SenorGato Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 Just saw a mock draft that has us taking Star Lotulelei in the 1st. The guy looks amazing, but I don't understand... how many 1st string defensive linemen do we really need? We have 2 good young players there and a third in Kenrick Ellis coming along. Why not go for OLB, WR, etc? At least three. I like this Ace Sanders for slot idea. Plus this team badly needs a punt returner. Sounds like a great late round fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 Maybe the sh*ttiest mock I've seen so far No damn way guys like Warmack, Jordan, Floyd, Cooper, etc drop that far. And no way Werner, Allen, Lacy, etc go that high. Since every single 1st round graded passrusher comes with red flags out the ass and Patterson/Austin are pretty big reaches in the Top 10 IMO, I say take Warmack. This whole "you don't draft guards in the Top 10" philosophy is outdated as hell. If their respective drafts were done over again, you don't think guys like Mike Iupati, Carl Nicks, Logan Mankins, and Marshall Yanda would be Top 10 picks? Warmack isn't your regular 1st round graded OG. The guy is basically John Hannah dipped in chocolate. Plug him between Brick and Mangold and form the best leftside OL in football. If Warmack is out there annhilating everyone in front of him, opening up gaping holes in the running game, and turns out to be an all-pro for a decade...who's going to give two sh*ts where we drafted him anyway? I am starting to come around on this line of thinking and here's a question if Warmack and Cooper are both on the board, who do you pick? Warmack is almost universally regarded as a better prospect but Cooper is clearly the better athlete. tough call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 I go Cooper. I'm going to be very annoyed when he falls to the Giants to block for David Wilson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Untouchable Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 I am starting to come around on this line of thinking and here's a question if Warmack and Cooper are both on the board, who do you pick? Warmack is almost universally regarded as a better prospect but Cooper is clearly the better athlete. tough call. Warmack all day I like Cooper and think he'll be a damn good player, but Warmack is the best interior OL prospect to come out in over a decade. Makes a guy like DeCastro seem totally average in comparison. Not only is he absolutely devastating in the running game, but the guy only gave up 2 sacks during his 4 years at Alabama (both in his true freshman year). Plays with a nasty ass mean streak as well and routinely dominated the best DL in the country. Basically, I'd compare Warmack to Will Shields and Cooper to a guy like Ben Grubbs or Davin Joseph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 I am starting to come around on this line of thinking and here's a question if Warmack and Cooper are both on the board, who do you pick? Warmack is almost universally regarded as a better prospect but Cooper is clearly the better athlete. tough call. I get the Cooper might be a better fit argument but Warmack will be a game changer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 **** it, back to Warmack I go. Damn leaning with a personal favorite when the consensus seems so clear. That said, the whole "best since..." is getting old. Apparently one of those happens every year now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Mostro Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 I get the Cooper might be a better fit argument but Warmack will be a game changer. I think some of this depends on the offensive system and blocking schemes, at least in terms of immediate results. If Marty's style of WCO is here for a while, (and that is a big "if"), I give Cooper the edge due to his athleticism and superior footwork. Either way, these guys are both extremely solid building blocks and I wouldn't complain with either pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionelRichie Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Warmack all day I like Cooper and think he'll be a damn good player, but Warmack is the best interior OL prospect to come out in over a decade. Makes a guy like DeCastro seem totally average in comparison. Not only is he absolutely devastating in the running game, but the guy only gave up 2 sacks during his 4 years at Alabama (both in his true freshman year). Plays with a nasty ass mean streak as well and routinely dominated the best DL in the country. Basically, I'd compare Warmack to Will Shields and Cooper to a guy like Ben Grubbs or Davin Joseph. I love the Warmack pick. If he is there you take him and forget about LG for the next decade. In a perfect world you move down and still take Warmack but why get cute when your last selection at OG was Vladimir Ducasse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 I was just thinking that it would be funny if Idzik started the same way Tannenbaum started his drafting career by taking the safest OLman in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 it was really bad. Like 4.68 bad or something like that. Edit: oops I thought you asked combine at first. That's combine, not pro day. My bad. Don't know pro day numbers. SANDERS SPEEDS UP Ace Sanders’ pro day goals were as much about his hands as they were his legs. “I wanted to show I could catch with my hands,” Sanders said. “I had to catch the ball away from my body, and I did that today.” The wide receiver and punt returner also improved his 40-yard dash from 4.58 seconds in Indianapolis to 4.56 in Columbia. And to close out pro day, already holding three balls, Sanders caught a fourth ball, something he said he’s never done before. Thanks. I was going to say, I didn't think he ran that slow. I knew he was in the 4.5s, but nowadays that is close to bottom of the timed guys. Very bad for a munchkin. Having the top 60 yard shuttle should redeem him a little. At least three. I like this Ace Sanders for slot idea. Plus this team badly needs a punt returner. Sounds like a great late round fit. Don't make fun of me! I read he will probably go in the 4th. Seems like he might be a decent fit depending on who else is around. Warmack all day I like Cooper and think he'll be a damn good player, but Warmack is the best interior OL prospect to come out in over a decade. Makes a guy like DeCastro seem totally average in comparison. Not only is he absolutely devastating in the running game, but the guy only gave up 2 sacks during his 4 years at Alabama (both in his true freshman year). Plays with a nasty ass mean streak as well and routinely dominated the best DL in the country. Basically, I'd compare Warmack to Will Shields and Cooper to a guy like Ben Grubbs or Davin Joseph. I heard that about Decastro last year. Gato isn't the only guy that I've heard having Cooper ahead of Warmack, especially post combine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Untouchable Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 I heard that about Decastro last year. Gato isn't the only guy that I've heard having Cooper ahead of Warmack, especially post combine. DeCastro was a damn good prospect but always had questions surrounding his physicallity and ability against larger bull rushers. He even publicly admitted in training camp last year that he was having problems with how physical and fast paced the pro game is. Warmack wants to knock your f*cking teeth out on every snap. Even after the whistle, half the time you see Warmack still on the attack pushing guys into the ground. As a run blocker, you'll find no better. As a passblocker, you'll find few interior OL as polished. Yeah, Cooper is the better athlete and runs a faster forty, but how often are you asking a 300+ lb OL to run 40+ yards downfield? Answer: Never I'm way more interested in how these guys perform within 10 yards than 40. Hell, Bruce Campbell ran a freakish 4.7 just like Lane Johnson and the kid from JMU this year. Has he even started a single game for Oakland since being drafted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Yeah, Cooper is the better athlete and runs a faster forty, but how often are you asking a 300+ lb OL to run 40+ yards downfield? Answer: Never The combine was just confirming what everybody already knew, Cooper is a much more athletic prospect than Warmack. He'd make a fine pick at 9, and I have him at worst gone by 19 to the Giants as either a C or a G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Campbell was traded to the Panthers for Mike Goodson. He has not made a start, though he was also wasn't a very good prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 DeCastro was a damn good prospect but always had questions surrounding his physicallity and ability against larger bull rushers. He even publicly admitted in training camp last year that he was having problems with how physical and fast paced the pro game is. Warmack wants to knock your f*cking teeth out on every snap. Even after the whistle, half the time you see Warmack still on the attack pushing guys into the ground. As a run blocker, you'll find no better. As a passblocker, you'll find few interior OL as polished. Yeah, Cooper is the better athlete and runs a faster forty, but how often are you asking a 300+ lb OL to run 40+ yards downfield? Answer: Never I'm way more interested in how these guys perform within 10 yards than 40. Hell, Bruce Campbell ran a freakish 4.7 just like Lane Johnson and the kid from JMU this year. Has he even started a single game for Oakland since being drafted? I heard the same about Decastro last year. Hess was the only one I remember giving me some reservations about his power, but he was a sure-fire, can't miss guard and the main reason not to pick him was that HE WAS A G. You love Warmack. Plenty of people do, but Cooper has built plenty of momentum among the talking heads. Sure they don't mean much, but they are the ones spouting off about Warmack too. For the record, if I had a nickel for every guy that "tried to knock you teeth out on every play" and then had trouble with the speed and power of the NFL I would be a very rich man. Even richer than I am now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 I heard the same about Decastro last year. Hess was the only one I remember giving me some reservations about his power, but he was a sure-fire, can't miss guard and the main reason not to pick him was that HE WAS A G. You love Warmack. Plenty of people do, but Cooper has built plenty of momentum among the talking heads. Sure they don't mean much, but they are the ones spouting off about Warmack too. For the record, if I had a nickel for every guy that "tried to knock you teeth out on every play" and then had trouble with the speed and power of the NFL I would be a very rich man. Even richer than I am now! Idzik has a business background. There's no way he's going to apportion that many resources into one area of the team, especially considering the weaknesses at nearly every other spot (other than DL) on the team. Also, we're eulogizing DeCastro already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Maybe the sh*ttiest mock I've seen so far No damn way guys like Warmack, Jordan, Floyd, Cooper, etc drop that far. And no way Werner, Allen, Lacy, etc go that high. Since every single 1st round graded passrusher comes with red flags out the ass and Patterson/Austin are pretty big reaches in the Top 10 IMO, I say take Warmack. This whole "you don't draft guards in the Top 10" philosophy is outdated as hell. If their respective drafts were done over again, you don't think guys like Mike Iupati, Carl Nicks, Logan Mankins, and Marshall Yanda would be Top 10 picks? Warmack isn't your regular 1st round graded OG. The guy is basically John Hannah dipped in chocolate. Plug him between Brick and Mangold and form the best leftside OL in football. If Warmack is out there annhilating everyone in front of him, opening up gaping holes in the running game, and turns out to be an all-pro for a decade...who's going to give two sh*ts where we drafted him anyway? You dont draft guards in the top 10, is/was an old philosophy...back when having a great Guard actually could change the game. Funny thing is now, more than ever, an interior lineman is even less meaningful since everything is about passing. I find that comment interesting with how the game is changing. That said, HELL NO, you dont take a Guard in the top 10. Every year there is new Steve Hutchinson, and every year they never live up the billing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Idzik has a business background. There's no way he's going to apportion that many resources into one area of the team, especially considering the weaknesses at nearly every other spot (other than DL) on the team. Also, we're eulogizing DeCastro already? Who is eulogizing him? I heard that he was a near perfect guard prospect and now I am hearing this one is better. Excuse me for not getting too excited. I'm not sure how the resource issue is going to work because the rookie scale should make that a little less important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 You dont draft guards in the top 10, is/was an old philosophy...back when having a great Guard actually could change the game. Funny thing is now, more than ever, an interior lineman is even less meaningful since everything is about passing. I find that comment interesting with how the game is changing. That said, HELL NO, you dont take a Guard in the top 10. Every year there is new Steve Hutchinson, and every year they never live up the billing. Completely agree. And now you have the rookie wage scale, too, which reduces the risk a team takes with high picks. With that reduced risk, teams should be more willing to take a shot at greatness rather than go for the safe pick. Between the evolution of the game, and the new pay scale, drafting an interior lineman high makes less sense than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Who plays guard in front of Aaron Rodgers and Adrian Peterson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 slats, on 01 Apr 2013 - 10:41, said: Completely agree. And now you have the rookie wage scale, too, which reduces the risk a team takes with high picks. With that reduced risk, teams should be more willing to take a shot at greatness rather than go for the safe pick. Between the evolution of the game, and the new pay scale, drafting an interior lineman high makes less sense than ever. You have a point but I think it's negated by the position the Jets find themselves in as a franchise. They HAVE to get a solid long term starter at 9 and those two guards are sure things unlike Mingo. OL in general is the safest position to draft high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Who plays guard in front of Aaron Rodgers and Adrian Peterson? this comment would be relevant if there was an Aaron Rodgers in this draft. Looking at the alternatives, a guard would be a pragmatic and safe pick. Just like everything IDzik has done so far this offseason. We could speculate that he takes Mingo because of Irvin or whatever but the Jets need building blocks, not 240 pound 3rd down specialists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 this comment would be relevant if there was an Aaron Rodgers in this draft. Looking at the alternatives, a guard would be a pragmatic and safe pick. Just like everything IDzik has done so far this offseason. We could speculate that he takes Mingo because of Irvin or whatever but the Jets need building blocks, not 240 pound 3rd down specialists. It's relevant because the team would look pretty stupid having three firsts and a sh*tload of cash tied up in the offensive line only to still be the worst offense in football because the skill positions are horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 T0mShane, on 01 Apr 2013 - 11:20, said: It's relevant because the team would look pretty stupid having three firsts and a sh*tload of cash tied up in the offensive line only to still be the worst offense in football because the skill positions are horrible. Agreed but there are no skill players worth taking at nine and just because the team has been built horribly till this point that doesn't mean you reach for someone because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Mostro Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 It's relevant because the team would look pretty stupid having three firsts and a sh*tload of cash tied up in the offensive line only to still be the worst offense in football because the skill positions are horrible. You cannot fix everything in one draft and one offseason. If we had the picks, I wouldn't mind taking both Warmack and Cooper in the 1st and be pretty much set for the foreseeable future at OL. The problems at skill positions will be rectified, just not this season. Being able to plug and play better skill players behind what could arguably be the most dominant OL in the league isn't exactly a bad next step in rebuilding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 JMO the Bills and the jets are really symbiotic at 8/9. I could see Jarvis going to Buffalo at 8 and then Chance at 9 or vice versa. The Bills did just lose Andy Levitre and need a natural left guard. as we get close to the draft, the Mingo type boom/bust picks seem less likely. I don't see Austin going until the teens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 bitonti, on 01 Apr 2013 - 11:54, said: JMO the Bills and the jets are really symbiotic at 8/9. I could see Jarvis going to Buffalo at 8 and then Chance at 9 or vice versa. The Bills did just lose Andy Levitre and need a natural left guard. as we get close to the draft, the Mingo type boom/bust picks seem less likely. I don't see Austin going until the teens. If Warmack does go 8, we should take Cooper at 9 and call it a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 If Warmack does go 8, we should take Cooper at 9 and call it a day. Or they could simultaneously laugh at the Bills and thank them for allowing one more potential impact player to drop to the Jets at #9. Then take the QB, pass rusher, WR, etc., that they passed on and call it a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoicsentry Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 If you're going to take Warmack or Cooper 9th overall, they better end up a 10 time all-star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 I don't know that you need character concerns to let your foot off the gas once somebody drops a $10 mil plus check in your pocket. God knows I'd fold up the tent if that happened. From Peter King: “The thing about the draft no one’s found out how to measure yet — and it’s hard, and they’re trying — is a lot of college guys, when they make money, they stop working the way they worked before they got the money. The way this works, whatever you did last year to get good, you’ve got to do more now to stay good. And that’s how a lot of players fall off. They don’t learn that.” – Longtime NFL scout and current NFL.com draft czar Gil Brandt, 80, to me on Saturday, discussing the science of drafting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 You cannot fix everything in one draft and one offseason. If we had the picks, I wouldn't mind taking both Warmack and Cooper in the 1st and be pretty much set for the foreseeable future at OL. The problems at skill positions will be rectified, just not this season. Being able to plug and play better skill players behind what could arguably be the most dominant OL in the league isn't exactly a bad next step in rebuilding. Here's the thing: the O-line doesn't need fixing. Everything else does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Or they could simultaneously laugh at the Bills and thank them for allowing one more potential impact player to drop to the Jets at #9. Then take the QB, pass rusher, WR, etc., that they passed on and call it a day.There are no WR's or QB's worth taking there and the pass rushers who are safe picks will be gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 It's relevant because the team would look pretty stupid having three firsts and a sh*tload of cash tied up in the offensive line only to still be the worst offense in football because the skill positions are horrible. You're making Bit's (draft forum) argument for him. But it's stupid IMO. What big money? Dude would be on a rookie contract for 4-5 yrs. when it's time to ante up Brick and Mangold will be in the twilight of their careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 You're making Bit's (draft forum) argument for him. But it's stupid IMO. What big money? Dude would be on a rookie contract for 4-5 yrs. when it's time to ante up Brick and Mangold will be in the twilight of their careers. You already have a sh*tload of cash tied up in Brick and Mangold before you add another first round pick there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 There are no WR's or QB's worth taking there and the pass rushers who are safe picks will be gone. If you replace Matt Slauson with Steve Hutchinson in his prime, the overall impact on the offense is minimal. It's certainly not worth the 9th pick in the draft. The rookie wage scale makes making the "safe choice" less important as well. You need to swing for the fences there and take the best impact player available. A modest upgrade over Holmes or Pace makes a much more significant difference on the field than a massive upgrade at guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 You already have a sh*tload of cash tied up in Brick and Mangold before you add another first round pick there. I actually made this same argument and it's completely logical. The problem is unless you feel good about a Star or Werner pick, the value at that spot is way better at guard. Tavon Austin or Tyler Eifert vs Chance I'd take Chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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