Courtney Upshaw or Melvin Ingram?

[bitonti]

The way the team is constructed, with Bryan Thomas reaching the end of his contract (and with the Achilles tear, possibly the end of his career), Calvin Pace here for 1 year more at the most. Westerman backup. Maybin Pass rush only. McIntyre special teams... it becomes clear that OLB will be a likely first round target for the Jets. If there are players there.

Simple question, assume these are the only 2 choices, and both are somehow available at 16, who do you wish the Jets to draft?

[RyanBe_Tweetin]

I think Ingram is a lot more explosive and athletic than upshaw is. Even though I think neither one is really that good, I'll take Ingram over Upshaw all day.

[JustInFudge]

Upshaw.

Havent we had enough expirements with trying to make a natural hand in the dirt 4-3 DE into an OLB?

[Jetscode1]

Rather have Ingram if between these two...

[SenorGato]

Not really a fan of either...been saying Ingram lately so I'll stick with it. Another day I might go Upshaw...

Really though, give me Vinny Curry. Oh, and I like Hightower better than Upshaw here.

[JetsFanInDenver]

Every year there is one player that is projected to be drafted Top 10 and fall out. At #16, the JETS are in a pretty good position to snatch that pick up.

[bitonti]

these players were ranked #16 and #17 in Frank Cooney's top 64

16. OLB/DE Melvin Ingram

South Carolina, 6-2, 276 pounds

Ingram showed versatility in college, playing both ends and even moving inside at defensive tackle. His combination of strength, leverage and speed made him a pass rush threat from all those positions and scouts think they might have yet another position for him — outside linebacker. Last season, Ingram made All-SEC after leading the Gamecocks with 13½ tackles for a loss and 8½ sacks. He also intercepted two passes and scored three touchdowns, including a 68-yarder on a fake punt in a win at Georgia. Ingram finished his career with 21½ sacks, fourth in team history. Originally recruited as a linebacker out of

North Carolina, he played 12 games as a freshman when he even returned five kickoffs for an 18-yard average. After missing 2008 with a broken foot, he was move to the defensive line in 2009. "Wherever they point me, I'm ready to go there," Ingram said when asked if he was ready to play as a 3-4 outside linebacker in the pros.

17. OLB Courtney Upshaw

Alabama, 6-2, 273 pounds

Scouts debate where Upshaw best fits in an NFL defense, but based on his play in college he will probably wind up in a quarterback's mug regardless of where he lines up. Used as an edge rusher, sometimes as the Tide's so-called "Jack" linebacker and sometimes as an end, Upshaw thrashes blockers with great hand and arm action and shows ample speed and agility to find his way into the backfield. He has instincts beyond that of a pure pass rusher, with an uncommon awareness for draws, screens, counters and reverses. Although he was not asked to drop into coverage often at Alabama, he has a fluid athleticism that may allow him to adapt to such a demand. In Alabama's 49-7 thrashing of Michigan State in last year's

Capital One Bowl, Upshaw was voted MVP after a pair of sacks, five tackles (three for a loss) and a forced fumble.

[JustInFudge]

Interestingly, the poll has Upshaw leading but the responses say Ingram.

Seriously though, why would anyone want to try and convert another DE in college to play OLB? Arent you kind of sick of seeing that fail?

Give me the guy that doesnt require learning a new position.

[SenorGato]

Interestingly, the poll has Upshaw leading but the responses say Ingram.

Seriously though, why would anyone want to try and convert another DE in college to play OLB? Arent you kind of sick of seeing that fail?

Give me the guy that doesnt require learning a new position.

Can you name the 3-4 OLBs in the NFL who played primarily LB in college? Conversion worked just fine for Aldon Smith and Ryan Kerrigan just last year.

[bitonti]

Conversion worked just fine for Aldon Smith and Ryan Kerrigan just last year.

It's a good point and you've raised it several times. maybe the Jets lack the coaching staff to make that happen. Aldon Smith's success doesn't prove Vinny Curry will be able to play linebacker. Clay Matthews was a college LB and that turned out pretty damn good.

from my perspective either Ingram or Upshaw work fine at OLB. Upshaw cause he played 4 years of LB and Ingram cause he was a high school LB and also played a ton of LB in various schemes at South Carolina.

My question is, the board falls this way, they are both there, who would you prefer. It is true there are 10 responses but only 3 votes, please vote!

[SenorGato]

It's a good point and you've raised it several times. maybe the Jets lack the coaching staff to make that happen. Aldon Smith's success doesn't prove Vinny Curry will be able to play linebacker. Clay Matthews was a college LB and that turned out pretty damn good.

from my perspective either Ingram or Upshaw work fine at OLB. Upshaw cause he played 4 years of LB and Ingram cause he was a high school LB and also played a ton of LB in various schemes at South Carolina.

My question is, the board falls this way, they are both there, who would you prefer. It is true there are 10 responses but only 3 votes, please vote!

So that's one...I'll even give you Ahmad Brooks, a college 3-4 ILB who played 3-4 ILB until last year or the year before the 49ers moved him outside. So that makes two...I'll even throw out that Matthews did put his hand on the ground often at USC because yeah...mostly he was a LB.

Anyway so while Matthews has been damn good and Brooks has been very good himself...we've got:

DeMarcus Ware

Calvin Pace

Terrell Suggs

Ryan Kerrigan

Aldon Smith

Bryan Thomas

Lamarr Woodley

Shaun Phillips

Anthony Spencer

Brian Orakpo

Wimbley

Connor Barwin

Brooks Reed

Michael Johnson (for his rookie year, I think he's back at DE for the Bengals)

Cameron Wake

Willie McGinnest

Lawrence Taylor

Charles Haley

Mike Vrabel

Tamba Hali

Jason Taylor

All college DEs...some even pro DEs early in their pro career...

Also, bit, the Jets lack the coaches to make it happen? I hiiiiiiiiiiighly doubt that. What premium young talent were they given right out of the draft box? None.

[#27TheDominator]

I think the combine answers a bunch of these questions. Of course plenty of DEs convert to OLB. It makes perfect sense. Mostly you know what you are getting when you send them after the passer or ask them to take on blocks. The key is watching them work out so that you know whether they can backpedal and play in coverage and how they run in the shuttles so that you get an idea of their change of direction.

[JustInFudge]

Can you name the 3-4 OLBs in the NFL who played primarily LB in college? Conversion worked just fine for Aldon Smith and Ryan Kerrigan just last year.

Yeah, this is so true. Maybe I'm just jaded because of the failed attempts by the Jets.

You're right though, pretty much need to find DE's who can convert. Still hate it though. I'd rather not use a high pick on a guy that is going to learn a new position.

[SenorGato]

Yeah, this is so true. Maybe I'm just jaded because of the failed attempts by the Jets.

You're right though, pretty much need to find DE's who can convert. Still hate it though. I'd rather not use a high pick on a guy that is going to learn a new position.

Like 27 said it's all about:

1. Being able to rush the passer.

2. The best athletes.

Usually the best pass rushers are the guys who are the best movers/natural athletes so they're natural conversion candidates.

[bLguerriero1]

ingram has a higher ceiling.. upshaw is a safer pick... i dont think the reward outweighs the risk, id go to upshaw

[derp]

I prefer Upshaw. Think Ingram's got a little more natural athleticism, but I really like the way Upshaw bends the edge and the fact that he's got experience in a 3-4. The fact that a good amount of Ingram's production came when lined up at tackle and he doesn't look quite as good coming off the edge concerns me a bit. It's likely that Rex would move Ingram around to take advantage of his versatility, but think Upshaw's a more natural edge rusher and a skill set I think the team is really lacking. I do think Ingram's going to start to get hyped up more after the combine though.

[bitonti]

Also, bit, the Jets lack the coaches to make it happen? I hiiiiiiiiiiighly doubt that. What premium young talent were they given right out of the draft box?

you put a list of successful 3-4 OLB that were all DE. I could make a list of unsuccessful 3-4 OLB that were DE and it would be longer.

that's the problem, no one's saying that it's impossible, but it's a coinflip at best. I'm being generous granting 50/50 odds, the chances are probably slimmer. that's the attraction of Upshaw doesn't have coinflip odds that he can play linebacker. He is a linebacker. Ingram was a linebacker in HS and he played it a ton at SC. He's probably riskier than Upshaw but he's safe compared to Curry or Perry.

we can argue this until the cows come home but it's not about what you or I will do, it's about what the accountant that runs the team will do. He's not taking another DE conversion in rd1 as long as he's in charge. he got burned too bad by Gholston. That's why Vinny Curry, Mercilius, Perry etc are not in the conversation. they are all too risky. Can they pan out? Certainly! it's possible. Just not a likely choice for this team with this GM. it's not by accident that Tanny signed Westerman undrafted, McIntyre from CFL, Maybin from the street etc. he's taking high risk players at low prices cause if they go all Gholston on him, he's risked very little. note you had Cam Wake and Mike Vrabel on your list, do I think Tanny will sign a CFL pass rusher or a former 5th round DE who is on the street? YES that is more likely.

[JonEJet]

Ingram...his upside is much higher

[Jetscode1]

The way the team is constructed, with Bryan Thomas reaching the end of his contract (and with the Achilles tear, possibly the end of his career), Calvin Pace here for 1 year more at the most. Westerman backup. Maybin Pass rush only. McIntyre special teams... it becomes clear that OLB will be a likely first round target for the Jets. If there are players there.

Simple question, assume these are the only 2 choices, and both are somehow available at 16, who do you wish the Jets to draft?

you put a list of successful 3-4 OLB that were all DE. I could make a list of unsuccessful 3-4 OLB that were DE and it would be longer.

that's the problem, no one's saying that it's impossible, but it's a coinflip at best. I'm being generous granting 50/50 odds, the chances are probably slimmer. that's the attraction of Upshaw doesn't have coinflip odds that he can play linebacker. He is a linebacker. Ingram was a linebacker in HS and he played it a ton at SC. He's probably riskier than Upshaw but he's safe compared to Curry or Perry.

we can argue this until the cows come home but it's not about what you or I will do, it's about what the accountant that runs the team will do. He's not taking another DE conversion in rd1 as long as he's in charge. he got burned too bad by Gholston. That's why Vinny Curry, Mercilius, Perry etc are not in the conversation. they are all too risky. Can they pan out? Certainly! it's possible. Just not a likely choice for this team with this GM. it's not by accident that Tanny signed Westerman undrafted, McIntyre from CFL, Maybin from the street etc. he's taking high risk players at low prices cause if they go all Gholston on him, he's risked very little. note you had Cam Wake and Mike Vrabel on your list, do I think Tanny will sign a CFL pass rusher or a former 5th round DE who is on the street? YES that is more likely.

Thought your original question wanted to know what we would do?

Anyway, Tanny may lack the sack to draft OLB in the first but if that's the case he needs to grow a pair or move on...if Ingram or Upshaw are the highest remaining on his board he needs to turn the card in...

Thought Curry, Perry, and Mercilius would project to 2nd round or later...for that matter, I wouldn't mind Tanny drafting McClellin or Massaquoi on the second day.

[bitonti]

Thought your original question wanted to know what we would do?

yes but within the confines of the 2 players in the poll.I don't think it's realistic to project the NY Jets use a high draft pick on a DE who never played OLB.

If what you would do is draft Vinny Curry in rd 2 that's a whole nother thread.

it should also be noted that John Conner and McElroy are the only 2 SEC players on the Jets. So this whole thread might not be realistic if the Jets don't want SEC players for whatever reason.

[Jetscode1]

yes but within the confines of the 2 players in the poll.I don't think it's realistic to project the NY Jets use a high draft pick on a DE who never played OLB.

If what you would do is draft Vinny Curry in rd 2 that's a whole nother thread.

it should also be noted that John Conner and McElroy are the only 2 SEC players on the Jets. So this whole thread might not be realistic if the Jets don't want SEC players for whatever reason.

That always pissed me off as well...my guess he goes with DeCastro (makes too much sense (Moore had an off year + Slauson return from injury) then he'll go small school and hope Curry or Iloka last until 47.

You high on Curry? Good value there?

[bitonti]

That always pissed me off as well...my guess he goes with DeCastro (makes too much sense (Moore had an off year + Slauson return from injury) then he'll go small school and hope Curry or Iloka last until 47.

You high on Curry? Good value there?

I really like both Curry and Illoka in rd 2 or 3. They could do alot worse than those players. Curry is a project at OLB but he's probably the best pass rusher in this draft, not including Coples. Iloka fits Rex's System perfectly and i think he will impress alot of people at the combine.

[BroadwayJoe12]

I'd most likely grab Upshaw, as I saw firsthand his destruction of my Tigers, however I would still like to go the Giants' route and grab another DE in the second or third. I know we need safety as well, but when it comes to passrushers, it seems as though you can't have enough.

[afosomf]

will be shocked if Jills pass on Upshaw

[TheDon66]

Doubt Upshaw is available at 16, but as a natural OLB who played in a 3-4 and looks like a Lamar Woodley clone, that would be my pick. That being said I also like Ingram and wouldn't be disappointed with him.

I don't think the Jets would draft a guard early. Guard isn't a money position, and not one you use a 1st half of the 1st round pick on.

[SenorGato]

Hm...I might be turning around on Upshaw. I still want to see what kind of workout numbers he puts up, but I'm going to stop completely ruling him out as a 3-4 OLB during combine week. No reason not to to...I still have plenty of questions about his speed and general athleticism, but he does eem to have a better floor than most guys. In that way he makes complete sense, and with Thomas probably out they're going to be looking for a 3-4 OLB prospect with a high floor. It all makes sense now, I just had to figure it out for myself and I was not allowing that. STILL, he has questions about what kind of athlete he is as he still might be a better 4-3 DE prospect than a 3-4 OLB prospect.

He makes alot of sense paired with Vinny Curry in the second. I smiley wink but I mean it g'dammit.

[TheDon66]

I LOVE Vinny Curry. The only problem to me is that everyone loves him. Kind of wish his stock hadn't taken off as much as it has. I believe he's up to No. 25 on Kiper's Big Board.

It will be interesting to see him in some of the position-specific drills at the combine to see how he looks dropping in coverage, moving in space, etc.

[SenorGato]

you put a list of successful 3-4 OLB that were all DE. I could make a list of unsuccessful 3-4 OLB that were DE and it would be longer.

that's the problem, no one's saying that it's impossible, but it's a coinflip at best. I'm being generous granting 50/50 odds, the chances are probably slimmer. that's the attraction of Upshaw doesn't have coinflip odds that he can play linebacker. He is a linebacker. Ingram was a linebacker in HS and he played it a ton at SC. He's probably riskier than Upshaw but he's safe compared to Curry or Perry.

we can argue this until the cows come home but it's not about what you or I will do, it's about what the accountant that runs the team will do. He's not taking another DE conversion in rd1 as long as he's in charge. he got burned too bad by Gholston. That's why Vinny Curry, Mercilius, Perry etc are not in the conversation. they are all too risky. Can they pan out? Certainly! it's possible. Just not a likely choice for this team with this GM. it's not by accident that Tanny signed Westerman undrafted, McIntyre from CFL, Maybin from the street etc. he's taking high risk players at low prices cause if they go all Gholston on him, he's risked very little. note you had Cam Wake and Mike Vrabel on your list, do I think Tanny will sign a CFL pass rusher or a former 5th round DE who is on the street? YES that is more likely.

I think your argument has finally sunk in, though the whole HS position thing is kind of weak for Ingram. Gholston was a HS LB. If you're big enough to bring guys down and fast enough to get there in HS you can play LB. Still that's nitpicking and I admit you kind of owned me in the logic here. All you need to be completely right...so maybe I concede too early...is for Upshaw to work out like a LB (though I realize not everyone needs to see this).

Still want a big time pass rusher though, because I don't see Upshaw as that kind of guy. Vinny Curry is the winner for me there, and I don't think he's making it to 47 or 48 w/e it is. I'm a fan of moving around in this draft if we have as many supplemental picks as I read we might get (4 between rounds 5-7).

[SenorGato]

I LOVE Vinny Curry. The only problem to me is that everyone loves him. Kind of wish his stock hadn't taken off as much as it has. I believe he's up to No. 25 on Kiper's Big Board.

It will be interesting to see him in some of the position-specific drills at the combine to see how he looks dropping in coverage, moving in space, etc.

Yeah I don't know why I thought he'd remain under the radar. Hell, he had alot of hype last year and really was/is one of the most well scouted of the guys in this draft.

I think he's a really strong workout away from getting picked in the teens. He's the 2nd best pass rusher in this draft, but he doesn't have Coples' "he got lazy" knock.

[SenorGato]

Does anyone even buy Upshaw in coverage or is there just a benefit of the doubt situation with him?

[SenorGato]

Another athlete/pass rusher growing on me is Chandler Jones.

[TheDon66]

Another athlete/pass rusher growing on me is Chandler Jones.

This guy is interesting. He's Jonny "Bones" Jones brother, the UFC light heavyweight champ. Very athletic family, their brother Arthur plays for the Ravens, so the bloodline is there. Just like Bones he's got realy long arms, which is good for a pass rusher.

[Matt39]

So this whole thread might not be realistic if the Jets don't want SEC players for whatever reason.

I highly doubt this is their thinking.

You;d hope they want the best player....from an individual talent stadpoint, the SEC doesnt rule the NFL like you'd think when you watch a CBS broadcast.

If the SEC guy is considered the best, he'll be drafted.

[bitonti]

. Still that's nitpicking and I admit you kind of owned me in the logic here.

not trying to own anyone with logic, but I appreciate the sentiment. I can grant to you that Vinny Curry is an awesome player. I just think a 3-4 team will have a different grade on him than a 4-3 team. He has the most career sacks of anyone in this draft. He is a natural pass rusher. Coples might be the only player who can pass rush better than Curry in this draft.

also wouldn't have a problem if the Jets went Upshaw in 1 and Curry in 2. Altho I do agree Curry is very close to the 1st round and it might not even be a possibility, depending on workouts. We could say the same about Upshaw, it might take a miracle for him to last to 16.

[SenorGato]

not trying to own anyone with logic, but I appreciate the sentiment. I can grant to you that Vinny Curry is an awesome player. I just think a 3-4 team will have a different grade on him than a 4-3 team. He has the most career sacks of anyone in this draft. He is a natural pass rusher. Coples might be the only player who can pass rush better than Curry in this draft.

also wouldn't have a problem if the Jets went Upshaw in 1 and Curry in 2. Altho I do agree Curry is very close to the 1st round and it might not even be a possibility, depending on workouts. We could say the same about Upshaw, it might take a miracle for him to last to 16.

So bit do you really think Upshaw can play the cover roles he might be asked to play in the NFL? Do you think 4-3 teams will ignore him?

Can't help but notice how rarely he's asked to work away from the LOS in college even as a LB.