Cimini with a positive take?

[Smashmouth]

11 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

You are the only one talking about Strevelers package. 

I see I see lol

[TBJ]

11 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

You are the only one talking about Strevelers package. 

Ground and pound with a wildcat twist = Flacco throwing the ball 59 times.

Result: same = same.

[More Cowbell]

11 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

So?

If you're not going to play him anyway, why does it matter if he gets hurt.  I mean Fant has just as big a chance to be a turnstile with Flacco QBing...Why would that change with Streveler - in fact I'll go further and say - Streveler is far less likely to be caught off-guard with a sack due to his mobility...Moreover, I don't think you would be bringing in Streveler to do 5 steps drop backs...

I must say I'm confused by this response.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

The Jets think Streveler showed enough in preseason garbage time to make the practice squad, not the active roster. There is no need to bring in a guy like that and expose him to injury like this. Streveler is not going to win the game for us. If you are talking about him making a play with his legs, I rather see Berrios running a wildcat. It also has zero chance of happening. Who do the Jets waive to make room on the active roster?

[Smashmouth]

14 hours ago, Chewy and the Jets said:

I understand overreaction Monday is in effect for bout half the teams.  Actually more than half, teams like the Giants and their fans probably feeling a bit too happy.  Better than how we feeling though for sure.  This was no overreaction.  This was a team totally unprepared to compete.  A team with no energy.  A team that came out in front of an opening day crowd and effectively scored 3 meaningful points over 60 minutes.  It was putrid.  It was exactly what we've seen over the past 5 years despite being told how improved we were going to be.   Watching Joe Flacco stand back their like Father Time was absolutely brutal.  And any time we had the slightest whiff of good play we would follow it with a missed FG, Fumble, or a penalty.  No urgency, no guts, no balls.  And for that coach to come out and show more fire against his own customers than he's ever been with a player is pathetic.  Here's an idea:  why not come out like the Seahawks last night behind Geno freaking Smith and play with the heart of a champion against an opponent supposedly much better than them.  And watch as Baltimore gets smoked next week because they're actually not that good, just a heckuva alot better than the team and staff we trot out on the field each year.  Opening Day and half the stadium is empty by the 3rd quarter and he is a challenging the fans and telling us that he's gonna remember this?  How about field a team that we can be proud of and actually enjoy watch playing for our hard earned time and dollars.  Seriously Salah lost a lot of points in my book with that nonsense.  I and many others were there ready to rock and they just sh*t the bed once again.  Thant's it, thanks for listening. 

The Defense looked like the real deal containing Lamar and only giving up 84 total yards in the first half. They did their Job . What cost them was one broken play on the 55 yard pass and a great catch by a receiver with Bryce Hall all over him who made a great catch. which accounted for 80 of the Ravens 274 yards . This defense gave us a lot to be excited about because they can clean up those few mistakes

As for the offense the OL settled down after the first quarter when they were terrible. Joe Flacco was the reason this offense looked flat. The Ravens were coming at him and he did absolutely nothing to get the ball out quicker on some plays he was still exceeding 3.5 seconds + and you can not contain a team like the ravens for that long UNLESS you can move in the pocket or out of the pocket Joe can do neither of these things and it was on him that this team looked flat on offense.

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, More Cowbell said:

The Jets think Streveler showed enough in preseason garbage time to make the practice squad, not the active roster. There is no need to bring in a guy like that and expose him to injury like this. Streveler is not going to win the game for us. If you are talking about him making a play with his legs, I rather see Berrios running a wildcat. It also has zero chance of happening. Who do the Jets waive to make room on the active roster?

I don't think they have to cut anybody.  They just have to leave another guy inactive.  I think under the new rules they can use a couple of guys from the practice squad on the gameday roster.  Did that change?

[More Cowbell]

16 hours ago, Stark said:

Greeny is the biggest b!tch a$$ JETS fan. I don't care what his whiny a$$ takes are. 

I agree everyone is overreacting like normal. 

Greeny "HUGE JETS FAN" - and no I don't care that you are hosting a show and Kraft is on. no way you put on that jersey. 

 

I'm pretty sure Geenie lost a bet that day. 

[More Cowbell]

8 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't think they have to cut anybody.  They just have to leave another guy inactive.  I think under the new rules they can use a couple of guys from the practice squad on the gameday roster.  Did that change?

Actually there was a rule change that PS players can be elevated to the active roster 3 times a season before they need to be signed by the team. The question is do Saleh trust Streveler to do this. 

[#27TheDominator]

41 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Actually there was a rule change that PS players can be elevated to the active roster 3 times a season before they need to be signed by the team. The question is do Saleh trust Streveler to do this. 

I don't know that I would do it, but it is not a crazy idea.  You should be able to package something for a QB that runs a 4.4.  IMO, the main reason not to is that the plays were often working but being let down by simple miscues - drops, fumbles, missed pickups, etc.  Taking the opportunity away from the regular offense probably isn't the answer and might just lose the opportunity for that one big play.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

I don't know that I would do it, but it is not a crazy idea.  You should be able to package something for a QB that runs a 4.4.  IMO, the main reason not to is that the plays were often working but being let down by simple miscues - drops, fumbles, missed pickups, etc.  Taking the opportunity away from the regular offense probably isn't the answer and might just lose the opportunity for that one big play.

snap counts:

 

moore:  75

davis:    57

wilson:  41

Berrios:  39

cager:  10

 

they need to fix this before they put in a package for strev.

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

snap counts:

 

moore:  75

davis:    57

wilson:  41

Berrios:  39

cager:  10

 

they need to fix this before they put in a package for strev.

I don't know what point you think is crystal clear here.  If anything this distribution makes perfect sense to me.  Moore and Wilson are probably their two favorites.  Wilson is still learning so probably is a bit limited.  Davis is the ostensible #1, but not particularly great.  Berrios is limited to mainly slot.  10 snaps for Cager makes sense considering how much they seem to like him and that the other 3 TEs all missed much of camp with injuries.  Or is this just another Mims:  0 complaint?  

[Sperm Edwards]

17 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I kind of wondered this too.  I think less of Streveler than most.  He throws funny and his "success" was against dregs.  OTOH, he is fast and I think for a game or a few plays you can scheme some success with a guy like that.  They may not want to monkey with the entire offensive program, but for a few plays?  I'd dust off the ol' wing T if I thought we could get a first down.

I don't understand what they have against White.  I have to assume that it something with his command or his INTs.  He threw a bunch, but they were against good teams.  I guess they feel he can be baited or fooled into throwing them. 

Yardage-wise, White was a monster.  202 in 72% of the snaps against NE extrapolates to 280 for a full game (counterpoint - it was a rout and the Pats were in prevent) (counter-counterpoint ok but the Pats were #2 in passing yards allowed last year).  405 against the Bengals (counterpoint it was all dumpoffs) (counter-counterpoint blow me).  95 in 18% of the snaps against the Colts extrapolates to 528 yards!  (counterpoint phantom injury) (additional counterpoint Josh Johnson threw for 317 which would be 440 over a full game, so ho hum, slightly better than Josh Johnson) (additional additional counterpoint threw at least one very interceptable ball).  251 against the Bills.  (counterpoint 4 INTS!) (additional counterpoint Flacco threw for 47 yards in only 6 snaps!) (counter-counterpoint the only QBs to throw for more yards against the Bills #1 D last year were Mahomes at 272 and Brady@363, then Mahomes again in the playoffs for 378 but 69 of that came in OT, plus over a full game White would have thrown 272.8).

Their handling of White seemed strange.  They kept him over a drafted player and never brought in a vet.  Then he played fairly well.  He had the strange phantom-y injury against the Colts, but they trotted him out again against the Bills.  He kept throwing picks against the Bills, but strangely - he threw INTs to end three straight drives, but then they let him keep going and he threw TDs on 2 of his final 3 drives (the third was a turnover on downs).  They pulled him after an unnecessary roughness for Flacco.  They rolled with Flacco against the Dolphins presumably because they felt White was getting baited into picks and the Dolphins D was considered stout.  They only finished mid-pack, but we all saw what they did to Mac Jones.  After the season, they tendered White, but not at a high level and nobody bit.  Seems odd. 

I keep hearing that he can be a long-term backup, but if that were the case 1.  Why isn't he backing up?  2.  Why didn't they sign him to a longer term team friendly deal?  Some will claim this is to avoid competition with Wilson, but if they thought he could start over Wilson, then why not lock him up?  Also, they are getting to the points where they need wins, no matter where they come from.  I think they might just feel White can be effective but is too soft.  It seems strange since Wilson gives a soft vibe, but White also didn't finish two of his 3 starts. 

I’ve got no issues with them replacing Flacco with White, other than the issue of having bothered to sign Flacco in the first place lol.

Loved your counter & counter-counter points above with one exception that’s been repeated previously by others.

The Bills game yardage never seemed convincing to me. If someone is just so wild he keeps throwing picks, it’s not a silver lining that there was more yardage along the way. The reason everyone doesn’t do that is they’re more controlled & don’t just wing it without regard for how many defenders are right there. Moreover, he threw “only” 4 INTs but that’s because 3 more were dropped.

That’s not a credit to a job well done — that’s just lucky, which is something one doesn’t use when assessing what’s a future likelihood (luck, rather than, “How often did he throw the ball right at a defender,” in the same way a CS doesn’t blame a QB for a pick that happened only because the target slipped & fell with the ball in the air, or because a pass bounced up/off a target’s hands, chest, or facemask right into the arms of a defender who didn’t drop it. 

I’ll grant him that the game was put away early enough, though, and Buffalo’s lead might’ve been cut to 11 - and not likely, but possibly just 7 - at the half if Davis hadn’t fumbled. With Buffalo scoring on the opening drive, and White first touching the ball in the 2nd half already down 21, it’s not a clean slate & he did throw 3 of his 4 picks after that point.

Also not all of Buffalo’s lack of passing yards against was due to utter domination. Their rush D was pretty schizo, often giving up gobs of yards on the ground (less need to pass 40+ times), and they faced a lot of lesser passing offenses (Pit, Car, Jets x2, Mia x2, Jax, WFT, Hou, NO with Siemian, and NE x3 if you include the playoffs).

• Two badly weakened has-beens, 7 rookie QB games, 2 Miami & 1 WFT game managers, and NO’s 3rd stringer.
• Plus Wentz had no need to complete a pass with over 5 yards of air and Indy still blew out Buffalo, the way Taylor steamrolled them.
• A high scoring game vs Ten saw Tannehill attempt <30 passes as Henry averaged 7 ypc.
• Ryan was also held in check, but he also barely threw it in comparison to White.
• That’s what, 15 of their 18 games? Usually a full season weeds the stats for out up to a handful of outlier games, but in this case with Buffalo last year I don’t think it did.

In the end White’s yardage vs Buffalo wasn’t totally unlike this past Sunday, in that the number of yards were more a function of the number of attempts than any actual passing prowess. White dropped back to pass 45x, and had the Jets’ full arsenal of WRs (such as it was) play that game: Davis, Moore, Crowder, Berrios, & Cole all played (as did the starting TE and the entire starting OL). Our week 18 matchup I think 4 of those WRs were missing, other than Crowder in on like 2 early plays - only Cole played fully - as well as backups at TE, LT, and C. They should’ve just forfeited, lol. 

Mind you I’m only talking (a lot) about that one game from White. The other action he saw last year - even if we still lost badly - also did reveal something more than the stats (in comparison to Flacco - both then and now - and certainly Wilson’s first month), which is that in those other games the offense just moved with a better rhythm when he was out there, and - stats aside - the difference seemed sudden & obvious, like someone turned on a light switch. Flacco may not represent total darkness out there, but despite all those passing yards & low interception rate it’s like someone turned the dimmer down to 10%.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

I don't know what point you think is crystal clear here.  If anything this distribution makes perfect sense to me.  Moore and Wilson are probably their two favorites.  Wilson is still learning so probably is a bit limited.  Davis is the ostensible #1, but not particularly great.  Berrios is limited to mainly slot.  10 snaps for Cager makes sense considering how much they seem to like him and that the other 3 TEs all missed much of camp with injuries.  Or is this just another Mims:  0 complaint?  

point i'm making is that wilson and moore should have equal snaps.  they're not putting their best athletes out there enough, so why would they create a package just for a scrub unproven qb?  they're not even featuring their stud wr they took 10th.

[More Cowbell]

36 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't know that I would do it, but it is not a crazy idea.  You should be able to package something for a QB that runs a 4.4.  IMO, the main reason not to is that the plays were often working but being let down by simple miscues - drops, fumbles, missed pickups, etc.  Taking the opportunity away from the regular offense probably isn't the answer and might just lose the opportunity for that one big play.

Also, you are basically  telegraphic what the play is unless they don't  notice the QB change 

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I’ve got no issues with them replacing Flacco with White, other than the issue of having bothered to sign Flacco in the first place lol.

Loved your counter & counter-counter points above with one exception that’s been repeated previously by others.

The Bills game yardage never seemed convincing to me. If someone is just so wild he keeps throwing picks, it’s not a silver lining that there was more yardage along the way. The reason everyone doesn’t do that is they’re more controlled & don’t just wing it without regard for how many defenders are right there. Moreover, he threw “only” 4 INTs but that’s because 3 more were dropped.

That’s not a credit to a job well done — that’s just lucky, which is something one doesn’t use when assessing what’s a future likelihood (luck, rather than, “How often did he throw the ball right at a defender,” in the same way a CS doesn’t blame a QB for a pick that happened only because the target slipped & fell with the ball in the air, or because a pass bounced up/off a target’s hands, chest, or facemask right into the arms of a defender who didn’t drop it. 

I’ll grant him that the game was put away early enough, though, and Buffalo’s lead might’ve been cut to 11 - and not likely, but possibly just 7 - at the half if Davis hadn’t fumbled. With Buffalo scoring on the opening drive, and White first touching the ball in the 2nd half already down 21, it’s not a clean slate & he did throw 3 of his 4 picks after that point.

Also not all of Buffalo’s lack of passing yards against was due to utter domination. Their rush D was pretty schizo, often giving up gobs of yards on the ground (less need to pass 40+ times), and they faced a lot of lesser passing offenses (Pit, Car, Jets x2, Mia x2, Jax, WFT, Hou, NO with Siemian, and NE x3 if you include the playoffs).

• Two badly weakened has-beens, 7 rookie QB games, 2 Miami & 1 WFT game managers, and NO’s 3rd stringer.
• Plus Wentz had no need to complete a pass with over 5 yards of air and Indy still blew out Buffalo, the way Taylor steamrolled them.
• A high scoring game vs Ten saw Tannehill attempt <30 passes as Henry averaged 7 ypc.
• Ryan was also held in check, but he also barely threw it in comparison to White.
• That’s what, 15 of their 18 games? Usually a full season weeds the stats for out up to a handful of outlier games, but in this case with Buffalo last year I don’t think it did.

In the end White’s yardage vs Buffalo wasn’t totally unlike this past Sunday, in that the number of yards were more a function of the number of attempts than any actual passing prowess. White dropped back to pass 45x, and had the Jets’ full arsenal of WRs (such as it was) play that game: Davis, Moore, Crowder, Berrios, & Cole all played (as did the starting TE and the entire starting OL). Our week 18 matchup I think 4 of those WRs were missing, other than Crowder in on like 2 early plays - only Cole played fully - as well as backups at TE, LT, and C. They should’ve just forfeited, lol. 

Mind you I’m only talking (a lot) about that one game from White. The other action he saw last year - even if we still lost badly - also did reveal something more than the stats (in comparison to Flacco - both then and now - and certainly Wilson’s first month), which is that in those other games the offense just moved with a better rhythm when he was out there, and - stats aside - the difference seemed sudden & obvious, like someone turned on a light switch. Flacco may not represent total darkness out there, but despite all those passing yards & low interception rate it’s like someone turned the dimmer down to 10%.

I will accept your counter-counter-counter point.  There is validity there, but there is also the fact that plenty of those scrubby QBs tried and didn't get that kind of yardage.  My point is basically that White's horrible game, while horrible did not indicate a guy that simply could not throw.  More importantly, they and he didn't curl up in a ball to protect him.  This wasn't a softball job of handing off and accepting our beating.   He went down in flames, but kept firing.

Reading your recaps, I wonder if they think that with Breece Hall they will be able to use the BB (is a scumbag) method of throwing for 19 yards and winning.  Hall seems to fit the power mold of Henry and Taylor much better than Carter.  Carter is a nice back, but he is smaller and was under 3 ypc in both games against the Bills. 

[#27TheDominator]

6 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Also, you are basically  telegraphic what the play is unless they don't  notice the QB change 

Telegraphing that it is an RPO with a guy that will run like his life depends and it and I barely care if he survives the play?  Fine by me.  If the D sells out for one thing, I will run the same formation and do the opposite.

*not that I think it is a mandatory idea or something that will work, but it is not a crazy shot to think it is worth taking.  Maybe a contested top of the key 3 pointer off the dribble, but not a half-court shot.

[More Cowbell]

38 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Telegraphing that it is an RPO with a guy that will run like his life depends and it and I barely care if he survives the play?  Fine by me.  If the D sells out for one thing, I will run the same formation and do the opposite.

*not that I think it is a mandatory idea or something that will work, but it is not a crazy shot to think it is worth taking.  Maybe a contested top of the key 3 pointer off the dribble, but not a half-court shot.

I think if the D knows what you intend to do, the odds of it working went way down

[#27TheDominator]

5 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

I think if the D knows what you intend to do, the odds of it working went way down

1. It is a limited package.

2. If it is so obvious what I am going to do that the D is going plan for that, my play will take that into account.  It is a chess match and I think I have the advantage.  One that will dry up if I try to leave a guy like that out there for long. 

3. It is a long shot we are discussing because the odds of our offense succeeding seem low.  The fact that it succeeding has low odds doesn't matter.  The question is which odds are worse.

4.  It isn't my idea and I don't love it, but I am convinced I can have some limited success with it.

[More Cowbell]

6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

1. It is a limited package.

2. If it is so obvious what I am going to do that the D is going plan for that, my play will take that into account.  It is a chess match and I think I have the advantage.  One that will dry up if I try to leave a guy like that out there for long. 

3. It is a long shot we are discussing because the odds of our offense succeeding seem low.  The fact that it succeeding has low odds doesn't matter.  The question is which odds are worse.

4.  It isn't my idea and I don't love it, but I am convinced I can have some limited success with it.

Fan reaction to Streveler going in for a RPO.

It worked and picked up a first down.

Streveler should be the starter.

It failed and Streveler is sacked and fumbles the ball away.

The Jets suck, Streveler sucks, and LeFlure is a horrible OC. .

I think the latter is the more likely outcome if the D knows what to expect. 

[tommyduhamelshouse]

21 hours ago, Zachtomims47 said:

https://cms.megaphone.fm/channel/ESP4319880044?selected=ESP1345425566
 

Listen here jabroni’s. Even this fool is saying stop over reacting. 

-Says stick with Flacco, would be a panic move to switch after 1 game. 
-But suspects Flacco will have much shorter leash and could be pulled at halftime if offense isn’t moving. 
-1st down sack where it was 8 blocking against 5. That’s on players to make a block. 
- Conklin and Breece fumbles complete backbreakers that changed the game. 
-There’s no morale victory attitude. Saleh was asked what positives did you take from game and he answered. 
-Him and Enunwa see receipts quote as backing up the players and not a negative thing. 

Missing a few other good points but you get the idea. 

The panic really stems from Bob Saleh's newfound balls and demeanor.  The way he is playing this whole thing is just making me nervous.

[T0mShane]

Isn’t the takeaway from this Cimini pod that Zach Wilson isn’t close to returning and it could be “a few extra weeks”? (10 minute mark)

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I will accept your counter-counter-counter point.  There is validity there, but there is also the fact that plenty of those scrubby QBs tried and didn't get that kind of yardage.  My point is basically that White's horrible game, while horrible did not indicate a guy that simply could not throw.  More importantly, they and he didn't curl up in a ball to protect him.  This wasn't a softball job of handing off and accepting our beating.   He went down in flames, but kept firing.

Reading your recaps, I wonder if they think that with Breece Hall they will be able to use the BB (is a scumbag) method of throwing for 19 yards and winning.  Hall seems to fit the power mold of Henry and Taylor much better than Carter.  Carter is a nice back, but he is smaller and was under 3 ypc in both games against the Bills. 

Could be, though I don't tend to think that ypc in those games is necessarily a reflection upon Carter, who was like Capt. Breakstackles last year, any more than it's just a function of a limited # of carries. If the line opened up one hole he darted through for 25 yards his ypc would like double. Anyway, that small of a sample size I think I'd look at the runs themselves rather than stats to extrapolate more than 10-fold. Especially in that last game there there was almost no threat of anything from our passing offense of backup players.

Either way, for all the improved rhythm with the offense that I'll happily credit to White, I don't know that the dumpoff queen is what keeps any extra safeties or LBs back & out of the box. It does more than a QB eating it or running backwards before throwing it oob on purpose, or throwing checkdowns into the turf, I'll grant you, but there weren't many QBs who had nearly 50 dropbacks in individual games vs Buffalo last year. Maybe they risked more with White b/c they didn't think there was much risk to the franchise; who knows, I can't get into these guys' heads.

[#27TheDominator]

21 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Could be, though I don't tend to think that ypc in those games is necessarily a reflection upon Carter, who was like Capt. Breakstackles last year, any more than it's just a function of a limited # of carries. If the line opened up one hole he darted through for 25 yards his ypc would like double. Anyway, that small of a sample size I think I'd look at the runs themselves rather than stats to extrapolate more than 10-fold. Especially in that last game there there was almost no threat of anything from our passing offense of backup players.

Either way, for all the improved rhythm with the offense that I'll happily credit to White, I don't know that the dumpoff queen is what keeps any extra safeties or LBs back & out of the box. It does more than a QB eating it or running backwards before throwing it oob on purpose, or throwing checkdowns into the turf, I'll grant you, but there weren't many QBs who had nearly 50 dropbacks in individual games vs Buffalo last year. Maybe they risked more with White b/c they didn't think there was much risk to the franchise; who knows, I can't get into these guys' heads.

Carter had 25 carries against Buffalo last year.  16 in the Mike White game and only 9 in the we aren't passing because we have no receivers excuse contest week 18.  He had 58 yards total.  I think it is a fairly reasonable sample size.

[Sperm Edwards]

24 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Carter had 25 carries against Buffalo last year.  16 in the Mike White game and only 9 in the we aren't passing because we have no receivers excuse contest week 18.  He had 58 yards total.  I think it is a fairly reasonable sample size.

I thought it was 11 in the first matchup, but I was looking at the NE game. 

Still, some of his biggest carries on the year came after a double-digit # of carries without (e.g. 38 yards on his 14th carry vs Jacksonville); 14 on his 10th carry vs Cin; maybe others.

Point being a one double-digit carry would've had a major impact on one's ypc when you're talking that few. And anyway I don't recall his problem being slow to hit the hole or getting tackled by 3 fingers grazing his quad. He doesn't have bruiser size, no doubt, but Hall's maybe 220 not 250 & I don't know if that's pushing today's sized DTs back any better, let alone for an extra yard or more each carry.

I don't think it's all on the QB, or all on the OL, but also don't think one game of frequent dumpoffs and one with barely even that is a measuring stick to extrapolate. Not any more than 5.9 ypc in the first NE game necessarily means that rate would've continued with another 5-10 carries. Nor would've he had that rate if his # of carries ended at 9, seeing how he gained 25 on his final 2 carries.

He was among the league leaders in yards after contact (per attempt), so unless his problem was dancing around too much behind the LOS, giving the D another second or more to converge onto him, or unless Hall will be like a yard better than that - tops in the NFL - I don't think getting stuffed on contact was the chief problem in the ground game.