any better than anyone else. Hewck, the best course of action would be to takes as short a deal as you can.

[Blackout]

I hate the freaking Sawx. But who isn't rooting for them to make Boras miserable, if only for 3 or 4 more days, since he really has no leverage at all? Don't like those numbers, Scott-go eff yourself and your client goes back to Seibu to make peanuts witha team that doesn't want him.And also Scott the nect time a Japanese star comes looking for an agent he isn't gobng to pay you your top dollar rate since you cannot do any better than anyone else. Hewck, the best course of action would be to takes as short a deal as you can.

you think Seibu wouldn't mind having the best pitcher in the league back another year?

its a win win for them, they'll make money either way

[mbn007]

Luccino and Epstein have flown out to Cali to meet face to face with Boras and D Mat so they either really want to get this done, or they're really putting on a good show.

Either they get it done, or this is the final show to let the world know that they tried, but could not complete a deal. But either way, you do not expect the Bosox FO to admit to a lack of good faith, do you?

Even if they speak very loudly with their low-ball offer.

[mbn007]

I am not a Japanese cultural expert, but when I am hearing from Theo that Boras is not making counter offers and that the Sox are. It tells me the Sox are negotiating and the reason that the 51 million dollar business deal is not being consumated is because of an agent. How do the Sox lose face here? They do not.

I have had the pleasure (??) of working with Japanese individuals for many years, both as co-workers, subordinates, as well as vendors and competitors. When you give an indication that you have a desire to deal, you better make sure it comes to fruition. Otherwise, there is an immediate loss of trust, and to repair that reputation is near-impossible.

And they have very long memories regarding these issues.

BTW - the Bosox FO is claiming that Boras refuses to negotiate. Boras may very well have told them that if you will not improve your offer, don't bother calling. Especially since you are giving a low-ball offer. Is that considered a case where the agent refuses to negotiate? And I bet this is exactly what transpired.

Yes, a failure to complete this deal, no matter how costly, will cost the Bosox FO to "lose face" with their future dealings with the Japanese. That's the way they operate.

[madmike1]

I have had the pleasure (??) of working with Japanese individuals for many years, both as co-workers, subordinates, as well as vendors and competitors. When you give an indication that you have a desire to deal, you better make sure it comes to fruition. Otherwise, there is an immediate loss of trust, and to repair that reputation is near-impossible.

And they have very long memories regarding these issues.

BTW - the Bosox FO is claiming that Boras refuses to negotiate. Boras may very well have told them that if you will not improve your offer, don't bother calling. Especially since you are giving a low-ball offer. Is that considered a case where the agent refuses to negotiate? And I bet this is exactly what transpired.

Yes, a failure to complete this deal, no matter how costly, will cost the Bosox FO to "lose face" with their future dealings with the Japanese. That's the way they operate.

Of course they are gonna blame Boras... They are trying to deflect their fans anger away from themselves.

[Sharrow]

The only difference is the environment they come from. You are paying for potential. Granted, D-Mat's potential is less of a risk and that is why he should earn more money, but 15 million per? This is not like they are gambling on the next USC QB. It is a Japanese pitcher. How many have come here and dominated? Or performed at a high level for a sustained period of time? None. That is why I think it should be a performance based contract with alot of incentives.

There's more of a difference than that. Montero is what he is, a prospect. Matsuzaka is stepping into a starter role, and deservedly so after the success he's had in japan and in the world league. Matsuzaka is arguable the best player in Japan.

Hell, there are only a dozen or so japanese players in MLB. You make it sound like 10 top pitchers from japan come to MLB every year and all fail. There are 5 that I can think of off the top of my head. Nomo, Ohka, Takatsu, Saito, and Otsuka. Nomo pitched very well before shoulder surgery, Ohka never did anything in Japan and has also had some shoulder problems, Takatsu has been solid at 35-37 years old, and Saito and Otsuka both have been very good pitchers despite being 34 and 36 years old.

In fact most of the players from japan playing right now have been at the least pretty solid. Iguchi, Johjima, the Matsui's, ok Hideki Matsui (although the other one finished strong last season), not to mention Ichiro and the pitchers i already mentioned.

[Sharrow]

If I were him, and they came to me with 8 million a year, when guys like gil meche are getting 11 per. I take an incentive contract. 8 million for the first year with incentives. 16 million per year for the next 2 or 3 years. And for the first year, the incentives would be a million more for every 4 games he starts. Simple as that.

[mbn007]

If I were him, and they came to me with 8 million a year, when guys like gil meche are getting 11 per. I take an incentive contract. 8 million for the first year with incentives. 16 million per year for the next 2 or 3 years. And for the first year, the incentives would be a million more for every 4 games he starts. Simple as that.

This may actually be the way to go, or Boston could give a long term contract, back-loaded.

[AFJF]

D-Mat is on a plane to Boston with Theo

[madmike1]

D-Mat is on a plane to Boston with Theo

Meanwhile, "D-Mat" is a nickname Boras made up a month ago for marketing reasons. Nobody in Japan calls him that.

lol

[AFJF]

lol

Well thank god I'm in England and not Japan or I'd be in big trouble

[Sharrow]

the "Letter-Three letter word" is played out already with all the Rod's.