Jetsfan80 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 so we supposed to let our starting right tackle go to the tune of a half million dollars,amounting to peanuts in nfl $, on an already shaky oline, all the while trying to develop a shaky young rookie qb? genius. if idzik thought breno was the better option than howard, he wouldn't have made howard his priority signing and wouldn't have offered howard, from what I can tell, damn close to what the raiders paid. howard was idziks plan A, as well as it should have been and plan B took affect over a half million dollars or less. I could care less what the raiders did/do.. they have no bearing on this at all 1. We don't know the terms of Giacomini's deal yet, so your entire post is based on speculation. 2. It matters greatly what the Raiders did, actually. We had our own price on Howard, an average RT. The Raiders valued him as a top 5 guy. Hence, they got him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j4jets Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 1.3m to be exact. I am sure with 40m-50m under the capped, they could have 'squeezed' howards & deckers contract in. Just because u have the cap space doesn't mean you start overpaying. Save the cap, and carry some of the cap forward to next year when we'll have about 4-6 starters become FAs. The new CBA requires teams to carryforward any unused cap space, hence every team has an adjusted salary cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TnT Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 howard got 6m per, not 7. in a very manageable contract. at worst its a wash as far as talent? I think at the very best its a wash at talent and that is wishful thinking. howard was an improving solid young tackle..the most consistant player on the jets oline last year. the way posters around here discard him as a bum and praise idzik for not overpaying to the tune of a half million dollars a year for our starting right tackle is laughable. 3/4 of this board never even heard of breno and all of a sudden its an upgrade pff is not the way to judge talent, my friends Ok...pardon 6 mil Howard improved from his intial year, YES. But that doesnt quite mean that he is "improving" as you say. I HAVE heard of Breno, and Im familiar with him...and I say at worst, its a wash. Not to mention...without any "#1" wr's and hopefully 2-3 "#2's" (anticipating we draft a worthy wr and sign another worthy wr) AND Genos inexperience and as some would say inability,we should probably go with a 55-45%/60-40% run-pass offense...in which BG is a better fit...making him a better option being he is a better run blocker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I don't want Howard. Didn't want this guy either. My bet is the Jets draft someone. Lots of T's in this draft. Can be had in the 3rd, or even 4th rounds. Nothing wrong with that, but you can't assume that this signing would preclude them from drafting OL. You make this kind of signing specifically so you don't go in desperately drafting for need. You do your best to fill out the roster in advance and then have far more freedom. That way, if they don't find guys they value highly enough at the position in their draft slot, they aren't left with a giant hole or making ridiculous reaches for guys because they're scared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Nothing wrong with that, but you can't assume that this signing would preclude them from drafting OL. You make this kind of signing specifically so you don't go in desperately drafting for need. You do your best to fill out the roster in advance and then have far more freedom. That way, if they don't find guys they value highly enough at the position in their draft slot, they aren't left with a giant hole or making ridiculous reaches for guys because they're scared. Yep, and you ESPECIALLY can't play that game on the o-line. Maybe Aboushi is ready to man the RT position, but if you're not sure, you need a veteran in that spot. Otherwise you risk your most important asset, the QB, getting hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 howard got 6m per, not 7. in a very manageable contract. at worst its a wash as far as talent? I think at the very best its a wash at talent and that is wishful thinking. howard was an improving solid young tackle..the most consistant player on the jets oline last year. the way posters around here discard him as a bum and praise idzik for not overpaying to the tune of a half million dollars a year for our starting right tackle is laughable. 3/4 of this board never even heard of breno and all of a sudden its an upgrade pff is not the way to judge talent, my friends The "young" tackle that is Howard is a grand total of one year and change younger than Giacomini. Beyond that you're talking about his supposed superiority over a player you are essentially admitting to know absolutely nothing about. But apparently we should take your word over any advanced metrics designed to study this. Yeah, ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Many, if not most teams know generally what their QB will be. We do not. Of course you fill holes, but you don't necessarily make huge splashes like 1 year deals for CBs at 12M. We're still building this team the right way. Do you think Idzik should go after Schaub? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Do you think Idzik should go after Schaub? Depends on Schaub. I don't think Geno should be "handed" the job, but I think he should need to be beaten quite clearly in training camp not to get it. What we've seen from Schaub is not good enough to merit benching Geno (and stunting future development) if he's a little better at present. If Schaub is willing to take back-up money with the knowledge that he will likely be the back-up, then I think he's a good option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 The "young" tackle that is Howard is a grand total of one year and change younger than Giacomini. Beyond that you're talking about his supposed superiority over a player you are essentially admitting to know absolutely nothing about. But apparently we should take your word over any advanced metrics designed to study this. Yeah, ok. wow. taking much out of context? the fact remains that howard is young.at what point in time did I compare ages? also, at what point in time did I 'essentially" admit I know nothing about breno? you want to discuss things?that's fine. you want to put words in my mouth? discuss it with somebody elese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Cool. So we're just supposed to overpay Howard because "market"? He went to the Raiders. Not exactly a team with a pedigree for accurately valuing talent. They handed Rodger Saffold $42M before he failed his physical. Yeah, I don't think we're the losers here. hence, any players that the raiders sign, they over paid? rule of thumb? ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 1. We don't know the terms of Giacomini's deal yet, so your entire post is based on speculation. 2. It matters greatly what the Raiders did, actually. We had our own price on Howard, an average RT. The Raiders valued him as a top 5 guy. Hence, they got him. I wasn't referring to the contract breno got, so my entire post is not speculation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Ok...pardon 6 mil Howard improved from his intial year, YES. But that doesnt quite mean that he is "improving" as you say. I HAVE heard of Breno, and Im familiar with him...and I say at worst, its a wash. Not to mention...without any "#1" wr's and hopefully 2-3 "#2's" (anticipating we draft a worthy wr and sign another worthy wr) AND Genos inexperience and as some would say inability,we should probably go with a 55-45%/60-40% run-pass offense...in which BG is a better fit...making him a better option being he is a better run blocker. truth be told, I have a long time friend that lives out in seattle, and to make a long story short, seattle is my very distant 2nd favorite team in the league and have been following them for a bout 2 decades now. so lets just say I pay attention. breno is NOT a better tackle than howard in any way,shape, or form regardless of what pff has to say. one can make an argument that he is a lateral move as far as talent goes(me not being one of them) but better in any way is a complete stretch. that's not even bring up the fact of continuity let along injury concerns. and even if I were to buy into breno being a better run blocker than howard, I am to believe that run blocking takes precedence over pass blocking because geno stuggles and the jets need to run more? I don't even know what to say to that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 1.3m to be exact. I am sure with 40m-50m under the capped, they could have 'squeezed' howards & deckers contract in. Yes but overpaying for marginal talent (Howard) always has a price later on. A big price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Yes but overpaying for marginal talent (Howard) always has a price later on. A big price. think about that for a moment. is really a half million dollars a year for your starting right tackle considered over paying? also considering what is going on with the jets offense? I got to tell ya, I think the word over paying is quite the stretch in this scenario. 5.5m vs. 7m? there is an argument to be had there. 5.5m vs. 6m? different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TnT Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 truth be told, I have a long time friend that lives out in seattle, and to make a long story short, seattle is my very distant 2nd favorite team in the league and have been following them for a bout 2 decades now. so lets just say I pay attention. breno is NOT a better tackle than howard in any way,shape, or form regardless of what pff has to say. one can make an argument that he is a lateral move as far as talent goes(me not being one of them) but better in any way is a complete stretch. that's not even bring up the fact of continuity let along injury concerns. and even if I were to buy into breno being a better run blocker than howard, I am to believe that run blocking takes precedence over pass blocking because geno stuggles and the jets need to run more? I don't even know what to say to that You are confusing your opinion with fact. Yeah...the Jets should run more with better run blocking and Genos struggles...Yeah. I think thats what playing to your strengths involves...yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TnT Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 think about that for a moment. is really a half million dollars a year for your starting right tackle considered over paying? It is if your replacements skill plays more into your gameplan and you save a couple mil. Assuming BG is a couple mil less than 6 mil, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 think about that for a moment. is really a half million dollars a year for your starting right tackle considered over paying? also considering what is going on with the jets offense? I got to tell ya, I think the word over paying is quite the stretch in this scenario. 5.5m vs. 7m? there is an argument to be had there. 5.5m vs. 6m? different story. Only if you consider his value to be $500K less. His value is much lower than that. They were already overpaying by $1.5M. That was already too much. Plus the way things played out it looked as though he was going to turn down anything the Jets offered him south of $7M, then take that number to other teams in free agency who would mildly one-up it. Also he kind of sucks. Or he's more or less average (less more than more, though). His "improvement" in pass blocking in 2013 was no improvement at all. Changing from the statue Sanchez to the very mobile Smith is what improved his numbers for sacks and QB pressures surrendered. Really, you should be happy about this. We got a better player (lateral move at worst) for less $ and we're not locked into this mediocrity for the next 2-3 seasons. Someone better comes along, the job belongs to the new guy no questions asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 You are confusing your opinion with fact. Yeah...the Jets should run more with better run blocking and Genos struggles...Yeah. I think thats what playing to your strengths involves...yeah. no. you are confusing your opinion with fact. we both have different "opinions", that's it. your opinion is not a fact for the rest of what you said, i still don't know what to say to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsjetsjetss Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Only if you consider his value to be $500K less. His value is much lower than that. They were already overpaying by $1.5M. That was already too much. Plus the way things played out it looked as though he was going to turn down anything the Jets offered him south of $7M, then take that number to other teams in free agency who would mildly one-up it. Also he kind of sucks. Or he's more or less average (less more than more, though). His "improvement" in pass blocking in 2013 was no improvement at all. Changing from the statue Sanchez to the very mobile Smith is what improved his numbers for sacks and QB pressures surrendered. Really, you should be happy about this. We got a better player (lateral move at worst) for less $ and we're not locked into this mediocrity for the next 2-3 seasons. Someone better comes along, the job belongs to the new guy no questions asked. where are you reading this every espn/BR/Beat writer ive seen so far says giacomini is a slight downgrade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 where are you reading this every espn/BR/Beat writer ive seen so far says giacomini is a slight downgrade For the needs of our team he's not. He was a solid RT for a Seattle team dependent on a downhill running attack. Now he'll be a solid RT for another team dependent on a downhill running attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsjetsjetss Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 For the needs of our team he's not. He was a solid RT for a Seattle team dependent on a downhill running attack. Now he'll be a solid RT for another team dependent on a downhill running attack. im not knocking the sign just everyone says he is graded lower in pass protection and equal in run blocking so its a slight downgrade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 where are you reading this every espn/BR/Beat writer ive seen so far says giacomini is a slight downgrade 1) Think it was PFF's ranking of free agent tackles. 2) Every Jets beat writer is stupid and gets off on writing inflammatory things about the team even when there's nothing there. The ESPN beat writer is freaking Cimini. He's made a career out of bashing the Jets even when he was with the DN. Children writing on Bleacher Report is not worth commenting on. The other beat writer is Mehta who knows nothing about anything and is purely spiteful towards the franchise, far more than even Cimini ever was at his old post. So now, who says it's a downgrade that has any credibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Here are some numbers to support my claims, courtesy of footballoutsiders: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol (NOTE: I understand that Giacomini missed 7 games. From a per play standpoint this basically washes out): Seattle running off right end (behind Giacominin): 4.13 Adjusted Line Yards (8th) Jets off right end (behind Howard): 3.25 ALY (24th) Seattle off right tackle: 4.14 ALY (12th) Jets off right tackle: 3.16 ALY (28th) Clearly an upgrade in the run blocking department. This is the caliber of play we haven't had at that spot since Damien Woody retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 im not knocking the sign just everyone says he is graded lower in pass protection and equal in run blocking so its a slight downgrade He's definitely a solid upgrade in the run blocking category. Which, considering we're basically a 60/40 running team, is a good thing to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsjetsjetss Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 He's definitely a solid upgrade in the run blocking category. Which, considering we're basically a 60/40 running team, is a good thing to have. bad things happen when we cant pass protect though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 bad things happen when we cant pass protect though Except that one time when Sanchez got injured and never played another down for the Jets. That was a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TnT Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 bad things happen when we cant pass protect though Lol Good things happen when your play action is more effective. I guess we can do this all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Thing is, Seattle had the 32nd ranked pass protecting line overall per Footballoutsiders. Robert Quinn's Rams ate them alive, and if I recall correctly, Arizona's front 7 wreaked havoc on them in Week 17. And yet they won a Super Bowl. So...... (I take from that data that it's nice to have a mobile QB and strong running game. Which we kind of have.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TnT Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 no. you are confusing your opinion with fact. we both have different "opinions", that's it. your opinion is not a fact Ure absolutely right...fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedin Green Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 wow. taking much out of context? the fact remains that howard is young.at what point in time did I compare ages? also, at what point in time did I 'essentially" admit I know nothing about breno? you want to discuss things?that's fine. you want to put words in my mouth? discuss it with somebody elese You said nobody around here knew anything about Breno. So you are either claiming to know more than everyone else around here, simply because you say so, or admitting that you are amongst those who know nothing about him. And when you are comparing the two players and then start to go on about the age and upside of one, and only one, the implication is that this is a benefit one player has over the other. So you were either completely unaware of the situation, which I was trying to fill you in on, or being intentionally disingenuous. Sorry, but no combination of those circumstances are really going to make your argument look any better at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 You said nobody around here knew anything about Breno. So you are either claiming to know more than everyone else around here, simply because you say so, or admitting that you are amongst those who know nothing about him. And when you are comparing the two players and then start to go on about the age and upside of one, and only one, the implication is that this is a benefit one player has over the other. So you were either completely unaware of the situation, which I was trying to fill you in on, or being intentionally disingenuous. Sorry, but no combination of those circumstances are really going to make your argument look any better at all. what does that mean?" simply because I say so"!! why else would I say something. because you say so? stupid. I said 3/4 of the board didn't know about breno until 2 days ago. maybe I am off, but that's what I believe. I do know who breno is and I do believe I have a better understanding than most on this board about this particular player.lets just say today is not my only conversation that I ever had about breno. I also simply stated howard was a young player, which he is. I was not compairing ages at all. i was totally aware of the situation.i assure you i was not being intentionally disingenuous. I was only compairing talent levels, which I still stand by my evaluation.i guess we will see. with any luck, i am totally off base here and he totally is an upgrade at the tackle position. i will still be hear to take my lumps. i just don't see it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Ure absolutely right...fair enough. thanx. and for what its worth, i hope you are right and i am wrong. i am just not seeing it. time will tell. on the bright side,either Austin or breno, idzik didn't waste time getting the position filled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TnT Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 thanx. and for what its worth, i hope you are right and i am wrong. i am just not seeing it. time will tell. on the bright side,either Austin or breno, idzik didn't waste time getting the position filled we can only hope sir, and I would be too happy to tell you I told you so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Here are some numbers to support my claims, courtesy of footballoutsiders: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol (NOTE: I understand that Giacomini missed 7 games. From a per play standpoint this basically washes out): Seattle running off right end (behind Giacominin): 4.13 Adjusted Line Yards (8th) Jets off right end (behind Howard): 3.25 ALY (24th) Seattle off right tackle: 4.14 ALY (12th) Jets off right tackle: 3.16 ALY (28th) Clearly an upgrade in the run blocking department. This is the caliber of play we haven't had at that spot since Damien Woody retired. these numbers you pulled up, are they for the particular player or the right side as a whole? meaning rg & rt. if its the latter, there are a lot of intangibles that are not being considered here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 we can only hope sir, and I would be too happy to tell you I told you so. i am sure you will and if it works out that way, i would be happy to hear it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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