The Walking Dead

[Pac]

That is a fair point.

IMHO they should take a page from Lost.  When Lost had a flashback or forward, it was intertwined with an event going on for that character at that point in time.  And that episode would have led perfectly to it.

The story could have progressed from when most assumed he killed the Wolve.  Have it flashback between his time with Eastman and his time conversation with the Wolve.   Maybe we learn a little more about the Wolves and their thought process.

It might be picking nits, but after they wasted half a season last year with Beth.  It was nice to see them wrap this up quicker. 

My only point is with 16 episodes, you have a limited amount of time you can throw away for development.

Funny you mention Lost..  top 5 favorite show for me and the character development shows never bored me at all..  Although I did binge watch the first 5 seasons.

I could see why some might thing the pacing was slow but I didn't mind it..  probably has a lot to do with the excellent job John Lynch did with Eastman.  Kind of a working mans Ninja - complete with gut, balding, and all.

oh and not gonna lie..  it's sorta bothering me you're saying "wolve".. isn't the singular just "wolf"?

 

[The Crusher]

Just watched and liked it a lot.  People too impatient these days with movies and shows.  How are we supposed to care about characters without development and backstory.  Didn't miss the "action" at all.

Although I'd like it if people stopped saying Glen is alive...  no he's not.

I thought it was very good as well.  It was one of the more interesting backstory episodes.  Answers the question, "Where did Morgan learn his bowstaff skills?"  Very good episode.

[PFSIKH]

Funny you mention Lost..  top 5 favorite show for me and the character development shows never bored me at all..  Although I did binge watch the first 5 seasons.

I could see why some might thing the pacing was slow but I didn't mind it..  probably has a lot to do with the excellent job John Lynch did with Eastman.  Kind of a working mans Ninja - complete with gut, balding, and all.

oh and not gonna lie..  it's sorta bothering me you're saying "wolve".. isn't the singular just "wolf"?

 

Same here.

I liked the episode and this season is sooooo much better.  It just seemed long to me.

Yeah, it is.  Sad thing I was looking at it and thought it was not right.

[Integrity28]

Same here.

I liked the episode and this season is sooooo much better.  It just seemed long to me.

Yeah, it is.  Sad thing I was looking at it and thought it was not right.

Ditto.

I love that they made the zombies a threat again, I think they exhausted the "high-tension Rick needs to kill everyone, because humans are a threat" overtone with last season. I also appreciate the effort to unpack some of the other characters. I like Rick, but they've boxed that character in so much, that it doesn't allow for any other thematic devices to be used in the writing. This past episode, opens the door to humanity, which got lost over the past couple of seasons. I think the writing for this season feels refreshed and inspired.

[ZachEY]

Ditto.

I love that they made the zombies a threat again, I think they exhausted the "high-tension Rick needs to kill everyone, because humans are a threat" overtone with last season. I also appreciate the effort to unpack some of the other characters. I like Rick, but they've boxed that character in so much, that it doesn't allow for any other thematic devices to be used in the writing. This past episode, opens the door to humanity, which got lost over the past couple of seasons. I think the writing for this season feels refreshed and inspired.

Haven't been a participant in the thread, but I love the show.  I agree with this assessment, but it's actually the reason I have little interest in Rick.  To me, Rick's little more than a Walker at this point.  Which is kind of a question of the show... What is humanity?  Why survive?  While Rick is still obviously alive, everything that would make him human seems to be gone.  That's why Morgan is so important.  To me, Morgan is Rick's humanity, he's the opposite extreme of what separates the human's from the Walkers.  He'll probably die for it, but my guess is, with his death, he's somewhat internalized by Rick, who'll perhaps become more like the two most compelling characters, who've been able to find and maintain the necessarily balance to both stay alive and stay human, Michone and Carol.  Also, if there's any George RR Martin in the creators of TWD, I could see Rick dying along with Morgan.  But I kind of doubt that, as no other show has been able to pull that type of main character genocide off.

[Integrity28]

Haven't been a participant in the thread, but I love the show.  I agree with this assessment, but it's actually the reason I have little interest in Rick.  To me, Rick's little more than a Walker at this point.  Which is kind of a question of the show... What is humanity?  Why survive?  While Rick is still obviously alive, everything that would make him human seems to be gone.  That's why Morgan is so important.  To me, Morgan is Rick's humanity, he's the opposite extreme of what separates the human's from the Walkers.  He'll probably die for it, but my guess is, with his death, he's somewhat internalized by Rick, who'll perhaps become more like the two most compelling characters, who've been able to find and maintain the necessarily balance to both stay alive and stay human, Michone and Carol.  Also, if there's any George RR Martin in the creators of TWD, I could see Rick dying along with Morgan.  But I kind of doubt that, as no other show has been able to pull that type of main character genocide off.

up until now, I've viewed Daryl as the moral compass... Morgan's introduction feels like a way of avoiding having no choice but for Rick to kill Daryl.

[PFSIKH]

up until now, I've viewed Daryl as the moral compass... Morgan's introduction feels like a way of avoiding having no choice but for Rick to kill Daryl.

What?

I agree that Daryl has been the moral compass for Rick, I just cannot see him killing Daryl for that reason.

My SWAG is Morgan tries to undermine Rick in the eyes of Alexandria.  His belief system is a lot more palatable to most of them.

[PFSIKH]

Good episode.

I think it sets the stage for the remaining three episodes of the first half of the season.

What direction does Deanna go in after her post apocalypse balls finally dropped?

Deanna and Rick relationship.

I went back and watched the Comic Con trailer for Season 6 and there is only one scene (I think) that has not been covered in the first half. 

My SWAG is Morgan tries to undermine Rick in the eyes of Alexandria.  His belief system is a lot more palatable to most of them.

And it is along these lines.

 

 

[JohnnyHector]

 What is humanity?  Why survive?  While Rick is still obviously alive, everything that would make him human seems to be gone.  That's why Morgan is so important.  To me, Morgan is Rick's humanity, he's the opposite extreme of what separates the human's from the Walkers.  He'll probably die for it, but my guess is, with his death, he's somewhat internalized by Rick, who'll perhaps become more like the two most compelling characters, who've been able to find and maintain the necessarily balance to both stay alive and stay human, Michone and Carol.

The thing that separates Rick from the likes of Morgan, Michonne, and Carol is that he's the only one who has kept his children alive through it all, essentially justifying his actions.  He's one of the few who has a reason to survive beyond self-preservation.  That is what continues to make his character interesting to me, as I've wondered myself, if I'd have the want to go on living in a post-apocalyptic world if my children had perished... but also knowing that I'd be willing do whatever it took to keep them alive.

 

[ZachEY]

The thing that separates Rick from the likes of Morgan, Michonne, and Carol is that he's the only one who has kept his children alive through it all, essentially justifying his actions.  He's one of the few who has a reason to survive beyond self-preservation.  That is what continues to make his character interesting to me, as I've wondered myself, if I'd have the want to go on living in a post-apocalyptic world if my children had perished... but also knowing that I'd be willing do whatever it took to keep them alive.

 

True, regarding his children.  I guess I hadn't thought as much about that because they continue to minimize the role his children play in the show.  Also, I guess it begs of the question of justification.  Are his actions justified because his children are alive?  Could he not have kept them alive without becoming what he has?

[JohnnyHector]

Also, I guess it begs of the question of justification.  Are his actions justified because his children are alive?  Could he not have kept them alive without becoming what he has?

I envision him being a big proponent of Klogic, so he likely thinks that the end result validates his decision process.

[PFSIKH]

True, regarding his children.  I guess I hadn't thought as much about that because they continue to minimize the role his children play in the show.  Also, I guess it begs of the question of justification.  Are his actions justified because his children are alive?  Could he not have kept them alive without becoming what he has?

Great question.

I think the show suggests no.

If Rick had taking the Morgan stance of all life is precious, then Shane would have likely killed him in Season 2.

Trying to reason with the Governor did not work as well.

Morgan allowing the Wolf to survive ended up killing several Alexandrians. 

Or you can take the Eastman route and live a secluded life.

 

[Fishooked]

True, regarding his children.  I guess I hadn't thought as much about that because they continue to minimize the role his children play in the show.  Also, I guess it begs of the question of justification.  Are his actions justified because his children are alive?  Could he not have kept them alive without becoming what he has?

Probably not, any parent in the same situation would do anything possible to protect their family, even doing things deemed reprehensible in others' eyes. I know I would. 

You can see that now with Jessie as well. 

Love me some Jessie though. 

hnnnngggg

[ZachEY]

I envision him being a big proponent of Klogic, so he likely thinks that the end result validates his decision process.

Great question.

I think the show suggests no.

If Rick had taking the Morgan stance of all life is precious, then Shane would have likely killed him in Season 2.

Trying to reason with the Governor did not work as well.

Morgan allowing the Wolf to survive ended up killing several Alexandrians. 

Or you can take the Eastman route and live a secluded life.

Probably not, any parent in the same situation would do anything possible to protect their family, even doing things deemed reprehensible in others' eyes. I know I would. 

You can see that now with Jessie as well. 

Love me some Jessie though. 

hnnnngggg

Certainly I'm not suggesting that someone wouldn't/shouldn't kill for their children.  But, I guess how I'm feeling about him now is that he's past that point.  Every time Rick kills someone recently, is it still for his children, or is it because that's who he is now?  Which I guess is another question of the show... Once you go to that extreme, can you come back?

[JustInFudge]

Certainly I'm not suggesting that someone wouldn't/shouldn't kill for their children.  But, I guess how I'm feeling about him now is that he's past that point.  Every time Rick kills someone recently, is it still for his children, or is it because that's who he is now?  Which I guess is another question of the show... Once you go to that extreme, can you come back?

It's because he is who he is now but I still think it's just a product of the environment and Rick has just learned his lesson not to trust humanity, or what remains of it, if it even does exist. Remember, he tried the non-violent farmer life style on for size and it led to watching his good buddy get his head cut off with his other good buddies sword.  And that was for the sake of Carl not becoming a murdering monster.

It's not possible to come back.  Not when someone, somewhere is constantly trying to take what you've got, even when what you've got is next to nothing. Now?  They've got a lot to lose and Rick has seen what it's like to lose a place that seems to have the ability to sustain. 

I think Hector brought up a good point and from a non-parent, you maybe lose site of what he's fighting for...especially the fact one of his children is a helpless infant. 

 

[Fishooked]

It's because he is who he is now but I still think it's just a product of the environment and Rick has just learned his lesson not to trust humanity, or what remains of it, if it even does exist. Remember, he tried the non-violent farmer life style on for size and it led to watching his good buddy get his head cut off with his other good buddies sword.  And that was for the sake of Carl not becoming a murdering monster.

It's not possible to come back.  Not when someone, somewhere is constantly trying to take what you've got, even when what you've got is next to nothing. Now?  They've got a lot to lose and Rick has seen what it's like to lose a place that seems to have the ability to sustain. 

I think Hector brought up a good point and from a non-parent, you maybe lose site of what he's fighting for...especially the fact one of his children is a helpless infant. 

 

Maybe his budding romance with Jessie softens him up some - meanwhile Jessie looks to be now moving in the opposite direction.

Could get interesting. 

[JustInFudge]

True, regarding his children.  I guess I hadn't thought as much about that because they continue to minimize the role his children play in the show.  Also, I guess it begs of the question of justification.  Are his actions justified because his children are alive?  Could he not have kept them alive without becoming what he has?

I dont think he could have and I think his actions are justified with or without the children.  Again, he tried the non-violent life style on and it bit him in the ass.  He almost died and lost a ton of his crew, including his mentor, if you will.  How can you be humane or trust any living create after what he's been through? 

All that said, there is still an element of humanity in him.  He wants to help people.  He wants to protect people.  He just has learned his lesson and has a short leash on anything that could put those he is protecting at risk.  You hear how he talks about his crew.  He cares about people.  Still does.  He's just not willing to take any chances anymore and I dont really blame him.  Kill or be killed.  That's the world they live in.  

 

[JustInFudge]

Maybe his budding romance with Jessie softens him up some - meanwhile Jessie looks to be now moving in the opposite direction.

Could get interesting. 

I dont think there is any softening him anymore.  He is who he is.  If anything, the addition of her into his life could make him more crazy.  Pussy is a powerful drug.

I think the interesting plot twist is when does her son try to kill Carl or Rick, or both? 

[PFSIKH]

Certainly I'm not suggesting that someone wouldn't/shouldn't kill for their children.  But, I guess how I'm feeling about him now is that he's past that point.  Every time Rick kills someone recently, is it still for his children, or is it because that's who he is now?  Which I guess is another question of the show... Once you go to that extreme, can you come back?

Children?  Or his family (group as a whole)?

I am not saying he has not killed anyone just for the sake of killing, like Carl did a few seasons back were he shot the kid who put down his gun right before the Governor attack.  I do not remember tbh.

I think he has adopted Shane's "kill or be killed" mantra as it pertains to strangers.  I think his speech at the end of last season (e.g. "I was wondering how many I have to kill to save you...") is a sign he is not at the extreme.  He is not far from it though.

IMHO he is pragmatic about how he kills.

[PFSIKH]

I saw a few links to this so it might be true.  Negan has been cast.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/walking-dead-negan-jeffrey-dean-836243

[ZachEY]

It's because he is who he is now but I still think it's just a product of the environment and Rick has just learned his lesson not to trust humanity, or what remains of it, if it even does exist. Remember, he tried the non-violent farmer life style on for size and it led to watching his good buddy get his head cut off with his other good buddies sword.  And that was for the sake of Carl not becoming a murdering monster.

It's not possible to come back.  Not when someone, somewhere is constantly trying to take what you've got, even when what you've got is next to nothing. Now?  They've got a lot to lose and Rick has seen what it's like to lose a place that seems to have the ability to sustain. 

I think Hector brought up a good point and from a non-parent, you maybe lose site of what he's fighting for...especially the fact one of his children is a helpless infant. 

 

Again, the question is of degrees.  Is there a difference between being non-violent and being what Rick has become.  Obviously he is protecting his people, but I suppose I just wonder if an element of him is just a killer at this point.  Where in the grey area between nonviolent and the governor does he exist?

As for not being a parent, lets talk about that again in 10-11 weeks... But, as I said, I get that he's looking out for his children, but the show has minimized them tremendously at this point.  Judith barely exists and even Carl has a lesser role than he used to.  I'm questioning whether Rick has taken his role too far, if there's even such a thing?  Is he so singularly focused that he's become the governor in his own right?

[ZachEY]

Children?  Or his family (group as a whole)?

I am not saying he has not killed anyone just for the sake of killing, like Carl did a few seasons back were he shot the kid who put down his gun right before the Governor attack.  I do not remember tbh.

I think he has adopted Shane's "kill or be killed" mantra as it pertains to strangers.  I think his speech at the end of last season (e.g. "I was wondering how many I have to kill to save you...") is a sign he is not at the extreme.  He is not far from it though.

IMHO he is pragmatic about how he kills.

Fair enough.  I think he's lost his mind somewhat.  Which, is certainly understandable considering the circumstances, but while his actions may be goal directed, I'm not sold that they're always rational.

[PFSIKH]

Fair enough.  I think he's lost his mind somewhat.  Which, is certainly understandable considering the circumstances, but while his actions may be goal directed, I'm not sold that they're always rational.

I agree.

For lack of a better term, he obviously had some temporary insanity.  He had to kill his best friend.  HIs wife died right after given birth to his (or Shane's daughter), his son had to kill his mother and people have died as a result of his action.

As Jif said, it is a matter of degrees.  I do not think he is the governor, but clearly he was in the same neighborhood.

[JustInFudge]

Again, the question is of degrees.  Is there a difference between being non-violent and being what Rick has become.  Obviously he is protecting his people, but I suppose I just wonder if an element of him is just a killer at this point.  Where in the grey area between nonviolent and the governor does he exist?

As for not being a parent, lets talk about that again in 10-11 weeks... But, as I said, I get that he's looking out for his children, but the show has minimized them tremendously at this point.  Judith barely exists and even Carl has a lesser role than he used to.  I'm questioning whether Rick has taken his role too far, if there's even such a thing?  Is he so singularly focused that he's become the governor in his own right?

Are you that close to being a daddy?  Congrats buddy!

I think the fact that every situation he's been in, that everyone looks to him to be the leader is part of the reason he takes the precautions he does in regards to the living.  And the fact everyone defaults to him, somewhat has turned him into a version of the Governor...but not as twisted as he was, clearly.  And I dont think it was ever his intention whereas I think that was fully the Governor's.  The Governor had some deep seeded issues that I dont think Rick suffers from.  I still think he possess a side of decency.  For the most part, he still gives people a chance.  He'll take people under their wing when they dont deserve it (the Priest).  

I dont think Rick is just a cold blooded killer.  I think he kills with rhyme and reason.  And there has been times that he let the humanity get the best of him, whether is was the influence of someone else or his own conscience like the guy that was plotting to kill him that he didnt kill who ended up almost derailing the Walkers during the plan when got bit by trying to go out on his own.  

Another perfect example of this is the Wolves and Terminus.  They've lost all humanity, looking to kill and take over anything they can.  Cannibalism,etc.  That's not Rick.  If it was, they would have killed off anything and everything that put them at risk in Alexandria...and that abusive husband would have died the night they fought in the streets.  I think Rick wants to do right but is truly a product of the environment. 

 

 

[ZachEY]

Are you that close to being a daddy?  Congrats buddy!

I think the fact that every situation he's been in, that everyone looks to him to be the leader is part of the reason he takes the precautions he does in regards to the living.  And the fact everyone defaults to him, somewhat has turned him into a version of the Governor...but not as twisted as he was, clearly.  And I dont think it was ever his intention whereas I think that was fully the Governor's.  The Governor had some deep seeded issues that I dont think Rick suffers from.  I still think he possess a side of decency.  For the most part, he still gives people a chance.  He'll take people under their wing when they dont deserve it (the Priest).  

I dont think Rick is just a cold blooded killer.  I think he kills with rhyme and reason.  And there has been times that he let the humanity get the best of him, whether is was the influence of someone else or his own conscience like the guy that was plotting to kill him that he didnt kill who ended up almost derailing the Walkers during the plan when got bit by trying to go out on his own.  

Another perfect example of this is the Wolves and Terminus.  They've lost all humanity, looking to kill and take over anything they can.  Cannibalism,etc.  That's not Rick.  If it was, they would have killed off anything and everything that put them at risk in Alexandria...and that abusive husband would have died the night they fought in the streets.  I think Rick wants to do right but is truly a product of the environment. 

I am... Thanks!  Having a little girl... So, hands off!!! haha!

Everything you say here is fair.  Perhaps I've been seeing him a bit to one-dimensionally, but despite what he says sometimes, I've just gotten the feeling that Rick has lost the purpose of all of it at times.  Which is certainly understandable.

Michone is my favorite anyway.  But, I think I just like swords.

[JustInFudge]

I am... Thanks!  Having a little girl... So, hands off!!! haha!

Everything you say here is fair.  Perhaps I've been seeing him a bit to one-dimensionally, but despite what he says sometimes, I've just gotten the feeling that Rick has lost the purpose of all of it at times.  Which is certainly understandable.

Michone is my favorite anyway.  But, I think I just like swords.

 Picked out a name yet?  I'm just asking...jeez.  

Michone is the sh*t.  I like her and Daryl but Rick is raw.  And I love him for it. 

[ZachEY]

 Picked out a name yet?  I'm just asking...jeez.  

Michone is the sh*t.  I like her and Daryl but Rick is raw.  And I love him for it. 

Klecko73isGirl?

[T0mShane]

Not to be That Guy, but I haven't watched a second of this season, but I'm pretty sure I DVRed it. Am I missing anything? I just got really bored with the direction of the show over the last season and a half. Has it shifted or still all "omg look at Rick lose his miiiiind PS look at these sucker-ass pacifists OMG random zombie attack OMG black character goes full emo"?

[The Crusher]

I am... Thanks!  Having a little girl... So, hands off!!! haha!

Everything you say here is fair.  Perhaps I've been seeing him a bit to one-dimensionally, but despite what he says sometimes, I've just gotten the feeling that Rick has lost the purpose of all of it at times.  Which is certainly understandable.

Michone is my favorite anyway.  But, I think I just like swords.

Congratulations EY!!  Awesome news man. 

[Lego My Lageman]

Negan has been cast

[Fishooked]

I am... Thanks!  Having a little girl... So, hands off!!! haha!

Everything you say here is fair.  Perhaps I've been seeing him a bit to one-dimensionally, but despite what he says sometimes, I've just gotten the feeling that Rick has lost the purpose of all of it at times.  Which is certainly understandable.

Michone is my favorite anyway.  But, I think I just like swords.

Congratulations! I've got two, they're great. 

But now they are heading into their tween years, I have a feeling my life is about to get much more difficult. 

[JustInFudge]

Not to be That Guy, but I haven't watched a second of this season, but I'm pretty sure I DVRed it. Am I missing anything? I just got really bored with the direction of the show over the last season and a half. Has it shifted or still all "omg look at Rick lose his miiiiind PS look at these sucker-ass pacifists OMG random zombie attack OMG black character goes full emo"?

I think it's been solid...but you're a miserable prick, so who knows if you'll like it.

[Integrity28]

I dont think there is any softening him anymore.  He is who he is.  If anything, the addition of her into his life could make him more crazy.  Pussy is a powerful drug.

I think the interesting plot twist is when does her son try to kill Carl or Rick, or both? 

Yes, and yes.

[JustInFudge]

Yes, and yes.

haha - I really want an epic Carl showdown where he just beats that kids face in an executes him in front of the whole town.  It would finally make Carl interesting. 

[Integrity28]

haha - I really want an epic Carl showdown where he just beats that kids face in an executes him in front of the whole town.  It would finally make Carl interesting. 

It would.

Also, think of what that does to the Rick/Jesse dynamics. If Carl kills her son, then the whole town will get behind her. If her son kills Carl, then Rick is going to kill her son, and the whole town gets behind her. I could see this impending conflict between the boys being the device they use to give Morgan his platform to stand-off with Rick.

Shame too... Rick needs to get laid so bad.

Ultimately, more people need to die, and Rosita needs more screen time.