Time too see who JN wants back

[JustInFudge]

Lord knows our passing game will go back to sucking if we lose either.

Go back to sucking? Did I miss something? When did our passing game not suck?

[Bleedin Green]

Go back to sucking? Did I miss something? When did our passing game not suck?

I'm pretty sure the last time was 1998.

[bitonti]

There's no real reason to explain it away. It's easy, because Braylon is a dipsh*t. Holmes just happens to be a bigger dipsh*t.

i disagree with this.

Edwards has been more poorly behaved, more recently than Holmes.

Santonio had a clean 2010 off the field, Braylon didn't. whatever junk Holmes was involved with... happened before he was a NYJ. Maybe he's matured up.

Braylon getting arrested mid season basically spelled the end of him as a Jet.

[Bleedin Green]

i disagree with this.

Edwards has been more poorly behaved, more recently than Holmes.

Santonio had a clean 2010 off the field, Braylon didn't. whatever junk Holmes was involved with... happened before he was a NYJ. Maybe he's matured up.

Braylon getting arrested mid season basically spelled the end of him as a Jet.

Of course you do. Holmes was pulled off of a plane due to behavioral issues while with the Jets, but I'm sure you'll tell me why that doesn't count. And attribute it to whenever you want (although I'm not sure what your basis is for saying he last failed a drug test 2 years ago when he was suspended for it 9 months ago), but Holmes still served a 4 game suspension this year. While with the Jets, after coming off that suspension, he made it crystal clear he saw nothing wrong with his behavior and had no intention of changing his behavior. I'm sorry, but just because Braylon was a moron slightly more recently doesn't suddenly absolve Holmes of being a moron. I assure you, if Holmes fails another drug test a defense of "But Braylon got arrested for a DUI last year!" won't keep him from being sent packing for an entire year.

I prefer Edwards, but I'm able to acknowledge the issues he's had and admit that they need to stop immediately, you need to learn to do the same with Holmes and face reality. While I know you have intentionally ignored this point previously I'll repeat it again, next suspension for each player will be Edwards' first and a year for Holmes. I guess I just don't understand your ongoing need to be a never-ending apologist for a player when you decide you really like them. It's ok for you to prefer Holmes, and still admit he's a dipsh*t.

[HessStation]

Holmes plays bigger in clutch situations.

I picked Holmes fwiw but people forget he dropped one through his hands the play before. Not everyone gets second chances, luckily he did. But he also made almost all the plays to get them down the field too so..anyway, just saying. He's so good but so scary inconsistent too. Problem is so is BE.

[bitonti]

I'm sorry, but just because Braylon was a moron slightly more recently doesn't suddenly absolve Holmes of being a moron.

Edwards Dui was in September, holmes stern talking to (no cuffs, no charges) was in April. You are stretching the truth here with "slightly more recently"

Braylon Edwards was arrested during the season. That's a bottom line statement.

[Bleedin Green]

Edwards Dui was in September, holmes stern talking to (no cuffs, no charges) was in April. You are stretching the truth here with "slightly more recently"

Braylon Edwards was arrested during the season. That's a bottom line statement.

Five WHOLE months?!? How could I be so wrong, that's an enormous amount of time. I'm surprised both players weren't retired by the time all was said and done, with that much time going by! It's like an eternity!

Interesting point you bring up though, Edwards DUI was in September. Where was Holmes at that time... anyone remember? Oh yeah, he was off serving a 4-game suspension. But hey that doesn't count because um... apparently Braylon being a dumbass and getting a DUI makes Holmes' failed drug tests not count anymore? Sorry, that's not the way to world works. But yeah, Edwards is Satan incarnate for missing a quarter of football with Holmes is a saint despite missing 4 games. While I know you'll ignore it, I will just keep repeating the single most important set of facts for you in this entire "king of the dumbasses" debate:

Next NFL Suspension:

Braylon Edwards - First career suspension

Santonio Holmes - See you in a year, dumbass

Forget either of our opinions, the bolded above is the indisputable, undeniable 100% factual truth of the situation. If that bothers you so much, then maybe you should reevaluate your position. I mean think about this for a second, we're no longer even debating the talent of each player, but you are still so incapable of even acknowledging a single fault in the newest player you've decided to put on a pedestal. Do you know how many times you've ignored the same facts over and over again? Every time you've made a broad statement on this debate and I have retorted with facts to counter you, you've literally just deleted that part of my post out of your quote and refused to acknowledge it. Doesn't that say something to you? Granted, I should have given up on you in this debate long ago, and it's partly my fault for being too stubborn to let it go. But hell, it's a message board and I'm bored, and if you're going to insist on continuing to push your opinions as if they are unquestionable facts and then turn a blind eye to actual facts, I'm going to keep calling you out on it.

[Joe Jets fan]

I want both but if one then it is Edwards. Two reasons, he blocks and HE WANTS TO BE HERE!! Holmes wants to play where they will pay him the most. I hope if he does not sign with us he goes to Cinncy.

BTW Edwards was thrown to 18 times the first four games.

Keller was thrown to 30

The next four games Edwards 27

Keller 23

Holmes 26

also remember Holmes did not have to play the Balt. game where no one was getting any stats. I think they are very close in WR value, but I still want the guy that wants to play for the Jets.

[Lil Bit Special]

nice to see everyone fighting again.

[bitonti]

Next NFL Suspension:

Braylon Edwards - First career suspension

Santonio Holmes - See you in a year, dumbass

Forget either of our opinions, the bolded above is the indisputable, undeniable 100% factual truth of the situation.

really it's a factual truth that Holmes is a dumbass? Braylon Edwards isn't exactly Steven Hawking.

let's just face it for whatever reason you like Edwards better than Holmes... on a personal level.

[Bleedin Green]

really it's a factual truth that Holmes is a dumbass? Braylon Edwards isn't exactly Steven Hawking.

let's just face it for whatever reason you like Edwards better than Holmes... on a personal level.

LOL. You're too much man. Truly unbelievable.

[bitonti]

LOL. You're too much man. Truly unbelievable.

so when the players vote Holmes in the top 100 (and the fans too) but not Edwards... they are all wrong?

[flgreen]

LOL. You're too much man. Truly unbelievable.

Interesting thing is, of the fans on this site, and most of them watch every Jets play, some several times, 80% of them want Edwards back. The fans on the poll most likely only read what the scribes, who also most likely don't watch every Jet game, have to say vote for Holmes.

Even the players. Most of them don't play against Holmes. Even teams that do the only ones affected are the CB's

Holmes has a lot of name recognition because of the Super Bowl MVP, and the whole world saw the great catch.

They didn't watch all the plays by both players this past season. The fans on this site did, and want Edwards back.

Sorry BG I meant to quote Bit

[Bleedin Green]

so when the players vote Holmes in the top 100 (and the fans too) but not Edwards... they are all wrong?

This is really pointless. I can go around in circles all day repeating facts to you again and again, and all you're going to see is what you want to see, and pick apart insignificant parts of my posts in order to ignore the facts that hurt your argument, while trying to invalidate everything I say based solely on your personal disagreement with part of my opinion. The fact that you once again ignored Holmes suspension status vs Edwards and nitpicked on the fact that I referred to him as a dumbass (which I have repeatedly referred to Edwards in this thread as well), shows you're just incapable of accepting the reality of the situation. You and everyone else in the world can prefer Holmes for all I care, and I don't still don't have to agree with you.

Your refusal to acknowledge facts is what is my point of contention. You try to bash Edwards at every turn while ignoring the numerous facts that completely contradict your arguments and then praise Holmes endlessly while ignoring the facts that don't agree with your view. I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion, but when it comes to debate I expect the other person to be capable of at least acknowledging blatant hard facts and not just ignore them over and over because they hurt their case. And I certainly don't except resorting to blatant falsehoods about the opposing viewpoint as if that somehow proves a point.

Clearly at this point this is an exercise in futility, but what can I say, that didn't stop me from years and years of arguing with the Penningtologists on JI, so why stop now, right?

[bitonti]

Clearly at this point this is an exercise in futility, but what can I say, that didn't stop me from years and years of arguing with the Penningtologists on JI, so why stop now, right?

Just clarify something for me... Edwards deserves to be in the top 100 and Holmes doesn't? Or they should both be there but Edwards higher on the list? or neither one are top 100 players? Seriously I want to know where do you value this player. not in terms of YPC but in terms of overall rank in the league. Is Braylon Edwards a top 10 WR in your opinion?

[Bleedin Green]

Just clarify something for me... Edwards deserves to be in the top 100 and Holmes doesn't? Or they should both be there but Edwards higher on the list? or neither one are top 100 players? Seriously I want to know where do you value this player. not in terms of YPC but in terms of overall rank in the league. Is Braylon Edwards a top 10 WR in your opinion?

Outside of the real obvious top players in the league, it's not exactly easy to just come up off the top of your head who would be your top 100 without actually creating a list. That said, when the list was announced the only Jets players I expected on that list were Revis, Mangold, Brick... in that order. If you told me to guess off the top of my head, I would imagine neither player would make my top 100 list, and maybe neither would even rank as top 10 at WR in all honesty. That's not to say that if doing a list like that, and evaluating all things in a vacuum and not accounting for the team it's for, comparative value of different skill sets, or any other thing like that, I might even agree that Holmes should be higher ranked of the two.

That still doesn't change the fact that I think Holmes suspension history is a major risk (much more so than Braylon's history) and for the NY Jets, Braylon is the player I would prefer to see kept. I'm not just talking about how they rank on some imaginary scale, my preference is accounting for the players particular strengths and weaknesses, how they compliment other players on the team, their commitment to the team, their attitude, etc, etc. I've said it multiple times, it's very possible that Santonio is better at what he does than Braylon is at what he does, I just find Braylon's skill set to be more valuable and more difficult to replace, particularly for the Jets. When you consider that outside factors such as Braylon's repeated insistence of wanting to stay, including taking a discount, and the comparison of both of their repeated off-the-fields issues, which in my mind Holmes is a much bigger risk in that department (again, based on his bluntly stating he will not change his behavior, and the next failed test is a year suspension), that takes my already existing preference for Braylon and makes me pretty clear on which player I think should be the priority for the Jets.

As I've said a number of times before though, and I will say again, that doesn't mean Holmes isn't a very good player in his own right, and I would love nothing more than BOTH of them to be NY Jets for many years to come. And that's the difference and where I take issue with your posts. I'm apparently not allowed to compliment Braylon without it being some sort of major slight to Holmes, meanwhile you've made repeated factually inaccurate statements about his abilities as well as referred to him being replaceable by practice squad nobodies. Then on the flip side, you can't bring yourself to acknowledge anything that might possibly cast Holmes as anything but infallible. It's like essentially I'm saying that I think both are good players, but admittedly with some flaws, who've certainly done some dumb things, but in the end, would like to see both on this team, although I do definitely prefer Edwards. Meanwhile you're basically saying that Holmes is flawless in his abilities and he has done absolutely nothing wrong, while Braylon is a talentless serial criminal. Yet somehow in all of this, you see me as being the one with the unreasonable point of view? I just don't get it.

[Barcs]

Interesting thing is, of the fans on this site, and most of them watch every Jets play, some several times, 80% of them want Edwards back. The fans on the poll most likely only read what the scribes, who also most likely don't watch every Jet game, have to say vote for Holmes.

That is such a load of crap. "Durrr, anyone who doesn't agree with me must not watch all of the Jets games, and most fans on here think Edwards is better, therefor he is" Haha 2 fallacies in one post. I've watched every single game (many more than once), and I feel Holmes is the better playmaker. As far as off the field issues, I don't really care as much, but if you have a choice between someone who drives drunk with team mates in the car and a guy who failed one drug test for smoking weed once(not cocaine, steroids or anything really bad), it's obvious which one is a bigger liability. Smoking a joint once in your free time doesn't get people killed. I still feel they are both great. Edwards is more a blocking powerhouse big man that can often power his way through defenders for extra yards, while Holmes is quicker and gets his extra yardage by deaking out opponents and making fast darting moves. Both have their intangibles, but I think the real debate should be about whether we keep BOTH or one + cromartie. I would easily choose both over one of them plus Cro or Brad Smith.

[flgreen]

That is such a load of crap. "Durrr, anyone who doesn't agree with me must not watch all of the Jets games, and most fans on here think Edwards is better, therefor he is" Haha 2 fallacies in one post. I've watched every single game (many more than once), and I feel Holmes is the better playmaker. As far as off the field issues, I don't really care as much, but if you have a choice between someone who drives drunk with team mates in the car and a guy who failed one drug test for smoking weed once(not cocaine, steroids or anything really bad), it's obvious which one is a bigger liability. Smoking a joint once in your free time doesn't get people killed. I still feel they are both great. Edwards is more a blocking powerhouse big man that can often power his way through defenders for extra yards, while Holmes is quicker and gets his extra yardage by deaking out opponents and making fast darting moves. Both have their intangibles, but I think the real debate should be about whether we keep BOTH or one + cromartie. I would easily choose both over one of them plus Cro or Brad Smith.

.

Speaking of a load of crap. You are certainly entitled to you opinion, but you are one of 13 out of a total of 57 votes cast.

It is certainly not a load of crap that the people on this site watch a hell of a lot more Jets football then people in a national poll

[Bleedin Green]

That is such a load of crap. "Durrr, anyone who doesn't agree with me must not watch all of the Jets games, and most fans on here think Edwards is better, therefor he is" Haha 2 fallacies in one post. I've watched every single game (many more than once), and I feel Holmes is the better playmaker. As far as off the field issues, I don't really care as much, but if you have a choice between someone who drives drunk with team mates in the car and a guy who failed one drug test for smoking weed once(not cocaine, steroids or anything really bad), it's obvious which one is a bigger liability. Smoking a joint once in your free time doesn't get people killed. I still feel they are both great. Edwards is more a blocking powerhouse big man that can often power his way through defenders for extra yards, while Holmes is quicker and gets his extra yardage by deaking out opponents and making fast darting moves. Both have their intangibles, but I think the real debate should be about whether we keep BOTH or one + cromartie. I would easily choose both over one of them plus Cro or Brad Smith.

In all seriousness, read this thread and tell me which side of the argument is presenting facts and which side is playing the "I think he's better so he is" game, because it's certainly not going the way you seem to think it is. You prefer Holmes and that's fine, and I absolutely agree with you that the Jets should try to keep both, but your post is way off on what's been going on in this discussion.

[F.Chowds]

it's obvious which one is a bigger liability.

Really? So the fact that if Holmes has one more positive UA he is suspend for a entire year does not make him a bigger liability to the Jets organization?

[#27TheDominator]

In all seriousness, read this thread and tell me which side of the argument is presenting facts and which side is playing the "I think he's better so he is" game, because it's certainly not going the way you seem to think it is. You prefer Holmes and that's fine, and I absolutely agree with you that the Jets should try to keep both, but your post is way off on what's been going on in this discussion.

Disagree. The Edwards faction posted stats which I believe show that Holmes is superior. Less drops over the past 3 years, More TDs and similar catches last season despite missing 4 games, etc. I've been hearing Edwards blocks better and he wants to be a Jet and remember that catch he made against Indy. I also heard that Holmes consistently quit at the end of games when the guy won games for the team on the last possession on consective weeks. Saying you watch the games and we don't doesn't make it true.

[Bleedin Green]

Disagree. The Edwards faction posted stats which I believe show that Holmes is superior. Less drops over the past 3 years, More TDs and similar catches last season despite missing 4 games, etc. I've been hearing Edwards blocks better and he wants to be a Jet and remember that catch he made against Indy. I also heard that Holmes consistently quit at the end of games when the guy won games for the team on the last possession on consective weeks. Saying you watch the games and we don't doesn't make it true.

Perhaps your interpretation of those stats is that Holmes is superior, and that's all well and good, but that wasn't my point. My point was that whether or not you agree with the conclusions, more often than not in this thread, it has been the people who prefer Edwards who have repeatedly given statistical backup to their arguments while some of the people who prefer Holmes have not only made no attempt to do so, but just completely ignored every argument that has favored Edwards. That is, unless I missed the part where somebody compared Holmes to a practice squad player or refused to acknowledge that Edwards has any sort of troubled past whatsoever. And while this may not apply to you as an individual, when getting into a debate people are expected to support their argument with facts, and if they can't be bothered to do so, but rather base their entire argument on conjecture and subjective comments, then the opposition isn't going to have any reason to respect their opinion. The funny thing is I like Holmes as a player a lot, but I've yet to be given any real fact-based explanation as to why I should so obviously prefer him to Edwards, other than that some people say he is.

And I wasn't the one who made this point, but I will clarify your last statement. I'm pretty sure nobody said anything about anyone in this thread watching games vs not, somebody made the point of the disparity in the voting on a Jets message board (the poll in this thread, of people who clearly watch Jets games on a very regular basis, greatly favors Edwards) vs a general polling of the NFL (the top 100 NFL players list, done by people who most likely do not watch all Jets games, which ranks Holmes and not Edwards). It's true and if nothing else, it's an interesting observation.

[#27TheDominator]

Discussion sucks. Too reasonable.

[T0mShane]

Does it matter to anyone that Santonio Holmes, greatest receiver everrrrrrrr, was practically dumped on the street by a team that's in contention every year and might be the best talent evaluation team in the league?

[T0mShane]

Just clarify something for me... Edwards deserves to be in the top 100 and Holmes doesn't? Or they should both be there but Edwards higher on the list? or neither one are top 100 players? Seriously I want to know where do you value this player. not in terms of YPC but in terms of overall rank in the league. Is Braylon Edwards a top 10 WR in your opinion?

Wasn't Holmes ranked behind Welker and the immortal Dwayne Bowe? Ima go out on a limb and guess that most players didn't exactly burn the midnight oil trying to get their lists in order.

[Bleedin Green]

Wasn't Holmes ranked behind Welker and the immortal Dwayne Bowe? Ima go out on a limb and guess that most players didn't exactly burn the midnight oil trying to get their lists in order.

Don't forget also behind WR extraordinaire Devin Hester.

[stoicsentry]

Edwards all the way!

[#27TheDominator]

Does it matter to anyone that Santonio Holmes, greatest receiver everrrrrrrr, was practically dumped on the street by a team that's in contention every year and might be the best talent evaluation team in the league?

Did I miss where the Jets gave up 3 hall of famers for Edwards? Holmes was going to be under contract for 12 games. No shock there'd be a discount.

[JustInFudge]

Does it matter to anyone that Santonio Holmes, greatest receiver everrrrrrrr, was practically dumped on the street by a team that's in contention every year and might be the best talent evaluation team in the league?

Whats worse...being dumped by the Steelers for Mike Wallace or being dumped by the Browns for Chansi Stuckey?

[Bleedin Green]

Whats worse...being dumped by the Steelers for Mike Wallace or being dumped by the Browns for Chansi Stuckey?

Don't be ridiculous, this is just beyond stupid and such an insulting argument you're trying to make here.

Chansi Stuckey AND Jason Trusnik.

[T0mShane]

Did I miss where the Jets gave up 3 hall of famers for Edwards?

Because Eric Mangini trading Braylon during his rebuilding-with-boy-scouts frenzy is the same thing as the Steelers dumping their Super Bowl MVP during a Super Bowl run.

Holmes was going to be under contract for 12 games. No shock there'd be a discount.

A fifth round pick for Jerry Rice Jr. isn't a "discount." It's a giveaway.

[T0mShane]

Whats worse...being dumped by the Steelers for Mike Wallace or being dumped by the Browns for Chansi Stuckey?

[flgreen]

Screw both of them sign Sidney Rice

[Vudu]

So is it a forgone conclusion that my Braylon will not be back? I swear Im gonna be super pissed!

[Joe Jets fan]

Its starting to look like Holmes is the one to be signed first.