Matt39 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I've been saying it for months, even prior to the last quarter of the season, that Geno is the odds-on favorite to be our week 1 starter. I don't see a single QB in this draft, save for possibly Teddy who I haven't seen enough of, that should be starting week 1. Geno already has a year under his belt not only in the NFL, but the same offensive system. Outside of RG III, Luck or Wilson, I just don't see any rookie coming in and assimilating to the NFL quickly enough to learn a brand new system and perform better than Geno did towards the end of the year. These guys may end up out-competing him as the season progresses, but I would be shocked if anyone does it through camp prior to week 1. Extremely shocked. He played above average for a rookie with Kerley in the lineup. He's not going anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Pennington's first year as a starter threw for 22 TD and 6 INTs. He was 1st in the NFL in Passer Rating and Completion % and was in the top half in yards and yards per attempt. he stunk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 He played above average for a rookie with Kerley in the lineup. He's not going anywhere. Agreed. The numbers are absolutely staggering when Kerley was out of the lineup: in the four games that Kerley missed, Geno's QB rating was 17.1, compared to the twelve games that he played where Geno's rating was a 76.1 and finished the year with a four game stretch where his rating was 83.2. He's going to be our starting QB and with his work ethic, I expect him to come back in physically stronger, bigger and with a slightly quicker release and comfort under center. It'll be interesting to see if Jets' West even happens or if everyone flocks down to Jets' South. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Sanchez. The usual suspects we're saying Sanchez was no good in year 1, you were one of them I believe. We both know that making to the AFCC clouded a lot of judgment on the QB, most notably with our blockhead HC. IN fact, before the bad losing streak Geno had a ton of support with the fan base. The unfortunate reality is that many people grade QB's partially by wins and losses. The 09 Jets made the playoffs and went to the AFCC, if Geno had done the same the climate would be similiar today as it was at the end of 09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 To be fair, stats are tangible evidence and there is no way in any Hell it's fair to compare anything that happened in Pennington's career to what happened to Sanchez or is happening to Geno. First off Pennington sat his first two seasons... and change. Even as the FIRST QB taken in the draft. Secondly his first full season blows Sanchez' and Geno's out of the holy water. His second season he played with a serious injury to his wrist and missed games. 2004 he looked great for half a season then injures his rotator cuff which was the unfortunate beginning of the end and a grey area of mediocrity for like, another 3 seasons. To say Geno's 12/21 in 16 games deserves as much time and respect as Pennington's 22/6 in 12 games is heresy. Oakland in the 2002 playoffs was the true beginning of the end. It was that game which foretold pretty much his entire career from there on out (even if we didn't know or see it at the time), an overall mediocre QB who was at his absolute worst when needed the most. That had already been put on display before he ever even had his first injury, and besides, an injury to the left wrist of a right-handed QB is no excuse for his play in 2003. Of course none of this is to say whether Geno will ever amount to anything, but the point is that 3/4 of a season from a third year pro is what ultimately bought him another 5 years as starter. A rookie at least has the potential for improvement (which he has at least shown some signs of). That said, if the Jets find themselves a legitimately better option at QB then I have absolutely no problem with them making the switch from Geno, but it has nothing to do with a comparison to one pretty good partial season capped by a divisional round implosion from a guy who was a third-stringer at this point in his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 So what you are saying is the dude has Game, and Intangibles. Awesome. If the Jets end up with him, I most certainly hope he does have "game". If he goes anywhere else, I hope he doesn't. Translating college success to the NFL is obviously a tricky formula, especially at QB, so we'll see. Intangibles are pretty much a heap of nonsense, and a few rare examples of guys who didn't give a crap doesn't change that, considering it doesn't apply to 99+% of the league's players. That Manziel likely isn't going to be one of those players is reassuring, but not much else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 The usual suspects we're saying Sanchez was no good in year 1, you were one of them I believe. We both know that making to the AFCC clouded a lot of judgment on the QB, most notably with our blockhead HC. IN fact, before the bad losing streak Geno had a ton of support with the fan base. The unfortunate reality is that many people grade QB's partially by wins and losses. The 09 Jets made the playoffs and went to the AFCC, if Geno had done the same the climate would be similiar today as it was at the end of 09 The funny thing about it all is that Geno's regular season record was 8-8. Sanchez's rookie year was 8-7. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 he stunk Not his first year or third healthy. As a starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Oakland in the 2002 playoffs was the true beginning of the end. It was that game which foretold pretty much his entire career from there on out (even if we didn't know or see it at the time), an overall mediocre QB who was at his absolute worst when needed the most. That had already been put on display before he ever even had his first injury, and besides, an injury to the left wrist of a right-handed QB is no excuse for his play in 2003. Of course none of this is to say whether Geno will ever amount to anything, but the point is that 3/4 of a season from a third year pro is what ultimately bought him another 5 years as starter. A rookie at least has the potential for improvement (which he has at least shown some signs of). That said, if the Jets find themselves a legitimately better option at QB then I have absolutely no problem with them making the switch from Geno, but it has nothing to do with a comparison to one pretty good partial season capped by a divisional round implosion from a guy who was a third-stringer at this point in his career. exactly. Tell it to EY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewillie78 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 If the Jets end up with him, I most certainly hope he does have "game". If he goes anywhere else, I hope he doesn't. Translating college success to the NFL is obviously a tricky formula, especially at QB, so we'll see. Intangibles are pretty much a heap of nonsense, and a few rare examples of guys who didn't give a crap doesn't change that, considering it doesn't apply to 99+% of the league's players. That Manziel likely isn't going to be one of those players is reassuring, but not much else. Russell, Leaf, and especailly Jeff George come immediately to mind. Too bad about George, because that dude could throw a 60 yard frozen rope standing still, and his release reminded me of Marino. On pure talent alone, Jeff George had more in his little pinky that many NFL QB's today. That dude could sling it, but could not give a rats a$$ about winning and losing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Russell, Leaf, and especailly Jeff George come immediately to mind. Too bad about George, because that dude could throw a 60 yard frozen rope standing still, and his release reminded me of Marino. On pure talent alone, Jeff George had more in his little pinky that many NFL QB's today. That dude could sling it, but could not give a rats a$$ about winning and losing. So you're telling me the only reason that Tom Couch, David Carr, Mark Sanchez, Carson Palmer, Leinhart, Vince Young, Byron Leftwich, Joey Harrington, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, Sam Bradford et al, all failed to be a super star was because they lacked cockiness and the desire to win? These are some of the most competitive athletes in the entire world, the type of guys who won't let their girlfriend, little brother or son win a pickup game of basketball, ping-pong, video games or whatever the challenge may be and you really believe they all had/have no desire to win? Just because Manziel is openly a douche, doesn't make him any more of a competitor than of the aforementioned athletes. Read: Sam Bradford refusing to let Colt McCoy win in a game of HORSE and ping pong, because the dude just refuses to lose at anything. If Manziel succeeds, it's because of his physical abilities, work ethic and football acumen, not swagger. Peyton was/is the most robotic, non-swaggerlicious personality you could have seen in the beginning of his career and he seemed to manage okay. (the only reason he started to take commercial was at the advice of management saying people found him to robotic and unmarketable). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Russell, Leaf, and especailly Jeff George come immediately to mind. Too bad about George, because that dude could throw a 60 yard frozen rope standing still, and his release reminded me of Marino. On pure talent alone, Jeff George had more in his little pinky that many NFL QB's today. That dude could sling it, but could not give a rats a$$ about winning and losing. I get what you're saying with those examples, and like I said that's why I agree that there are certain instances where guys who absolutely have personalities that should be avoided; no argument there. That's more the exception than the rule though and, beyond that, I simply don't see much weight to the supposed greatness of intangibles beyond it's use as a means to praise players who don't show up in the stats. Because the point is that no matter how smart and dedicated a guy is, if it doesn't translate to on-the-field performance then what difference does it make? It didn't do anything for Tebow's mess of a career and never changed that Pennington was a weak-armed checkdown artist who was completely unreliable in the clutch. If Manziel is to still be the guy he's currently touted to be once he's in the NFL, it's not going to be his affinity for the game that does the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Not his first year or third healthy. As a starter. stunk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 stunk stink #you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewillie78 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 So you're telling me the only reason that Tom Couch, David Carr, Mark Sanchez, Carson Palmer, Leinhart, Vince Young, Byron Leftwich, Joey Harrington, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, Sam Bradford et al, all failed to be a super star was because they lacked cockiness and the desire to win? These are some of the most competitive athletes in the entire world, the type of guys who won't let their girlfriend, little brother or son win a pickup game of basketball, ping-pong, video games or whatever the challenge may be and you really believe they all had/have no desire to win? Just because Manziel is openly a douche, doesn't make him any more of a competitor than of the aforementioned athletes. Read: Sam Bradford refusing to let Colt McCoy win in a game of HORSE and ping pong, because the dude just refuses to lose at anything. If Manziel succeeds, it's because of his physical abilities, work ethic and football acumen, not swagger. Peyton was/is the most robotic, non-swaggerlicious personality you could have seen in the beginning of his career and he seemed to manage okay. (the only reason he started to take commercial was at the advice of management saying people found him to robotic and unmarketable). Some of those, I would say yes, some of those lacked both, and some of those just plain sucked the wazoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewillie78 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I get what you're saying with those examples, and like I said that's why I agree that there are certain instances where guys who absolutely have personalities that should be avoided; no argument there. That's more the exception than the rule though and, beyond that, I simply don't see much weight to the supposed greatness of intangibles beyond it's use as a means to praise players who don't show up in the stats. Because the point is that no matter how smart and dedicated a guy is, if it doesn't translate to on-the-field performance then what difference does it make? It didn't do anything for Tebow's mess of a career and never changed that Pennington was a weak-armed checkdown artist who was completely unreliable in the clutch. If Manziel is to still be the guy he's currently touted to be once he's in the NFL, it's not going to be his affinity for the game that does the trick. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 stink #you +1 #petruli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artemusclyde Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Firstly, the author clearly tries to play them as two entirely different personalities, but Brady is extremely heated and aggressive on the field, to the point of petulant, not this laid back, serene Peyton Manning-esque demeanor they are trying to contrast with Manziel. However, Brady is 100% right. He's no longer going to be the most athletic kid on the field playing Duke linebackers/future law-firm softball champs, he's going to be playing against the absolute best athletes in the world at almost every position, so if he does continue that prickish attitude, he will get it shoved down his throat. He can go the Rivers route and continue to be a douche, but as long as he backs it up he'll be fine, but if he doesn't, he will get sh*t-canned very quickly, especially because even though the media is lauding him now, they are absolutely looking to turn on him the first chance that they get. I'm pretty sure the author was trying to be sarcastic when he was comparing the two, cause honestly both of them are pricks on the field and talk a lot of smack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobraVerde Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 after that Duke game, i dont know what to tell you anymore honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kay_gee Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I've been watching clips of Manziel. IMO, if he doesn't learn to protect himself on the field, either by sliding or getting out of bounds, he's gonna get crushed. the guy looks small as a college QB. he's gonna be a dwarf in the NFL. he's talented but the guy's tiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotReign37 Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 I've been watching clips of Manziel. IMO, if he doesn't learn to protect himself on the field, either by sliding or getting out of bounds, he's gonna get crushed. the guy looks small as a college QB. he's gonna be a dwarf in the NFL. he's talented but the guy's tiny. Johnie wont make it as an NFL QB and I will tell you why. His running around improvising style doesnt work in the NFL. First off, its gets players on your own team injured. The OL is blocking in 1 direction and suddenly the play is going the other way resulting in O Lineman tearing knees or ankles up. I do not believe Manziel is patient enough to stay in the pocket and like you say, he will be flattened by NFL DBs that weigh upwards of 200 lbs. He gambles with the football as well throwing it up for grabs in double and triple coverage trying to create magic. I believe he has bust written all over him but some team will foolishly scoop him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 he's not tiny. danny woodhead runs between the tackles for crying out loud there is a difference between short and small not every college QB is HOF material. lets give him time to adjust to the NFL game I have never read a single comment that he was un-coachable, or stupid and every guy here would have pics on the net chugging beer if we were this famous at the age of 20 for being an exciting QB playing in texas of all places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 all this pennington goofing makes me wonder where Johnny Hector went? Haven't seen him in awhile Haven't really seen much of him since last year's knicks' threads. He was already on the decline in posting and seemed to stop all-together once RJF left. Both a bummer, good posters. It's just really, really hard to talk about the Knicks and/or Jets right now. Hector likes absolutes, not what-if's. Switched jobs last May and actually have to accomplish more in the office than compiling rep points on JN... between the kids, gym, playing hoops, and a general disdain for the state of my sports teams, I haven't felt compelled to post much of late. The timing with RJF was a coincidence and not a form of protest. My interest has been rekindled somewhat with the combine coming up and if there are any absolutes involved, it will be the Jets once again failing to draft an offensive skill position player of any value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Switched jobs last May and actually have to accomplish more in the office than compiling rep points on JN... between the kids, gym, playing hoops, and a general disdain for the state of my sports teams, I haven't felt compelled to post much of late. The timing with RJF was a coincidence and not a form of protest. My interest has been rekindled somewhat with the combine coming up and if there are any absolutes involved, it will be the Jets once again failing to draft an offensive skill position player of any value. Nice to have you back. Glad you are well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Switched jobs last May and actually have to accomplish more in the office than compiling rep points on JN... between the kids, gym, playing hoops, and a general disdain for the state of my sports teams, I haven't felt compelled to post much of late. The timing with RJF was a coincidence and not a form of protest. My interest has been rekindled somewhat with the combine coming up and if there are any absolutes involved, it will be the Jets once again failing to draft an offensive skill position player of any value. Congrats on the job, good to see ya back. Besides THJ, I've found watching the Knicks painstakingly miserable this year...moreso than usual. Luckily I've been too busy with school and prepping for the boards to care too much, but it still sucks. Surprised how much Shump has regressed: can't tell if the trade talk bothers him or if he just doesn't put in the work to improve his game. Either way, I'm actually feeling good about the direction the Jets are headed, which is a rarity. One out of two ain't bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Nice to have you back. Glad you are well I'll make an effort to post semi-regularly to appease my legion of fans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Congrats on the job, good to see ya back. Besides THJ, I've found watching the Knicks painstakingly miserable this year...moreso than usual. Luckily I've been too busy with school and prepping for the boards to care too much, but it still sucks. Surprised how much Shump has regressed: can't tell if the trade talk bothers him or if he just doesn't put in the work to improve his game. Either way, I'm actually feeling good about the direction the Jets are headed, which is a rarity. One out of two ain't bad. Thanks... it's one of those "not leaving until they throw me out on my ass" type jobs. I hope that THJ isn't one of those players whose game will be exposed the more time he spends on the court. I think that, as Knicks fans, we have a tendency to annoint guys - especially our draft picks - as the second coming so quickly, because we only pick in the 1st Rd once every other year (thank you, Ted Stepien) and have had miserable success doing so. I mean, have the Knicks drafted a player that made an ASG while still with the team since Ewing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Thanks... it's one of those "not leaving until they throw me out on my ass" type jobs. I hope that THJ isn't one of those players whose game will be exposed the more time he spends on the court. I think that, as Knicks fans, we have a tendency to annoint guys - especially our draft picks - as the second coming so quickly, because we only pick in the 1st Rd once every other year (thank you, Ted Stepien) and have had miserable success doing so. I mean, have the Knicks drafted a player that made an ASG while still with the team since Ewing? I like THJ a lot, his offensive game is very impressive for his age, but I've been hearing that some of the reason he doesn't get more playing time because he's the worst defensive player on the team, which is saying something. I was reading an article that said if you look from the coaches camera, that he's always a couple steps behind in his rotation. I only know of one name for sure, David Lee and I can't remember if it was his last year with us or the Warriors when he made it. The only other two names are Ariza and Nene, but I'm not positive if they made it, but I know for a fact it wasn't with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Lonelyhearts Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Thanks... it's one of those "not leaving until they throw me out on my ass" type jobs. I hope that THJ isn't one of those players whose game will be exposed the more time he spends on the court. I think that, as Knicks fans, we have a tendency to annoint guys - especially our draft picks - as the second coming so quickly, because we only pick in the 1st Rd once every other year (thank you, Ted Stepien) and have had miserable success doing so. I mean, have the Knicks drafted a player that made an ASG while still with the team since Ewing? Hardaway is a bum like Shumpert. His WP48 was actually really good when he was shooting hot but the peripherals were always crap. Shoulda sold high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Hardaway is a bum like Shumpert. His WP48 was actually really good when he was shooting hot but the peripherals were always crap. Shoulda sold high. ...now I really hope he proves you wrong and it somehow involves you having to drink pee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 ...now I really hope he proves you wrong and it somehow involves you having to drink pee. the pee drinking is likely to occur either way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 And Johnny Football IS....not 6 foot tall. “I'm going to measure 6 feet — I'm 72 inches on the dot,” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 And Johnny Football IS....not 6 foot tall. “I'm going to measure 6 feet — I'm 72 inches on the dot,” I wouldn't waste a top-5 pick on this sh*thead, but I doubt 1/4" is going to matter much, as people are more willing to overlook height in an athletic QB, given Russell Wilson's play as a pro and the fact that Manziel also has freakishly big hands (queue peen joke) for a guy under 6'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I wouldn't waste a top-5 pick on this sh*thead, but I doubt 1/4" is going to matter much, as people are more willing to overlook height in an athletic QB, given Russell Wilson's play as a pro and the fact that Manziel also has freakishly big hands (queue peen joke) for a guy under 6'. I was listening to Cossell on Colin Cowherd's show this morning and he said that he's talked to "5 or 6 extremely well-respected coaches in the league, who've worked on the offensive side of the ball for their entire career and they've all unanimously stated that Wilson is a slightly above average QB on a very good team." He went on to say that he's a good manager of situations, but is nothing more than a good piece on a very, very talented team and that if you compare or say he's better than Andrew Luck, every single person in Indi would laugh you out of the room and ask you how you could even fathom that as a possibility. This then goes along with, if people are thinking Manziel's ceiling could be Wilson, they will be shell-shocked when he's asked to carry a sub-par team, coupled with his sh*tty attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I was listening to Cossell on Colin Cowherd's show this morning and he said that he's talked to "5 or 6 extremely well-respected coaches in the league, who've worked on the offensive side of the ball for their entire career and they've all unanimously stated that Wilson is a slightly above average QB on a very good team." He went on to say that he's a good manager of situations, but is nothing more than a good piece on a very, very talented team and that if you compare or say he's better than Andrew Luck, every single person in Indi would laugh you out of the room and ask you how you could even fathom that as a possibility. This then goes along with, if people are thinking Manziel's ceiling could be Wilson, they will be shell-shocked when he's asked to carry a sub-par team, coupled with his sh*tty attitude. Wilson's rarely had the opportunity to have to sling it around or put together a comeback. Saying he's a product of being on an awesome team ...I think that's yet to be determined. The Falcon playoff game he was as good of a passer I've seen....and was forced to play from behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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