2006 Jets draft - a year later

[MasonJet]

I didn't say he would have been a great pick. But he was the player that they were targeting and they lost him by getting a little too cute. Hopefully the lesson was not lost on them.

I do agree that they were trying to be fancy when they did that, as moving down 5 picks hardly seems worth doing if the guy you want is right there. However, I would say this is the only major mistake that was made. Ferguson was undoubtedly the right choice to make, and assuming McNeill would have been there was not worth it when you can have a talent like Ferguson anyway. Also, it's not worth just hoping that a guy will be available when you pick him especially when that guy has a serious back problem.

[Sperm Edwards]

I do agree that they were trying to be fancy when they did that, as moving down 5 picks hardly seems worth doing if the guy you want is right there. However, I would say this is the only major mistake that was made. Ferguson was undoubtedly the right choice to make, and assuming McNeill would have been there was not worth it when you can have a talent like Ferguson anyway. Also, it's not worth just hoping that a guy will be available when you pick him especially when that guy has a serious back problem.

I thought Ferguson was a good pick. Not an A+ pick like Mangold, but a good pick. If he turns into the annual pro-bowler we drafted him to be, then the grade gets higher at that time. This was a 1-year grade with an eye on a combination of performance, value, and production. If I was purely grading on performance in year one, I'd have given them an F for Clemens, an F for Pociask, and a C-minus for Eric Smith, who only sparingly saw the field, and a C for Drew Coleman because he got benched after 1 sub-par start as a rookie. That would be dumb.

[Pragmatic Bus]

i think sperm is going through a midlife crisis.

[Arsis]

midlife crisis at 70? man he's gonna live a long life.

[Pragmatic Bus]

midlife crisis at 70? man he's gonna live a long life.

hey sperms can last as long as they are refrigerated

[will]

Sperm is on the money!

The Jets let Cogong go because none of the teams with the intervening picks had shown any indication of interest in him. They were snookered by Philly who drafted him without having interviewed him, etc., at least publicly. And, assuming Cogong's career isnt over, PHA wouldnt trade him for Schlegel.

I remember being so pumped for last year's draft and being continually stunned with the unusuall (bad?) picks. So many slow guys that were projected, as Sperm points out, two rounds or more after the Jets picked the guy (ie, Schlegel and Eric Smith). I believe neither Posciak nor Coleman would not have been drafted had the Jets not taken them. I hated the Brad Smith pick but that one seems to have worked out just fine - I doubt the overall record of draftees who are picked to play a new position in the NFL is successful.

Generally, I believe the Jets have learned from their mistakes and will have a good draft. These guys are smart and dedicated. I love them.

[#27TheDominator]

Sperm is on the money!

The Jets let Cogong go because none of the teams with the intervening picks had shown any indication of interest in him. They were snookered by Philly who drafted him without having interviewed him, etc., at least publicly. And, assuming Cogong's career isnt over, PHA wouldnt trade him for Schlegel.

I remember being so pumped for last year's draft and being continually stunned with the unusuall (bad?) picks. So many slow guys that were projected, as Sperm points out, two rounds or more after the Jets picked the guy (ie, Schlegel and Eric Smith). I believe neither Posciak nor Coleman would not have been drafted had the Jets not taken them. I hated the Brad Smith pick but that one seems to have worked out just fine - I doubt the overall record of draftees who are picked to play a new position in the NFL is successful.

Generally, I believe the Jets have learned from their mistakes and will have a good draft. These guys are smart and dedicated. I love them.

I have to say that Eric Smith does not look as slow as advertised. As Bit says, I think he had an off day running at the combine and supposedly he looked better on pro day.

[gang_green03]

We had about 5 major contributors out of this draft so far, 2 of which started all 16 games and Washington 8 games, 1 is already a pro-bowler and another has that potential as well. If this isn't considered a successful draft I don't know what is. It was a good borderline great draft.

And as far as waiting on McNeil, its so easy to look back on that in hindsight. There was no way to know that he'd last that long. He fell for a reason and his back problem is not going away. The concern was that he will not be able to have a long career and that's still a question. Brick was the right pick at that spot every prospect has weaknesses top 5 or not.

[Gibbon]

Gocong was pretty much told that. The only way that gets communicated is either directly from the Jets to Gocong, or indirectly from the Jets to Gocong's agent to Gocong. Of course the Jets FO never officially said that, particularly after the fact. In all of Mangini's & Tannenbaum's interviews they are very aware of the words they choose. They certainly wouldn't say anything so stupid PR-wise. So the only "proof" you would accept is Tannenbaum stating, "We targeted Chris Gocong. I thought he'd stick around for 5 more picks. I was very wrong. So instead of the player I really wanted, I settled on Anthony Schlegel who is not the player I wanted there."

Again, this was not a "normal" third round. Likewise, 2005 was not a normal third round either; most of those players look like 5th-round talent. In the 3rd round of '06 there were still plenty of players with (traditionally) top-40 talent. We opted for a guy who was projected around #150 at best. It was a bad pick. It was poor value for the pick EVEN IF he becomes a successful player. Because that means we went with Jason Pociask instead of one of the players I mentioned, NOT because we went with Schlegel instead of one of those same players. There was a VERY high likelihood he'd have been there 80 picks later. The players I named had a very LOW likelihood of being there 80 picks later.

That's why, as much as the Saints liked him AS a sleeper, they didn't draft Colston in round 1. Or round 2, or round 3, or round 4, or round 5, or round 6. Because he was going to be there ANYWAY, and the players selected in those earlier rounds would not.

Look. I am VERY into this GM and HC. I'm a big fan. But that doesn't mean they do not make mistakes, nor does it mean that it is blasphemous to express such sentiment AS a fan. Being critical of them is BECAUSE I think highly of them. If I set the bar low for these two - say if Matt Millen was suddenly our GM - I would be ecstatic with this draft. These guys are smart and I expect better & smarter decisions than trying to find "sleepers" in the early third round when first-round talent is still on the board. You find sleepers later on. Not when road-grader guards & King Kong-sized nose tackles with first-round grades are on the board.[/quote

Gocong told you this or did you read it somewhere, like in Cimini, Leberfeld or some other "reliable" source. I wasnt questioning the validity of your source just wondering who it was.

Look, my problem with this whole thread is that you are so into the draft that you cant see the forest for the trees.

1. Your draft experts tell you that Schlegel was at best a 5th rounder so you assume its true.

2.You cant name another team that wanted to draft Schlegel so you assume that no one else wanted him.

3.You think the Jets intended to draft with their first pick in the third, got cute, and lost him so you assume they settled for Schlegel. You assume that an inexperienced staff got taken.

4.Your draft experts tell you that players like Gabe Watson, Max Jean Giles, Ko Simpson, Jerious Norwood had first or second or third round talent and you assume its true.

Here are some alternatives for you:

1a. Your draft experts spent exactly 2 minutes combined evaluating Schlegel and worked based on assumptions and old information. The actual teams that worked him out and interviewed him spent a few hours and sometimes whole days evaluating him.

2a. The Jets knew which other teams were intersted in Schlegel, they wanted to make sure they got him, and they picked him exactly where they wanted him.

3a. The Jets decided that they didnt want Gocong, saw a chance to pick up an extra pick, traded down and got Schlegel lower than they were going to take him anyway.

4a. Every single NFL team passed on the guys your "experts" claimed had first or second round talent twice. Could it be that they new something that you and the other draft experts didnt know.

The bottom line is that you dont know that Schlegel wasnt the exact player that the Jets wanted, that they were dissapointed not to get Gocong, or that any of the players who you deemed a good value at the Schlegel pick would have worked out with Jets.

So, its entirely possible that everything you've said about the Jets draft -- not just the Schlegel or E. Smith pick -- is a lot of sound with little meaning. The thing is, and the point I've been trying to make is, that its too early to judge the draft in FOOTBALL terms. You are welcome to evaluate it in terms of one isolated draft all you want. Everyone is entitled to their own form of mental masturbation.

If Schlegel plays the next three years for the Jets at ILB and they consistently make the playoffs do you really think anyone other than you is going to be whining about the value (in terms of picks) that they gave up to draft him in the third.

[PeterNorth09]

We had about 5 major contributors out of this draft so far, 2 of which started all 16 games and Washington 8 games, 1 is already a pro-bowler and another has that potential as well. If this isn't considered a successful draft I don't know what is. It was a good borderline great draft.

And as far as waiting on McNeil, its so easy to look back on that in hindsight. There was no way to know that he'd last that long. He fell for a reason and his back problem is not going away. The concern was that he will not be able to have a long career and that's still a question. Brick was the right pick at that spot every prospect has weaknesses top 5 or not.

It's so easy to look back in hindsight now? It was real easy for me to say wait until 29 or 35 to draft a lineman months before the draft.

The real reason the front office drafted Ferguson at 4 and passed over both Leinart and Cutler was because they, like almost everyone on this site and the so-called "experts" thought D'Brickashaw Ferguson was head and shoulders better than any other lineman in this draft.

You guys whine and complain so much about Pennington til no end yet you were cheering on draft day when we let Leinart and Cutler slip through our fingers at 4 for an OT who wasn't really that great.

[mbn007]

I have to say that Eric Smith does not look as slow as advertised. As Bit says, I think he had an off day running at the combine and supposedly he looked better on pro day.

And in a Jets uniform.

[Sperm Edwards]

Gocong told you this or did you read it somewhere, like in Cimini, Leberfeld or some other "reliable" source. I wasnt questioning the validity of your source just wondering who it was.

Look, my problem with this whole thread is that you are so into the draft that you cant see the forest for the trees.

1. Your draft experts tell you that Schlegel was at best a 5th rounder so you assume its true.

2.You cant name another team that wanted to draft Schlegel so you assume that no one else wanted him.

3.You think the Jets intended to draft with their first pick in the third, got cute, and lost him so you assume they settled for Schlegel. You assume that an inexperienced staff got taken.

4.Your draft experts tell you that players like Gabe Watson, Max Jean Giles, Ko Simpson, Jerious Norwood had first or second or third round talent and you assume its true.

Here are some alternatives for you:

1a. Your draft experts spent exactly 2 minutes combined evaluating Schlegel and worked based on assumptions and old information. The actual teams that worked him out and interviewed him spent a few hours and sometimes whole days evaluating him.

2a. The Jets knew which other teams were intersted in Schlegel, they wanted to make sure they got him, and they picked him exactly where they wanted him.

3a. The Jets decided that they didnt want Gocong, saw a chance to pick up an extra pick, traded down and got Schlegel lower than they were going to take him anyway.

4a. Every single NFL team passed on the guys your "experts" claimed had first or second round talent twice. Could it be that they new something that you and the other draft experts didnt know.

The bottom line is that you dont know that Schlegel wasnt the exact player that the Jets wanted, that they were dissapointed not to get Gocong, or that any of the players who you deemed a good value at the Schlegel pick would have worked out with Jets.

So, its entirely possible that everything you've said about the Jets draft -- not just the Schlegel or E. Smith pick -- is a lot of sound with little meaning. The thing is, and the point I've been trying to make is, that its too early to judge the draft in FOOTBALL terms. You are welcome to evaluate it in terms of one isolated draft all you want. Everyone is entitled to their own form of mental masturbation.

If Schlegel plays the next three years for the Jets at ILB and they consistently make the playoffs do you really think anyone other than you is going to be whining about the value (in terms of picks) that they gave up to draft him in the third.

Don’t give the “if the glove don’t fit you must acquit” defense. That if I don’t have video tape and quoted transcripts of Tannenbaum admitting he messed up that it didn’t happen. And your suggestion that there is some conspiracy against Tannenbuam by sportswriters who you are loosely claiming must have fabricated a post-draft comment from Gocong is a poor argument.

If I can’t see the forest for the trees, you can’t see other players for Ohio State.

1. Nobody else had Schlegel ranked as the 71st or 76th best prospect in the country. Find someone who said they did & then you can make that assertion.

2. I don’t care who else wanted him. You don’t alter your draft board & take a guy 2 rounds over where he was supposed to go out of fear that someone else will stupidly take him 2 rounds early themselves.

3. They DID get taken. Particularly since the team they traded down with ended up being the team that took the player they reportedly had targeted. As much as I support this HC and GM, I’m not an apologist for them.

4. Players are ranked for a variety of reasons. At OSU, Schlegel was on the field with two of the country’s very best LB’ers (as you well know) who were two of the country’s best prospects at ANY position. To assume he would be just as good as a pro, without two of the country’s best 3-4 LB’ers on the field with him, is a major reach in judgment.

1a. Ask Bitonti & R44 (or people who rank players on other sites) if they myopically spend no more than 2 minutes evaluating a player. Players get ranked at first before the combine. Then their draft ranking changes after the combine. They watch film on the players. They watch college games every week. They discuss the players strengths & weaknesses on the field & off it. If you think all they do is look at height, weight, and 40-time, you are laying a far heavier insult upon them than you are laying upon me.

2a. & 3a. THAT is a much bigger assumption (and one that no one has ever expressed, even second-hand) than the Jets missing out on the player who (either directly or through his agent) had been contacted by Tannenbaum.

4a. Sure that could be. But I don’t have as much reverence for the intelligence or prospect evaluation that “every single” GM does. Not for non-Jets teams, when I see the Redskins trading two 2nd-rounders to select Rocky McIntosh; nor for our own Jets when the likes of Alex Van Dyke & Rick Terry each get taken 31st in the country.

You’re really attacking the wrong person here. I had NO PROBLEM drafting Schlegel if they think they saw something in him. Even if what they think they have ends up being incorrect. What I had a problem with was drafting him so high in such a deep draft. Failing to address HB, for example, with a player like Norwood eventually caused the team to trade away yet another mid-round pick to acquire Barlow not 3 months later. One could look at the Schlegel pick as Schlegel & Barlow instead of Norwood and a 4th-rounder this year. We’re still looking for an OLB that would have been filled by Gocong (who was winning the job in Philly before he got injured by the way). With DRob’s cap # at $9M next year we’re going to be looking for a NT that may not exist instead of taking Watson; or we could keep DRob for DE in that scenario as well (which would have made giving Kenyon Coleman a $20M contract unnecessary). Same thing with OG to replace Kendall or Moore (or both) by next year. Many (including myself) want to take Blalock with our first-round pick this year. It would be less of an immediate need if we took a road-grader like Jean-Gilles last year. Take a look at the HB’s this year. I know Tannenbaum did. By passing on Norwood last year, and with Peterson & Lynch likely gone, at #25 we were either going to pass on the position or reach for a lower-ranked player. MT clearly wanted to do neither so he went out & got Jones & gave him a $12M SB. And so on. The players you draft affect the players you’re going to draft & the FA’s you’re going to target.

[MTJ06]

Gocong was pretty much told that. The only way that gets communicated is either directly from the Jets to Gocong, or indirectly from the Jets to Gocong's agent to Gocong. Of course the Jets FO never officially said that, particularly after the fact. In all of Mangini's & Tannenbaum's interviews they are very aware of the words they choose. They certainly wouldn't say anything so stupid PR-wise. So the only "proof" you would accept is Tannenbaum stating, "We targeted Chris Gocong. I thought he'd stick around for 5 more picks. I was very wrong. So instead of the player I really wanted, I settled on Anthony Schlegel who is not the player I wanted there."

I didn't say he would have been a great pick. But he was the player that they were targeting and they lost him by getting a little too cute. Hopefully the lesson was not lost on them.

Sperm is on the money!

The Jets let Cogong go because none of the teams with the intervening picks had shown any indication of interest in him. They were snookered by Philly who drafted him without having interviewed him, etc., at least publicly. And, assuming Cogong's career isnt over, PHA wouldnt trade him for Schlegel.

You guys see the Joey Porter commercial on NFL network. He talks about how dallas visited him before the draft and brought him all kinds of dallas gear for him and his family, and they sat around during the draft wearing it knowing dallas was going to pick him. Then they called him during the draft and said they were going to pick him that round, he sat there only to watch dallas pick come and go and wound up a steeler. So much bs and missdirection goes on in the draft that we really cant say Gocong was the guy the Jets were targeting. Maybe he was, maybe he wasnt. we will never know.

The only way you know a team wants a guy on draft day is when they are on the clock and the commish steps up to the podium & calls out his name. Even then who knows they may be drafting him to trade to someone else.

[Gibbon]

Don’t give the “if the glove don’t fit you must acquit” defense. That if I don’t have video tape and quoted transcripts of Tannenbaum admitting he messed up that it didn’t happen. And your suggestion that there is some conspiracy against Tannenbuam by sportswriters who you are loosely claiming must have fabricated a post-draft comment from Gocong is a poor argument.

If I can’t see the forest for the trees, you can’t see other players for Ohio State.

1. Nobody else had Schlegel ranked as the 71st or 76th best prospect in the country. Find someone who said they did & then you can make that assertion.

2. I don’t care who else wanted him. You don’t alter your draft board & take a guy 2 rounds over where he was supposed to go out of fear that someone else will stupidly take him 2 rounds early themselves.

3. They DID get taken. Particularly since the team they traded down with ended up being the team that took the player they reportedly had targeted. As much as I support this HC and GM, I’m not an apologist for them.

4. Players are ranked for a variety of reasons. At OSU, Schlegel was on the field with two of the country’s very best LB’ers (as you well know) who were two of the country’s best prospects at ANY position. To assume he would be just as good as a pro, without two of the country’s best 3-4 LB’ers on the field with him, is a major reach in judgment.

1a. Ask Bitonti & R44 (or people who rank players on other sites) if they myopically spend no more than 2 minutes evaluating a player. Players get ranked at first before the combine. Then their draft ranking changes after the combine. They watch film on the players. They watch college games every week. They discuss the players strengths & weaknesses on the field & off it. If you think all they do is look at height, weight, and 40-time, you are laying a far heavier insult upon them than you are laying upon me.

2a. & 3a. THAT is a much bigger assumption (and one that no one has ever expressed, even second-hand) than the Jets missing out on the player who (either directly or through his agent) had been contacted by Tannenbaum.

4a. Sure that could be. But I don’t have as much reverence for the intelligence or prospect evaluation that “every single” GM does. Not for non-Jets teams, when I see the Redskins trading two 2nd-rounders to select Rocky McIntosh; nor for our own Jets when the likes of Alex Van Dyke & Rick Terry each get taken 31st in the country.

I'm not saying and have never said that your statements were wrong. I merely pointed out that they were based on assumptions. I offered my alternatives to your statements as assumptions to prove the point that assumptions could be made that ran counter to your assumptions.

Your latest post (quoted partially above) is also heavily weighted with assumptions so let me give you alternative assumptions to those:

1. How do you know that no team had Schlegel rated as a third rounder? You are assuming that they didnt because draft experts didnt have him that high. The real draft experts are the teams. I dont know if any other team had Schlegel rated as a 3rd rounder either. But its just as valid for me to assume they did have Schlegel rated as a third rounder as it is for you to assume they didnt.

2. You are assuming that teams evaluate the value of their picks in the same way you did and again you are assuming that because the draft experts had him rated as a 5th rounder that every team did. This FO and staff have made it clear that they want to use their picks to get the player they want, not necessarily the highest rated player that is left on the board. By your logic they should have taken a player they didnt really want because he was rated higher and risked losing a player they really wanted. I assume they operate on a different draft philosophy from you.

3. If as you assume, the Jets really did want Gocong, then you are right. They did get taken. But it is equally valid to assume that they had decided not to take Gocong and traded down to get extra picks in an effort to build the team through the draft.

4. You assume that Schlegel's success at Ohio State was based on the two excellent LBs he played with. I assume that Schlegel contributed to thier excellence. Both men had the best seasons of their careers with Schlegel on the field. And when Carpenter was hurt in the Michigan game Schlegel was the defensive player of the game. He registered 17 tackles in the last two games of the season for an 8.5 tackles per game average which would have put him at 102 for the season. I assume this means that Carpenter benefited as much from Schlegel's presence as Schlegel benefited from Carpenters. And, I assume the same is true for Hawk.

1a. You assume that they spend as much time evaluating the guys they think of as second day picks as they do first day picks. Your description of how draft experts evaluate players is accurate as long as your talking about players who they believe going in and who the media focuses on as having first or second round talent. I assume that they do not spend nearly that amount of time on guys who they think, going in, are destined for the 5th round or later. They dont make their reputations on predicting the 3rd -7th rounds but on predicting the first 2. Therefore I assume they spend way more time on those guys than they do on the other.

2a and 3a. Why is this a bigger assumption than yours? Teams change their minds all the time and you are assuming that Tannenbaum didnt contact Schlegel and his agent and give them similar information. Again you assume that the Jets really wanted Gocong on draft day and I assume that they changed their mind.

4a. You assume that the GM and coaches dont know as much as the draft experts, I assume they do. Do both make mistakes, sure. But, again, its too early to write off a player as a mistake based on your assumptions about how the team should have/ or did make their picks.

I'm not attacking your sources, I'm questioning why you feel so confident that your assumptions based on the information you got from them are the definitive when you know as well as I do that the only people who know the motives and logic behind the teams moves are the people who run the team. I'm certainly not positive that my assumptions are correct, nor did I ever say they were. I was just trying to make the point that evaluating the draft at this point is all based on assumptions about the players future and the teams motives when you dont really know either.

[Sperm Edwards]

OK so then we agree that Schlegel was a crappy and/or reach pick. I accept your apology.

[RSJ]

It is way to early to give definitive grades on a draft. Most GM's will tell youi it take 3-4 years to truely grade a draft. Even that can be too short of a time frame. To say D'Brick will never be a great run blocker is premature, ditto other critisisms.

[PeterNorth09]

Gibbon's relentless defense of scrub Anthony Schlegel is really starting to get annoying. The guy is a bum who looked good playing in between AJ Hawk and Bobby Carpenter and now he's being exposed.

Are you just mad that your Suckeyes got raped on national TV by Florida? Troy Smith really did a great job crowning his college career with that choke job!

[RSJ]

Gibbon's relentless defense of scrub Anthony Schlegel is really starting to get annoying. The guy is a bum who looked good playing in between AJ Hawk and Bobby Carpenter and now he's being exposed.

Are you just mad that your Suckeyes got raped on national TV by Florida? Troy Smith really did a great job crowning his college career with that choke job!

1) I'm pretty sure you would have said the same thing about Tom Brady after one season.

2) Can we say the same about your boy Leinart or even Cutler who sucked up the joint last year?

[bitonti]

2) Can we say the same about your boy Leinart or even Cutler who sucked up the joint last year?

you say alot of things that make sense but then comes this. Can you explain exactly how either of these players sucked up the joint? If thats the standard for sucking, Clemens should quit football now.

[jetsrule128]

the Jets had a very good draft last year

lets hope they keep it going this year

2007 THE YEAR OF HOFSTRA

[Gibbon]

OK so then we agree that Schlegel was a crappy and/or reach pick. I accept your apology.

Fine. By the incredibly myopicm fantasy draft, non-football-related-percieved-value-of-a-draft-pick-is-all-that-matters standard that you employed in your original and subsequent post then yes he was a reach.

In the reality based what-matters-is-what-the-player-does-over-the-length-of-his-contract-not-just-the-first-season world its too early to tell.

I didnt know that I had to apologize for contradicting someone, not even a mod.

I hereby humbly submit my apology for daring to contradict the all powerfull and all knowing Sperm Edwards and for making him look bad on his own thread.

[will]

I think contradictions and discussions are the point here in the blogging world.

But to have it out over Schlegel, IMO, is a bit ridiculous. He is a pure run stopper in a league where teams dont run when you want them to. Its not like they can play him on running downs because there is almost no such thing anymore.

Anyway, I'm sure we all hope he works out