Brandon Moore signs with Cowboys then promptly retires

[Jetsfan80]

the nasty Kent State guy has been dinged up with an ankle all week and Peterman has a bad shoulder. It's getting to be about that time. 

 

Are either going to miss Week 1?  If that happens, THEN its time.  But not a second before.  We can't be burning roster spots so easily.

[JoeKlecko]

everything is worth what the market will pay for it.  There is still a market for retired players, look at Ryan Lilja and Brian Waters. 

 

No it isn't.  Just because one moron will panic and overpay for someone or something doesn't mean that's what it's worth.

[flgreen]

What sucks about this situation is that I think that Moore wanted to play here, and not so much anywhere else.  The Jets guard situation is pretty shaky.  

 

Peterman sucks, Winters is a total unknown, Colon is a major injury risk, and Vlad, is well, Vlad.    If they should need a guard before the season, and they might, Moore has signed a contract with the Boys, then retired.   I suspect they now have rights to him.

[flgreen]

No it isn't.  Just because one moron will panic and overpay for someone or something doesn't mean that's what it's worth.

Aaaaaaa  Yes it is,

[Sperm Edwards]

I think it's actually 4, but you're likely right that it wouldn't have gotten them any more picks regardless.  The only thing it might have done though was help to bump up one of the lower comp picks a little bit.

 

This is more what I meant; that we would have gotten "credit" for a compensatory pick.  Would have bumped a 7th up to a 6th or 5th depending on the $.  Late 7th isn't really much more useful than an UDFA to me.  And as I recall the maximum is 4 (but I could be wrong).

[JoeKlecko]

Aaaaaaa  Yes it is,

 

No it isn't.  The market sets a value on things.  Just because some knucklehead comes along, is desperate for something and willing to pay more doesn't mean that's what the item is worth.  Take a car for example.  They have a set retail value.  Often times through negotiation customers can get the car for less than the set retail value, but the basic worth/value of the car is unchanged.  Just because some guy comes along who is desperate for a certain car in a certain color and is willing to pay MORE than the established retail value of the car doesn't mean that the value of that make and model of car goes up.  It just shows how desperate and stupid the one guy is.

[Sperm Edwards]

No it isn't.  The market sets a value on things.  Just because some knucklehead comes along, is desperate for something and willing to pay more doesn't mean that's what the item is worth.  Take a car for example.  They have a set retail value.  Often times through negotiation customers can get the car for less than the set retail value, but the basic worth/value of the car is unchanged.  Just because some guy comes along who is desperate for a certain car in a certain color and is willing to pay MORE than the established retail value of the car doesn't mean that the value of that make and model of car goes up.  It just shows how desperate and stupid the one guy is.

 

You mean like, oh I don't know, giving Mark Sanchez a $50M extension with $20M guaranteed when the FA market never would have paid that to him?

[JoeKlecko]

This is more what I meant; that we would have gotten "credit" for a compensatory pick.  Would have bumped a 7th up to a 6th or 5th depending on the $.  Late 7th isn't really much more useful than an UDFA to me.  And as I recall the maximum is 4 (but I could be wrong).

 

OK thanks guys for the correction and clarification.

[JoeKlecko]

You mean like, oh I don't know, giving Mark Sanchez a $50M extension with $20M guaranteed when the FA market never would have paid that to him?

 

Exactly like that!!!  It just showed what a totally incompetent, clueless moron Tanny is, it didn't mean Mark was worth that kind of coin.

[JoeKlecko]

What sucks about this situation is that I think that Moore wanted to play here, and not so much anywhere else.  The Jets guard situation is pretty shaky.  

 

Peterman sucks, Winters is a total unknown, Colon is a major injury risk, and Vlad, is well, Vlad.    If they should need a guard before the season, and they might, Moore has signed a contract with the Boys, then retired.   I suspect they now have rights to him.

 

Good thought, but I saw on another site that Moore didn't actually sign.  He agreed over the phone, but after sleeping on it overnight, changed his mind and never signed, so the Cowboys don't own his rights.

[bitonti]

No it isn't.  Just because one moron will panic and overpay for someone or something doesn't mean that's what it's worth.

 

this goes against basic economics by the way

 

everything is worth what the market will pay for it. 

[Sperm Edwards]

this goes against basic economics by the way

 

everything is worth what the market will pay for it. it's supply and demand.

 

Saying otherwise is inventing some sort of new economic system. Good luck with that. 

 

What the market bears is not the same as what the most suddenly-desperate person will pay.  Moore wasn't worth dick until Dallas found themselves in a desperate situation.

 

Back in March, he had little value and that's why even a superbowl contender like Chicago signed Slauson instead of Moore.  If Moore was willing to take $1M he'd have had a job in March.

 

Basically, he only has value if enough people, for whom there is greater demand, get season-ending injuries.

 

Color me unimpressed.  Moore had an outstanding career here and have nothing bad to say about the guy at all, but his time is done.  If someone wants to lure him out of retirement by offering $4M for the year that's their business.

[JoeKlecko]

this goes against basic economics by the way

 

everything is worth what the market will pay for it. it's supply and demand.

 

Saying otherwise is inventing some sort of new economic system. Good luck with that. 

 

No it doesn't. Maybe in your view of things, but not in reality.   What you said makes zero sense in any way, shape or form.  Have you ever bought a car?  Paying more or less than retail, doesn't change what the manufacturer determines is the value/worth of the car.  It's the same thing for anything one buys.  The manufacturer or dealer determines the worth/value.  If you get it on sale, that doesn't mean that the worth of the value is suddenly less.  A diamond that is appraised for $1,500 is still worth $1,500 even if you bought it from some store that was going out of business and got it for $1,000.  You may not get $1.500 for it if you turn around and try to sell it to another store, but in terms of worth for insurance, it's worth is what was initially determined.  Thus an absolute value or worth is determined for goods and services.  Paying more or less due to one's own situation, needs, desperation, or that of the seller, doesn't change the absolute value/worth of the good or service.

[flgreen]

No it doesn't. Maybe in your view of things, but not in reality.   What you said makes zero sense in any way, shape or form.  Have you ever bought a car?  Paying more or less than retail, doesn't change what the manufacturer determines is the value/worth of the car.  It's the same thing for anything one buys.  The manufacturer or dealer determines the worth/value.  If you get it on sale, that doesn't mean that the worth of the value is suddenly less.  A diamond that is appraised for $1,500 is still worth $1,500 even if you bought it from some store that was going out of business and got it for $1,000.  You may not get $1.500 for it if you turn around and try to sell it to another store, but in terms of worth for insurance, it's worth is what was initially determined.  Thus an absolute value or worth is determined for goods and services.  Paying more or less due to one's own situation, needs, desperation, or that of the seller, doesn't change the absolute value/worth of the good or service.

Reality is that once a person pays a certain price for something that becomes it's value.  You used a car as an example.  If the car you are buying is a 1929 classic at an auction, What the purchaser pays for it is it's value.  The second bidder may not think so, but the purchaser, and the seller think so.   If you still want to buy it, you will  have to pay the price the owner wants.  That's it's value to him.

 

Before the new CBA all the teams were paying untested 1st round picks more then All Pros.   That is what the market was for them.  If you wanted one, you had to pay the price.  If you didn't think that was their value, you had to get out of the first round.

 

9 years ago gas was selling for $1.65 a gallon.  It really isn't any more rare now, but we are paying almost $4 for it.  That's it's 2013 value because that's what people are willing to pay for it. 

 

That's the basis of sales.  As long as you have one person willing to pay a certain price for something, that's it's value.  Your not going to sell it to someone else because he thinks that it isn't worth what the other guy is willing to pay.

 

An item is worth what the highest bidder is willing to pay, period

[The Crusher]

His heart  and or butt is not into playing again

11 year career and all the guy is ever going to be known for is having a  pathetic QB run into his ass.  Poor guy. 

[JoeKlecko]

Reality is that once a person pays a certain price for something that becomes it's value.  You used a car as an example.  If the car you are buying is a 1929 classic at an auction, What the purchaser pays for it is it's value.  The second bidder may not think so, but the purchaser, and the seller think so.   If you still want to buy it, you will  have to pay the price the owner wants.  That's it's value to him.

 

Before the new CBA all the teams were paying untested 1st round picks more then All Pros.   That is what the market was for them.  If you wanted one, you had to pay the price.  If you didn't think that was their value, you had to get out of the first round.

 

9 years ago gas was selling for $1.65 a gallon.  It really isn't any more rare now, but we are paying almost $4 for it.  That's it's 2013 value because that's what people are willing to pay for it. 

 

That's the basis of sales.  As long as you have one person willing to pay a certain price for something, that's it's value.  Your not going to sell it to someone else because he thinks that it isn't worth what the other guy is willing to pay.

 

An item is worth what the highest bidder is willing to pay, period

 

What you're saying is the value to two people (the buyer and seller).  Things have a value apart from that and it isn't just defined by two people, but the market as a whole.

[bitonti]

  A diamond that is appraised for $1,500 is still worth $1,500 even if you bought it from some store that was going out of business and got it for $1,000.  

that diamond is worth 1000 dollars because that's how much it fetched on the market.  and even then just for that transaction. It could be worth 500 dollars the next time. the 1500 appraisal value is not the value. 

[faba]

Economics aside- he does not want to go through the rigors of training camp so a moot issue on why we should have tried to sign him before or now. Loyal Jet enjoy retirement work for ESPN

[SenorGato]

I want to worry about the Jets' guard situation but I'm just not despite Peterman and Colon doing nothing for me. I think we won't see the line gel together until the second half of the season, but the depth at the position is more talented (bigger, younger, more athletic) than it has been in a long time. 

[#27TheDominator]

11 year career and all the guy is ever going to be known for is having a  pathetic QB run into his ass.  Poor guy. 

 

 

Do non-pathetic QBs run into RG asses?

[Sperm Edwards]

Reality is that once a person pays a certain price for something that becomes it's value.  You used a car as an example.  If the car you are buying is a 1929 classic at an auction, What the purchaser pays for it is it's value.  The second bidder may not think so, but the purchaser, and the seller think so.   If you still want to buy it, you will  have to pay the price the owner wants.  That's it's value to him.

 

Before the new CBA all the teams were paying untested 1st round picks more then All Pros.   That is what the market was for them.  If you wanted one, you had to pay the price.  If you didn't think that was their value, you had to get out of the first round.

 

9 years ago gas was selling for $1.65 a gallon.  It really isn't any more rare now, but we are paying almost $4 for it.  That's it's 2013 value because that's what people are willing to pay for it. 

 

That's the basis of sales.  As long as you have one person willing to pay a certain price for something, that's it's value.  Your not going to sell it to someone else because he thinks that it isn't worth what the other guy is willing to pay.

 

An item is worth what the highest bidder is willing to pay, period

 

No that is not true.  Like it or not, JoeKlecko is right.  This is how pawn shops are in business.  They buy something people sell them for a certain amount and sell it for a higher amount.  It is being sold (also bought) by two different parties based on the situation each is in, not based on "market value" for the item. 

 

It depends on who's buying and who's selling.  But the same item (or in this thread's example, the same player) is worth different amounts to different people -- and from different people.

 

A player has more value to one team than he does to another team, and that has little to do with market value.  I'll bet the Vikings would love to have Marshawn Lynch on their team, but they aren't going to pay 1/10 what it would cost to get him because they already have Adrian Peterson.  So they want him (they have "demand" for him) but they don't have that much demand for him.

 

Likewise, if we were serious contenders and had extra cap room laying around and just lost the only viable option we had at RG, we'd probably pony up $3M for Moore for the year.  We aren't in that situation so we offered him nothing.

[bitonti]

 

Likewise, if we were serious contenders and had extra cap room laying around and just lost the only viable option we had at RG, we'd probably pony up $3M for Moore for the year.  We aren't in that situation so we offered him nothing.

 

for the record the deal Moore agreed to was a little less than 2 Mil for the year. 1.2 Mil salary plus 500k signing plus 250k workout. It's like double what they paid for Peterman but still fairly reasonable for a guy with his resume. 

[JoeKlecko]

that diamond is worth 1000 dollars because that's how much it fetched on the market.  and even then just for that transaction. It could be worth 500 dollars the next time. the 1500 appraisal value is not the value. 

 

You're wrong.  It's just that simple.

[JoeKlecko]

Reality is that once a person pays a certain price for something that becomes it's value.  You used a car as an example.  If the car you are buying is a 1929 classic at an auction, What the purchaser pays for it is it's value.  The second bidder may not think so, but the purchaser, and the seller think so.   If you still want to buy it, you will  have to pay the price the owner wants.  That's it's value to him.

 

Before the new CBA all the teams were paying untested 1st round picks more then All Pros.   That is what the market was for them.  If you wanted one, you had to pay the price.  If you didn't think that was their value, you had to get out of the first round.

 

9 years ago gas was selling for $1.65 a gallon.  It really isn't any more rare now, but we are paying almost $4 for it.  That's it's 2013 value because that's what people are willing to pay for it. 

 

That's the basis of sales.  As long as you have one person willing to pay a certain price for something, that's it's value.  Your not going to sell it to someone else because he thinks that it isn't worth what the other guy is willing to pay.

 

An item is worth what the highest bidder is willing to pay, period

 

Ever heard of Kelly's Blue Book?  They determine the worth of used cars, I'm assuming in conjunction with dealers and manufacturers.  Just because some come along and pay more or less than what Kelly's Blue Book determines is the value of the car, doesn't mean that the worth or value of all cars of that make and model and vintage changes.  It simply doesn't.  You guys are wrong.

[bitonti]

You're wrong.  It's just that simple.

 

i can buy a beanie baby and get someone to appraise it for 100$. If I can't sell it for 100$ it's not really worth that price. Anything is worth what the market will pay for it. the opinion of the appraiser or of Kelly blue book doesn't trump the actual transaction. 

[Bleedin Green]

i can buy a beanie baby and get someone to appraise it for 100$. If I can't sell it for 100$ it's not really worth that price. Anything is worth what the market will pay for it. the opinion of the appraiser or of Kelly blue book doesn't trump the actual transaction. 

 

Does that mean that it is your belief that, prior to yesterday, Moore was by all measures considered by the NFL to be completely worthless?

[Integrity28]

i can buy a beanie baby and get someone to appraise it for 100$. If I can't sell it for 100$ it's not really worth that price. Anything is worth what the market will pay for it. the opinion of the appraiser or of Kelly blue book doesn't trump the actual transaction. 

 

You make being wrong an art form.

[JoeKlecko]

i can buy a beanie baby and get someone to appraise it for 100$. If I can't sell it for 100$ it's not really worth that price. Anything is worth what the market will pay for it. the opinion of the appraiser or of Kelly blue book doesn't trump the actual transaction. 

 

Keep thinking whatever you want to think, I don't care.  With most items, their value is set by the manufacturers or experts in that field, based on nationwide averages, number in circulation, value of the dollar, etc.  That worth or value can increase or decrease over time.  If enough people refuse to buy said item at that value, then the manufacturers or experts will most likely reconsider their valuation and lower it.  If for some reason, something happens to increase the value of said item, say it's an older item, and all of a sudden half of those things are accidentally destroyed, then the value can skyrocket.  What one person is willing to pay doesn't affect that at all.

 

If you find someone willing to sell you one for less, it doesn't effect the value of the rest of those items in circulation one iota.  

[bitonti]

Does that mean that it is your belief that, prior to yesterday, Moore was by all measures considered by the NFL to be completely worthless?

 

unfortunately, yes. although rumors had him turning down lower offers from the Bills etc. But technically speaking he didn't have a contract therefore his official value was 0. 

[Sperm Edwards]

for the record the deal Moore agreed to was a little less than 2 Mil for the year. 1.2 Mil salary plus 500k signing plus 250k workout. It's like double what they paid for Peterman but still fairly reasonable for a guy with his resume. 

 

I don't disagree, but it isn't worth it for a team like the Jets.  Our goal is to have the veteran provide insurance in case the rookie can't go right away, not to play out the year as the starter.  Peterman is a good theoretical candidate for this position.  He has years of starting experience, but is coming off his worst season by far.

 

Also just because Moore was good last year does not mean anything for the coming year.  Peterman was, statistically, pretty good 2 years ago from what I understand.  The next season he was basically a liability who was merely better than the backups they had.  Kareem McKenzie was a top-5 rated OT in 2010.  In 2011 he was a bottom-5 rated tackle and was not re-signed by the Giants (or anyone else).  

 

In other words, Moore may have sucked this year. There is no guarantee that last year's performance is any indicator that he'd be as good the following year, especially as players enter their mid-30s in a rough sport.  I think he's a good candidate for a team who needs an immediate hole plugged just for the year, exactly in the way Dallas was looking to sign him.  For the Jets, he would have less value.

[bitonti]

 With most items, their value is set by the manufacturers or experts in that field, based on nationwide averages, number in circulation, value of the dollar, etc.  That worth or value can increase or decrease over time.  

 

There is a difference between price and value. The actual value is only from a sale. Not from a price. 

[T0mShane]

Jerry Jones=the Gold Standard

[bitonti]

I don't disagree, but it isn't worth it for a team like the Jets.  Our goal is to have the veteran provide insurance in case the rookie can't go right away, not to play out the year as the starter.  Peterman is a good theoretical candidate for this position.  He has years of starting experience, but is coming off his worst season by far.

 

Also just because Moore was good last year does not mean anything for the coming year.  Peterman was, statistically, pretty good 2 years ago from what I understand.  The next season he was basically a liability who was merely better than the backups they had.  Kareem McKenzie was a top-5 rated OT in 2010.  In 2011 he was a bottom-5 rated tackle and was not re-signed by the Giants (or anyone else).  

 

In other words, Moore may have sucked this year. There is no guarantee that last year's performance is any indicator that he'd be as good the following year, especially as players enter their mid-30s in a rough sport.  I think he's a good candidate for a team who needs an immediate hole plugged just for the year, exactly in the way Dallas was looking to sign him.  For the Jets, he would have less value.

 

 Colon has ended the last 3 seasons on IR he's played 12 games out of the last possible 48.  Considering Colon's injury history it's highly likely Winters plays and they would still need a RG. Winters' true position is LG cause he played left side in college. This is really a Peterman vs Moore discussion not about WInters development. THe question is who do you want being the stop gap until Campbell is ready for RG. I understand why they went cheap but it also hurts cohesion (i.e. Mangold and Howard are used to having Moore next to him). every change you make to an OL hurts cohesion and it takes time to gel again.  this line is gonna be worse than last year and a big part of that is losing Moore. with a lineup of Brick - Colon/Winters - Mangold - Moore - Howard they could have actually been better than last year (and be among the league's best again). 

[bitonti]

There is a difference between price and value. The actual value is only from a sale. Not from a price. 

 

ok so after confusing myself I looked it up... this can explain it better... note the part about the link between value and price happening during an exchange. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_(economics)

 

value can be very subjective. I might value this picture of me and my grandma but it's price depends on who is paying for it. this is the definition I was using. (neoclassical). there are other schools of thought however. 

 

In neoclassical economics, the value of an object or service is often seen as nothing but the price it would bring in an open and competitive market. This is determined primarily by the demand for the object relative to supply

[jbone]

Value, price or any other measure of worth, is inherently based off information. In a perfect world with information spread out symmetrically to all agents, one value could be placed on each item, at each step in the production ladder, as everyone would have the exact same information to use at their disposal. The question then becomes more of a micro question in regards to each respective party's utility function for the good or service being evaluated.

 

Unfortunately, information has a tendency to spread out asymmetrically, causing market failures. I.E break downs in how goods and services are valued.

 

Wall Street is basically one giant information arbitrage machine. These breakdowns are a major reason people gain and lose fortunes relatively easily in a capitalistic system. Even in other economic systems, having information other factions do not have is a major advantage. These breakdowns can also occur in the NFL, I.E. the Jets extending Mark's contract at the price we did when no other NFL team would given him the same money if he was a FA. 

 

If you want to talk about price and how firms set them, then its more a question of the average and marginal costs of production of those goods and services.