Real problems vs. reactionary narratives

[phill1c]

3 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Chad Pennington and Rex Ryan are the two biggest curses this franchise ever had because they both appeared to be something they weren't.

Chad was supposed to be some 'warrior', Rex some defensive 'genius'.  We got played by both, ruined decades of opportunity for us.

SAR I

OMG

 Somehow, in this mans warped mind, he can support Fitzpatrick and denigrate Chad Pennington. THEY ARE THE SAME PLAYER except one actually WON and the other CHOKES. Somehow, you value the choking over the winning.

mind boggling.

[Kevin L]

6 minutes ago, SAR I said:

You can't have it three ways, Kevin. 

You can't say that with Geno Smith as our quarterback we'd be 3-1 with this defense, this coaching staff, this running game, this schedule.  And you can't say we should be better than 1-3 with Ryan Fitzpatrick and that he's somehow disappointing you when you knew he wasn't a good quarterback going in.  And you can't say that we should be better than we are right now unless you had unrealistic expectations because of all the summer hype.

Pick a thesis so we at least know who and what we are debating here.  The moving target is getting tired.

SAR I

 

I never brought up Geno so moot point.

I believe our record would be better if Fitz were playing up to his average.

It's not unreasonable to expect an average QB to at least play average, instead of being the worst.

 

[Integrity28]

2 minutes ago, phill1c said:

I've never said that because Fitz is bad it makes Geno good. I don't know what we have in Smith. I know what I've seen with Fitzpatrick and would like ANYONE to get a shot at making the Jets offense perform better. Right now, the next in line is Smith. So, I want him.

No, you don't need to say it, it's implicit in your bad logic.

Just now, phill1c said:

Geno haters are making it about Fitzpatrick vs. Smith.

I want a change.

But, to be accurate NOBODY who has EVER played QB for the Jets has played as bad as Fitzpatrick has these last few weeks.

Again, you aren't telling anyone anything they don't already know and agree with. So, what's your point? Was the conversation about the defense over your head, so you needed to insist on bringing it into your comfort zone?

Nobody is making excuses for Fitz, so what is the point in derailing a perfect good conversation about the rest of this sh*tshow, to make sure people know Fitz is playing bad. We know. Everyone knows. The entire NFL fanbase is laughing at us over it. 

This conversation, that you've stifled, was about the rest of the mess. Talking about the rest of the mess doesn't automatically forgive Fitz. Fitz playing awful is a given. It doesn't require exhaustive discussion. Most people aren't thinking about the rest of the problems though, so we were trying to explore them. Because, let's say we switch to Geno or Petty or Jesus H. Christ at QB... and we're still losing because: other problems.

[Integrity28]

Just now, Kevin L said:

It's not unreasonable to expect an average QB to at least play average, instead of being the worst.

 

Nobody drawing breath disagrees with this.

[Integrity28]

6 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Geno haters are making it about Fitzpatrick vs. Smith.

 

Also, this has literally never been the case on this site. Ever.

 

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, LIJetsFan said:

How dumb is the bold?  Instead of putting point up on the board Sixpatrick turns it over in or near the red zone and you think that that is not so bad, that that is not crushing this team.

....and another genius who sees the number "10" in the interception column and thinks he has found the cure.  Eureka!

All but 1 of Ryan Fitzpatrick's interceptions occurred when we were trailing by at least two scores in the second half of games, the vast majority of those coming in desperation garbage time in the 4th quarter where he and Gailey are trying to get a quick score against a stacked prevent secondary.

I know it's hard to go to NFL websites and take a few minutes to pull stats that mean something, but it has to be done.

SAR I

[phill1c]

1 minute ago, Integrity28 said:

Was the conversation about the defense over your head, so you needed to insist on bringing it into your comfort zone?

Mr Integrity,

if all you're going to do is hurl insults instead of reading what I wrote about the defensive shortcomings and my recommended remedies then maybe we should not engage with each other.

I mentioned, more than once, NOT playing 4 DL, benching Gilchrist, benching Harris, playing more zone.

Apparently, you didn't' read those posts and, instead, chose to focus your attention on what you're most comfortable with, Insulting Geno Smith fans.

[LWC611]

6 hours ago, SAR I said:

Just stop with the interceptions already.  The number isn't a reflection of reality or game situations. 

He had a bad game in Kansas City.  Lots of quarterbacks do. 

Almost all of his interceptions were in the 4th quarter in garbage time desperately trying to mount a comeback.  Fitzpatrick is playing decently, he's not the problem.

SAR I

The most interceptions that have been thrown in a game I believe is 7, thus  I would say that six interceptions worse than a bad game, but we can agree to disagree.  I agree a lot of QBs have bad games, but that is a relative term.  You appear to be giving him a pass on the KC game, I am not.  In fact I wanted him benched after the 4th interception.  He threw five straight interceptions  the Jets last drive in the third quarter and every drive of the 4th.  I do not see that as garbage time but again we can agree to disagree.

My statement was in response to a poster who said "two more weeks of this and he will be riding pine.  I think if his next game looks like the last two he should sit.

I never said he was the problem. However I believe that nine interceptions in two games is a problem.

 

[phill1c]

2 minutes ago, SAR I said:

All but 1 of Ryan Fitzpatrick's interceptions occurred when we were trailing by at least two scores in the second half of games

Shouldn't we be ahead some of the time? Is it too much to ask to not be two scores behind every 4th quarter?

Good QBing means scoring early AND OFTEN in games and not needing to be playing catch up. Good QBs don't squander drives so that a FG is the best outcome. How many drives has it been where the Jets offense stalls in the red zone? more than a few. HOw many Red Zone turnovers have led to the Jets playing from behind? MANY.

Integrity: you see here that it's the absurd defending of Fitzpatrick that brings up the topic, not Geno Smith supporters.

[Integrity28]

2 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Mr Integrity,

if all you're going to do is hurl insults instead of reading what I wrote about the defensive shortcomings and my recommended remedies then maybe we should not engage with each other.

I mentioned, more than once, NOT playing 4 DL, benching Gilchrist, benching Harris, playing more zone.

Apparently, you didn't' read those posts and, instead, chose to focus your attention on what you're most comfortable with, Insulting Geno Smith fans.

I read them, responded to them. 

I'm mostly reading you stating the same nonsense about Fitz/Geno over and over though... and responding to that. 

And, I referred initially to geno's dopey supporters, which you took personally. That's less about me "attacking" and more about you knowing your infringing upon it.

I encourage you to put me on ignore. I already asked you several times to stop derailing the thread. It's up to you to make it happen... 

[Integrity28]

Just now, phill1c said:

Shouldn't we be ahead some of the time? Is it too much to ask to not be two scores behind every 4th quarter?

Good QBing means scoring early AND OFTEN in games and not needing to be playing catch up. Good QBs don't squander drives so that a FG is the best outcome. How many drives has it been where the Jets offense stalls in the red zone? more than a few. HOw many Red Zone turnovers have led to the Jets playing from behind? MANY.

Integrity: you see here that it's the absurd defending of Fitzpatrick that brings up the topic, not Geno Smith supporters.

I see SAR ******* with you, because: dopey.

[SAR I]

51 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Is Fitzpatrick dating your sister?!

Playing from behind WHEN YOU HAVEN'T LED TD SCORING DRIVES is an absurd excuse.

The jets are behind because the Jets offense routinely squanders its opening drive, settling for FGs. And then, once the defense 'figures Fitz out' [starts covering the first read] we have to wait until the Jets get behind before he changes the tempo, goes to a hurry up, and gets the balls to throw farther downfield. That's usually the last drive of the half. Meanwhile, the Jets defense, after several 3-and-outs, is exposed and ****s up (admittedly, they screw up).

The constant defense of one of the worst QBs in the league seems so ridiculous and I have to wonder about the sanity and knowledge of football fans who can watch this dreck and complain about something other than 4 TD passes in his last 4 games!! with 10 INTs. That's just pathetic as is the excuse making.

If you thought the Jets had a chance at a winning season this year then you bought into the "dominant defense" theory which meant our beastly front seven were going to generate a ton of fumbles, interceptions, and fourth and longs which were going to lead to terrific field position for our weaksauce journeyman quarterback.

None of this is happening.

Furthermore, our D is so pathetic we fall behind early and often and before you know it we are down by two scores to an elite playoff team, Gailey can no longer try to run, the journeyman is asked to gunsling when he's not a gunslinger, and we lose games.

No one is defending Ryan Fitzpatrick.  We are not stupid.  We know who he is.  The only way Ryan Fitzpatrick wins football games against 12-4 caliber teams is if our defense is monstrous and creates points, turnovers, and field position.  They are not doing this.  Those who thought we had playoff potential expected this.

SAR I

[phill1c]

Just now, Integrity28 said:

I'm mostly reading you stating the same nonsense about Fitz/Geno over and over though... and responding to that

Then don't respond. Consider that.

[Kevin L]

Just now, LWC611 said:

The most interceptions that have been thrown in a game I believe is 7, thus  I would say that six interceptions worse than a bad game, but we can agree to disagree.  I agree a lot of QBs have bad games, but that is a relative term.  You appear to be giving him a pass on the KC game, I am not.  In fact I wanted him benched after the 4th interception.  He threw five straight interceptions  the Jets last drive in the third quarter and every drive of the 4th.  I do not see that as garbage time but again we can agree to disagree.

My statement was in response to a poster who said "two more weeks of this and he will be riding pine.  I think if his next game looks like the last two he should sit.

I never said he was the problem. However I believe that nine interceptions in two games is a problem.

 

Exactly. In what bizzaro world do turnovers not matter? The excuse that we're playing catch up is fine, but why are we playing catch up in the first place? Because our offense can't score and our D isn't elite enough to hold teams to 14 points a game.

[SAR I]

55 minutes ago, Kevin L said:

Ah, I see. So when someone posts that the turnovers are no big deal, and that the QB is the least of our worries, no on can disagree? That's being "disruptive"?

Again, I don't disagree that the defense is bad. I disagree with the few posters who think the QB isn't as bad if not worse.

Your argument seems to be "we should have tanked in 2011 so we could have drafted Andrew Luck and then we wouldn't be in this predicament", it doesn't help us here in 2016.

SAR I

[Integrity28]

Just now, phill1c said:

Then don't respond. Consider that.

No, that's not how it works. You're the one whining about name-calling. If you don't like it, do something about it. Put me on ignore, or leave the thread like I suggested.

I have no problem with the discourse. I think your myopic focus brings the conversation to a pedestrian level of football acumen, and I've told you such. That's my contribution. We were talking about all the teams problems, then you insisted on focusing on one of them, and then I told you it's a bore. Now you're getting all sensitive.

I've told you what you need to do, if you don't want to hear my thoughts about your thoughts. Do it. Otherwise, stop the bellyaching.

[SAR I]

56 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Based on player investment and a DC/secondary coach for a HC, it's not an unreasonable expectation.

1. Mo = $17M/yr UFA/franchise player contract in 2016
2. Sheldon = 1st rd pick #13 overall (still on his rookie deal)
3. Williams = 1st rd pick #6 overall (still on his rookie deal)
4. Coples = 1st rd pick (cut midseason last year)
5. Milliner = 1st rd pick #9 overall (cut just before this season)
6. Revis = $16M/yr UFA contract in 2015
7. Cromartie = $7M UFA in 2015. Cut after 1 season.
8. Skrine = $6.25M/yr UFA in 2015. This is top dollar for a NB
9. Pryor = 1st rd pick #18 overall (still on rookie deal)
10. Gilchrist = $5.5M UFA contract in 2015
11. Lee = 1st rd pick #20 overall
12. Harris = $7.5M/yr UFA contract in 2015
13. McLendon = $3.5M/yr UFA contract in 2016
14. Jarvis Jenkins = $3M/yr UFA contract in 2016
15. Erin Henderson = $2M/yr UFA contract in 2016
16. Mauldin = 3rd rd pick in 2015
17. Jordan Jenkins = 3rd rd pick in 2016
18. Burris = 4th rd pick in 2016
19. M.Williams = inherited Hou trash heap pickup from 2014. Has flaws but is cheap and does come down with some picks. RFA in 2017.
20. HEAD COACH = experienced, successful DB coach and DC hired to be the HC in 2015

Additional note, 2016 UFAs from other teams cancel out would-be 2017 compensatory draft picks (most likely would have been 4th rounder for Snacks, 5th rounder for Ivory, 6th rounder for D.Davis).

This is a ridiculous investment in just one side of the ball. All the totally justified Fitz criticism notwithstanding, the Jets absolutely should have one of the best defenses in the league.

And boom goes the dynamite.

I can't believe we are even discussing quarterback play in the context of what our defense is supposed to be and isn't.  The 2016 Jets defense might be the biggest single disappointment in team history, it is absolutely our problem and it's absolutely worth discussing.

SAR I

[Sperm Edwards]

3 minutes ago, SAR I said:

And boom goes the dynamite.

I can't believe we are even discussing quarterback play in the context of what our defense is supposed to be and isn't.  The 2016 Jets defense might be the biggest single disappointment in team history, it is absolutely our problem and it's absolutely worth discussing.

SAR I

It's worth discussing when the guy's thrown 9 picks in 2 games, not including 5 other easy picks that were dropped or sailed right through a defenders hands. In particular when the team felt no rush to get a better or more polished prospect than Hackenberg because they felt re-signing Fitz was always an option in their back pocket. Speaks to their judgment, and so does the failure to pull him no matter how badly he plays.

The D is a bigger disappointment for most (myself included), but only because I thought Fitz sucked before.

[Kevin L]

5 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Your argument seems to be "we should have tanked in 2011 so we could have drafted Andrew Luck and then we wouldn't be in this predicament", it doesn't help us here in 2016.

SAR I

You have a quote on that? First I think Fitz is Montana, now I'm talking about Luck? Where?

Your argument seems to be "If we don't have the 2000 Ravens defense, how can anyone reasonably expect Fitz to not turn the ball over?"

[LWC611]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It's worth discussing when the guy's thrown 9 picks in 2 games, not including 5 other easy picks that were dropped or sailed right through a defenders hands. In particular when the team felt no rush to get a better or more polished prospect than Hackenberg because they felt re-signing Fitz was always an option in their back pocket. Speaks to their judgment, and so does the failure to pull him no matter how badly he plays.

The D is a bigger disappointment for most (myself included), but only because I thought Fitz sucked before.

Thanks..... I believe we are all disappointed in our D but I am not going to give Fitz a pass ....

[SAR I]

23 minutes ago, phill1c said:

OMG

 Somehow, in this mans warped mind, he can support Fitzpatrick and denigrate Chad Pennington. THEY ARE THE SAME PLAYER except one actually WON and the other CHOKES. Somehow, you value the choking over the winning.

mind boggling.

For the 200th time I AM NOT A SUPPORTER OF RYAN FITZPATRICK.

I just know his is the best option for this team until Bryce Petty comes back from injury and might be worth a diceroll.

And which of the two quarterbacks you reference "won" again? LOL.  I actually liked it better when you blamed our woes on racism, it was more original.

SAR I

[Big Blocker]

55 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Again, they "held them" to 17 points because KC was just playing ball control. Two drives that lasted 25 minutes says we couldn't stop them from moving it. KC just isn't a high scoring offense in general.

Yes.  Those who miss the point either were not watching or don't know how to watch. KC understands just how TOP can be  a major weapon and strategy in winning games. 

[Sperm Edwards]

2 minutes ago, LWC611 said:

Thanks..... I believe we are all disappointed in our D but I am not going to give Fitz a pass ....

There's a pun in here about Fitz's passes, but it's escaping me at the moment. Any help would be much appreciated.

[Rangers9]

The scheme esp with the secondary is going to have to change and anybody not following their assignments should be benched. There should be no miscommunication tolerated or secondary breakdowns on a recurring basis. The Jets spent a lot of money to improve the secondary and it's not good at all. And we have a good DL and improvement at the linebacker position. I mean Lee can potentially cover skill position players and better than most LBs in the NFL. 

[SAR I]

25 minutes ago, Kevin L said:

I never brought up Geno so moot point.

I believe our record would be better if Fitz were playing up to his average.

It's not unreasonable to expect an average QB to at least play average, instead of being the worst.

If Ryan Fitzpatrick didn't throw a single interception this season we'd still be 1-3.

SAR I

[peebag]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

There's a pun in here about Fitz's passes, but it's escaping me at the moment. Any help would be much appreciated.

interception.

[Big Blocker]

56 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You bet. I get the reason why, but they could give the offense the ball back at the spot of the fumble. Changing possession is idiotic. It's not like we swatted it out or anything. I'm not sure we even got a fingertip on the ball, let alone recover it cleanly.

A Jet defender (I don't recall who) hit the ball carrier, but I do not recall the Jet defender actually knocking the ball loose directly, meaning aside from hitting the carrier.

[Kevin L]

4 minutes ago, SAR I said:

If Ryan Fitzpatrick didn't throw a single interception this season we'd still be 1-3.

SAR I

Lol sure.

[EM31]

1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

This is the other reason you get mocked... because NOBODY gives a **** about the hypothetical possibilities of Geno playing are. He played some of the worst football we've ever seen, just like Fitz the past two weeks. 

Not every thread needs to be about Geno and Fitz. Find another. Nobody believes Fitz is playing well. Few people thing Geno can play well. Most people want to see Petty or Hack, because they are queued up as teh only 2 QBs that will be rostered next year, of these 4. Stop beating the horse. Your argument is stupid, thanks for taking a comprehensive discussion about the flaws of this team, and reducing it to the base level intellectually dishonest crap sh*t **** show that we've all had to endure the past 6 month. I'm sure everyone is glad that these points are being covered off on ... again.

Six months is a low-ball number.  You are being uncharacteristically generous with that.

For me the defense has been the biggest disappointment so far this year.  Plus the evidence seems to be forming into a growing pile that we may have hired yet another coach who is not up to the job.  It takes quite a long while to get rid of one of those if he turns out not to be salvageable.  I fear we may be looking at an anti-Rex analog of Rex.

I would say that the Geno window for the Jets is almost completely closed at this point except that it is not completely closed.  If Fitzpatrick gets injured in the next three games AND if we are not completely out of it then we are looking at Geno-time simply because that is the way that the FO set this thing up.  Beyond three games from now I think it is Bryce Petty time period.  God forbid we get about 3-6 weeks worth of Geno this season with predictably inconsistent results against weaker opponents.  Then this team and its fan base could find itself pulled back into the "what to do with Geno?" black hole.

On the plus side I have to say the the offensive line has been better than I anticipated so there is that.

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, Big Blocker said:

Yes.  Those who miss the point either were not watching or don't know how to watch. KC understands just how TOP can be  a major weapon and strategy in winning games. 

Would have been senseless for them to attempt quick strikes downfield with Alex Smith. No, just keep the offense on the field and our offense off it. Again, it's stupid luck they didn't get another TD on the fumble and the score would have resembled the domination that it was on screen. How the hell could they eat up 25 minutes in the first half on just 2 drives? I mean, can you recall ever having seen that happen before?

Not to mention their 1st half drive in between those two, where they took over on our 35 after Fitz's first pick, and ran 3 conservative plays for >10 yards a pop, right into the EZ. So they scored fast on that one without even trying to score fast.

Ugh.

[cant wait]

2 minutes ago, SAR I said:

If Ryan Fitzpatrick didn't throw a single interception this season we'd still be 1-3.

SAR I

If Ryan Fitzpatrick threw TD's instead of INT's the jets would be 4-0 and in first place

[Sperm Edwards]

7 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

A Jet defender (I don't recall who) hit the ball carrier, but I do not recall the Jet defender actually knocking the ball loose directly, meaning aside from hitting the carrier.

It was a normal tackle and he just coughed it up. Thing is, we'd have gotten the ball anyway even if it was a fumble like Gore's last year where nobody even touched him.

It's an incredibly stupid rule. 

[Big Blocker]

45 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Yea, there's literally NOBODY arguing that Fitz should still be the starter right now. 9 interceptions in 2 weeks, and you dopey Geno supporters are still yelling at the wall to convince someone, anyone that Fitz is terrible... meanwhile... nobody wants to see this sh*t continue.

But, what happens when Geno or any other inexperienced QB gets in the game, and is still averaging 3 turnovers a game... and the defense still sucks... can we move on to that part of the problem?

Or, would you prefer to keep everything talked about here on the baseline of idiocy?

Um, to be clear I think he should be by default.  By default I mean I don't expect anyone else to do better, and until we know Petty is back and the CS think he's ready, Fitz is still the best option.  I can certainly see the argument that he should have been pulled in the KC game after the fourth int, but I also see how it probably would not have made a difference at that point. 

I am not afraid to be called a Fitz fan by the Smith Fans.  They have no perspective, and in fact are irrelevant.  For myself I was hoping most of the off season, until it looked like no other options were realistic, that someone other than Fitz be obtained.  My preference for Fitz such as it is/was is/was always a relative one, compared to the stinking pile that is Geno Smith.  beyond that comparator I don't consider myself a Fitz fan.  He might be a nice guy and all, but he's far from my choice for who should be the Qb.  Except for right now.

The season looks awful right now, but the worst game I expected before it began, against the Cards, does not look near so daunting right now.  Pitt will probably be a loss, but they have not looked consistently good, either.  Point is that RIGHT NOW I have no reason to think Petty is ready/healthy, and the season really is not over. 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, phill1c said:

Then we somehow are on the same page. Yet you threw out an insult to Smith fans, why? the only reason I can fathom is that your desire to ensure Smith doesn't play outweighs the desire to have a GOOD QB play for the Jets.

"Geno Play" and "Good QB Play" are mutually exclusive terms.  You tell me what that makes "Geno Fans" who, unlike Fitz Fans, still think Geno is the real deal with Franchise QB Potential.

Quote

Fitzpatrick needs to go. He sucks.

So it seems.  Geno also needs to go.  He sucks.  He has no future here of any kind no matter how much his small cadre of fans talk up his "potential".

So seems Petty is the man, eh?  Soon as he's healthy then?

Quote

Again, is he marrying your sister because there really is no defending him at this point.

Did Geno have sexual relations with your Dad with your Mom watching?

I presume the answer to both question is the same.

[Big Blocker]

25 minutes ago, Kevin L said:

You have a quote on that? First I think Fitz is Montana, now I'm talking about Luck? Where?

Your argument seems to be "If we don't have the 2000 Ravens defense, how can anyone reasonably expect Fitz to not turn the ball over?"

Enough of this bs thread derailment by Smith Fans.  They are incapable of staying on topic, but can we not get them called on it?  This phony quote is such an unfair restatement of the discussion here it is trolling.