The Official Discuss The Debate (BZ-TX) Thread

[shawn306]

What did AV do to "bail them out"?

He kicked a 48-yard FG, indoors with no wind whatsoever.

Isn't that what kickers are paid to do?

He bailed them out both times.

That D was totally gassed in both those games. You know it, I know it, and just about every Pats fan knows it.

AV saved your the Pats bacon with CLUTCH, now let me emphasize this again for you.

C-L-U-T-C-H

kicks in the biggest spots possible for a kicker to win those first two Super Bowls. The Defense had failed MISERABLY down the stretch of both those games.

Those were not the great shutdown gameplans that you discussed. Don't even try to put them in there with the Shutdowns of the Colts or the Eagles

(and even that one is debatable considering Ried piss poor clock management in that one).

[#27TheDominator]

If 2004 was such a long time ago, what the hell was 1969?

The start of the modern era. White cleats and all that.

27, but Scarnecchia is a great coach. He gets alot of the parts he has had to assemble. None of them will be allpro, but when called they all have done a decent job. If they signed with the Jets tomorrow, they would not be as good.

I agree about the value of good coaching. I haven't been grading the Pats o-line any more than the Raiders pass D. Troll can tell you about that. Still, I know that Garb and Tex constantly berate Light. If your LT is that bad I don't think you can consider that your '07 line will be superior to the Jets who have looked good and have rookies that look to be serious players at the two most important spots. Hell, we have depth too, Teague, Adrian Jones and Wade Smith have all seen significant starting time and they will all be battling for roster spots.

Who is the 5th? The top 3 in the AFC and Denver?

Chicago. Even though I don't believe in Grossman and kind of doubt they'd even make it to the big game, it will be easier for them to roll through the JV division with home field than the Pats to win on the road. Denver may still come out of this, but I'm not buying the rookie qb for this year yet.

What did AV do to "bail them out"?

He kicked a 48-yard FG, indoors with no wind whatsoever.

Isn't that what kickers are paid to do?

Yes, and corners are paid to cover Marvin Harrision, but they can't and don't.

[Garb]

Greatest Show on Turf: Wasn't that the one that they had to have AV bail them out at the last second ?

Hey wait that was the same defense that made Jake Delhomme look like Peyton Manning in 03. That same D that got bailed out again by AV.

The D had good moments and some very VERY shakey moments during that run.

I take serious exception to this ridiculous post. I am actually disappointed in the poster.

Adam "bailed" the Pats out in SB victory #1? Last time I checked the Pats were pinned deep in their own territory with less than a two minutes left and the score tied. If I recall, it was Tom Brady that marched the team into field goal range.

Jake Delhomme looked like Horse Face in SB#3 - in the second half, for sure. That's is the sort of thing that happens when you lose your two starting safeties (and one back-up) and one starting DB during the game. Good thing Tom Brady could go tit for tat in theh second half of that game. Man, what a barn-burner that turned out to be. Oh, and I won't mention Adam's TWO missed FG's in that SB either - which would mean he had three chances to "bail them out" and only connected on 1. Do you seriously beleive this dribble you write? You are better than that.

BTW - Mangini was the DB coach back then He of zone coverage, bend and don't break, smoke and mirrors fame.

Hmmm....notice that Brady's performance was paramount in those victories? Notice how he was awarded MVP honors for those two victories? Chad Pennington would have a better chance of seeing God (Sorry Alk LOL!) than ever reaching that sort of status.

[Maxman]

POTW NOM for BZ:

Ground Game: Is the easiest thing to fix. The running back position is the most plug and play and again, TX knows it. It starts with a good offensive line (check) and cap room (check). Anyone can go pick up Corey Dillion off the street and win a Super Bowl right?

I hope Tx brought a cut man. I am beginning to think Mike Tyson's crew might actually be more helpful. Tx is going to get hurt here. Someone should stop this fight.

[Garb]

POTW NOM for BZ:

I hope Tx brought a cut man. I am beginning to think Mike Tyson's crew might actually be more helpful. Tx is going to get hurt here. Someone should stop this fight.

That's crap. The year before they had Antowain Smith - and the same o-line. The year after they had Corey Dillon - who ran for a gazillion yards - and the same o-line. Wait, as a matter of fact, we lost our center and Warren Sapp's favorite JAG, Hochstein, was playing center.

Please.......

Like I said many, many pages ago, no way can a Pats fan win any debate here. Homerism wins everytime....regardless of its merit.

[JetCane]

POTW NOM for BZ:

I hope Tx brought a cut man. I am beginning to think Mike Tyson's crew might actually be more helpful. Tx is going to get hurt here. Someone should stop this fight.

Let's be fair. Give him a standing eight count first.

[16G-MONEY]

Fair points.

I agree the Patriots have lost some significant pieces. From coaches to players, alot of big pieces wear other uniforms.

My only disagreement is is that the Patriots 'do not stand a chance in hell' of winning the Superbowl. Even San Diego depite all their talent has essentially a rookie QB and Marty. It might not be probable, but it is not impossible that the Patriots could win this year. Or next.

I think you are reading into the VT signing too much. The Patriots carried two QBS all year. Running that risk for a game is one thing, for a playoff game is another. Brady has had shoulder issues for years. Their OL does have some depth, most of their back-ups have had significant starting time over the last two years due to injuries.

ok... "not a shot in hell" is clearly a hyperbole. I apologize for that. I had my green goggle on for that one. I DO believe, however, that it looks as though the Jets are heading in the opposite direction of the pats and that the Jets will win a Superbowl before the pats will. Anything can happen, but that's the way it looks right now... to me.

My comments about Vinny T come from someone extremely close to that deal. The pats ARE more worried about Brady's shoulder than they let on. And they SHOULD keep it under wraps. That would only cause problems. But no, I'm not reading into it too much.

[shawn306]

I take serious exception to this ridiculous post. I am actually disappointed in the poster.

Adam "bailed" the Pats out in SB victory #1? Last time I checked the Pats were pinned deep in their own territory with less than a two minutes left and the score tied. If I recall, it was Tom Brady that marched the team into field goal range.

Jake Delhomme looked like Horse Face in SB#3 - in the second half, for sure. That's is the sort of thing that happens when you lose your two starting safeties (and one back-up) and one starting DB during the game. Good thing Tom Brady could go tit for tat in theh second half of that game. Man, what a barn-burner that turned out to be. Oh, and I won't mention Adam's TWO missed FG's in that SB either.....(BTW - Mangini was the DB coach back then )

Hmmm....notice that Brady's performance was paramount in those victories? Notice how he was awarded MVP honors for those two victories? Chad Pennington would have a better chance of seeing God (Sorry Alk LOL!) than ever reaching that sort of status.

Garb you know me better than that.

I will ALWAYS give Brady the credit he deserves for being a clutch player. To sit there though and blow off AV kicks in both games and even the Oakland game for that matter (Which may have been even more CLUTCH considering the snow that night) is insane.

Remember this. What TX was talking about was those great Defensive game plans BB "drew up" in those games. I give him credit for the Manning game in the AFC Championship. All time classic.

To sit there though and say that the Pats shutdown the Rams and the Panthers is both those Super Bowls is ludicrous.

They couldn't stop either of them when it counted most. They got bailed out in the last minute by Brady (who got them down there) and AV who made the kick.

As far as the injuries in the Carolina Super Bowl. I don't want to hear it. You guys were able to win with freakin Troy Brown in your secondary. The Pats secondary spends more time IR than on the field.

Of course if you want to hear about how Chad perfromed against SD with a torn rotator cuff then fine be my guest.

[Garb]

Tom Brady's issues have more to do with the fact that he has no one to throw to. That is very obvious.

You are all nuts. Nuts! The Pats are ranked near the top in red zone efficiency. They are ranked near the top in defense. Are the jets ranked near the top in anything? Anything?

[16G-MONEY]

Garb you know me better than that.

I will ALWAYS give Brady the credit he deserves for being a clutch player. To sit there though and blow off AV kicks in both games and even the Oakland game for that matter (Which may have been even more CLUTCH considering the snow that night) is insane.

Remember this. What TX was talking about was those great Defensive game plans BB "drew up" in those games. I give him credit for the Manning game in the AFC Championship. All time classic.

To sit there though and say that the Pats shutdown the Rams and the Panthers is both those Super Bowls is ludicrous.

They couldn't stop either of them when it counted most. They got bailed out in the last minute by Brady (who got them down there) and AV who made the kick.

As far as the injuries in the Carolina Super Bowl. I don't want to hear it. You guys were able to win with freakin Troy Brown in your secondary. The Pats secondary spends more time IR than on the field.

Of course if you want to hear about how Chad perfromed against SD with a torn rotator cuff then fine be my guest.

Without AV we could quite possibly be comparing Brady to other QBs that had outstanding talent that never won a SB. He's not as GOOD as those other two QBs. Only the record would be the point of comparison.

[Garb]

Garb you know me better than that.

I will ALWAYS give Brady the credit he deserves for being a clutch player. To sit there though and blow off AV kicks in both games and even the Oakland game for that matter (Which may have been even more CLUTCH considering the snow that night) is insane.

Remember this. What TX was talking about was those great Defensive game plans BB "drew up" in those games. I give him credit for the Manning game in the AFC Championship. All time classic.

To sit there though and say that the Pats shutdown the Rams and the Panthers is both those Super Bowls is ludicrous.

They couldn't stop either of them when it counted most. They got bailed out in the last minute by Brady (who got them down there) and AV who made the kick.

AV missed two fg's in the Panthers game. Love how people forget that. Brady had more to do with the first two victories than Adam - yes, Adam made the game winning field goal - but it was Tom who put him in that position. In the second half of the Panthers game, Harrison was out, Wilson was out and Poole out with injuries sustained during the game. And again, it was Mangini's secondary! BB's game plan, for sure....and I'm not quite sure how you game plan injuries.

I will beleive this forever: Charlie Weiss had more to do with the last two SB victories than BB or Mangini.

As far as the Rams - that was back in the day when you could beat the sh*t out of the receivers and not get flagged. Then Polian got involved after the Pats smacked 'em around in the playoff's - and the five yard rule was "enforced."...because, well, you can't hit Harrison too hard you know?

[PatsFanTX]

Are the jets ranked near the top in anything? Anything?

Yes, the Jets are ranked #1 in having delusional fans.

[JetCane]

Garb you know me better than that.

I will ALWAYS give Brady the credit he deserves for being a clutch player. To sit there though and blow off AV kicks in both games and even the Oakland game for that matter (Which may have been even more CLUTCH considering the snow that night) is insane.

Remember this. What TX was talking about was those great Defensive game plans BB "drew up" in those games. I give him credit for the Manning game in the AFC Championship. All time classic.

To sit there though and say that the Pats shutdown the Rams and the Panthers is both those Super Bowls is ludicrous.

They couldn't stop either of them when it counted most. They got bailed out in the last minute by Brady (who got them down there) and AV who made the kick.

As far as the injuries in the Carolina Super Bowl. I don't want to hear it. You guys were able to win with freakin Troy Brown in your secondary. The Pats secondary spends more time IR than on the field.

Of course if you want to hear about how Chad perfromed against SD with a torn rotator cuff then fine be my guest.

Does anyone else notice that shawn has been on fire lately? (Garb, you're always on, but I digress).

BTW, the patsys gave up the tying TD with a minute to go vs Carolina, but caught a huge break when the ensuing KO went OOB. Mcnabb ate them up in that SB (30 of 51 for 357 yards and three touchdowns) and the Rams outgained the Patriots 427-267 in total yards in that game. There was no defensive genius in evidence in those SB games.

Okay, that's my patsy post for the season.

[16G-MONEY]

BZ just posted a good point. It shows that TX's argument is based on nothing substantial other than his hatred for the Jets and blind love for the Pats. He just showed that TX's poor widdle Patsie ego would be hurt to admit that it's possible for the Jets to succeed next year ahead of his beloved Brady and Co.

[greeniemeanie]

Good luck in the debate BZ and TX. I look forward to some good reading later tonight when I have the chance.

TX: 1969 and 2004 are not today........I never made the argument that the Jets are a dynasty, nor did I infer they are the authority on football this year. However, you did do both of those things regarding your beloved gaytriots.

Save some energy for BZ, because if yesterday is any indicator, you're gonna need it.

Question,

Do you like butter or jelly with your Toast?

[PatsFanTX]

Please.......

Like I said many, many pages ago, no way can a Pats fan win any debate here. Homerism wins everytime....regardless of its merit.

How am I suppose to win this debate when my opponent conveniently "makes up" his facts?

The only chance in hell that I have is if the votes are counted in Florida.

[BP]

How am I suppose to win this debate when my opponent conveniently "makes up" his facts?

The only chance in hell that I have is if the votes are counted in Florida.

Dude..BZ is skinning you alive..it's getting embarrassing..show something man..

[Scott Dierking]

What TX is famous for is changing the criteria of an analysis to support his own argument.

Sometimes top 10 defenses are based on points allowed

Sometimes they are based on total yards

Sometimes they are based on rushing yards allowed

Those are all different criteria, that mean different things.

BTW TX, in terms of total yards allowed the Jets are 3-3 against those teams this year

In terms of points allowed, they are 3-4 against those teams this year.

Where does 5-15 come from, and what was the criteria?

[PatsFanTX]

Where does 5-15 come from, and what was the criteria?

Top 10 defenses points allowed, not yardage.

[Scott Dierking]

Top 10 defenses points allowed, not yardage.

3-4 this year, that means 2-11 prior to 2006?

If so, that is some improvement!

[Scott Dierking]

Top 10 defenses points allowed, not yardage.

BTW-Given that criteria, the Jets are ranked #13 defense in the league. Another vast improvement

[Bugg]

Oh, rankings are so improtant. Pray tell, where was the Pats offense ranked the years they won it? The numbers on the scorebaord matter. Edwards was always bragging about where the Jets defense was rated, and during games it's completely meanignless.

BZ is winning this; if it were a prizefight, it's a 2nd round TKO.

[Maxman]

Dude..BZ is skinning you alive..it's getting embarrassing..show something man..

Damn, that is coming from your boy Tx. BP is your boy. And he is standing in your corner like Mickey. Just pleading with you to stay down. This fight is over son.

[SouthernJet]

. Are the jets ranked near the top in anything? Anything?

Yes. No Sharon Shenocca DNA on Coaches body parts.

[JetCane]

You have a great ability to nit pick one number, but almost no ability to put together a cohesive argument.

I am sorry but one liners and smilies won't help you in here.

BZ

[Maxman]

At the end of this I want BZ to grab the mic and give the Rocky IV speech.

If you can change, and I can change -- everybody can change!

It will be interesting to see how Tx handles this defeat. Will he be humbled by this experience? People take getting schooled differently. When Smizzy was picked on as a child he rebelled. That is why he is covered it tattos. Most people don't go that route but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[PatsFanTX]

Damn, that is coming from your boy Tx. BP is your boy.

Max, are you really that naive?

BP is just adding fuel to the fire, nothing more.

Hopefully, BZ can finish the debate without making things up to support his arguement.

[GimmeShelter]

BTW-Given that criteria, the Jets are ranked #13 defense in the league. Another vast improvement

LOL....TX would be perfect for one of those "wanna get away" commercials after that SD.

[Garb]

Oh, TX - like you had a chance in hell of winning over a Jest fan? Please....homerism is a by-product of delusion and stupidity.

These people use speculation as fact. Lemme use some fact.

The demise of the New England Patriots has been greatly exxagerrated. The two most important statistical categories in football are: Fewest points allowed and most point scored. The Patriots are ranked second in fewest points allowed and 9th in most points scored.

I will focus on the defense....the improved defense....the one ranked second in fewest points allowed and defense so under-rated it is comical:

Is Tedy Bruschi THAT important to the defense? He did miss four games last year. Was Duane Starks that much of a dud (well, yah, he was) but he was benched when it became clear that he sucked more than a five dollar hooker? Is Tully Banta-Cain the second coming of Willie McGinest? Is Pees better than Mangini?

[joewilly]

Tom Brady's issues have more to do with the fact that he has no one to throw to. That is very obvious.

You are all nuts. Nuts! The Pats are ranked near the top in red zone efficiency. They are ranked near the top in defense. Are the jets ranked near the top in anything? Anything?

the jets are ranked near the top in the afce garb

[PatsFanTX]

These people use speculation as fact. Lemme use some fact.

Speculation is all BZ has used in the debate.

When he actually provided some facts, they were srong.

[Garb]

Speculation is all BZ has used in the debate.

When he actually provided some facts, they were srong.

And you expected what exactly? You have been here forever. You know what these people are like. A win - and it's Superbowl time - a loss, and they are ready to start Clemmons. Seriously.

But I'm curious as to why you would even think you could win this argument on a Jets board? That chances of that happening are as good as you ever winning POTW. "nevah" gonna happen. Jets fans are "wicked retahded homah's"

[Maxman]

Anyone else think that Tx wouldn't be spending so much time in this thread if he was winning this debate?

Man I just hope we can find something for Tx to do when this is over. I guess we could always use help with the buckets at ringside.

[Jetlag]

Tx, the Jets are 12th in points allowed. I thought that was your criteria. Now you're using 24th.

You can grasp for another one if you want.

[BP]

Speculation is all BZ has used in the debate.

When he actually provided some facts, they were srong.

You have been virtually kicked in the ass