Let’s talk about Zach Wilson

[Jetsplayer21]

15 minutes ago, slats said:

Honestly, that’s all well and good, but who are you signing? Carson Wentz? Matt Ryan? They can probably wait and see if such an emergency actually takes place first, and those guys will probably still be available. 

Teddy Bridgewater would have been nice. But maybe too much of an established backup for rodgers. I would say there has to be a dozen of qbs available that are clearly ahead Chris Streveler, who considerably outplayed Zach by a landslide when he was finally brought in to replace Zach during jax game. 

[slats]

2 minutes ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

Teddy Bridgewater would have been nice. But maybe too much of an established backup for rodgers. I would say there has to be a dozen of qbs available that are clearly ahead Chris Streveler, who considerably outplayed Zach by a landslide when he was finally brought in to replace Zach during jax game. 

Yeah well, Teddy’s gone so now what? (not that they had any interest in Teddy, either)

Any signing would be a waste of roster space and cap room in the name of insurance. I’d rather have the 4th RB or TE, 6th WR, or 9th OL than a third QB who might be marginally better than their current $9.5M backup. I believe that they agree. Most teams with established starters do. Joe Burrow is out right now but Cincinnati isn’t panicked, they’re riding behind Trevor Siemian. Patrick Mahomes’ backup is Blaine Gabbert. The Bills are rolling with Kyle Allen. The Chargers have Easton Stick, who once threw a pass in 2020. Everyone kinda understanding that if their star QB goes down, so does their season, so the backup position just isn’t worth investing in. The teams that might carry three QBs are the ones who don’t know who their starter is, or don’t love him. 

[Larz]

He had a bad day today.  Hope he turns it around but he seemed to be affected by live bullets ☹️

 

@Jetsfan80

 

insert dunking gif here 😂

[Rangers9]

Teddy was with Miami was injured a lot and didn't play that well. I think Zach can play better and if called on at least compares with most other NFL backups. He is capable of winning games even if they have to give him a simplified game plan. He's not going to be able to run a full Rodgers kind of an offense. He's not at that level but who is. I doubt he has a future here but the Jets are paying him about 10 mil and expect to get something in return. 

[Jetsplayer21]

3 minutes ago, slats said:

Yeah well, Teddy’s gone so now what? (not that they had any interest in Teddy, either)

Any signing would be a waste of roster space and cap room in the name of insurance. I’d rather have the 4th RB or TE, 6th WR, or 9th OL than a third QB who might be marginally better than their current $9.5M backup. I believe that they agree. Most teams with established starters do. Joe Burrow is out right now but Cincinnati isn’t panicked, they’re riding behind Trevor Siemian. Patrick Mahomes’ backup is Blaine Gabbert. The Bills are rolling with Kyle Allen. The Chargers have Easton Stick, who once threw a pass in 2020. Everyone kinda understanding that if their star QB goes down, so does their season, so the backup position just isn’t worth investing in. The teams that might carry three QBs are the ones who don’t know who their starter is, or don’t love him. 

Except that wasn’t the case with jets last yr. Jets were still winning with not starting qb play most of 22. They couldn’t win when they had by far the worst qb in NFL. And no one can. The defense is that good a decent ( typical backup ) would have got team in playoffs. Had Mike White not got hurt I think we were headed that direction. And qbs can go down without season ending injuries. We have a small window with Aaron. If he were to miss games early, the backup qb by far becomes the most Important player on team to keep team in playoff contention until Aaron is back.

[Jimmy 2 Times]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

i like that Zach Wilson eats Uncrustables

it plays into his whole MILF fetish

because who cuts the crust off your PB&J but a mom 

preferably blond

paging Dr Freud Dr Sigmund Freud 

Peanut butter sandwich is great energy food.  A lot of PGA players eat one mid round.  

[slats]

37 minutes ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

Except that wasn’t the case with jets last yr. Jets were still winning with not starting qb play most of 22. They couldn’t win when they had by far the worst qb in NFL. And no one can. The defense is that good a decent ( typical backup ) would have got team in playoffs. Had Mike White not got hurt I think we were headed that direction. And qbs can go down without season ending injuries. We have a small window with Aaron. If he were to miss games early, the backup qb by far becomes the most Important player on team to keep team in playoff contention until Aaron is back.

So what QB are you signing today? Give me a name, you keep dodging that one. 
 
My take is that if Rodgers were to go down for an extended period, the season is basically done. It’s Rodgers that has the Jets in the championship discussion, and there’s no backup QB that could possibly hope to pick up that much slack. Especially the pile of has-beens and wannabes available at this time of year. The fact that they aren’t even interested in bringing in a camp arm with The Strev on IR should tell you something about how they feel about it. 
 
It’ll be Rodgers, Zach, and probably Boyle on the practice squad. The team demonstrated that they could win with Zach last year, as unattractive as it may’ve been. 

[Jetsplayer21]

2 hours ago, slats said:

So what QB are you signing today? Give me a name, you keep dodging that one. 
 
My take is that if Rodgers were to go down for an extended period, the season is basically done. It’s Rodgers that has the Jets in the championship discussion, and there’s no backup QB that could possibly hope to pick up that much slack. Especially the pile of has-beens and wannabes available at this time of year. The fact that they aren’t even interested in bringing in a camp arm with The Strev on IR should tell you something about how they feel about it. 
 
It’ll be Rodgers, Zach, and probably Boyle on the practice squad. The team demonstrated that they could win with Zach last year, as unattractive as it may’ve been. 

I agree the Pickens are slim, especially now. It’s the fact there was no effort what so effort to even consider bumping zach to 3 and “ trying “ to find a Legitimate number 2. Some teams have # 3 qbs that are better bet that Zach. I think the front office approach is, “ in a worst case scenario Aaron goes down, we get to give Zach some real time to see if he has improved to his disaster 2nd half performances. Especially since he hasn’t built up any real stability in 2 years. Teams will give up backups for draft picks, and that might be a route have to go if Aaron misses extended period of time, if before trade deadline. If pats are out of contention by end of oct, think BB too bitter to trade zappe to jets for a 4th ? Ha

[ronaldmcdougall]

everybody hates him, including me.

[WickedAwesome]

Let Zach chill with Rodgers for one season and I’d take him over Mac Jones.

[Darnold Schwarzenegger]

9 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

Teddy was with Miami was injured a lot and didn't play that well. I think Zach can play better and if called on at least compares with most other NFL backups. He is capable of winning games even if they have to give him a simplified game plan. He's not going to be able to run a full Rodgers kind of an offense. He's not at that level but who is. I doubt he has a future here but the Jets are paying him about 10 mil and expect to get something in return. 

Some of these posts are hilarious. Teddy b has never once had a season that was statistically worse than ZWs best season

If Aaron rodgers misses any time we are ****ed.

[jgb]

11 hours ago, slats said:

So what QB are you signing today? Give me a name, you keep dodging that one. 
 
My take is that if Rodgers were to go down for an extended period, the season is basically done. It’s Rodgers that has the Jets in the championship discussion, and there’s no backup QB that could possibly hope to pick up that much slack. Especially the pile of has-beens and wannabes available at this time of year. The fact that they aren’t even interested in bringing in a camp arm with The Strev on IR should tell you something about how they feel about it. 
 
It’ll be Rodgers, Zach, and probably Boyle on the practice squad. The team demonstrated that they could win with Zach last year, as unattractive as it may’ve been. 

JD also refused to appropriately backup Zach, which was a bad idea Zach’s rookie year but an unpardonable one last season. Many in the building including Woody, Saleh and the departed LaFleur have admitted they should’ve had a legitimate veteran backup.

This is about JD not giving up on Zach rather than doing what is best for the football team. Pity. Hope the Jets don’t miss the playoffs because of it.

[slats]

3 hours ago, jgb said:

JD also refused to appropriately backup Zach, which was a bad idea Zach’s rookie year but an unpardonable one last season. Many in the building including Woody, Saleh and the departed LaFleur have admitted they should’ve had a legitimate veteran backup.

This is about JD not giving up on Zach rather than doing what is best for the football team. Pity. Hope the Jets don’t miss the playoffs because of it.

I agree with the first part. Not giving up on Zach, I suspect, has everything to do with his trade value being at rock bottom and the Jets still owing him $20.7M, fully guaranteed. I think he’s trying to do what’s best for the team by maximizing that extremely overpriced asset. I’d love to trade him next offseason, hopefully his market improves some. 
 
The miss the playoffs angle is a little melodramatic, imho. If Rodgers were to have a season ending season, no backup is replacing what he brings to this team. Maybe Teddy could win an extra game or two, but he’s not leading the team thru the AFC playoffs. If Rodgers were to miss a start or two, I have every reason to believe that the team would rally around Zach short term. For all the hundreds -if not thousands- of posts declaring him to be the worst QB ever, the team still managed to start 5-2 with him last year. The team is talented. Teams like KC or Philly will be tough no matter who’s at QB, but they should be able to get past most of their opponents this year even with Zach. They beat Josh Allen and the Bills with him last year. 
 
The good news, of course, is that Rodgers doesn’t miss many starts and hasn’t missed any in the last five years. That’s what they bought, that’s what they’re looking for. 

[jgb]

1 hour ago, slats said:

I agree with the first part. Not giving up on Zach, I suspect, has everything to do with his trade value being at rock bottom and the Jets still owing him $20.7M, fully guaranteed. I think he’s trying to do what’s best for the team by maximizing that extremely overpriced asset. I’d love to trade him next offseason, hopefully his market improves some. 
 

No one is taking on his contract absent a Brock Osweiler type deal where the Jets return significant draft capital back to the acquiring team. We are stuck with him and should attempt to salvage him, absolutely no dispute from me on that.

1 hour ago, slats said:

The miss the playoffs angle is a little melodramatic, imho. If Rodgers were to have a season ending season, no backup is replacing what he brings to this team.

There are many possibilities — more likely ones in fact — beyond a season-ending injury. Teddy Bridgewater is unlikely to save us in that case but if Rodgers misses 2 games? I sure wish we had a steady hand vet for that possibility.

1 hour ago, slats said:

Maybe Teddy could win an extra game or two, but he’s not leading the team thru the AFC playoffs.

If those are the only 2 games Rodgers misses they absolutely could determine if the Jets make the playoffs in a meat grinder AFCE.

1 hour ago, slats said:

If Rodgers were to miss a start or two, I have every reason to believe that the team would rally around Zach short term. 

They can rally all they want but they can’t make him play well.

1 hour ago, slats said:

For all the hundreds -if not thousands- of posts declaring him to be the worst QB ever, the team still managed to start 5-2 with him last year.

This one is probably not worth continued debate. We just simply disagree whether those wins should — or in what quantity — be attributed to Zach.

1 hour ago, slats said:

The team is talented.

Which is why it would be a shame to miss the playoffs because we didn’t want to bring in a 3 million dollar vet to spot start of Rodgers misses a game or two or even part of a game.

1 hour ago, slats said:

Teams like KC or Philly will be tough no matter who’s at QB, but they should be able to get past most of their opponents this year even with Zach. They beat Josh Allen and the Bills with him last year. 
 

Again, good teams can win with bad QBs, the Jets did last year, but for a meager investment we can greatly increase those odds. I view it as a very logical insurance policy. Although with Bridgewater now off the board, the quality of available options just dropped precipitously, making this all a fait accompli at this point. It’s probably not worth at this point to bring someone else in. Matt Ryan or Nick Foles will probably be waiting by the phone if Rodgers goes down.

1 hour ago, slats said:

The good news, of course, is that Rodgers doesn’t miss many starts and hasn’t missed any in the last five years. That’s what they bought, that’s what they’re looking for. 

Agree.

[slats]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

This one is probably not worth continued debate. We just simply disagree that those wins should — or what what quantity — be attributed to Zach.

I don’t attribute it to Zach. I attribute it to the talented team around him. They demonstrated that they can, in fact, win football games with the worst QB impersonator in the history of the universe last season. I’m really not concerned about what would be a very unusual missed couple of games from Rodgers. It’s not worth the cap or roster space, imho, which is an opinion the Jets and most of the rest of the league seems to share. 

[jgb]

7 minutes ago, slats said:

I don’t attribute it to Zach. I attribute it to the talented team around him. They demonstrated that they can, in fact, win football games with the worst QB impersonator in the history of the universe last season. I’m really not concerned about what would be a very unusual missed couple of games from Rodgers. It’s not worth the cap or roster space, imho, which is an opinion the Jets and most of the rest of the league seems to share. 

And as soon as the pressure was on and the Jets entered the playoff picture and had some injuries, they stopped winning and Zach played his worst stretch of football. This entire upcoming season the Jets will be in the playoff picture from gun to tape.

I also don’t care what the rest of the league believes. The majority has been wrong many times in human history as I argue the Jets are here. As the QB position continues to widen the gap as the most important position in sports, so does the backup. Also consider that there is also a shortage of competent backups as there is for competent starters. If the supply was greater, more teams would do something about it. The best backups are usually fringe starters who take 1 year “prove it deals” in hopes of getting a starter role in the future. These guys all get employed by somebody… but there aren’t enough to go around.

[slats]

6 minutes ago, jgb said:

As the QB position continues to widen the gap as the most important position in sports, so does the backup.

I imagine the league disagrees with you because of some analytical data informing them in such a way considering that they’re pretty much in lockstep. What you’re saying here is the opposite of how the league treats the position. Instead, it’s all about QB1, and then the support players around that QB - not his backup. 

[Jetsplayer21]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

And as soon as the pressure was on and the Jets entered the playoff picture and had some injuries, they stopped winning and Zach played his worst stretch of football. This entire upcoming season the Jets will be in the playoff picture from gun to tape.

I also don’t care what the rest of the league believes. The majority has been wrong many times in human history as I argue the Jets are here. As the QB position continues to widen the gap as the most important position in sports, so does the backup. 

Agree. Nobody likes to buy insurance until they desperately need it. The 9ers have 3 qbs that are more plausible backup than zach. Ironically they likely missed going to the Super Bowl because they had to go to their 4th qb. Their 3rd stringer got them to afc championship game.
    The problem is JD and Saleh were slow to admit how bad Zach was mid season and rest. Not that he was ever good. Everyone is on the same page that with rodgers jets have win now, small window with him. They still want to look for future with Zach too. They made no effort to find a suitable backup. Wishful thinking to believe Zach went from being worst qb in nfl history, back to the mediocre at best he was before. 

[jgb]

7 minutes ago, slats said:

I imagine the league disagrees with you because of some analytical data informing them in such a way considering that they’re pretty much in lockstep. What you’re saying here is the opposite of how the league treats the position. Instead, it’s all about QB1, and then the support players around that QB - not his backup. 

No, every team doesn’t have a competent backup because there are not enough to go around. There’s also a self-selection bias here. Highly-regarded backups are more likely to take an offer from a team with an embattled starter to maximize their chance to show their stuff. That’s actually your best argument — that Minshew and Bridgewater wouldn’t come to the Jets anyway because they’d be very unlikely to play. Which is why I wanted the Jets to get one of those guys before the draft/trading for Rodgers.
 

[slats]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

No, every team doesn’t have a competent backup because there are not enough to go around. So the league doesn’t agree with you at all.

Carson Wentz and Matt Ryan are still looking for work, I don’t see any contenders giving them a call. 

[jgb]

8 minutes ago, slats said:

Carson Wentz and Matt Ryan are still looking for work, I don’t see any contenders giving them a call. 

You (a) don’t know that (b) don’t know if they’d be interested and (c) don’t know what these contenders think about their backups. We just saw the Eagles make Mariota the 2nd highest-paid backup QB in the league after (ugh) Zach. Eagles have traditionally focused on the QB2 spot regardless of who their starter is. It won them a superbowl, in fact.

[JohnnyLV]

2 hours ago, slats said:

I agree with the first part. Not giving up on Zach, I suspect, has everything to do with his trade value being at rock bottom and the Jets still owing him $20.7M, fully guaranteed. I think he’s trying to do what’s best for the team by maximizing that extremely overpriced asset. I’d love to trade him next offseason, hopefully his market improves some. 
 
The miss the playoffs angle is a little melodramatic, imho. If Rodgers were to have a season ending season, no backup is replacing what he brings to this team. Maybe Teddy could win an extra game or two, but he’s not leading the team thru the AFC playoffs. If Rodgers were to miss a start or two, I have every reason to believe that the team would rally around Zach short term. For all the hundreds -if not thousands- of posts declaring him to be the worst QB ever, the team still managed to start 5-2 with him last year. The team is talented. Teams like KC or Philly will be tough no matter who’s at QB, but they should be able to get past most of their opponents this year even with Zach. They beat Josh Allen and the Bills with him last year. 
 
The good news, of course, is that Rodgers doesn’t miss many starts and hasn’t missed any in the last five years. That’s what they bought, that’s what they’re looking for. 

Change two  plays last year and Jets are in the playoffs and Zach is still our QB this season. You can make an argument he is actually at worst a mid-tier #2.

[Biggs]

18 minutes ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

Agree. Nobody likes to buy insurance until they desperately need it. The 9ers have 3 qbs that are more plausible backup than zach. Ironically they likely missed going to the Super Bowl because they had to go to their 4th qb. Their 3rd stringer got them to afc championship game.
    The problem is JD and Saleh were slow to admit how bad Zach was mid season and rest. Not that he was ever good. Everyone is on the same page that with rodgers jets have win now, small window with him. They still want to look for future with Zach too. They made no effort to find a suitable backup. Wishful thinking to believe Zach went from being worst qb in nfl history, back to the mediocre at best he was before. 

The 49ers starting QB counts 889,000 against the cap this year.   There backup, Sam Darnold had a 4.5 million dollar contract of which 3.5 million is guaranteed.

Lance is essentially Zach Wilson although he's slightly cheaper.  He's a sunk cost at QB who isn't a proven starter or backup.  Unlike Zach he probably could be converted to Safety and be successful in the NFL.

The cap hit for all 3 of the 49ers QB's is right around 15 million this year.  

The 49ers have insurance because they have a rookie starter who is one of the lowest paid players in the NFL on a rookie deal.  If he continues to be an elite top 10 QB like he was last year before he was hurt they will not have a high quality expensive backup.  

What the 49ers did do was last year when they were in their SB window they gave Jimmy G a 1 year deal to back up Lance in his first year as a starter.   The Jets weren't a SB contender last year.  They weren't even a contender for a playoff spot when the season started.  The Jets emerged and collapsed.  The 49ers actually got improved QB play out of one of the cheapest QB's in the league. 

Zach is simply to expensive to cut or bury behind a traditional No. 2.  

 

 

[slats]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

You (a) don’t know that (b) don’t know if they’d be interested and (c) don’t know what these contenders think about their backups. We just saw the Eagles make Mariota the 2nd highest-backup QB in the league after (ugh) Zach.

Jalen Hurts puts himself in increased danger as a rushing QB and has missed starts the last two years, so they paid the QB who quit on the Falcons last year $5M. It’s a little different situation than that of the Jets, especially considering that they don’t have a $9.5M third stringer. 

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, slats said:

Jalen Hurts puts himself in increased danger as a rushing QB and has missed starts the last two years, so they paid the QB who quit on the Falcons last year $5M. It’s a little different situation than that of the Jets, especially considering that they don’t have a $9.5M third stringer. 

And they also invested behind Wentz. Not a runner. Eagles are the best-run team in football. Having insurance for the most important position is a big reason for that.

[jgb]

16 minutes ago, JohnnyLV said:

Change two  plays last year and Jets are in the playoffs and Zach is still our QB this season. You can make an argument he is actually at worst a mid-tier #2.

And change two good plays and they lose 2 additional games. You cannot eliminate data points from a data set at will. And while it’s bad science, you should at least remove the two most positive impact plays if you want to remove the two most negative.

[JohnnyLV]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

And change two good plays and they lose 2 additional games. You cannot eliminate data points from a data set at will. And while it’s bad science, you should at least remove the two most positive impact plays if you want to remove the two most negative.

Except that the two plays were out of Zach's control.

If JFM does not get the roughing call, we beat NE and Zach does not implode in the second half.

Take away the returned punt to win the 3-3 game and very good chance we also win that game.

 

[Biggs]

5 minutes ago, JohnnyLV said:

Except that the two plays were out of Zach's control.

If JFM does not get the roughing call, we beat NE and Zach does not implode in the second half.

Take away the returned punt to win the 3-3 game and very good chance we also win that game.

 

The O put 3 points on the board in the Pats game.  Zach threw for 77 yards and had a QBR of 50.8.   We had 6 first downs.  Out of his control?  

[jgb]

10 minutes ago, JohnnyLV said:

Except that the two plays were out of Zach's control.

If JFM does not get the roughing call, we beat NE and Zach does not implode in the second half.

Take away the returned punt to win the 3-3 game and very good chance we also win that game.

 

Come on now. If the offense scores more that play doesn’t have game-breaking impact. And the assuming Zach doesn’t implode, that’s even more egregious than just “removing a play.”

The human tendency to discount factors that don’t support their view (confirmation bias) is the whole reason statistics as a science exists.

[Jetsplayer21]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

And they also invested behind Wentz. Not a runner. Eagles are the best-run team in football. Having insurance for the most important position is a big reason for that.

That’s right. Won championship with a backup ha. Imagine if they didn’t value the backup qb importance, would have thrown away a Lombardi trophy. 

[JohnnyLV]

18 minutes ago, Biggs said:

The O put 3 points on the board in the Pats game.  Zach threw for 77 yards and had a QBR of 50.8.   We had 6 first downs.  Out of his control?  

If we don't give up the punt return and win, Zach is not benched for the next game.  And that game was against the worst pass defense in the NFL. Jones stats looked better but he was just as ineffective that day. Benching Zach and the subsequent weeks just destroyed any confidence he had at all.

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, JohnnyLV said:

If we don't give up the punt return and win, Zach is not benched for the next game.  And that game was against the worst pass defense in the NFL. Jones stats looked better but he was just as ineffective that day. Benching Zach and the subsequent weeks just destroyed any confidence he had at all.

And if Spartacus had a Panzer he would’ve defeated the Roman Legions

[Barry McCockinner]

Just now, jgb said:

And if Spartacus had a Panzer he would’ve defeated the Roman Legions

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

This wild hypothetical also has an inherit self-disproving flaw — if one play can break a QB’s confidence…. he never had any to begin with and the next inevitable bad play would have the same deleterious effect.

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

25 minutes ago, JohnnyLV said:

If we don't give up the punt return and win, Zach is not benched for the next game.  And that game was against the worst pass defense in the NFL. Jones stats looked better but he was just as ineffective that day. Benching Zach and the subsequent weeks just destroyed any confidence he had at all.

This is ridiculous.  He deserved to be benched, whether they won or lost.

He sucked.  He supposedly has "elite" arm strength while Jones has a "noodle arm". 

Jones went 23 of 27 for 286 (9.1 YPA) in the same winds.

If Wilson plays better than he did  -- 9/22 for 77 yards (3.5 YPA), 4 sacks -- and the offense scores more than 3 pts, the team wins.

Wilson couldn't do jack on the final drive.  They punted the ball away.  Rest is history.

• 1st & 10 at NYJ 20

  (1:45 - 4th) (Shotgun) Z.Wilson pass incomplete short right to E.Moore.

• 2nd & 10 at NYJ 20

  (1:40 - 4th) (Shotgun) Z.Wilson pass incomplete short right to D.Mims (Jo.Jones).

• 3rd & 10 at NYJ 20

  (1:34 - 4th) (Shotgun) Z.Wilson sacked at NYJ 15 for -5 yards (M.Wilson). PENALTY on NE-Jo.Jones, Defensive Holding, 5 yards, enforced at NYJ 20 - No Play.

• 1st & 10 at NYJ 25

  (1:25 - 4th) (Shotgun) Mi.Carter up the middle to NYJ 33 for 8 yards (J.Bentley).

• 2nd & 2 at NYJ 33

  (0:57 - 4th) (No Huddle, Shotgun) Mi.Carter left tackle to NYJ 34 for 1 yard (A.Phillips, K.Dugger).
• (0:32 - 4th) Timeout #2 by NYJ at 00:32.

• 3rd & 1 at NYJ 34

  (0:26 - 4th) (Shotgun) Z.Wilson pass short right to Mi.Carter to NYJ 32 for -2 yards (K.Dugger).
• (0:26 - 4th) Timeout #2 by NE at 00:26.

• 4th & 3 at NYJ 32

  (0:05 - 4th) Marcus Jones 84 Yd Punt Return N.Folk extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Cardona, Holder-M.Palardy.