piney Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 AL vs NL does not carry that much creedance, as KROD is never going to face a pitcher. Rivera has given up a hit an inning. That cancels out the walks. The WHIP are the same. Rodriguez has a much better ERA. Rivera has given up 6 homers. Again I ask you the question-If Blown Saves are not the biggest criteria to measure a closer, what is? AL-NL is still a consideration because K-rod will face bottom of the line-up guys that are weaker hitters than bottom of the line-up guys in the AL (in most case almost 40 points weaker). So to tell me facing a number 8 or 9 hitter from say the Tigers is more difficult than say the Braves. A 280 hitter is better than a 240 hitter...right? So differential is not only based on facing a pitcher or not but the make-up of the entire line-up and bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious89x Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 AL vs NL does not carry that much creedance, as KROD is never going to face a pitcher. Rivera has given up a hit an inning. That cancels out the walks. The WHIP are the same. Rodriguez has a much better ERA. Rivera has given up 6 homers. Again I ask you the question-If Blown Saves are not the biggest criteria to measure a closer, what is? Considering you like to call Yankee Stadium a bandbox... I wonder how many of the HR's are at home? And please dont' forget the Mets play in a pitchers park. K-Rod has been better... not light years better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 AL-NL is still a consideration because K-rod will face bottom of the line-up guys that are weaker hitters than bottom of the line-up guys in the AL (in most case almost 40 points weaker). So to tell me facing a number 8 or 9 hitter from say the Tigers is more difficult than say the Braves. A 280 hitter is better than a 240 hitter...right? So differential is not only based on facing a pitcher or not but the make-up of the entire line-up and bench. Your numbers are WAY overblown AL BA average .267 average runs/team is 254 NL BA average .259 average runs/team is 236 (these numbers are WITH the pitcher, which Rodriguez would never see). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piney Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 The WHIP is the same. Saves are not more important, as one reliever will have more opportunities. Was Rodriguez the best last year based on # alone? I would give it to Lidge. What about ERA? ERA is big but not as great of a representation of a pitchers effectiveness as WHIP. ERA can be subject to defense and official scoring decisions. Overall WHIP would be the key, and with .01 the difference between an AL pitcher and a NL pitcher the edge goes to the AL pitcher based on the difficulty of the line-up. Whip can really tell you how hard a pitcher had to work. I would still say Rivera was better than Lidge in 2008 based on the numbers. Yes Rivera had 1 blown save in 2008 to Lidge's 0 but his whip of .67 in the AL compared to Lidge 1.95 in the NL is a telling stat. Walks are the worst thing a pitcher can do..Rivera walked 6 batters in 2008, Lidge 35..that is a huge difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 Considering you like to call Yankee Stadium a bandbox... I wonder how many of the HR's are at home? And please dont' forget the Mets play in a pitchers park. K-Rod has been better... not light years better. Agreed on all fronts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piney Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Your numbers are WAY overblown AL BA average .267 average runs/team is 254 NL BA average .259 average runs/team is 236 (these numbers are WITH the pitcher, which Rodriguez would never see). my numbers are the number 7,8, and 9 batters, not the entire line-up I was just comparing the weakest part of both line-ups. Again, when all is said and done, with the different parks they play in and leagues, Rivera statistical numbers are better than K-rods, and they were better last year too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 my numbers are the number 7,8, and 9 batters, not the entire line-up I was just comparing the weakest part of both line-ups. Again, when all is said and done, with the different parks they play in and leagues, Rivera statistical numbers are better than K-rods, and they were better last year too. First, I never said anything about last year, so take that off the table. Perfect is better than being imperfect in relievers NUMBER ONE CHORE-Close out a game when called upon. The rest is superflous. A reliever can face any part of a line-up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piney Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 First, I never said anything about last year, so take that off the table. Perfect is better than being imperfect in relievers NUMBER ONE CHORE-Close out a game when called upon. The rest is superflous. A reliever can face any part of a line-up I am using last year because based on your logic Brian Wilson was a better closer than K-rod..which is ridiculous. Last year Wilson had 6 blown saves K-rod had 7..so to you, Wilson was better than K-rod. A difference of one, which to you, based on your argument here, is basis enough to make that determination. 1 blown save is not enough to base who is the better closer...it is really that simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 I am using last year because based on your logic Brian Wilson was a better closer than K-rod..which is ridiculous. Last year Wilson had 6 blown saves K-rod had 7..so to you, Wilson was better than K-rod. A difference of one, which to you, based on your argument here, is basis enough to make that determination. 1 blown save is not enough to base who is the better closer...it is really that simple If you look at Blown saves, you also have to look at opportunity, and the percentage of blown saves, to opportunities. Again, my equation was in NY this season. You are going off the reservation. Another question? Which defense is better-Yankees or Mets? Would that help Mariano? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piney Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 If you look at Blown saves, you also have to look at opportunity, and the percentage of blown saves, to opportunities. Again, my equation was in NY this season. You are going off the reservation. Another question? Which defense is better-Yankees or Mets? Would that help Mariano? how am I going off the reservation, you presented an argument and I am using stats from previous seasons to show you the flaws in your argument. Blown saves is simply not enough of a stat to base the opinion of who is better, and again, I think when all is said and done, statistically, RIvera has been better than K-rod. Would a better defense help Rivera..sure, but then you have to look at individual games, have the Mets committed any errors during the season when K-rod was in the game? What about the Yankees and Rivera? Is Jeters limited range more damning than say the Mets SS range? Again, taking everything into account, a 1.02 whip in the AL is better than a 1.01 whip in the NL. in conclusion your argument is flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 how am I going off the reservation, you presented an argument and I am using stats from previous seasons to show you the flaws in your argument. Blown saves is simply not enough of a stat to base the opinion of who is better, and again, I think when all is said and done, statistically, RIvera has been better than K-rod. Would a better defense help Rivera..sure, but then you have to look at individual games, have the Mets committed any errors during the season when K-rod was in the game? What about the Yankees and Rivera? Is Jeters limited range more damning than say the Mets SS range? Again, taking everything into account, a 1.02 whip in the AL is better than a 1.01 whip in the NL. in conclusion your argument is flawed. You are the only Yankee fan in this thread defending the Mo stats,while there are others within this thread that admit to the slight Krod advantage, so I would say you are fighting a lone battle. You claim that I need to look at individual games to see when errors are committed, yet you want to use batting average, but did you look at individual batters each pitcher faced, and what were their averages? You seem to want to create new rules all along in this game, but not follow them when it comes to your points. That flaws your argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piney Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 You are the only Yankee fan in this thread defending the Mo stats,while there are others within this thread that admit to the slight Krod advantage, so I would say you are fighting a lone battle. You claim that I need to look at individual games to see when errors are committed, you you want to use batting average, but did you look at individual batters each pitcher faced, and what were their averages? You seem to want to create new rules all along in this game, but not follow them when it comes to your points. not really,you were the one to suddenly involve defense to try and help bolster your argument. The fact that I am the only one arguing the point has no real merit to this debate. I am simply looking at the overall stats and not some superfluous HR total or the difference of one blown save. You are basing your entire argument one one stat, which is one blown save. That simply does not illustrate the full comparison of which pitcher is having the better season so far. My entire point is simply to illustrate that fact. Statistically I do however think Rivera has been the better pitcher. That really is secondary to my original point that using the one blown save as the sole measuring stick is a flawed argument. Unless you think Wilson was better than K-rod last year as well.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 not really,you were the one to suddenly involve defense to try and help bolster your argument. The fact that I am the only one arguing the point has no real merit to this debate. I am simply looking at the overall stats and not some superfluous HR total or the difference of one blown save. You are basing your entire argument one one stat, which is one blown save. That simply does not illustrate the full comparison of which pitcher is having the better season so far. My entire point is simply to illustrate that fact. Statistically I do however think Rivera has been the better pitcher. That really is secondary to my original point that using the one blown save as the sole measuring stick is a flawed argument. Unless you think Wilson was better than K-rod last year as well.... I have used: Whip-equal ERA-Better Blown Saves-Better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piney Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I have used: Whip-equal ERA-Better Blown Saves-Better right, but you discount the differential.... WHIP is universally reknowned as the best measuring tool for pitchers, and Rivera's is .01 worse than K-rod, and with the differential is actually better than K-rod...there are a few differentials to take into account between them, Park size and AL/NL (which agreed is not as high as if they were starters). ERA is a tricky stat, but WHIP is a great barometer of which pitcher is pitching better, and Walks are probably more important than hits, along with K/9 So, Rivera has less walsk and more K/9 which are telling stats for pitchers, he is in essence giving batter less of a chance to reach base than K-rod is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 hey Piney, don't bother using logic with dierking...it goes by like a Mariano cutter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piney Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I keep trying to find out who has let inherited runners score more but I can't find it anywhere!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 right, but you discount the differential.... WHIP is universally reknowned as the best measuring tool for pitchers, and Rivera's is .01 worse than K-rod, and with the differential is actually better than K-rod...there are a few differentials to take into account between them, Park size and AL/NL (which agreed is not as high as if they were starters). ERA is a tricky stat, but WHIP is a great barometer of which pitcher is pitching better, and Walks are probably more important than hits, along with K/9 So, Rivera has less walsk and more K/9 which are telling stats for pitchers, he is in essence giving batter less of a chance to reach base than K-rod is. Explain how a walk is more deadly than a hit, particularly if we established that their WHIps are relatively the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious89x Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 piney, I ain't defening SD... but Frankie is known for walking guys and making you sweat. He gets the job done but that's his MO, always has been always will. Just like Mo gives up bloop hits. What's scary about Mo this year is he's been hit HARD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piney Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Explain how a walk is more deadly than a hit, particularly if we established that their WHIps are relatively the same. it has nothing to do with more deadly or not, it has to do with accountability, and pitchers can be much more accountable for walking a batter than a hit because hits are sometimes subject to official scorers. No one rules if a walk is a walk but an error can sometimes be ruled a hit and vice-versa.. if you want to talk about which is more deadly, a walk is always more deadly, because you don't give you teammates a chance to defend against a ball in play which has a better than 70% chance of being caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piney Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 piney, I ain't defening SD... but Frankie is known for walking guys and making you sweat. He gets the job done but that's his MO, always has been always will. Just like Mo gives up bloop hits. What's scary about Mo this year is he's been hit HARD. two things it doesn't change the fact that K-rods walks can be used against him. You don't discount a walk because, well, the guy always walks people. Mo was hit hard early last year too....and then turned in arguably his best year statistically. The reports of Mo's demise are greatly exaggerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 I keep trying to find out who has let inherited runners score more but I can't find it anywhere!! Rivera 4 RI, 2 scored Rodriguez 2 RI, 1 scored Nothing there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious89x Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 two things it doesn't change the fact that K-rods walks can be used against him. You don't discount a walk because, well, the guy always walks people. Mo was hit hard early last year too....and then turned in arguably his best year statistically. The reports of Mo's demise are greatly exaggerated. You discount a walk if the dude is one of the best in the game and it almost doesn't matter. You count a walk if the guy puts people on and gives it up. I know where you're coming from and Mo is still one of the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 You discount a walk if the dude is one of the best in the game and it almost doesn't matter. You count a walk if the guy puts people on and gives it up. I know where you're coming from and Mo is still one of the best. Agreed. Vic, you and I are like of one mind. Joined at the hip as it were. Or, you may give up a walk, if you want to set up a force. Not likely often,in a save situation, but a possibility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piney Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Agreed. Vic, you and I are like of one mind. Joined at the hip as it were. Or, you may give up a walk, if you want to set up a force. Not likely often,in a save situation, but a possibility that would be an IBB..not a walk... unless now you want to say that Krod pitches around batters more than any other pitcher. how about ERA+ WTF is that!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 that would be an IBB..not a walk... unless now you want to say that Krod pitches around batters more than any other pitcher. how about ERA+ WTF is that!!! Not always on the IBB, but I agree that the times a closer does this is minimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Explain how a park may be "inferior" based on number of seats? The number of seats in Citi field isn't what makes it inferior. The overall offering is what makes it inferior. Having been to both, I can definitely tell you that Yankee stadium is the superior stadium. It's not a personal attack if it's true You don't "know" blackout so it is a personal attack. It is quite possible that someone wouldn't hire his internet persona but we have no idea what he is like in real life. For example in real life, you are probably a nice guy. Although there would be no way to prove that from what we read here. Describe "win so much". Like within the last 8 years? Yes I mentioned there was a drought. The Yankees set the bar pretty high so 8 years is a long time for them to not win. Looks like they will correct that this year. I never said anything about "pens". I said closer and said "set-up" I thought it newsworthy, as over the last 13 years or so, this has been an area dominated by the Yankees. Or, are newsworthy notes not allowed on this site? Cheap imitations are not allowed to be topical? Topical is fine. We all know that the first two months of a baseball season are really the most important anyway. The Mets pen (sorry closer and set up guy) being good now definitely means they won't choke again come September. Although the Mets would have to get into first place this year before they could actually choke it away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 AL vs NL does not carry that much creedance, as KROD is never going to face a pitcher. Rivera has given up a hit an inning. That cancels out the walks. The WHIP are the same. Rodriguez has a much better ERA. Rivera has given up 6 homers. Again I ask you the question-If Blown Saves are not the biggest criteria to measure a closer, what is? Blown saves is a very bug stat for closers imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 For example in real life, you are probably a nice guy. Although there would be no way to prove that from what we read here. See, that is where you would be wrong yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbn007 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Hard to believe this topic is still going strong!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 See, that is where you would be wrong yet again. Okay fair enough. I am going to one of your little league games and I am going to report on what a tyrant you really are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piney Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Perfect is better than being imperfect in relievers NUMBER ONE CHORE-Close out a game when called upon. The rest is superflous. well...not perfect anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 LOL @ DIERKING hilarious irony here - a blown save that the pitcher had no control over (besides letting Jeter on base and steal one and walking Tex out of FEAR) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergen Jet Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I guess Mo was done after all ...and the Bobby Parnell thing worked out. Best setup man in NY baseball.... Very Joba like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Phil Hughes is "Joba"esque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 THREAD UPDATES mariano: 1.96 ERA, 0.891 WHIP, 46 IP, 50 K, 31 saves friscco rodriguez: 2.39 ERA, 1.245 WHIP, 49 IP, 50 K, 24 saves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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