Jets - Mangold agree to contract

[rillo]

So, 22-25M in guarantees for Mangold?

[dbatesman]

I don't get why the Revisites get so worked up about his compensation but then don't say anything about David Harris. Because of his draft position Harris has been paid less than Mangold, Revis, D'brick. I'm too lazy to check but I bet those three have made more in single years than Harris has made over his entire contract. If your going to take a players side take Harris' side for every single possible reason. But no, instead we have to carry around homemade signs saying Justice For Revis!

Harris is the least valuable and most easily replaceable of the four. Drew Coleman's a good soldier too.

[DireJet38]

Nick deserved to become the highest paid center in the league.

Thank God Al Davis didn't draft Jason Brown/own the Rams.

[JoeC36]

this made my night last night. im was glad to see that they took care of him.

[SMC]

There's no fallacy outside of your need to use the word.

I have never once disputed the 10/$160 "demand," and yet you feel the need to bring it up to me 160,000,000 times as if I didn't hear you the first time. I am fully aware of it.

I continue to believe that it's a negotiating stance, just as Tannenbaum's refusal to discuss guarantees before total compensation is decided is a negotiating stance. Why you believe that either of those positions is written in stone continues to stagger me. These people are engaged in negotiations, and have dug into hard positions waiting for the other to blink. Both sides need to soften their stance if anything is going to get done.

I'll believe that Revis' $16/year stance is an actual non-negotiable demand when he either gets it or never plays football again. Until then, it's negotiation.

The $16 mil a negotiation stance? Team Revis has kept that stance for SIX MONTHS. Sorry, but nobody maintains a "negotiating stance" that long. It's a demand, a prime concern. That's why there had not been any movement. Tannenbaum explained that stuff, but, of course, you discount that.

Plus, the point is that the only way there would be movement is if Revis got off that $16 mil demand. If he sticks to it he won't play football.

Further, I never said that either position was written in stone. But there is a difference between negotiating stance, standard negotiating procedure, and primary goal. Tanny's standard negotiating procedure is agreeing to total contract first (like they did with DBrick & Mangold, which you discount) and Team Revis' primary goal is getting $16 mil per. A negotiating stance is demand high and work down. If you never work down (like Team Revis failed to do), then it's not a negotiating stance.

[THE ILK]

The $16 mil a negotiation stance? Team Revis has kept that stance for SIX MONTHS. Sorry, but nobody maintains a "negotiating stance" that long. It's a demand, a prime concern. That's why there had not been any movement. Tannenbaum explained that stuff, but, of course, you discount that.

Plus, the point is that the only way there would be movement is if Revis got off that $16 mil demand. If he sticks to it he won't play football.

Further, I never said that either position was written in stone. But there is a difference between negotiating stance, standard negotiating procedure, and primary goal. Tanny's standard negotiating procedure is agreeing to total contract first (like they did with DBrick & Mangold, which you discount) and Team Revis' primary goal is getting $16 mil per. A negotiating stance is demand high and work down. If you never work down (like Team Revis failed to do), then it's not a negotiating stance.

Stop, you are making way too much sense!

[Aten]

Tanny's standard negotiating procedure is agreeing to total contract first

I don't think there's any reason to think that this is actually true, but even if it is, any such agreement is obviously meaningless until and unless the guarantees and the first three years are worked out.

[THE ILK]

I don't think there's any reason to think that this is actually true, but even if it is, any such agreement is obviously meaningless until and unless the guarantees and the first three years are worked out.

Well if Team Revis would not come off the $16/$160 and the Jets see that as out of the question, then they could never get that far anyway.

[Aten]

Well if Team Revis would not come off the $16/$160 and the Jets see that as out of the question, then they could never get that far anyway.

Of course they could. It's as easy as backloading the deal. The total compensation thing is really no different than one side or the other insisting that no further terms will be discussed until they come to an agreement on the uniform number the player will wear.

[THE ILK]

Of course they could. It's as easy as backloading the deal. The total compensation thing is really no different than one side or the other insisting that no further terms will be discussed until they come to an agreement on the uniform number the player will wear.

If Revis is demanding $16 per for 10 years and he wouldn't budge, how exactly to you back-load the deal?

[Aten]

If Revis is demanding $16 per for 10 years and he wouldn't budge, how exactly to you back-load the deal?

You do understand that 16 per over ten years doesn't mean 16 each year, right?

[DireJet38]

Of course they could. It's as easy as backloading the deal. The total compensation thing is really no different than one side or the other insisting that no further terms will be discussed until they come to an agreement on the uniform number the player will wear.

Exactly.

Put the higher annual sums toward the end of the contract, which he's less likely to reach.

Again, I think this whole "total compensation" is a smokescreen while these two parties work out guaranteed money.

[THE ILK]

You do understand that 16 per over ten years doesn't mean 16 each year, right?

Even so, what makes you think he'd go for a back loaded deal?

And he wants the $16.2 now, not later.

If you give it to him for a few years then have it drop and then back load it, he's just going to take the guaranteed money and big few years and hold out, yet again.

[Klecko73isGod]

If Revis is demanding $16 per for 10 years and he wouldn't budge, how exactly to you back-load the deal?

16 bucks for 10 years and Tanny won't pay him!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[Aten]

Again, I think this whole "total compensation" is a smokescreen while these two parties work out guaranteed money.

Of course it is.

MT: Okay, so here's what we're offering. Minimum salaries over the first six years, then a balloon payment of about 50M in year 7.

NM: I was thinking more along the lines of a 20M bonus and then salary raises at the standard rate.

MT: Too bad, because that's not what we're offering.

NM: I guess I'm gonna have to pass then.

MT and all the other total compensation retards in unison: BUT WE HAD A DEAL!

[Aten]

Even so, what makes you think he'd go for a back loaded deal?

And he wants the $16.2 now, not later.

If you give it to him for a few years then have it drop and then back load it, he's just going to take the guaranteed money and big few years and hold out, yet again.

You'd run into the same problem when the market catches up and somebody's contract puts him ahead of Revis's static 16M, and yeah, obviously the threat of a holdout is one of the things holding a deal up. Your argument is still untenable. You can't honestly believe that Revis's desire to earn exactly 16M ten years from now subsumes the relevant considerations of guaranteed money and first three years payout.

[THE ILK]

You'd run into the same problem when the market catches up and somebody's contract puts him ahead of Revis's static 16M, and yeah, obviously the threat of a holdout is one of the things holding a deal up. Your argument is still untenable. You can't honestly believe that Revis's desire to earn exactly 16M ten years from now subsumes the relevant considerations of guaranteed money and first three years payout.

He wants the $16.2 now though, and a substantial amount of money up front, so basically he'd be holding out again in 3 years.

I'm not sure you'd run into the "market catches up" problem that fast.

I was never saying he wanted all 10 years to be at $16 mill, but because he wants the $16 mill now, back-loading it only makes another hold out inevitable.

The market thing is not!

[JustInFudge]

Great news for the best center in the game. The Jets have locked up their Oline for years to come by redoing Moore a year ago and signing Brick and Mangold to long term deals. They aint stupid. Protect your franchise. And we all know, games are won and lost at the LOS.

Tanny has shown he rewards the good soldiers and pisses on the malcontents. If Mevi$ was in camp, who knows, maybe the Jets would have been more flexible with their negotiations.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the likes of Edwards, Holmes, Cro and Harris. Logic would think if Mevi$ doesnt cripple them, they could sign at least 2 of those 4 very important pieces.

[THE ILK]

Great news for the best center in the game. The Jets have locked up their Oline for years to come by redoing Moore a year ago and signing Brick and Mangold to long term deals. They aint stupid. Protect your franchise. And we all know, games are won and lost at the LOS.

Tanny has shown he rewards the good soldiers and pisses on the malcontents. If Mevi$ was in camp, who knows, maybe the Jets would have been more flexible with their negotiations.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the likes of Edwards, Holmes, Cro and Harris. Logic would think if Mevi$ doesnt cripple them, they could sign at least 2 of those 4 very important pieces.

All true, Tanny suring up the O-line is definitely more of a priority, we are a north east team, we play in wind and weather, the O-line is far more important than a shut down corner.

I think they keep Holmes, and depending on what happens with Revis, we may lose the other 3.

[slats]

The $16 mil a negotiation stance? Team Revis has kept that stance for SIX MONTHS. Sorry, but nobody maintains a "negotiating stance" that long. It's a demand, a prime concern. That's why there had not been any movement. Tannenbaum explained that stuff, but, of course, you discount that.

Plus, the point is that the only way there would be movement is if Revis got off that $16 mil demand. If he sticks to it he won't play football.

Further, I never said that either position was written in stone. But there is a difference between negotiating stance, standard negotiating procedure, and primary goal. Tanny's standard negotiating procedure is agreeing to total contract first (like they did with DBrick & Mangold, which you discount) and Team Revis' primary goal is getting $16 mil per. A negotiating stance is demand high and work down. If you never work down (like Team Revis failed to do), then it's not a negotiating stance.

Haha! Man, are you in lockstep! Tanny explained it, so it must be true!

Both sides have taken hard negotiating stances, and both sides need to soften those positions. The reason there's been no movement is that both sides are waiting for the other to blink.

Team Revis' goal isn't to get $16M/per, Team Revis' goal is to squeeze every possible penny out of the Jets that they possibly can. Both are greedy positions, but there's a subtle difference. Tannenbaum sticking to this total compensation nonsense (and make no mistake, it's nonsense) is his effort to control the talks, and Team Revis doesn't want to hand that control over. Again, it's both sides that need to make a move.

Tannenbaum could jump start things as easily as Revis simply by coming to the table and asking how much of a bonus would it take to get him back on the field. Once that number was on the table, he could ask, "if we get close to that number, can you come off this 10/$160 concept?" And so on.

Blaming the whole thing on one side is ridiculous. It's like you don't live in the real world.

MT: Okay, so here's what we're offering. Minimum salaries over the first six years, then a balloon payment of about 50M in year 7.

NM: I was thinking more along the lines of a 20M bonus and then salary raises at the standard rate.

MT: Too bad, because that's not what we're offering.

NM: I guess I'm gonna have to pass then.

MT and all the other total compensation retards in unison: BUT WE HAD A DEAL!

Door flies open - right over some heads.

[THE ILK]

Haha! Man, are you in lockstep! Tanny explained it, so it must be true!

Both sides have taken hard negotiating stances, and both sides need to soften those positions. The reason there's been no movement is that both sides are waiting for the other to blink.

Team Revis' goal isn't to get $16M/per, Team Revis' goal is to squeeze every possible penny out of the Jets that they possibly can. Both are greedy positions, but there's a subtle difference. Tannenbaum sticking to this total compensation nonsense (and make no mistake, it's nonsense) is his effort to control the talks, and Team Revis doesn't want to hand that control over. Again, it's both sides that need to make a move.

Tannenbaum could jump start things as easily as Revis simply by coming to the table and asking how much of a bonus would it take to get him back on the field. Once that number was on the table, he could ask, "if we get close to that number, can you come off this 10/$160 concept?" And so on.

Blaming the whole thing on one side is ridiculous. It's like you don't live in the real world.

You think both stances are unreasonable, so why should Tanny be the one to come down first?

Revis is under contract for the next 3-4 years, not in camp and losing money daily, and it was the Jets that offered to give him a better deal.

Tanny has/is getting 1/2 of the core 4 signed, (the two biggest priorities IMO) going about things the way he sees fit.

Who has more to lose here?

We have Cro and Wilson, Revis has nothing without the Jets doing something for him.

He is in no way in a position to make Tanny fold right now, and hopefully he knows that.

If he wants to hold out through the season, that's on him. It may work his way, and it can also backfire.

I guess if Tanny stands pat, we'll see if he's willing to take that chance.

[slats]

You think both stances are unreasonable, so why should Tanny be the one to come down first?

Simply because he holds all the cards in this game. He's the one who can create some movement better than Revis. If Mangold's deal is like Brick's in terms of very little money up front, Revis will not be inclined to discuss total compensation with the Jets if that's the result. Revis' team has spoken repeated about long term security. That only comes in the form of bonus money. Or at the very least money guaranteed for skill starting the moment he signs rather than this first day of the 2011 season bullsh*t.

Tanny can break the ice by putting bonus money on the table. It's not the same if Revis comes in and says, "okay, how about 10/$150?" The real money is the bonus and guaranteed money. The later, non-guaranteed years are window dressing. That's why this total compensation stance from the Jets is absurd. They know it, too.

I just want the ice broken.

[THE ILK]

Simply because he holds all the cards in this game. He's the one who can create some movement better than Revis. If Mangold's deal is like Brick's in terms of very little money up front, Revis will not be inclined to discuss total compensation with the Jets if that's the result. Revis' team has spoken repeated about long term security. That only comes in the form of bonus money. Or at the very least money guaranteed for skill starting the moment he signs rather than this first day of the 2011 season bullsh*t.

Tanny can break the ice by putting bonus money on the table. It's not the same if Revis comes in and says, "okay, how about 10/$150?" The real money is the bonus and guaranteed money. The later, non-guaranteed years are window dressing. That's why this total compensation stance from the Jets is absurd. They know it, too.

I just want the ice broken.

I hear you slats, but I don't see how it would be any less easy for team Revis to come off the $16/$160 to something more reasonable, just to get the guarantee talks going.

It's not like anything will be signed until everything is worked out anyway, even you agree that those demands are unreasonable.

[slats]

I hear you slats, but I don't see how it would be any less easy for team Revis to come off the $16/$160 to something more reasonable, just to get the guarantee talks going.

It's not like anything will be signed until everything is worked out anyway, even you agree that those demands are unreasonable.

I don't think Revis coming in with a lower per year demand would be nearly as effective getting things moving as the Jets coming in with the offer of bonus money. I really don't think it would be close. People are up in arms about this 10/$160 nonsense, but it's really just a show. The real meat of the deal is bonus + first couple years' pay + guarantees. Nothing else is real.

If the Jets show up in negotiations with literal bags of money -here Revis, this is what the $10M up front we're offering you looks like!- negotiations will start moving.

Tannenbaum is trying to do total compensation first to chip him down before the meat of the deal gets discussed. That's why Revis' people will continue to be reluctant to do that. The Jets hold the power in this negotiation, so Revis' camp is going to be less wiling to budge for fear of losing whatever leverage they have. Tannenbaum has plenty of room to come off of his hard line stance, and and still maintain the power position in these negotiations. If he offered some meat first, I guarantee he'd get some movement on that total comp.

The player, sitting at home, not being paid, reading a lot of sh*t about himself in the papers, is going to be the more emotional party, too. The Jets should take on the role of the rational party, and get these talks moving.

[THE ILK]

I don't think Revis coming in with a lower per year demand would be nearly as effective getting things moving as the Jets coming in with the offer of bonus money. I really don't think it would be close. People are up in arms about this 10/$160 nonsense, but it's really just a show. The real meat of the deal is bonus + first couple years' pay + guarantees. Nothing else is real.

If the Jets show up in negotiations with literal bags of money -here Revis, this is what the $10M up front we're offering you looks like!- negotiations will start moving.

Tannenbaum is trying to do total compensation first to chip him down before the meat of the deal gets discussed. That's why Revis' people will continue to be reluctant to do that. The Jets hold the power in this negotiation, so Revis' camp is going to be less wiling to budge for fear of losing whatever leverage they have. Tannenbaum has plenty of room to come off of his hard line stance, and and still maintain the power position in these negotiations. If he offered some meat first, I guarantee he'd get some movement on that total comp.

The player, sitting at home, not being paid, reading a lot of sh*t about himself in the papers, is going to be the more emotional party, too. The Jets should take on the role of the rational party, and get these talks moving.

Well can we even be sure, that something like that has not happened?

If not, I honestly think that the reluctance comes from the fact that Revis wants to be the highest paid corner on the front end of the deal, and he wants a large portion of that guaranteed.

Which basically spells out another holdout come year 4.

[jgb]

i wonder if slats would support revis' housekeeper if she decided to hold out

[slats]

Well can we even be sure, that something like that has not happened?

If not, I honestly think that the reluctance comes from the fact that Revis wants to be the highest paid corner on the front end of the deal, and he wants a large portion of that guaranteed.

Which basically spells out another holdout come year 4.

This is why I'm interested to see what Mangold got. He was really in position to get a handsome bonus being in the last year of his deal and being a good soldier by being in camp. If he got a D'Brick-like contract, then I think it's safe to assume that the Jets have not put any real bonus money on the table.

I've said all along that any deal the Jets put together for Revis has to protect them as much as possible from another holdout. That's a reality. Thing is, if Revis is holding out again three years from now, it'll probably mean that the Jets had gotten three damn good years of service from him over that period of time. If contract headaches are what you get with this player, then you have to weigh that against all other factors and decide whether he's worth it or not. Given the fact that he's a genius on the field, and a boyscout off of it, I'm inclined to do what I can to hold onto him - within reason, of course.

[THE ILK]

This is why I'm interested to see what Mangold got. He was really in position to get a handsome bonus being in the last year of his deal and being a good soldier by being in camp. If he got a D'Brick-like contract, then I think it's safe to assume that the Jets have not put any real bonus money on the table.

I've said all along that any deal the Jets put together for Revis has to protect them as much as possible from another holdout. That's a reality. Thing is, if Revis is holding out again three years from now, it'll probably mean that the Jets had gotten three damn good years of service from him over that period of time. If contract headaches are what you get with this player, then you have to weigh that against all other factors and decide whether he's worth it or not. Given the fact that he's a genius on the field, and a boyscout off of it, I'm inclined to do what I can to hold onto him - within reason, of course.

Well that would depend on what he got total those 3 years though, and yes he was a stand up guy up until he pulled that OTA crap.

I would agree that he should continue in those "boyscout" ways, but you can never be sure of that.

Yes allot will be more telling, once the Mangold money is released, according to reports it's up there.

Oh and Colishaw's "source" has Revis getting big upfront money too, so we shall see.

Nobody can be sure of what the Jets could do to protect themselves from another holdout under the new CBA either.

[Sperm Edwards]

Let's just get it out there? Are you suggesting that you're bringing something new to this discussion?

I'm not going nuts about anything. Mangold's free to sign whatever deal he thinks is best for him. Personally, I think he'd be being very generous if he didn't get a large chunk of that alleged $20M guaranteed up front. He's proven to be a good soldier, he's the best at his position, and he deserves it. Also in that vein, in this uncapped year Mangold's contract is the perfect place for the Jets to hide away some dollars to save against future salary caps.

But I have a feeling he didn't get a big bonus, because I think if he did Revis' camp would look to use that to help their cause. And also because teams aren't giving out big bonuses before the lockout.

I think I'm now understanding you better. You believe, for some reason, that a SB would only count this year with no cap, and that no amortized portion will count against future caps. Why do you believe this?

[Larz]

Let's just get it out there? Are you suggesting that you're bringing something new to this discussion?

I'm not going nuts about anything. Mangold's free to sign whatever deal he thinks is best for him. Personally, I think he'd be being very generous if he didn't get a large chunk of that alleged $20M guaranteed up front. He's proven to be a good soldier, he's the best at his position, and he deserves it. Also in that vein, in this uncapped year Mangold's contract is the perfect place for the Jets to hide away some dollars to save against future salary caps.

But I have a feeling he didn't get a big bonus, because I think if he did Revis' camp would look to use that to help their cause. And also because teams aren't giving out big bonuses before the lockout.

so now it's bonuses

you don't have many fall-backs left dude, lol

[slats]

I think I'm now understanding you better. You believe, for some reason, that a SB would only count this year with no cap, and that no amortized portion will count against future caps. Why do you believe this?

I believe there's money to be spent this year that won't show up on future caps. Whether it's signing bonus, roster bonus, or bloated salary - there's got to be a way to use the uncapped year to their advantage, and the Cap Wizard should know the ins and outs of that.

so now it's bonuses

you don't have many fall-backs left dude, lol

Bonus money = only real guaranteed money

I've said that from the onset, it's not a fall back position.

[Bleedin Green]

Not to distract this Mangold thread from all of the Revis discussion, but apparently Mangold has officially signed on the dotted line.

http://blog.newyorkjets.com/2010/08/24/mangold-signs-extension-with-the-jets/

Mangold Signs Extension with the Jets

Posted by Randy Lange on August 24, 2010 – 4:05 pm

No sooner said than done.

Nick Mangold, the Jets’ two-time Pro Bowl center, signed a contract extension on the dotted line this afternoon, one day after head coach Rex Ryan told reporters: “My understanding is that we’re close.”

Ryan, in fact, held Mangold out of team drills at today’s training camp practice at the Atlantic Health Jets Training Center — “I didn’t want him into a hole or something as he’s getting ready to sign.”

Mangold came out of general manager Mike Tannenbaum’s office all smiles in front of a “Hard Knocks” camera crew this afternoon, a short while after the practice ended and the locker room media period concluded without an appearance by No. 74. Mangold then had a short visit with reporters to talk about the thing he couldn’t talk about Monday. We’ll have those comments for you on this blog shortly.

But others in the Jets’ locker room expressed happiness for the player that Ryan said is “the best center in football.”

“Some happy news today coming from the building,” said QB Mark Sanchez. “We’re very excited and that’s a huge move for the organization. Selfishly, I’m smiling from ear to ear. That’s a big deal for us.”

“I’m happy for Nick,” said linebacker David Harris. “I told him congratulations.”

The Jets are adhering to their usual policy in releasing no details of the extension with Mangold. But as Ryan said:

“He’s healthy, he’s happy, and he can pretend it’s not that big a deal, and then he can go home and cry to his wife.”

[Bleedin Green]

Mangold talks about it:

http://www.newyorkjets.com/photos-and-videos/videos/Mangold-Talks-about-Extension/27697cb7-70b3-4378-8049-49b7c0eb5818

[Sperm Edwards]

I believe there's money to be spent this year that won't show up on future caps. Whether it's signing bonus, roster bonus, or bloated salary - there's got to be a way to use the uncapped year to their advantage, and the Cap Wizard should know the ins and outs of that.

No. That is untrue.

Bloated salary: can't because of uncapped season rules

Roster bonus: counts exactly the same as salary

Signing bonus: gets amortized, so if it was a 6yr deal, for example, 5/6 comes off future caps.

They can't hide it. That was the design of an uncapped year.

[Bleedin Green]

Mangold talks about it:

http://www.newyorkjets.com/photos-and-videos/videos/Mangold-Talks-about-Extension/27697cb7-70b3-4378-8049-49b7c0eb5818

One thing I found interesting about this about 4 1/2 minutes in, Mangold was asked, "Was it important to you become the highest paid center?" And it wasn't only Mangold's answer that I found interesting, but how quickly he responded to it, and rather definitively.

Mangold: "No, not particularly. It wasn't a sticking point, and I'm very fortunate the Jets decided to go that route. I'm very appreciative and excited to have that. I'm sure some young gun will come along next year and blow me out of the water anyway. That's a-ok in my book."

Figured it was relevant given all of the Mangold vs. Revis stuff in this thread, as this one was clearly directly aimed in that direction and Nick clearly wanted the point made that this wasn't what his negotiations were all about.