Mac Jones or Trevor Lawrence?

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, JohnnyLV said:

Mac Jones is the creepiest player in the NFL. He is also a terrible QB that has no physical tools and also has no toughness at all. It is clear his teammates hate him. I am not so sure he gets another starting opportunity without a serious injury.

Lawrence is exactly what he was in college, a solid but wildly overrated QB that is far from generational. He is sort of the Mendoza line of "franchise QBs"

I think Chicago keep Fields AND drafts a QB and sits him for a year. Fields has improved but I am not sure he will continue to. I think he is what he is at this point.

Zach was the #2 pick playing under a completely dysfunctional offensive coaching staff all 3 years. Unlike Jones he has serious physical tools and is not creepy (at least to most people) He has definite trade value though I think his stating opportunity will come from injury not from being in a competition for starter. He is still super young and with good coaching he may blossom even more than Geno has

The Jets need to pick at least 1 and probably 2 QBs and not pass on one because of Rodgers if one is BPA on your board.

20 years from now, Zach Wilson coaching High School ball in Utah, after a miserable professional career, JohnnyLV will still believe, if Zach can just find the right environment!  He's a superstar in the making!!!!!!!! 

He's your Dwayne Robertson @bitonti

 

[JohnnyLV]

4 minutes ago, JustInFudge said:

20 years from now, Zach Wilson coaching High School ball in Utah, after a miserable professional career, JohnnyLV will still believe, if Zach can just find the right environment!  He's a superstar in the making!!!!!!!! 

He's your Dwayne Robertson @bitonti

 

Maybe. I still believe he is mostly a victim of terrible coaching but maybe more specifically coaching from an offensive staff that has no idea how to handle a young QB. Maybe he will always suck. QBs do sometimes seem to get ruined permanently and that may be the case with Zach. Regardless it will noy be on this team

[JustInFudge]

53 minutes ago, playtowinthegame said:

Better runner, that's for sure. 

Duh.  He's best running Qb of all time.  He's in the record books.  What records did Mac Jones and Generational Lawrence break?  Oh, none you say?  Wow.  Zach broke a record, he's the first QB in the SB era to finish the season in back to back years w/ the lowest passer rating in the league, was on his way to 3 in a row before he was "injured".

Back to those passing things, of those 4 QB's only 1 of them has finished in the top 10 in passing TD % (you know, scoring TD's, it's a fun thing other teams do)....oh and only 2 of them have thrown 4 TD's in a game....but only 1 has done it twice...yep, you guessed it, the better runner does the passing thing better too.

[JustInFudge]

3 minutes ago, JohnnyLV said:

Maybe. I still believe he is mostly a victim of terrible coaching but maybe more specifically coaching from an offensive staff that has no idea how to handle a young QB. Maybe he will always suck. QBs do sometimes seem to get ruined permanently and that may be the case with Zach. Regardless it will noy be on this team

I appreciate your dedication and commitment to Zach.  I dont quite understand, I mean its obvious to me you made a determination on him predraft "best QB prospect you've ever seen" so there is probably a little save face going on here and wont give up, which I respect but just seems like the type of dude  who's just going to continue to disappoint.  

That said, I dont disagree, the handling of Zach was criminal.  I obviously hated him has a prospect but I agree that strapping him w/ an all rookie coaching staff, no veteran presence at QB in the building and starting him right away was damaging but I also think that beyond talent, professional athletes have an it factor, a will factor, mindset if you will, that makes them successful, especially a QB.   Zach lacks that key characteristic.  He's not an alpha male.  He's not a leader.  He's not someone his teammates believe in and I dont think he can change that part of his personality which is ultimately while he's a failure and more than likely, always will be.

[Saul Goodman]

Responding to previous posts, Marvin Harrison Jr is an absolute can’t miss. He would’ve changed our franchise trajectory. 

If we had ended up with the 3rd overall pick, which looked very possible prior to the win against Washington, and MHJ was already taken, we would’ve gotten a huge haul of picks from a team that wanted one of the blue chip QB’s, Maye or Caleb. 

Sucks that we went through a brutal season and all we have to show for it is the 10th overall. 

[Lupz27]

3 hours ago, mrcoops said:

No-one tanked to get Mahomes, though. And he's proof that draft experts know nothing, and that you can find great players outside the top 5 picks if you scout well.

If scouts could actually scout well Mahomes goes #1 and teams would have tanked.

They just are lazy old school guys who have a no show job 95% of the year.

[Lupz27]

3 hours ago, mrcoops said:

No-one tanked to get Mahomes, though. And he's proof that draft experts know nothing, and that you can find great players outside the top 5 picks if you scout well.

I’ll give you another one.

Lamar Jackson should have been considered generational but the old school guys think being a runner is a bad thing morons.

 

Hell I’ll give you one more.  And I think the scouts finally realized they are morons when it comes to evaluating QB’s.

Jayden Daniels.

If he isn’t #1 overall guys still are not paying attention.

[rex-n-effect]

Jones had a strong year surrounded by a decent team and an OC who squeezed the best out of him. After that, Jones slid into what he was always going to be. Another failed Alabama QB. NE did him no favors at all after McDaniels left. He's probably good backup/bad starter territory where he'll float around in the league for a while until teams get tired of his personality. 

Lawrence has the opposite story. Set up to fail that first season and had a rough first year. He's been better since. He's middle of the road and maybe improves some over his career. I'm not sure if he's ever a top 10 QB but he's definitely not a generational talent. He is a QB the team can build around and be a competitor, especially in that division. (FWIW, if the Jets had taken him and stuck him in the same position, I don't think he would be middle of the pack right now.)

 

[Rangers9]

Mac Jones is better than Zach but not on same level as Lawrence. You'd expect there to be a market for Mac. If Darnold doesn't re-sign with SF I could see them having interest in Mac and maybe even Denver. But depends on how CS's have graded him including his bad play in 2023. 

[Darnold Schwarzenegger]

6 minutes ago, JustInFudge said:

 

That said, I dont disagree, the handling of Zach was criminal.  I obviously hated him has a prospect but I agree that strapping him w/ an all rookie coaching staff, no veteran presence at QB in the building and starting him right away was damaging but I also think that beyond talent, professional athletes have an it factor, a will factor, mindset if you will, that makes them successful, especially a QB.   Zach lacks that key characteristic.  He's not an alpha male.  He's not a leader.  He's not someone his teammates believe in and I dont think he can change that part of his personality which is ultimately while he's a failure and more than likely, always will be.

I don’t think the handling of ZW was criminal. The handling of darnold was downright criminal. Worse coaching staff, worse surrounding talent. Darnold Never had a chance to succeed. (Still flashed way more potential than ZW ever did)

As for ZW, Being drafted 2nd overall your kind of expected to start day 1, weather that’s fair or not. But he was such a terrible prospect he needed to sit and learn for probably 2-3 years, and even then I doubt it would change anything. Like you said the kid doesn’t have” IT”

Yes I agree there should have been a real veteran qb behind him.

And a lot of people blamed Lafleur but I don’t think he was a problem at all. In fact I think Lafleur is a lot better of a coach than Hackett is

[GreenFish]

Lawrence has been better. Definitely not as good as he was sold by scouts.

Fields has a chance to be the best QB of this class.

[Greensleeves]

10 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

J Fields.

why - he's worse than both of them in all of those QB categories aside from pass per attempt at 7 yards and rushing. He averages 166 yards passing a game in his 3 year career - abysmal. No way they pay him big bucks to stay in Chicago and build around him when you have a more talented rookie QB that they can build around with a bunch of picks (especially after trading Fields for most likely a 2nd or probably a 3rd). Reset the QB clock and stock up with the rest of your picks.

[slimjasi]

6 hours ago, JustInFudge said:

As predicted, Fields is better than both.

 

That remains to be seen, "JustIn" - Fields currently has a lower completion percentage and QB rating than both Jones and Lawrence. 

[slimjasi]

16 minutes ago, Greensleeves said:

why - he's worse than both of them in all of those QB categories aside from pass per attempt at 7 yards and rushing. He averages 166 yards passing a game in his 3 year career - abysmal. No way they pay him big bucks to stay in Chicago and build around him when you have a more talented rookie QB that they can build around with a bunch of picks (especially after trading Fields for most likely a 2nd or probably a 3rd). Reset the QB clock and stock up with the rest of your picks.

Their team really likes him, but his passing numbers are not great. 

[JustInFudge]

25 minutes ago, Darnold Schwarzenegger said:

I don’t think the handling of ZW was criminal. The handling of darnold was downright criminal. Worse coaching staff, worse surrounding talent. Darnold Never had a chance to succeed. (Still flashed way more potential than ZW ever did)

As for ZW, Being drafted 2nd overall your kind of expected to start day 1, weather that’s fair or not. But he was such a terrible prospect he needed to sit and learn for probably 2-3 years, and even then I doubt it would change anything. Like you said the kid doesn’t have” IT”

Yes I agree there should have been a real veteran qb behind him.

And a lot of people blamed Lafleur but I don’t think he was a problem at all. In fact I think Lafleur is a lot better of a coach than Hackett is

Cant disagree.  Darnold's handling was worse and he showed much more promise.  Lets say both were criminal.  Zach like 10-15 year sentence, Darnold 30-life.  lol  When I knew it was clear the Jets were taking Wilson and not my preferred Qb prospect, I was firmly in the, keep Darnold and trade down camp.  Give him the weapons he never had and load up the roster but Jets gunna Jet.

LaFleur just coached the 8th best scoring offense in the NFL.  After coaching the OROY here, he backed it up by arguably doing it again (if not for Stroud) only this time, his rookie WR broke an all-time record and dude was picked in the 5th round, not 10th overall  His RB was 3rd overall in yards and 5th in TD's, and he only played in 11 games.  6 players scored multiple TD's, 9 players scored TD's overall.  The Jets had 2 players score multiple TD's and 4 who scored 1.  lol  Obviously Lil Mikey was not the problem, we saw it any time a back up played here. 

 

[JustInFudge]

20 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

That remains to be seen, "JustIn" - Fields currently has a lower completion percentage and QB rating than both Jones and Lawrence. 

Meh, we're talking 3 % points vs. Lawrence and 6 vs. Jones.  He's also the only of the three who's comp % has gone up, year over year.  Mac has  gone down every year since his rookie season and Lawrence was down from last year but up from his rookie season.  He also has a high yards per completion than both and as mentioned before and more importantly and for some reason this doesnt register on the importance factor w/ Jets fans but Fields has the highest passing TD% of the three and that's not even getting into the situations and the fact that one player finished the season ascending a player/passer while the other 2 had 1 riding the pine and the other doing an epic choke job.

 

[Grandy]

6 hours ago, The Crusher said:

Pick a QB out of top 10 round 1 and let him sit behind your starter for a  year or couple years.,

 

- Green Bay Packers 

The blueprint is right in front of us

[Grandy]

Lawrence is good and I wish we had him.

[slimjasi]

42 minutes ago, JustInFudge said:

Meh, we're talking 3 % points vs. Lawrence and 6 vs. Jones.  

 

6% is a lot when it comes to completion percentage - that's not a great argument. 

42 minutes ago, JustInFudge said:

He's also the only of the three who's comp % has gone up, year over year.  Mac has  gone down every year since his rookie season and Lawrence was down from last year but up from his rookie season. 

 

Good point. 

42 minutes ago, JustInFudge said:

He also has a high yards per completion than both 

 

Yep - 7.0 vs. 6.8 vs. 6.7 - I would call THAT close. 

42 minutes ago, JustInFudge said:

more importantly and for some reason this doesnt register on the importance factor w/ Jets fans but Fields has the highest passing TD% of the three 

 

Another good point -

However, on the flip side, Fields also has highest INT % of the three. So there are two sides to that coin. 

42 minutes ago, JustInFudge said:

and the fact that one player finished the season ascending a player/passer while the other 2 had 1 riding the pine and the other doing an epic choke job.

 

I think this is your best point. Fields does seem like he's trending in the right direction. (Although, I must admit to being disappointed in how he played in GB)

Fields will definitely have a market if the Bears decide to move on - no idea what they are going to do though. 

[JustInFudge]

5 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

6% is a lot when it comes to completion percentage - that's not a great argument. 

Good point. 

Yep - 7.0 vs. 6.8 vs. 6.7 - I would call THAT close. 

Another good point -

However, on the flip side, Fields also has highest INT % of the three. So there are two sides to that coin. 

I think this is your best point. Fields does seem like he's trending in the right direction. (Although, I must admit to being disappointed in how he played in GB)

Fields will definitely have a market if the Bears decide to move on - no idea what they are going to do though. 

I dont think 6% is a lot when you're talking about a player who literally cant push the ball down field and is atrocious when asked to.   It's like Chad Pennington vs. Brett Favre for a lack of a better example, does the 6% matter?  Nah.  And his INT% is hurt by a really bad rookie season but has gotten much better over the last 18 games and once again, he improved year over year and was better than both this season.

Plus, this is where situations come into play.  NE and the Jags using the short passing game a lot in replace of the run game.  Peterson loves to throw on short yardage/goal line situations (this is currently the biggest frustration of ever Jags fan).  The Bears run the ball more than both teams (2nd most in the NFL) and love to put Fields in 3rd and long situations and often run him in short yardage situations.  Fields doesnt get nearly the amount of layups as other QB's. 

GB game is a perfect example.  I guess because he plays behind the worst pass blocking OL in the NFL, they didnt love the passing game but he was fine, other then the sacks which were not on him, those were insta-sacks.  He was dicing them up and was like 10/11 at one point, then they stopped giving him easy looks and ran the ball like crazy in the second half while they were behind.  And that's speaks to the overall situation.  The Bears are really really bad and Fields has been given terrible coaching and has still rose above it.  You never, ever, see that in the NFL.   Jones/Lawrence, play for SB winning coaches and are way more responsible for failure then success.  It's night and day for what Fields has been given and what he's been asked to do and he definitely made this decision very difficult on the Bears.  I'm sure it got even harder when the crowd was chanting his name at their last home game and then DJ Moore went to bat for him during exit interviews and told them to build around Fields. 

 

[JustInFudge]

39 minutes ago, Grandy said:

Lawrence is good and I wish we had him.

Oh wow

 

[slimjasi]

9 minutes ago, JustInFudge said:

I dont think 6% is a lot when you're talking about a player who literally cant push the ball down field and is atrocious when asked to.   It's like Chad Pennington vs. Brett Favre for a lack of a better example, does the 6% matter?  Nah.  And his INT% is hurt by a really bad rookie season but has gotten much better over the last 18 games and once again, he improved year over year and was better than both this season.

Plus, this is where situations come into play.  NE and the Jags using the short passing game a lot in replace of the run game.  Peterson loves to throw on short yardage/goal line situations (this is currently the biggest frustration of ever Jags fan).  The Bears run the ball more than both teams (2nd most in the NFL) and love to put Fields in 3rd and long situations and often run him in short yardage situations.  Fields doesnt get nearly the amount of layups as other QB's. 

GB game is a perfect example.  I guess because he plays behind the worst pass blocking OL in the NFL, they didnt love the passing game but he was fine, other then the sacks which were not on him, those were insta-sacks.  He was dicing them up and was like 10/11 at one point, then they stopped giving him easy looks and ran the ball like crazy in the second half while they were behind.  And that's speaks to the overall situation.  The Bears are really really bad and Fields has been given terrible coaching and has still rose above it.  You never, ever, see that in the NFL.   Jones/Lawrence, play for SB winning coaches and are way more responsible for failure then success.  It's night and day for what Fields has been given and what he's been asked to do and he definitely made this decision very difficult on the Bears.  I'm sure it got even harder when the crowd was chanting his name at their last home game and then DJ Moore went to bat for him during exit interviews and told them to build around Fields. 

 

We disagree about completion %, but that's a minor point. 

My big takeaway here is that you are making a lot of excuses for the guy. Trevor Lawrence fans will point to the clown show of Urban Meyer being the big reason for his disastrous rookie year. Mac Jones fans will point to NE having put laughably bad skill position players around him and Belichick being a dinosaur with no clue how to coach modern offense. All of these guys have excuses.

The bottom line is, they are all pretty similar in terms of passing production through 3 years. 

FWIW, I think the best argument for Fields is that he is one of the most dynamic running threats at QB in the entire league in addition to whatever he gives you as a passer. 

[hmhertz]

I didn't want either, they both suck.

Jones is a piece of sh!t, Lawrence is a nice guy.

Fields has a chance if he gets into a situation

like Miami's. He's got more physical ability than Tua. I prefer

Bo Nix or Penixxx to all three of them

[BornJetsFan1983]

13 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

🤔

lol

Damn!

[Beerfish]

Lawrence is better but this just shows that all the 'generational ' talk about Lawrence was a total joke.

[Greensleeves]

3 hours ago, slimjasi said:

Their team really likes him, but his passing numbers are not great. 

He would have been run out of town by now if he was on the Jets.