Why do I have this feeling

[pjam76]

If you look at the history of the coaches from the Parcells tree, QB is almost always an after thought. I think we will see improvement this year. The key is the OL, WR's, NT, and another LB. With these areas secure you can win in this league. Like Parcells said, you can;t just dial 1-800-QUARTERBACK. You need to build around a QB's and then coach to his strengths and minimize his weaknesses.

You are right but the Giants won Super Bowls cause they had a HOF defense and a good rushing attack. Phil Simms wasn't exactly a bad QB either. Jeff H had a career year.

With the Patriots, Bledsoe was what, the 1st or 2nd pick in the draft. Maybe Parcells wouldn't go for him, but he was the QB.

BB has Tom Brady. Maybe an afterthought, but he's a HOF QB.

All I know is BB has more Super Bowl wins than Parcells because while the team has been good, Brady is a big reason they win. Parcell's went with a lot of afterthought QB's and wound up losing in the playoffs more than he won. Heck look at the Dallas situation. Maybe if he went with Romo earlier instead of Carter, Henson, and the retired age Bledsoe he would still be around.

All I know is if you look at the super bowl winners and losers over the past 20 or so years, more than half were HOF or pro bowl QB's. If the Jets build a defense like the Ravens or Bears or the Giants HOF defense of yesteryear with a rushing attack that can just jam it down your throat, then I'd say they have a chance. But in todays NFL, it seems teams that can pass win more than those that rely on the run anymore.

[Irish Jet]

I said I wouldn't be surprised if this happened a long time ago. Mangini obviously likes Chad, otherwise he wouldn't have stuck by him for so long and although I also like Chad as a QB I don't want him here next year. We need a fresh start and so does he IMO.

[NIGHT STALKER]

I'm just tired of this whole freaken mess called the NYJs...with Brady just cracking his prime, it's going to be a long time before we pass them...Clemens and Pennington will be long gone by that time. I just want to go back in time...1963 should do it for me and commit myself to another team.

Just when you think we may be turning the corner, we always seem to hit a bump in the road. Unfortunately for Jet fans, our bumps become a decade of misery before they pump us up with a glimmer of hope...then comes that bump again...sucks to be us.

[KINGDIRK]

I have that feelin too. I don't think Clemens is ready yet.

Clemens sat the entire first year. He then sat a good half season in Year 2.

How long is gonna sit for? If he aint ready to be good enough to start on this crappy team, we have a seirous problem at QB.

[fastmover]

If chad is the qb of the jets next year I'm no longer going to be a jets fan.

Please by all means go find another team then!

Semper fi

[fastmover]

I said that before about Chad. KC couldn't beat him out this year and Mangini continued to stick with Chad for half this season even though every fan, media member and who knows what else called for KC to start.

At some point we have to think KC just isn't that good or hasn't impressed this coaching staff that much or this regime just loves Chad soo much. I don't know but so far they brought in Ramsey and KC to win the starting job yet Chad still seems to win the job every preseason. If KC isn't ready next year, I doubt he'll ever be a starting QB for the NY Jets.

+1 I agree complety with that assesment.

Semper fi

[RSJ]

You are right but the Giants won Super Bowls cause they had a HOF defense and a good rushing attack. Phil Simms wasn't exactly a bad QB either. Jeff H had a career year.

With the Patriots, Bledsoe was what, the 1st or 2nd pick in the draft. Maybe Parcells wouldn't go for him, but he was the QB.

BB has Tom Brady. Maybe an afterthought, but he's a HOF QB.

All I know is BB has more Super Bowl wins than Parcells because while the team has been good, Brady is a big reason they win. Parcell's went with a lot of afterthought QB's and wound up losing in the playoffs more than he won. Heck look at the Dallas situation. Maybe if he went with Romo earlier instead of Carter, Henson, and the retired age Bledsoe he would still be around.

All I know is if you look at the super bowl winners and losers over the past 20 or so years, more than half were HOF or pro bowl QB's. If the Jets build a defense like the Ravens or Bears or the Giants HOF defense of yesteryear with a rushing attack that can just jam it down your throat, then I'd say they have a chance. But in todays NFL, it seems teams that can pass win more than those that rely on the run anymore.

I agree that we need to get a better passing game to win no matter what. The current rules dictate this.

[pjam76]

Clemens sat the entire first year. He then sat a good half season in Year 2.

How long is gonna sit for? If he aint ready to be good enough to start on this crappy team, we have a seirous problem at QB.

I agree. Philip Rivers sat for what, 2 years, and look at him now? Look at Eli Manning who started from like week 7 in year one. I wouldn't say Rivers is better cause he sat nor would I say that Manning is better cause he started.

Romo sat for what, 3-4 years, and while he looks like a great QB to be, he still makes the same rookie mistakes he might have made back in year 1 or 2. What is the point in sitting a QB for 3 seasons if by the time he starts he still makes the same rookie mistakes?

In todays NFL, teams don't have 5 years to wait for a QB to get ready. If KC isn't ready to start next season, I doubt he ever will be. It's one thing if he's sitting behind Brett Favre or Brady or Manning. He's sitting behind Chad Pennington. While I like Chad, at this point, if KC can't beat him out for the starting job, who is he going to beat out?

[serphnx]

I agree that we need to get a better passing game to win no matter what. The current rules dictate this.

It's not just the current rules, although I agree they definitely have made passing more viable. But look at the majority of the SB winners, Montana, Aikman, Bradshaw, these were very good QBs. Our very own Joe Willie was a great passer when the rules were slanted against it! Trying to win without a good passing attack/QB is basically hoping on luck. You have to be very good for like 5 years and cross your fingers and hope you win one of those years, and don't even expect to make the playoffs all those years. Just look at the Ravens, Bears and even the Buccs a few years ago. Great defenses, but, at best they each only had one really great year that they won or got to the SB.

But look at the Niners with Montana and the Cowboys with Aikman, they were contenders every year. Manning and Brady are always in the playoff mix and were always a serious threat (or just outright would win the SB).

I want to be a dynasty type team, not a team that has a defense that is talked about but can't even consistently make the playoffs. It doesn't matter what I want though, who knows if we get the QB. I'm just saying that if you do get that QB though, it seems to give you more success than if you can't get him.

[KINGDIRK]

To this point I was vehemently against drafting a QB with our first round pick. But if our best option at #6 is a run stopping LB, would it be smarter to draft a QB like a Matt Ryan or Brohm if Team Brass thinks highly of them.

Looking around the league, you aint going deep into the playoffs without a Top 10 QB.

I HATE the idea of it; however it may make the most sense.

[pjam76]

It's not just the current rules, although I agree they definitely have made passing more viable. But look at the majority of the SB winners, Montana, Aikman, Bradshaw, these were very good QBs. Our very own Joe Willie was a great passer when the rules were slanted against it! Trying to win without a good passing attack/QB is basically hoping on luck. You have to be very good for like 5 years and cross your fingers and hope you win one of those years, and don't even expect to make the playoffs all those years. Just look at the Ravens, Bears and even the Buccs a few years ago. Great defenses, but, at best they each only had one really great year that they won or got to the SB.

But look at the Niners with Montana and the Cowboys with Aikman, they were contenders every year. Manning and Brady are always in the playoff mix and were always a serious threat (or just outright would win the SB).

I want to be a dynasty type team, not a team that has a defense that is talked about but can't even consistently make the playoffs. It doesn't matter what I want though, who knows if we get the QB. I'm just saying that if you do get that QB though, it seems to give you more success than if you can't get him.

It does seem to be the reality of things. Remember the Great 85 Bears defense. They were one and done and a few seasons later they became a team who missed the playoffs for years. Same can be said about the Ravens. And the Bucs had to get a new HC to win a super bowl and then have sucked ever since.

And all those teams had very good running games with good OL.

It might be hard to find a great HOF or all pro QB, but is it really easier to find 11 great defensive players 6-8 of whom are consistent all pros, HOF,s or should be?

In todays NFL with injuries, trades, free agency, and other interests, I'd say it is very hard to keep the same great 8 or 9 defensive players around for 5+ Years. Heck look at the Colts from last year. They had like 2 starters on the defense from last years team at one point. If you depended on the same 7 or 8 great players, your season is shot.

Go look at the Bears. A couple of injuries and suddenly their defense can't win games no more.

And that's the problem with depending on a HOF like Defense and nothing much else. It usually is a one and done kind of year. It's hard to hope the same 11 guys start year in and year out and all 11 have career like years.

To me, it might be hard to find a great HOF QB, but it's not exactly easy finding Ray Lewis, Brian Ulacher's, and 6 or 7 other All Pro defensive players.

Lets say Harris and Revis become All Pro's, well the Jets would still need 6 or 7 other great defensive players. That is just a hard task to do. And it's even harder to keep them year in and year out without injuries.

[Ryno the Jet]

Bradshaw, Montana, Aikman, and Brady all had fantastic defensive units supporting them. To become a dynasty, an organization must truly build a team; solid in every aspect of the game.

[pjam76]

Bradshaw, Montana, Aikman, and Brady all had fantastic defensive units supporting them. To become a dynasty, an organization must truly build a team; solid in every aspect of the game.

We can't even count Bradshaw, Montana, and Aikman in these arguments anymore though. That was pre salary cap and heck, free agency wasn't even as big as it was now. At least not as crazy with players switching teams every few years.

Yeah you have to build a great team but one constant on teams like the Pats and Colts have been Brady and Manning. Even when those QB's have bad games, there is something about them that players just feel like they always have a chance.

Nobody thinks Chad or KC give the Jets that kind of chance after a 2-3 interception performance.

While you need a good team, if you have an avg QB it means you need to have a HOF defense. Having a defense with 6 -8 ALL pro defensive players is far more difficult than it is to finding one great QB. Both situations are difficult, but trying to find 1 great player isn't as hard as trying to find 7 or 8.

[serphnx]

Bradshaw, Montana, Aikman, and Brady all had fantastic defensive units supporting them. To become a dynasty, an organization must truly build a team; solid in every aspect of the game.

Ok, but how does that change that they had the QBs, and that defenses without the QBs don't have dynasties?

[pjam76]

Ok, but how does that change that they had the QBs, and that defenses without the QBs don't have dynasties?

The reality is if you have a great QB and lose this season, you can improve and hope to compete again next season. If you have an all time great defense and lose, you have to hope all 11 players plus the backups return next season. That is hoping for a lot.

The Colts had 2 players starting from last seasons defense at one point this year. The Bears had quite a few injuries on defense. The Colts wound up 13-3 in a tougher division and conference while the Bears struggled all year long and finished with a losing record. In todays NFL where the avg number of injuries per team is 9 per year, you are asking for a lot to hope year in and year out you have the same 8-11 great defensive players. Especially in a league that wants the QB's to never get tackled anymore.

[shodan9999]

just upgrade the offensive line so we can get kellen protection

that is where you start...it will also help our running game...

[pjam76]

that is where you start...it will also help our running game...

It should not be hard to improve the OL. Bring in 2 good players and there should be an immediate upgrade. The problem is that was the same problem last offseason.

I don't think fixing the OL fixes the offense though. The WR just can't get open and TJ really isn't a playmaker. Without having any real playmakers you have an offense that just kicks Field Goals. Last year the offense stunk and the running game sucked but the running backs still scored 16 times. Without any real playmakers, you have a team who hopes to win 13-10 every week. Great if you have the best defense in the NFL, not so great if your defense is just a top 10 defense. Even worse if the defense is middle of the pack.

[124]

Jerricho Cotchery is a playmaker in terms of his ability to create some big yardage after the catch. Sure he is not going to beat you deep 40 yards down the field, but he can take a 10 or 15 yard slant and turn it into a 35 or 40 yard gain.

Leon Washington is also a playmaker, but for some reason this season he was just not given the ball enough. Next season, even if we are able to upgrade the Offensive Line, we need to see less of Thomas Jones and more of Washington. You never know whats going to happen when the ball is in his hands.

I believe we do need to get a deep threat in this offense (unless Pennington retains the job because at that point it would be useless to have a deep threat), and that threat could come in form of D.J. Hackett, Bernard Berrian or perhaps, from within, with Chansi Stuckey.

[pjam76]

Jerricho Cotchery is a playmaker in terms of his ability to create some big yardage after the catch. Sure he is not going to beat you deep 40 yards down the field, but he can take a 10 or 15 yard slant and turn it into a 35 or 40 yard gain.

Leon Washington is also a playmaker, but for some reason this season he was just not given the ball enough. Next season, even if we are able to upgrade the Offensive Line, we need to see less of Thomas Jones and more of Washington. You never know whats going to happen when the ball is in his hands.

I believe we do need to get a deep threat in this offense (unless Pennington retains the job because at that point it would be useless to have a deep threat), and that threat could come in form of D.J. Hackett, Bernard Berrian or perhaps, from within, with Chansi Stuckey.

Stuckey is a pipe dream at this point. Cotchery is a nice wR, but he's more the 3rd threat than anything else. Look at the games without Coles around. He put up nice numbers, but they couldn't score. Playmakers find ways to score and get open. Cotchery and Coles need a guy like Chad Johnson to become to talent. With a lineup of Johnson, Coles, Cotchery and Smith Washington there might a chance to score points. But if Coles leaves and they are stuck with Cotchery, JMack, and Smith, I doubt they score many tDs.

[JETS11269]

Let me ask you something, if you are the HC of this team, what would you do?

Build up an effective offensive line, draft some recievers, and give both QBs a chance to perform with better talent surrounding them.

[124]

Stuckey is a pipe dream at this point. Cotchery is a nice wR, but he's more the 3rd threat than anything else. Look at the games without Coles around. He put up nice numbers, but they couldn't score. Playmakers find ways to score and get open. Cotchery and Coles need a guy like Chad Johnson to become to talent. With a lineup of Johnson, Coles, Cotchery and Smith Washington there might a chance to score points. But if Coles leaves and they are stuck with Cotchery, JMack, and Smith, I doubt they score many tDs.

You seriously need to put down the pipe today man.

A receiving core of Ocho Cinco, LC and Cothcery MIGHT score? Are you kidding me? That would be one of the best receiving trios in the NFL.

And of course Cotchery couldn't do it on his own. Do you believe he's Steve Smith? Of course not, so he cannot do it on his own. He's not a Top 5 NFL Wide Receiver, but you don't need a Top 5 receiver to win either. When your options after Coles & Cotchery are McCareins, Smith and Wright, what do you expect? The Jets have a good starting receiving core in Coles & Cotchery, but their depth is one of the worst in the NFL.

Right now, the Jets have two possession receivers, one who is one of the best at YAC in Cotchery. If being able to turn a 10 or 15 yard play into a 40 yard play isn't something a playmaker can do, then I seriously would like to know what your opinion of a playmaker is.

They don't need Chad Johnson to be successful. They put up 10 wins just fine last season with a much better Offensive Line and a Pennington that wasn't tossing around 4th quarter interceptions like they were going out of style.

Give this team a more successful line and a threat like Bernard Berrian or D.J. Hackett and drop Justin McCareins, and this offense will produce just fine. That is, if Pennington isn't the Quarterback. If Chad is the QB, a Berrian or Hackett would be a waste and it would be better suited to pick up another Tight End to go along with Chris Baker.

[pjam76]

You seriously need to put down the pipe today man.

A receiving core of Ocho Cinco, LC and Cothcery MIGHT score? Are you kidding me? That would be one of the best receiving trios in the NFL.

And of course Cotchery couldn't do it on his own. Do you believe he's Steve Smith? Of course not, so he cannot do it on his own. He's not a Top 5 NFL Wide Receiver, but you don't need a Top 5 receiver to win either. When your options after Coles & Cotchery are McCareins, Smith and Wright, what do you expect? The Jets have a good starting receiving core in Coles & Cotchery, but their depth is one of the worst in the NFL.

Right now, the Jets have two possession receivers, one who is one of the best at YAC in Cotchery. If being able to turn a 10 or 15 yard play into a 40 yard play isn't something a playmaker can do, then I seriously would like to know what your opinion of a playmaker is.

They don't need Chad Johnson to be successful. They put up 10 wins just fine last season with a much better Offensive Line and a Pennington that wasn't tossing around 4th quarter interceptions like they were going out of style.

Give this team a more successful line and a threat like Bernard Berrian or D.J. Hackett and drop Justin McCareins, and this offense will produce just fine. That is, if Pennington isn't the Quarterback. If Chad is the QB, a Berrian or Hackett would be a waste and it would be better suited to pick up another Tight End to go along with Chris Baker.

That's the problem. If Chad is still here, Coles and Cotchery aren't going to get the job done. Yeah they won 10 games last season, they won 4 this season. As far as KC goes, who knows. We don't know what kind of QB he is. At this point all we know is he throws almost 2 picks a game and not many TDs. Blame the OL, blame the running game, blame injuries to the WR's, but regardless we don't know if he can throw TDs or not. So far all we can go on is he throws a lot of picks for a guy who isn't throwing TDs.

And we don't know if Coles is coming back or not. I doubt they think the WR position is a top priority this offseason. They need to go after at least 2 OL, some DL, another CB, maybe a LB and then look at the WR..

And even if Coles is here, the guy seems to be getting injured more often these days.

My wish would be to see Johnson, Coles, Cotchery, Smith next season. YOu can call it a pipe dream that the Jets get Chad Johnson but at the same time my pipe dream is just as much a pipe dream as your wish that Stuckey become a great WR.

[Irish Jet]

Stuckey is a pipe dream at this point. Cotchery is a nice wR, but he's more the 3rd threat than anything else. Look at the games without Coles around. He put up nice numbers, but they couldn't score. Playmakers find ways to score and get open. Cotchery and Coles need a guy like Chad Johnson to become to talent. With a lineup of Johnson, Coles, Cotchery and Smith Washington there might a chance to score points. But if Coles leaves and they are stuck with Cotchery, JMack, and Smith, I doubt they score many tDs.

I actually totally disagree with your points on JC. He is a very good #2 and IMO could make a decent #1 if he was in the right offence.

He had some decent showings there towards the end of the season and I really think the hand injury he sustained may have played a big part in his small slump.

[124]

I actually totally disagree with your points on JC. He is a very good #2 and IMO could make a decent #1 if he was in the right offence.

He had some decent showings there towards the end of the season and I really think the hand injury he sustained may have played a big part in his small slump.

Yep. The hand injury that forced him to miss a game, limit him in a couple of others, and he still had 1,100+ yards receiving while working with two completely different Quarterbacks. Solid season from JC.

[pjam76]

I actually totally disagree with your points on JC. He is a very good #2 and IMO could make a decent #1 if he was in the right offence.

He had some decent showings there towards the end of the season and I really think the hand injury he sustained may have played a big part in his small slump.

I just don't see it.. Cotchery does not look like a #1 WR in th NFL. Yeah maybe on the Jets, but he just isn't in the same category as a Johnson, Moss, TO, Harrison, Smith, heck he's not even Reggie Wayne. That is what I consider a #1 WR. A guy who other teams have to plan around.

Nobody plans around Cotchery. He might be able to be a decent #2 if he improves, but I just don't see other teams going out of their way to prepare for him. And to me, that's what a playmaker is, that's what a #1 WR is. A guy who other teams fear, double team, and still really can't stop.

[pjam76]

Yep. The hand injury that forced him to miss a game, limit him in a couple of others, and he still had 1,100+ yards receiving while working with two completely different Quarterbacks. Solid season from JC.

He had a solid season but Yards mean little if you can't score. TJ had over 1000 yards rushing but nobody is saying he had a great year.

I remember Keyshawn had a 100 reception season but never could score. Catching a lot of balls and putting up yards is nice for contracts and for the stats, but if you can't score TDs, it really doesn't matter much unless of course somebody else on the team can score. AKA why the Jets couldn't score. Playmakers find ways to score TDs. They don't just find ways to rack up meaningless yards in a 4-12 season.

[124]

Players cannot score if they're not given the opportunities to score. Schottenheimer got way, way too conservative in the red zone, or the Jets, unlike past years, turned the ball over.

[JohnnyLV]

That is why Chad is staying. Because love him or not he can buy another year for this regime by going 9-7 or 10-6. I don't think a championship game is a requirement. I think they will try to improve everything else on offense and let the QB who has the best camp start.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest Chad could lead us to 9-7 or 10-6.

Here are the facts:

1. Chad did not beat out Kellen THIS preseason

2. Chad played so poorly that he lost his job

3. When Chad got back in after Kellen's injury, he was terrible

4. Kellen was better than Chad even as bad as he was

The is no way Chad could beat out Kellen in TC> The Jets are just trying to generate trade interest.

[pjam76]

There is nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest Chad could lead us to 9-7 or 10-6.

Here are the facts:

1. Chad did not beat out Kellen THIS preseason

2. Chad played so poorly that he lost his job

3. When Chad got back in after Kellen's injury, he was terrible

4. Kellen was better than Chad even as bad as he was

The is no way Chad could beat out Kellen in TC> The Jets are just trying to generate trade interest.

um Chad started the first half of the season so if he didn't beat out KC in training camp, what does that say about KC that he sat for half the season?

I agree that with this squad, Chad just can't win. But it's not like KC was any better. Neither QB got points for the offense except against the Dolphins and both QB's seemed to turn the ball over far too much.

But wasn't Chad the QB last season when they went 10-6 with a supposedly worse team?

[Arsis]

um Chad started the first half of the season so if he didn't beat out KC in training camp, what does that say about KC that he sat for half the season?

I agree that with this squad, Chad just can't win. But it's not like KC was any better. Neither QB got points for the offense except against the Dolphins and both QB's seemed to turn the ball over far too much.

But wasn't Chad the QB last season when they went 10-6 with a supposedly worse team?

kc was better, he won 3 games as opposed to 1 game from chad. Kellen also playes most of his games without either coles or cotch. His first playing expierence, behind a ****ty 0-line, with ****ty play calling, with only ****ty back-up receivers and he wins more games than the veteran chad.

[Irish Jet]

There is nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest Chad could lead us to 9-7 or 10-6.

Here are the facts:

1. Chad did not beat out Kellen THIS preseason

2. Chad played so poorly that he lost his job

3. When Chad got back in after Kellen's injury, he was terrible

4. Kellen was better than Chad even as bad as he was

The is no way Chad could beat out Kellen in TC> The Jets are just trying to generate trade interest.

1. Chad didn't have to, he was the starter from the word go.

2. True

3. He was good vs New England in horrible conditions and had he not have been in a terrible situation and had J-Mac have made some catches we could have won the game.

4. You can't be ****ing serious.

[Irish Jet]

kc was better, he won 3 games as opposed to 1 game from chad. Kellen also playes most of his games without either coles or cotch. His first playing expierence, behind a ****ty 0-line, with ****ty play calling, with only ****ty back-up receivers and he wins more games than the veteran chad.

LOL, Clemens won because the D stepped up in the 2nd half of the season.

[kobe24jets]

chad=1 win

kc11=3 wins

kc11>chad just accept it

but we dont have 2 worry bout it cuz andre is gonna beat both of them out

[Irish Jet]

chad=1 win

kc11=3 wins

kc11>chad just accept it

but we dont have 2 worry bout it cuz andre is gonna beat both of them out

Please stop posting in the football forum. It's painful.

[4HCrew]

I do not think Kellen showed enough to beat out Chad, so I guess have to hope he gets his sh$t together in the offseason. The offensive line is to blame for alot of things, but not for a qb who is scared to throw down field and prefers to check down on every play until he is down by 10.