1991 SB Giants

[Jet Moses]

It didn't matter whether the QB was Hostetler or Simms, they won the game on defense and running the ball.

[Sperm Edwards]

Both Hoss & Simms were better QB's than Penny. C'mon.

[Jet Moses]

Both Hoss & Simms were better QB's than Penny. C'mon.

True.

Giants running game and defense were also better than any Jets defense/running game since Chad P has bee the QB.

[shawn306]

Both Hoss & Simms were better QB's than Penny. C'mon.

Simms yes

Hostetler : BWHHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAH

[Jet Moses]

Dan Marino was better than all of them, but without that running game or defense, couldn't win a championship. The Dolphins always made the playoffs, only to get blown out.

[Sperm Edwards]

True.

Giants running game and defense were also better than any Jets defense/running game since Chad P has bee the QB.

Giants 1990:

Leading rusher: Anderson 784 yds, 3.5 ypc

Team rushing: 3.79ypc (rank = #24 of 28 in NFL)

Leading receiver: Stephen Baker 541 yds

No doubt about their defense. But if you're going by ranking by points allowed, Jets had the #6 defense last year (lol). Also had the #4 defense in 2004.

Hoss easily would have been a starter well before he went to the Raiders. Problem is he played with Simms & there was no free agency at the time.

Playoff record: 7 passing TD's, 1 rushing TD, 0 interceptions. Who was this against?

1990 Chicago (#9 defense)

1990 49'ers (#2 defense)

1990 Bills (#6 defense)

1993 Broncos (#10 defense)

1993 Bills (#5 defense)

And the great ground games with the '93-'94 Raiders?

1993 Raiders: 3.27ypc

1994 Raiders: 3.53ypc

Hoss did a lot more with a lot less around him on offense & other than injury to Simms wasn't given a chance until he was 32 years old. He certainly never went into training camp as the starter with the Giants. Bad comparison if you ask me. He was just a better QB than Chad. Ugly dude, though.

[Jet Moses]

Giants 1990:

Leading rusher: Anderson 784 yds, 3.5 ypc

Team rushing: 3.79ypc (rank = #24 of 28 in NFL)

Leading receiver: Stephen Baker 541 yds

No doubt about their defense. But if you're going by ranking by points allowed, Jets had the #6 defense last year (lol). Also had the #4 defense in 2004.

Hoss easily would have been a starter well before he went to the Raiders. Problem is he played with Simms & there was no free agency at the time.

Playoff record: 7 passing TD's, 1 rushing TD, 0 interceptions. Who was this against?

1990 Chicago (#9 defense)

1990 49'ers (#2 defense)

1990 Bills (#6 defense)

1993 Broncos (#10 defense)

1993 Bills (#5 defense)

And the great ground games with the '93-'94 Raiders?

1993 Raiders: 3.27ypc

1994 Raiders: 3.53ypc

Hoss did a lot more with a lot less around him on offense & other than injury to Simms wasn't given a chance until he was 32 years old. He certainly never went into training camp as the starter with the Giants. Bad comparison if you ask me. He was just a better QB than Chad. Ugly dude, though.

My intention was never to diss Hostetler.

[Sperm Edwards]

My intention was never to diss Hostetler.

I understand. I'm sure there are better examples. Doug Williams comes to mind. Chad is a better QB than Williams was, at least in the reg season (though in his prime, Williams was more dangerous with his feet). But in the championship game/superbowl he threw 6 TD's to 1 INT. So I'm not sure that's a good example either.

Find a QB who was mediocre (and at times lousy) all season long, & then again in the playoffs, and the team still won a superbowl. Only one I can think of is Dilfer. But the Jets hardly have the 2000 Ravens' OL, a Jamal Lewis/Priest Holmes RB tandem, Sam Gash at FB, and all-time-great defense. He also had a crappy WR corps (to say the least). There was Sharpe at TE and no one else.

Barring a supporting cast like Dilfer had, the QB needs to produce.

[JetsMan57]

The Giants won that year because Leonard Marshall broke Joe Montana in half in the title game.

[Sperm Edwards]

The Giants won that year because Leonard Marshall broke Joe Montana in half in the title game.

Chad would have thrown 1-2 picks & fumbled at least once against that 9'ers defense IN San Fran. Then all off-season we would have heard that the reason we lost is because we don't have Jerry Rice or Sterling Sharpe and a top-10 RB.

[mbn007]

I understand. I'm sure there are better examples. Doug Williams comes to mind. Chad is a better QB than Williams was, at least in the reg season (though in his prime, Williams was more dangerous with his feet). But in the championship game/superbowl he threw 6 TD's to 1 INT. So I'm not sure that's a good example either.

Find a QB who was mediocre (and at times lousy) all season long, & then again in the playoffs, and the team still won a superbowl. Only one I can think of is Dilfer. But the Jets hardly have the 2000 Ravens' OL, a Jamal Lewis/Priest Holmes RB tandem, Sam Gash at FB, and all-time-great defense. He also had a crappy WR corps (to say the least). There was Sharpe at TE and no one else.

Barring a supporting cast like Dilfer had, the QB needs to produce.

85' Bears. Not the greatest Q/B play.

But again, an All-Time defense.

[Sperm Edwards]

85' Bears. Not the greatest Q/B play.

But again, an All-Time defense.

If not THE all-time defense.

And a RB getting 4.8ypc.

And Bortz + Covert + Hilgenberg on the OL.

And since rushing TD's count just as much as passing TD's, McMahon had 18 TD's to 11 INT's in the reg season plus 6 TD's to 0 INT's in the playoffs.

And our WR's are better than the '85 Bears' were. Gault was more dangerous, but not as good of an all-around recever as either Coles or Cotchery. I doubt Chad could make good use of Gault anyway.

[shawn306]

Chad would have thrown 1-2 picks & fumbled at least once against that 9'ers defense IN San Fran. Then all off-season we would have heard that the reason we lost is because we don't have Jerry Rice or Sterling Sharpe and a top-10 RB.

How many TD's did the Giants score that day ?

The Giants won the game mainly because of two things

1) Defense

2) Coaching

[124]

It didn't matter whether the QB was Hostetler or Simms, they won the game on defense and running the ball.

Like I've stated time and time again: If Chad Pennington has a GREAT defense and a Top 5 rushing attack and if he doesn't make stupid mistakes in the playoffs and takes some risks then he too MAY have a chance but we will not have a GREAT defense for a few years and a Top 5 rushing attack is a possibility but our line must grow and we must get a RT who can help against the run more so than the pass. Oh and that little issue of Pennington choking when the game is on the line.

[Sperm Edwards]

How many TD's did the Giants score that day ?

The Giants won the game mainly because of two things

1) Defense

2) Coaching

And how many TD's would the Jets have scored that day (a Jets offense that got shut out twice in the regular season)? With Chad in there, the Giants would have lost despite these two things:

1) Defense

2) Coaching

[JetsMan57]

Chad would have thrown 1-2 picks & fumbled at least once against that 9'ers defense IN San Fran. Then all off-season we would have heard that the reason we lost is because we don't have Jerry Rice or Sterling Sharpe and a top-10 RB.

Just saying the Giants dont beat the Niners if Montana doesnt get hurt.

[L.I.MikeBleedsGreen]

Just saying the Giants dont beat the Niners if Montana doesnt get hurt.

I second that ,Just saying

[Maxman]

Tx has been replaced by Jets fans.

[Sperm Edwards]

Just saying the Giants dont beat the Niners if Montana doesnt get hurt.

Maybe. Montana played pretty much the whole game (and had a good game against a very tough Giants defense). Young came in & threw 1 pass; a 25-yd completion.

So who knows.

[#27TheDominator]

And how many TD's would the Jets have scored that day (a Jets offense that got shut out twice in the regular season)? With Chad in there, the Giants would have lost despite these two things:

1) Defense

2) Coaching

Sperm, the Giants scored zero tds that game. 3 x 5 = 15. I think Chad could have mustered 0 tds. Give me LT and I'll take whatever mid-level qb you want. Craig fumbled at least twice including once on the final drive with the lead and Bahr kicked a boatload of field goals: 28, 42, 46, 38 and 42 yarders. If Doug Brien had done that maybe we wouldn't be sitting here saying Penny couldn't get it done because Jeff Hostetler got shut out on the NFC title game and he "got it done" according to most of your criteria. The Giants won because of defense a lucky ass fake punt and a lights out fg kicker.

[nyjunc]

Both Hoss & Simms were better QB's than Penny. C'mon.

Not really, Chad is as good as Simms but Simms was heading into the twlight of his career and Hoss was ok but nothing special. Chad is better than both of them. Those giant teams won on defense, Chad has never had a dominating D to help him out.

[Maxman]

Sperm, the Giants scored zero tds that game. 3 x 5 = 15. I think Chad could have mustered 0 tds. Give me LT and I'll take whatever mid-level qb you want. Craig fumbled at least twice including once on the final drive with the lead and Bahr kicked a boatload of field goals: 28, 42, 46, 38 and 42 yarders. If Doug Brien had done that maybe we wouldn't be sitting here saying Penny couldn't get it done because Jeff Hostetler got shut out on the NFC title game and he "got it done" according to most of your criteria. The Giants won because of defense a lucky ass fake punt and a lights out fg kicker.

POTW NOM

[Barton]

Different era, slick. No salary cap or plan A free agency. Same goes for the 85' bears, obviously.

[Sperm Edwards]

Sperm, the Giants scored zero tds that game. 3 x 5 = 15. I think Chad could have mustered 0 tds. Give me LT and I'll take whatever mid-level qb you want. Craig fumbled at least twice including once on the final drive with the lead and Bahr kicked a boatload of field goals: 28, 42, 46, 38 and 42 yarders. If Doug Brien had done that maybe we wouldn't be sitting here saying Penny couldn't get it done because Jeff Hostetler got shut out on the NFC title game and he "got it done" according to most of your criteria. The Giants won because of defense a lucky ass fake punt and a lights out fg kicker.

You've got to be kidding me. You think Bahr aided Hoss more than Moss/Tongue aided Chad? lol. If the Jets DID win that game, it was not because of the Chad-led offense - it would have been because the special teams & defense scored two touchdowns. But for those two non-offensive Jets TD's, it's not even a game.

He also managed 0 turnovers & gained a full yard more per pass attempt. Bettis also fumbled away 3-7 points on the Jets' 23 yard line when Pittsburgh was moving the ball with ease. And who were Hoss's WR's & who were Chad's again? And who had better RB's? It was classic Chad, doing less with more.

Hoss led the offense to 15 points. Even IF Brien hit one more FG, Chad led the offense to 6 points. I can't believe you would suggest something so silly.

But it's telling that you think Chad should only measure up nearly-favorably, in 1 isolated game, to a QB you see as a backup worse than he is. Forget about the endzone; it would have been nice if Chad got us into the RED zone even ONCE in 5 quarters of play instead of giving Brien 3 attempts at 42, 43, and 47 in Heinz Field.

I noticed you also glossed over Hostetler's 8 TD's to 0 turnovers in the post-season compared to Chad's 7 TD's to 7 turnovers (each started 5 games).

Lastly, the SF/NYG game was the NFC championship game. Two weeks later they won the SB. Chad has never been to a championship game going into his 8th season. And judging by the position the defense & special teams put the Jets in vs Pittsburgh (scoring two TD's and getting a turnover when Pittsburgh was driving deep in Jets territory), Chad had about every advantage a QB could hope to ask for. Lining up a weak-legged kicker in Heinz field for three 42-47 yd FG attempts in 5 quarters of play is not getting the job done.

[Maxman]

You've got to be kidding me. You think Bahr aided Hoss more than Moss/Tongue aided Chad? lol. If the Jets DID win that game, it was not because of the Chad-led offense - it would have been because the special teams & defense scored two touchdowns. But for those two non-offensive Jets TD's, it's not even a game.

He also managed 0 turnovers & gained a full yard more per pass attempt. Bettis also fumbled away 3-7 points on the Jets' 23 yard line when Pittsburgh was moving the ball with ease. And who were Hoss's WR's & who were Chad's again? And who had better RB's? It was classic Chad, doing less with more.

Hoss led the offense to 15 points. Even IF Brien hit one more FG, Chad led the offense to 6 points. I can't believe you would suggest something so silly.

But it's telling that you think Chad should only measure up nearly-favorably, in 1 isolated game, to a QB you see as a backup worse than he is. Forget about the endzone; it would have been nice if Chad got us into the RED zone even ONCE in 5 quarters of play instead of giving Brien 3 attempts at 42, 43, and 47 in Heinz Field.

I noticed you also glossed over Hostetler's 8 TD's to 0 turnovers in the post-season compared to Chad's 7 TD's to 7 turnovers (each started 5 games).

Lastly, the SF/NYG game was the NFC championship game. Two weeks later they won the SB. Chad has never been to a championship game going into his 8th season. And judging by the position the defense & special teams put the Jets in vs Pittsburgh (scoring two TD's and getting a turnover when Pittsburgh was driving deep in Jets territory), Chad had about every advantage a QB could hope to ask for. Lining up a weak-legged kicker in Heinz field for three 42-47 yd FG attempts in 5 quarters of play is not getting the job done.

POTW NOM

I am officially on both sides of the fence. I can't wait for the rebuttal. I am going to NOM that one as well. Screw Beans. He is overpaid.

[Sperm Edwards]

POTW NOM

I am officially on both sides of the fence. I can't wait for the rebuttal. I am going to NOM that one as well. Screw Beans. He is overpaid.

Maxman = my personal Jesus.

[nyjunc]

You've got to be kidding me. You think Bahr aided Hoss more than Moss/Tongue aided Chad? lol. If the Jets DID win that game, it was not because of the Chad-led offense - it would have been because the special teams & defense scored two touchdowns. But for those two non-offensive Jets TD's, it's not even a game.

He also managed 0 turnovers & gained a full yard more per pass attempt. Bettis also fumbled away 3-7 points on the Jets' 23 yard line when Pittsburgh was moving the ball with ease. And who were Hoss's WR's & who were Chad's again? And who had better RB's? It was classic Chad, doing less with more.

Hoss led the offense to 15 points. Even IF Brien hit one more FG, Chad led the offense to 6 points. I can't believe you would suggest something so silly.

But it's telling that you think Chad should only measure up nearly-favorably, in 1 isolated game, to a QB you see as a backup worse than he is. Forget about the endzone; it would have been nice if Chad got us into the RED zone even ONCE in 5 quarters of play instead of giving Brien 3 attempts at 42, 43, and 47 in Heinz Field.

I noticed you also glossed over Hostetler's 8 TD's to 0 turnovers in the post-season compared to Chad's 7 TD's to 7 turnovers (each started 5 games).

Lastly, the SF/NYG game was the NFC championship game. Two weeks later they won the SB. Chad has never been to a championship game going into his 8th season. And judging by the position the defense & special teams put the Jets in vs Pittsburgh (scoring two TD's and getting a turnover when Pittsburgh was driving deep in Jets territory), Chad had about every advantage a QB could hope to ask for. Lining up a weak-legged kicker in Heinz field for three 42-47 yd FG attempts in 5 quarters of play is not getting the job done.

Again, Chad never had a big time Defense to help him and the Pitt game you refer to was lost b/c our K missed 2 makeable FGs and please do not forget Chad was playing w/ a torn rotator cuff in his throwing shoulder.

[Sperm Edwards]

Again, Chad never had a big time Defense to help him and the Pitt game you refer to was lost b/c our K missed 2 makeable FGs and please do not forget Chad was playing w/ a torn rotator cuff in his throwing shoulder.

Ever growing is the list of things that Chad needs. Being fragile is not always the fault of everyone else except him. All QB's get sacked. All QB's get tackled. All QB's get their arms pulled. They don't all suffer broken capsules & broken wrists. His anti-durability is part of his package (or part of what's missing from his package, depending on one's point of view).

Yeah, if only he had a defense that could keep us in the game despite the offense's futility.

How much more do you ask a defense (AND punt returner) to help him than SCORING TWO TOUCHDOWNS, AND holding Pittsburgh to 17 points at home through 4 quarters of play AND causing a fumble that WE recovered on our own 23 yard-line? A weak-legged kicker also has to kick record-setting FG's at Heinz Field?

But maybe you're right. We should be blaming Herm.

[#27TheDominator]

Hoss led the offense to 15 points. Even IF Brien hit one more FG, Chad led the offense to 6 points. I can't believe you would suggest something so silly.

<snip>

And judging by the position the defense & special teams put the Jets in vs Pittsburgh (scoring two TD's and getting a turnover when Pittsburgh was driving deep in Jets territory), Chad had about every advantage a QB could hope to ask for. Lining up a weak-legged kicker in Heinz field for three 42-47 yd FG attempts in 5 quarters of play is not getting the job done.

Herm, you don't actually think that Chad is worse than Hoss. Hoss lead the offense to 15 points? My ass. With your ability to rationalize Hostetler probably owed the Giants points. Bahr kicked a 38 yard field goal after a 30 yard run by Gary Reasons. Not Jim Brown, not Jerome Bettis, Gary ****ing Reasons. That's 3 points without bringing the ball across the 50 and that was the 2nd shortest field goal. He only got the team inside the 20 once. I can't remember it perfectly (my damn Giant fan cousin relives it for me every few years) but I think Craig spitting it up was good for 6 of those points. Getting the ball back with time running out Hoss managed a monumental drive moving the Giants from their own 43 to get Bahr in place for a 46 yarder. My hero. Sounds just like the drive Penny made at the end of the Steeler game, only coach Einstein managed to sit on the ball while driving it down their throats and Brien missed the kick.

If they had won that game would it have been because of Chad? No, but Chad played the Steelers game needing surgery. A man with a broken chicken arm. My point isn't look how great Pennington is, it's that he is capable of winning. If you don't think so look at this quote:

Hostetler, so nimble on his feet, had another crisp performance for the Giants in only his seventh career start. His passing totals (15 of 27, 176 yards) virtually matched Montana's.

http://home.earthlink.net/~seifertsite/1990games/giants290.html

That's two guys that have won the super bowl. Playing "crisp" football. 61 of Montana's yards came from Taylor burning 67 year old cb Everson Walls. This illustrates two of my points. First Pennington is fully capable of 15-17 and 175 yards. Second, why rush Clemens? A qb making his 7th start in the NFC championship won the super bowl.

[Sperm Edwards]

Herm, you don't actually think that Chad is worse than Hoss. Hoss lead the offense to 15 points? My ass. With your ability to rationalize Hostetler probably owed the Giants points. Bahr kicked a 38 yard field goal after a 30 yard run by Gary Reasons. Not Jim Brown, not Jerome Bettis, Gary ****ing Reasons. That's 3 points without bringing the ball across the 50 and that was the 2nd shortest field goal. He only got the team inside the 20 once. I can't remember it perfectly (my damn Giant fan cousin relives it for me every few years) but I think Craig spitting it up was good for 6 of those points. Getting the ball back with time running out Hoss managed a monumental drive moving the Giants from their own 43 to get Bahr in place for a 46 yarder. My hero. Sounds just like the drive Penny made at the end of the Steeler game, only coach Einstein managed to sit on the ball while driving it down their throats and Brien missed the kick.

If they had won that game would it have been because of Chad? No, but Chad played the Steelers game needing surgery. A man with a broken chicken arm. My point isn't look how great Pennington is, it's that he is capable of winning. If you don't think so look at this quote:

http://home.earthlink.net/~seifertsite/1990games/giants290.html

That's two guys that have won the super bowl. Playing "crisp" football. 61 of Montana's yards came from Taylor burning 67 year old cb Everson Walls. This illustrates two of my points. First Pennington is fully capable of 15-17 and 175 yards. Second, why rush Clemens? A qb making his 7th start in the NFC championship won the super bowl.

So a QB in his 7th career start is better than Pennington. Any more?

And lay off Gary Reasons. He's my dad.

[#27TheDominator]

So a QB in his 7th career start is better than Pennington. Any more?

And lay off Gary Reasons. He's my dad.

He wasn't better until after his 8th career start. When he was the SB champion.

Gary Reasons? I thought you'd be more of a Brad Van Pelt guy. I read this quote about Gary Reasons when I tried to find out his career rushing statistics. (1 carry for 2 yards in the regular season.)

"As a member of the New York Giants Super Bowl winning teams, Gary Reasons will always have a soft spot in my heart. Another in the long line of ugly looking white guys who played for the New York football teams in the 80s (Joe Klecko, Dave Jennings, Marty Lyons, Jeff Hostetler, etc...) Reasons had a fine fine forgotten career.

You poor bastard.

[Sperm Edwards]

Sometimes it skips a generation. Plus I get my good looks from a groupie (Mom). Lucky for me.

[#27TheDominator]

Sometimes it skips a generation. Plus I get my good looks from a groupie (Mom). Lucky for me.

Do you have 14 half brothers from 14 different mothers like Brady's kids will?

[The Troll]

Haven't read the entire thread, so I don't know if anyone has pointed out that the 1990 Giants had absolutely no business winning that Super Bowl because the Bills kicked their ass up and down the field.

So, yeah, maybe if Chad had Lawrence Taylor and got incredibly lucky, maybe he could win a Super Bowl.

[jetophile]

Dan Marino was better than all of them, but without that running game or defense, couldn't win a championship. The Dolphins always made the playoffs, only to get blown out.

This is upsetting? I could rip my pants with joy for the thought of it. As a matter of fact...RIIIIIIIIPPPPPPP (sticks ass way out and splits pants)!