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The All Revis Trade Discussion Threads are the Same Discussion Thread - MERGED NUMEROUS TIMES

jetfan718

By jetfan718
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SenorGato

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But a team doesn't need a CB to be the best player in the NFL to win or contend for a super bowl.

You don't need the best player at any position to win or contend for the Super Bowl in the NFL, but it sure helps.

The Jets with Cromartie and Revis went 8-8. The Jets with Revis went 9-7. The Jets with Revis went 4-12.

He just makes them a contender if the Jets had a great QB, a great offense, and a great defense. The Jets record kind of proves that.

They were 11-5 with Revis in 2010 without a great QB or great offense. That 9-7 team ended up a game away from the Super Bowl without a great offense or a great QB.

Winning teams probably won't give Revis 16 million per year. Teams like the Browns might.

#Science? Winning teams have great players, and Revis is a great player.

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pedro55

pedro55

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You don't need the best player at any position to win or contend for the Super Bowl in the NFL, but it sure helps.

They were 11-5 with Revis in 2010 without a great QB or great offense. That 9-7 team ended up a game away from the Super Bowl without a great offense or a great QB.

#Science? Winning teams have great players, and Revis is a great player.

The Ravens and 49ers are in the super bowl this year without Revis.. The Giants and Patriots were in the super bowl last year without Revis.

The Steelers and Packers were in the super bowl without Revis. The Steelers beat the Jets with Revis. The Colts and Saints were in the super bowl without Revis. The Colts beat the Jets with Revis.

Winning teams usually have great QBs. Kapernick and Flacco might not be the HOF QBs, but they had great playoff runs this year.

The Broncos have Champ Bailey. Who once was considered as good as Revis. What has he ever won?

There is no doubt Revis makes the Jets better. But going from 6-10 to 8-8 does what for anybody? If the Jets pay Revis $16 Million per year it means they are going to have a hard time paying for studs at other positions.

And that Steelers game, what happened? They didn't show up for most of the game, and then when the defense needed to make a stop, the Steelers and Big Ben beat Revis and that Jets defense. The offense never got the ball back and that was that.

And take a look at Sanchez's playoff numbers that year they went 11-5.

5 TDs, 1 INT. 60 percent completion percentage, a 97.3 QB rating. Yeah he was horrible and it was only Revis and the defense why they won.

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pedro55

pedro55

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You don't need the best player at any position to win or contend for the Super Bowl in the NFL, but it sure helps.

They were 11-5 with Revis in 2010 without a great QB or great offense. That 9-7 team ended up a game away from the Super Bowl without a great offense or a great QB.

#Science? Winning teams have great players, and Revis is a great player.

And the truth is, if Sanchez was a legit QB this season, the Jets wind up 9-7 or 10-6 and make the playoffs. Without Revis.

So as great as Revis is, he isn't a star player who turns franchises around. The Jets lose because they have a bad QB. Trading Revis doesn't suddenly make the Jets have a great QB. But paying Revis $16 Million per year sure makes it a hell of a lot harder to have good players at other positions.

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And the truth is, if Sanchez was a legit QB this season, the Jets wind up 9-7 or 10-6 and make the playoffs. Without Revis.

So as great as Revis is, he isn't a star player who turns franchises around. The Jets lose because they have a bad QB. Trading Revis doesn't suddenly make the Jets have a great QB. But paying Revis $16 Million per year sure makes it a hell of a lot harder to have good players at other positions.

Yes, and the Pats once went 11-5 without Brady. That does't mean the first thing they should have done is trade Brady to make room for his cheaper replacement. The truth is that Sanchez was not a good QB and the team went 6-10. If Sanchez was a legit QB then this cap issue is even less real than it already is, Revis fits perfectly into the plans, and the Jets have themselves stars on both sides of the ball.

What's making it alot harder to have good players is that they have not drafted enough of them. That is not connected to Revis. You put him on the market and any team with any interest in winning will be looking to acquire him. Trading Revis doesn't suddenly improve the Jets, and the chances of it gradually improving the Jets are overstated/overrated at best. Great franchises keep their great players, period. Having Revis does not halt the search for a QB. The Jets are certainly not going to run into one on the FA market that will break the bank and force Revis out. The next QB will be through the draft, and being a draft pick will be cheap through the meat of Revis' next deal.

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The Ravens and 49ers are in the super bowl this year without Revis.. The Giants and Patriots were in the super bowl last year without Revis.

The Steelers and Packers were in the super bowl without Revis. The Steelers beat the Jets with Revis. The Colts and Saints were in the super bowl without Revis. The Colts beat the Jets with Revis.

They're also in the Super Bowl without these great QBs I keep having parroted to me as the one and only way to win in this league. The Giants don't have a Revis, but they do spend more than anyone else on defense including almost 30 million in total on their DBs. Rolle, a safety, made 9 million last year. It's not going to get cheaper for high quality talent, but it will remain just as hard to find. The Packers have the best QB in the league, the Steelers won a Super Bowl with a rookie QB just playing competent ball, and the Jets have actually beat the Steelers before (with Revis).

Meanwhile the great QBs that are Manning and Brady fell to Joe Flacco. The Colin Kapernick QB'd 49ers took down Aaron Rodgers. A 5'10" rookie took the Seahawks to the playoffs with smart, efficient, athletic ball rather than a giant check and tons of cap room. Smart, progressive franchises aren't sitting on their hands crying about how their great players aren't QB so all hope is lost. It's a loser mentality.

The 49ers and Ravens are horrible examples in this anyway. The best players on either offenses are a TE (Davis) and a RB (Rice).

Winning teams usually have great QBs. Kapernick and Flacco might not be the HOF QBs, but they had great playoff runs this year.

So you don't need a great QB, you need great QB performance. This board has told me for half a decade+ can mostly be manufactured through design, plans, and calls. They went out and hired a guy who's upped the completion% and general production of multiple QBs, and comes from arguably the greatest QB coaching tree in the history of the league. GMs and front offices can't sit back and cry about their lack of QB, and some are starting to be proactive about it.

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pedro55

pedro55

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Yes, and the Pats once went 11-5 without Brady. That does't mean the first thing they should have done is trade Brady to make room for his cheaper replacement. The truth is that Sanchez was not a good QB and the team went 6-10. If Sanchez was a legit QB then this cap issue is even less real than it already is, Revis fits perfectly into the plans, and the Jets have themselves stars on both sides of the ball.

What's making it alot harder to have good players is that they have not drafted enough of them. That is not connected to Revis. You put him on the market and any team with any interest in winning will be looking to acquire him. Trading Revis doesn't suddenly improve the Jets, and the chances of it gradually improving the Jets are overstated/overrated at best. Great franchises keep their great players, period. Having Revis does not halt the search for a QB. The Jets are certainly not going to run into one on the FA market that will break the bank and force Revis out. The next QB will be through the draft, and being a draft pick will be cheap through the meat of Revis' next deal.

The Jets have a talent issue. A depth issue. Paying Harris 14 Mil per year, Cromartie around that amount and Revis 16 mil per yer limits the Jets ability to sign, draft, pay players at other key positions. Thats the problem. A CB is not worth being the highest paid player on your team. Not even close.

The reality is was the Jets defense that far worse this year without Revis? No.

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pedro55

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They're also in the Super Bowl without these great QBs I keep having parroted to me as the one and only way to win in this league. The Giants don't have a Revis, but they do spend more than anyone else on defense including almost 30 million in total on their DBs. Rolle, a safety, made 9 million last year. It's not going to get cheaper for high quality talent, but it will remain just as hard to find. The Packers have the best QB in the league, the Steelers won a Super Bowl with a rookie QB just playing competent ball, and the Jets have actually beat the Steelers before (with Revis).

Meanwhile the great QBs that are Manning and Brady fell to Joe Flacco. The Colin Kapernick QB'd 49ers took down Aaron Rodgers. A 5'10" rookie took the Seahawks to the playoffs with smart, efficient, athletic ball rather than a giant check and tons of cap room. Smart, progressive franchises aren't sitting on their hands crying about how their great players aren't QB so all hope is lost. It's a loser mentality.

The 49ers and Ravens are horrible examples in this anyway. The best players on either offenses are a TE (Davis) and a RB (Rice).

So you don't need a great QB, you need great QB performance. This board has told me for half a decade+ can mostly be manufactured through design, plans, and calls. They went out and hired a guy who's upped the completion% and general production of multiple QBs, and comes from arguably the greatest QB coaching tree in the history of the league. GMs and front offices can't sit back and cry about their lack of QB, and some are starting to be proactive about it.

Russel Wilson was one of the top QBs in the NFL this season. Even as a rookie.

Kapernick had one of the greatest playoff games in a long time. Is he a done deal? No, but the kid can play and he can become a great QB.

Just because he's young doesn't mean he isn't good.

And Joe Flacco? Come on now. The guy just had a postseason where he had 8 TDs and 0 INTs. He might not be a HOF QB but thats a HOF like postseason so far. And he's been to 3 AFC CHampionship games, and has never missed the playoffs. He was a missed catch from being in the super bowl last year. Flacco might never put up Manning numbers, but come on.

Tom Brady is a HOF QB and what did he really do his first few years? He wasn't all that impressive either.

At the end of the day would the Ravens pay Flacco 20 Million or Revis 20 Million? Considering they are one win from being super bowl champs, and considering they'll wind up paying Flacco what he wants, answers that question.

The Broncos paid Manning 18 Million. Who would they rather have next season, Revis or Manning?

Thats the thing about these big deals. Most teams can't afford to pay more than one player 16-20 mil per year. If the Jets lock down Revis for the next 5+ years at $16+ million per year, they are hogtied to paying him and not many others.

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pedro55

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They're also in the Super Bowl without these great QBs I keep having parroted to me as the one and only way to win in this league. The Giants don't have a Revis, but they do spend more than anyone else on defense including almost 30 million in total on their DBs. Rolle, a safety, made 9 million last year. It's not going to get cheaper for high quality talent, but it will remain just as hard to find. The Packers have the best QB in the league, the Steelers won a Super Bowl with a rookie QB just playing competent ball, and the Jets have actually beat the Steelers before (with Revis).

Meanwhile the great QBs that are Manning and Brady fell to Joe Flacco. The Colin Kapernick QB'd 49ers took down Aaron Rodgers. A 5'10" rookie took the Seahawks to the playoffs with smart, efficient, athletic ball rather than a giant check and tons of cap room. Smart, progressive franchises aren't sitting on their hands crying about how their great players aren't QB so all hope is lost. It's a loser mentality.

The 49ers and Ravens are horrible examples in this anyway. The best players on either offenses are a TE (Davis) and a RB (Rice).

So you don't need a great QB, you need great QB performance. This board has told me for half a decade+ can mostly be manufactured through design, plans, and calls. They went out and hired a guy who's upped the completion% and general production of multiple QBs, and comes from arguably the greatest QB coaching tree in the history of the league. GMs and front offices can't sit back and cry about their lack of QB, and some are starting to be proactive about it.

Who really says that? Since the 1980's, how many non great QBs have actually won or even gotten to super bowls?

Montana ruled the 80's. Elway ruled the 80's. Jim Kelly dominated the early 90s. Aikman and that vaunted Cowboys team won in the 90s. Elway won again. Favre won. Kurt Warner won. Tom Brady. Peyton Manning. Drew Brees. Big Ben. Aaron Rodgers. Eli Manning.

And Joe Flacco didn't just have a great game, he's had one of the most dominating playoff performances. 8 TDs, 0 INts. And over the past 3 years, He's thrown 15 TDs and 2 INTs. Think about that. 3 post seasons. like 9 games. 15 TDs and 2 INTs. YOu can say all you want about Flacco, but for 3 seasons now, the guy has been one of the best, if not best QBs in the post season. He played better than Brady last year. He did it again this year. Is he a Peyton Manning kind of QB? No. But Manning isn't exactly one of those guys who shows up in the playoffs either.

Not giving Flacco any credit is the first issue. Again, 15 TDs and 2 INts over 3 postseasons, is impressive. So its not about one or two great games. It's about actually being a good enough QB to be dominate in the playoffs.

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The Jets have a talent issue. A depth issue. Paying Harris 14 Mil per year, Cromartie around that amount and Revis 16 mil per yer limits the Jets ability to sign, draft, pay players at other key positions. Thats the problem. A CB is not worth being the highest paid player on your team. Not even close.

The reality is was the Jets defense that far worse this year without Revis? No.

Harris can be cut before 2014 for a 5 million dollar savings. Cromartie's contract is up within two years. You keep saying Future Revis Salary is going to cripple the franchise without paying attention to these details.

If the CB is by far the best player on the team and one of the best players in the league at any position, yes he is. If that is the price of talent, and it's heading that way, then yes he most certainly is worth it.

The reality is would the Jets' D be that much better with Revis? 100% the answer is yes.

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pedro55

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I can name two just this year.

Again, discounting the fact Flacco has 15 TDs and 2 INTs over the past 3 seasons, kind of disputes your entire argument. You just can't give Flacco any credit. He might not be Brady or Manning. But he's been the best postseason QB over the past few seasons. And the Ravens are in large part in the Super Bowl because Flacco had 8 TD passes and 0 INTs this year. Discount him all you want, he's been a great QB over the past 3 years when it matters. Kind of like Eli Manning.

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Not giving Flacco any credit is the first issue. Again, 15 TDs and 2 INts over 3 postseasons, is impressive. So its not about one or two great games. It's about actually being a good enough QB to be dominate in the playoffs.

Sanchez put up 61%, 9 TDs, and 3 INTs in his two postseasons.

What should I conclude? That he's not a Peyton Manning type but he can step up?

Again, you're not talking a great QB, you are talking about getting great QB PLAY. You need one more than you need the other in the moment of a game. If you can volunteer yourself to understand that subtle difference, then I might be making some progress.



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Sperm Edwards

Sperm Edwards

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there were 2 CBs in the top 10 last year, there was a top 5 CB the year before... to say CB doesn't rate is not true, it's a premium position. Dee Milliner is likely top 5 this year. It's not like guards, nose tackles and punters. Teams make CB's their first round picks all the time and every team in the league (even the Jets) needs top CB talent.

When was the last time a supposedly great CB prospect was taken #1 or #2 in the draft? Never. It's never happened even once.

No one would draft a CB with the #1 (or #2) pick. It's always a QB or a LT or a pass rusher. And it's almost always a QB. Why? One of the main reasons, particularly from the late 1990s up to the new CBA, is a team's going to pay that rookie $10-12M/year. You do that for a (hopeful) franchise player and every GM has spoken with their draft picks that there is no such thing as a franchise CB.

When was the last time a supposedly great CB prospect was taken #3 in the draft? 1997. Before that? Never. It's happened once in NFL history.

Since free agency reached the NFL (1992), there have been over 100 top-5 picks. Here are all the CBs ever drafted in the top 5:

#3 overall pick = 1997 Springs

#4 overall pick = 1998 Woodson

#5 overall pick = 1992 Buckley, 1998 Westbrook, 2002 Jammer, 2003 Newman

When the time comes to ante up, no GM past or present has ever been willing to take a CB in the top 2. One taken at #3. One taken at #4. That's all-time since the NFL merger.

Since '92 when teams knew a player could be lost in free agency, there have been 4 CBs taken in the top 5. Why? Because they know that they won't match if his demands are too high. For a QB? If he's your guy you keep him no matter how much he demands. That's why you invest a very-top pick on a QB and not on a CB. It's not because there haven't been any great CBs come out. Even in years when the top QBs are kind of mediocre prospects no one would do that.

If Revis can be locked up for a reasonable CB contract - reasonable even for a great CB - then do it. Otherwise ship him out and get a #1 and a #2 (or whatever it is) because we're losing him for nothing at the end of the upcoming lost season anyway.

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pedro55

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Sanchez put up 61%, 9 TDs, and 3 INTs in his two postseasons.

What should I conclude? That he's not a Peyton Manning type but he can step up?

Again, you're not talking a great QB, you are talking about getting great QB PLAY. You need one more than you need the other in the moment of a game. If you can volunteer yourself to understand that subtle difference, then I might be making some progress.



11 TDs 0 Ints this postseason. Super Bowl MVP. He was the best QB in the postseason last year.

The truth is you can't accept that Flacco is a big reason why the Ravens won the Super Bowl or even got to one.

Put Sanchez on the Ravens and they wind up 6-10. The Jets beat the Chargers because of a good rushing attack and a great defense. It wasn't because Sanchez won them a game. He didn't play great. And he doesn't seem like a QB who ever will be great.

Flacco is a Super Bowl MVP his 5th season in the NFL. He's been one of the best, if not best, QBs in the postseason the past two years.

It's what, 18 TDs and 2 Picks over two seasons. Sanchez can't even dream of doing that.

Even going by your statement of 9 TDS and 3 picks. That means Flacco has thrown 9 more TDs. 54 more points is a pretty big deal. And it sure would be a big deal on a team like the Jets who had a good defense and won a playoff game 17-14.

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pedro55

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11 TDs 0 Ints this postseason. Super Bowl MVP. He was the best QB in the postseason last year.

The truth is you can't accept that Flacco is a big reason why the Ravens won the Super Bowl or even got to one.

Put Sanchez on the Ravens and they wind up 6-10. The Jets beat the Chargers because of a good rushing attack and a great defense. It wasn't because Sanchez won them a game. He didn't play great. And he doesn't seem like a QB who ever will be great.

Flacco is a Super Bowl MVP his 5th season in the NFL. He's been one of the best, if not best, QBs in the postseason the past two years.

It's what, 18 TDs and 2 Picks over two seasons. Sanchez can't even dream of doing that.

Even going by your statement of 9 TDS and 3 picks. That means Flacco has thrown 9 more TDs. 54 more points is a pretty big deal. Add 6 more points for the extra point and thats 60. Who the hell thinks adding 60 points to the Jets postseason games wouldn't be a huge difference?

And it sure would be a big deal on a team like the Jets who had a good defense and won a playoff game 17-14.

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SenorGato

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Speculation from Cimini and Schefter are suggesting

Revis :: Alex Smith and a first round pick.

this would leave them without a backup QB, a solution we could easily solve.

Revis and Tebow :: Alex Smith, 1st round pick, 4th round pick.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

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pedro55

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I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

It eliminates the Revis contract issue. But Alex Smith won't be cheap and he isn't all that better than Sanchez. Before last season, he was considered a bust. A bust worse than Sanchez. Who knows. He looked ok this year, but he wasn't going to win games for the 49ers.

He's another game manager. Have a great defense, have a good rushing attack, and hope the QB can make a play now and again and never turn the ball over. I don't think the Jets have a great defense anymore and losing Revis makes them worse as a defense. And their rushing attach hasn't really been that impressive since Thomas Jones left.

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It eliminates the Revis contract issue. But Alex Smith won't be cheap and he isn't all that better than Sanchez. Before last season, he was considered a bust. A bust worse than Sanchez. Who knows. He looked ok this year, but he wasn't going to win games for the 49ers.

He's another game manager. Have a great defense, have a good rushing attack, and hope the QB can make a play now and again and never turn the ball over. I don't think the Jets have a great defense anymore and losing Revis makes them worse as a defense. And their rushing attach hasn't really been that impressive since Thomas Jones left.

So in other words: Don't make a stupid trade like that.

I really don't even know where you're going with the Flacco stuff. He won a Super Bowl so he's amazing now. That's how football science works. We get it. I could address the USC stuff but it's really not worth while since you seem to be trying to turn this into a Sanchez v Flacco thing that nobody could possibly care about.

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Greenseed4

Greenseed4

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That's not enough and doesn't make the team better. Alex Smith is not a significant enough of an upgrade. He'll suck without Harbaugh and those weapons.

Is Alex Smith better than Mark Sanchez? and is he worth a 2nd round pick?

That is our asking price. This trade immediately solves our teams most glaring issue...on paper, anyway.

It also opens the door to move Sanchez. Using some fancy contract-sharing language, where we pay for part of Mark's guaranteed monies, but not all-- I don't know how it works, but didn't Denver pick up some of Tebow's contract last year?

Not to mention we would have 3 picks in the top 40 this year...and not need to waste anything high on QB prospects.

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