A Few Words on Vernon Davis...

[Warfish]

Today, and in recent days, there have been multiple reports that the Jets are planning to take TE Vernon Davis from Maryland. Who knows how legit these reports truly are......

The entire concept of such a choice makes me shudder, and no matter my usual

[Boozer76]

Great to see you posting here more often Fish, and I couldn't agree more with what you have to say here. Davis is the only pick that would absolutely make me sick to my stomach.

[L.I.MikeBleedsGreen]

This is the decade for TE's they are changing the game for the better, plus he is instant OFF IMO that we need.Do you think that the giants wo have been in the playoffs with out shockey? DON'T Think so!!! And he dosen't need to block for us that why we kept sorry ass chris baker for, so we can run 2 TE formations.Take the DUKE, maybe not at 4 but trade down for him and make DEF's pay the hard way!!! PLUS we need someone who can brake Tackles after the catch.. and thats him.We also don't have the best QB's in the world ,so we have to give them a big target to hit in those routes we are going to running.

[McGraw38]

Hey warfish, nice to cya.

Today, and in recent days, there have been multiple reports that the Jets are planning to take TE Vernon Davis from Maryland. Who knows how legit these reports truly are......

The entire concept of such a choice makes me shudder, and no matter my usual

[bman]

I dont know...I think a Gates in San Diego would be more important for the Jets than a Jon Abe...

The jets offense has SUCKED since 99...

We still have NO 'go to guy'...we've been seeking one ever since Keyshawn left...

In 98, jets had no all pro OT and no all pro DE...But the offense was kind of unstoppable..They would have been in the superbowl had it not been for turnovers..

Jets MUST get some offensive weapons...

[NIGHT STALKER]

That's not a few words...that's a damn novel...good read though.

[Boozer76]

Do you think that the giants wo have been in the playoffs with out shockey? DON'T Think so!!!

Actually yes, I do think the Giants still go to the playoffs without Shockey. If they had an average TE who produces about 400 or so yards with 4-5 TD's, then without a doubt they go to the playoffs and are still just about as good as they were. Shockeyt definately helps them out tremendously, but he is not the sole piece of that offense that can't be replaced. Right now that person is Barber, and soon it will be Manning.

[bman]

right...

but Rams do also with a Fabini type over Orlando Pace!

I'd rather have an above avergae servicable Offensive Line and PLaymekrs at the skill positions..rather than a dominant offensive line and a lack of talent at the skill positions...

Coles is above average..but not a threat

martin is average and NOT a threat..

jolly/baker below average

[Matt39]

Actually yes, I do think the Giants still go to the playoffs without Shockey. If they had an average TE who produces about 400 or so yards with 4-5 TD's, then without a doubt they go to the playoffs and are still just about as good as they were. Shockeyt definately helps them out tremendously, but he is not the sole piece of that offense that can't be replaced. Right now that person is Barber, and soon it will be Manning.

Ask any Giant fan what makes that offense tick, it's Shockey.

[TaborJet]

right...

but Rams do also with a Fabini type over Orlando Pace!

I'd rather have an above avergae servicable Offensive Line and PLaymekrs at the skill positions..rather than a dominant offensive line and a lack of talent at the skill positions...

Coles is above average..but not a threat

martin is average and NOT a threat..

jolly/baker below average

...and our QB's are average, at best.

[Matt39]

Today, and in recent days, there have been multiple reports that the Jets are planning to take TE Vernon Davis from Maryland. Who knows how legit these reports truly are......

The entire concept of such a choice makes me shudder, and no matter my usual

[joewilly]

I agree mr fish.. the more & more & more I think about the draft the more i'd like to see us trade down. while the draft is deep with talent, the super talent is just not there in the top 5-10 picks imo.

[Warfish]

Ask any Giant fan what makes that offense tick, it's Shockey.

Then that Giants fan whould be wrong. It's not the Shock, it's their RB. Without question.

Take away their RB, and they are out of the playoffs. Take away the Shock, and they are still right where they were.

[Matt39]

Then that Giants fan whould be wrong. It's not the Shock, it's their RB. Without question.

Take away their RB, and they are out of the playoffs. Take away the Shock, and they are still right where they were.

lol

[Warfish]

Since when is this kid an ego maniac? This post is comical, typical I know more than anyone post. Have you ever even seen him play?

Lol @ him being a terrible blocker. Please stop.

Of course I've seen him play. I live in DC and get all the Maryland games on TV and the highlights on the local sports news and on radio.

And anyone who sounds like D-Rob with his "Ain't no one can block me" tripe is too ego-driven, and not enough team-driven for my liking. And frankly, if you don;t see the "workout Wonder" similarities between Davis and D-Rob, you;re just not looking. Davis was NOT considered anything close to the #4 pick value wise pre-workouts, just liek D-Rob.

Matt, you're free to feel differently, and spout how great he is all you like my friend. You don't agree, tell us why Davis is the right choice at #4, the ONLY choice at #4, the VALUE choice at #4. Explain it, and let your argument stand on it;s merit. Saying I am "comical" or that I must have "not seen the games" attacks me, not my argument.

[Warfish]

lol

Great retort. Your logic is undenyable.

[Matt39]

Of course I've seen him play. I live in DC and get all the Maryland games on TV and the highlights on the local sports news and on radio.

And anyone who sounds like D-Rob with his "Ain't no one can block me" tripe is too ego-driven, and not enough team-driven for my liking. And frankly, if you don;t see the "workout Wonder" similarities between Davis and D-Rob, you;re just not looking. Davis was NOT considered anything close to the #4 pick value wise pre-workouts, just liek D-Rob.

Matt, you're free to feel differently, and spout how great he is all you like my friend. You don't agree, tell us why Davis is the right choice at #4, the ONLY choice at #4, the VALUE choice at #4. Explain it, and let your argument stand on it;s merit. Saying I am "comical" or that I must have "not seen the games" attacks me, not my argument.

Warfish, just reading your post, it seems you're taqlking down upon people who feel that Davis may very well be the best option at 4.

Take a look at every good receiver in this league, they all play with a chip on their shoulder. This whole Duke is a me first thing is being fabricated by guys who are scared to take TE.

Why do I think Davis is the right choice at 4? Because I'm not convinced Brick is a "franchise" OT. Anyone who's an average run blocker can't be considered franchise worthy.

Davis has skills you can't teach, size and speed. When I watched him, I saw a guy who dominated the ACC. I have plenty of friends who go to ACC schools, and simply put, they felt Davis was the best player on the field.

[Matt39]

Great retort. Your logic is undenyable.

Yeah, 65 catches for 900 yards and 7 TD'S didnt help the Giants with a rookie QB at all.

[joewilly]

this board is getting more awesome by the day with the likes of fish, gj& h posting regularly.

red rover red rover send yjf & flowtrain on over

[Boozer76]

Yeah, 65 catches for 900 yards and 7 TD'S didnt help the Giants with a rookie QB at all.

With all due respect Matt, the only one coming off as an arrogant know it all is you. But I digress........

Any Giants fan that I know (and unfortunately I know far too many) will tell you that the only irreplaceable part on their offense last year was Barber. And if they felt it was Shockey then they would be quite wrong. Shockey is a hell of a TE, there is no denying that. But the question was do the Giants make the playoffs without Shockey, which so long as they had an average TE (as in 400-500 yds and 4-5 TD's) then without a doubt they'd still make the playoffs.

I'm not against drafting Vernon Davis, I'm against drafting him 4th overall.

[Warfish]

Yeah, 65 catches for 900 yards and 7 TD'S didnt help the Giants with a rookie QB at all.

Thats not what you said, what you said was the "what makes that offense tick, it's Shockey.". Thats flat wrong. It's their running game, period. The TE in this case helps, because he's a decent blocker in the pros, and because their WR's are pretty weak all considered, but he is NOT in any form what makes the offense "go". He helps it alot, no question, but he is not the core.

Wafish, just reading your post, it seems you're taqlking down upon people who feel that Davis may very well be the best option at 4.

Take a look at every good receiver in this league, they all play with a chip on their shoulder. This whole Duke is a me first thing is being fabricated by guys who are scared to take TE.

Why do I think Davis is the right choice at 4? Because I'm not convinced Brick is a "franchise" OT. Anyone who's an average run blocker can't be considered franchise worthy.

Davis has skills you can't teach, size and speed. When I watched him, I saw a guy who dominated the ACC. I have plenty of friends who go to ACC schools, and simply put, they felt Davis was the best player on the field.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I saw an above-average catching yet-piss-poor-blocking College TE. I see (and hear) and ego-driven fool more worried about himself than his team (easy to do at Maryland, a horrible football school with mostly horrible players). I see a guy who would have been a late first rounder if he hadn;t shown himself as a "workout wonder", a la the "unblockable" D-Rob. And I see a guy who is simply not worthy of being the highest drafted TE in NFL history.

And if you think I am "talking down" to you, sorry man, but grow a pair and get over it. This is a message board, not a little-girl-tea-party. You gots your views, I gots mine. This is all just debate, nothing more, nothing less. Mangini will take what he thinks is best, and all of us can be damed if we don't like it, me, you, and anyone else.

[mbn007]

Warfish;

Good to see you here. I have always respected your opinions, as they are usually well thought out, and clearly stated and explained. I do not always agree with you, and in this case, I also do not agree. But i respect your right to state your case.

Davis sounds a lot like Shockey did when he was drafted. Very much so. He has the physical tools like a Shockey, except that he is much faster. He will be impossible for a L/B to cover him, as he is just as strong, as the slower ones, but to quick for them. He is to strong for the Vilma types to stop him.

He will draw a double team coverage on most passing downs. This should allow Coles the luxury of beinging covered one-on one, which will improve his game. I like that possibility.

I do not believe his ego will be a problem, as he sounds like the type who will not be afraid of the NY experience, with the media and such.

Is he the ideal choice. No. Mario would be my first choice, after Bush. But Davis vs. D'Brick? I would go with him, and not be worried. Personally, I would trade down with teh Raiders, get an extra 2nd rounder, and draft Ngata or Davis at #7, whomever is available. (I am assuming that D'Brick and Mario and one of Davis/Ngata will be gone within the 1st six picks.

[Warfish]

I'm not against drafting Vernon Davis, I'm against drafting him 4th overall.

BINGO!

[vinnys025]

Warfish;Good to see you here. I have always respected your opinions, as they are usually well thought out, and clearly stated and explained. I do not always agree with you, and in this case, I also do not agree. But i respect your right to state your case.

Walking on eggshells, or shoving his whole face up your arse....you decide.

[Boozer76]

Jeremy Shockey was the best TE of his class and the first TE drafted in 2002. He was taken 14th overall, which is about as high as a TE should ever go. I wouldn't even consider a TE until at best 10th overall.

[Warfish]

Warfish;

Good to see you here. I have always respected your opinions, as they are usually well thought out, and clearly stated and explained. I do not always agree with you, and in this case, I also do not agree. But i respect your right to state your case.

Davis sounds a lot like Shockey did when he was drafted. Very much so. He has the physical tools like a Shockey, except that he is much faster. He will be impossible for a L/B to cover him, as he is just as strong, as the slower ones, but to quick for them. He is to strong for the Vilma types to stop him.

He will draw a double team coverage on most passing downs. This should allow Coles the luxury of beinging covered one-on one, which will improve his game. I like that possibility.

I do not believe his ego will be a problem, as he sounds like the type who will not be afraid of the NY experience, with the media and such.

Is he the ideal choice. No. Mario would be my first choice, after Bush. But Davis vs. D'Brick? I would go with him, and not be worried. Personally, I would trade down with teh Raiders, get an extra 2nd rounder, and draft Ngata or Davis at #7, whomever is available. (I am assuming that D'Brick and Mario and one of Davis/Ngata will be gone within the 1st six picks.

Well stated Mbn. But I keep going back to what folks thought of other TE's te Jets have snagged in the first round, and the effect THEY were supposed to have.

Could I be wrong? Of course I could, hell, it happens all the time, lol. I was wrong as hell on Jolly (I thought he'd do okay), and I was wrong on a number of other issues in the past.

But a TE at #4 terrifys me, maybe it's just teh Jets horrid draft luck and especially their horrid TE Draft luck in the past, but I just don't see US, of all teams, making Davis the highest drafted TE in NFL history. I feel like we're watching a bad horror movie, where you knwo the ending thats coming (cause you've seen similar movies a few times) and you want to scream out "NOOOO!" but your helpless to stop it.

Look, I am not in love with ANY of the players available at #4, with Brick being my fav only because I truly believe you build a winning franchise in the trenches, the O and D lines. But beyond that, #4 plain old stinks this year, too much risk and too many questions all around.

If we trade down, and get Davis at 9 or 11 or 15, great. But not at #4. But I would say the same about Cutler, or Hawk or some of the others possibly there too.

[mbn007]

Well stated Mbn. But I keep going back to what folks thought of other TE's te Jets have snagged in the first round, and the effect THEY were supposed to have.

Could I be wrong? Of course I could, hell, it happens all the time, lol. I was wrong as hell on Jolly (I thought he'd do okay), and I was wrong on a number of other issues in the past.

If we trade down, and get Davis at 9 or 11 or 15, great. But not at #4. But I would say the same about Cutler, or Hawk or some of the others possibly there too.

Agreed, I guess.

I would rather D'Brick, if Mario is not available, at #4. I also believe that you need to build the trenches first. Johnny Unitas would never have accomplished what he did if he was running for his life on every pass, as Ransey/Chad may be doing in 2006 if we do not upgrade the O.Line. And if we do not upgrade the D-Line, where is the run-stuffer, and who is applying pressure on passing downs?

But again, there are other very solid options available for teh O.Line, within the first 100 picks. We should be able to snare 2 solid O.Linemen, even if we do not grab D'Brick at #4. This leads me to strongly consider a trade down to be enabled to grab Davis, and if he is gone, grab Ngata. If both are gone by #7, then maybe I trade down again, to someone who wants a QB, as Cutler and maybe 1 other of the big 3 are still available. Maybe I land more day 1 picks.

So, maybe I trade with the Riders for the #7, and a 2nd rounder. Then I trade down agin, maybe with Denver, and get the #15, and #22 or something else.

It can be done.

[aec4]

Today, and in recent days, there have been multiple reports that the Jets are planning to take TE Vernon Davis from Maryland. Who knows how legit these reports truly are......

The entire concept of such a choice makes me shudder, and no matter my usual

[Warfish]

Never forget folks, when judging my viewpoint, that I'm the one who for some insane reason thinks Patrick Ramsey is our best option at QB for 2006, and who think's he'll not only win the job, but will do pretty darn well for us.

So take me with a grain of salt, lol.

[Doggin94it]

For all of those against Davis, I have one question:

If he were a 6'3, 250, 4.3 running WR (instead of a TE) would you be against selecting him at 4? Particularly given where receivers with close to that skill set go in the draft (see Charles Rogers, Andre Johnson, Roy Williams, etc.) I'd guess no.

So what is it about the fact that this kid is a TE instead of a WR that makes you change your mind? And don't answer "because he's a TE" or "no TE has been drafted that high" - that's a cop out. Tell me why you think Davis' potential impact on the offense would be less than the potential impact of a WR with an identical resume

[Warfish]

For all of those against Davis, I have one question:

If he were a 6'3, 250, 4.3 running WR (instead of a TE) would you be against selecting him at 4? Particularly given where receivers with close to that skill set go in the draft (see Charles Rogers, Andre Johnson, Roy Williams, etc.) I'd guess no.

So what is it about the fact that this kid is a TE instead of a WR that makes you change your mind? And don't answer "because he's a TE" or "no TE has been drafted that high" - that's a cop out. Tell me why you think Davis' potential impact on the offense would be less than the potential impact of a WR with an identical resume

The only reason I can give is that WR is not the biggest need this team has. Not even close. We can win with our WR's and current TE's. We cannot win with our current O-line.

You make an excellent point, and remember, I was pro-Mike Williams back int he day for exactly those same reasons. But I truly believe our QB and O-line spots are so weak in term of protection and mobillity, that even if he IS great at the next level, he'll never see the ball becuase our QB will be on his back (or worse) most of the time.

And while you can choose to ignore it or not, he IS a TE, and he DID put up those numbers in shorts, on a track, with no coverage. He was never that fast on the field. And it's not a copout to say he has to be worthy of being the highest player ever drafted at his position. Goes to show great TE's CAN and ARE found lower int he draft.

[mbn007]

Never forget folks, when judging my viewpoint, that I'm the one who for some insane reason thinks Patrick Ramsey is our best option at QB for 2006, and who think's he'll not only win the job, but will do pretty darn well for us.

So take me with a grain of salt, lol.

You are not alone on Ransey. I happen to agree with you, although I would like Chad to completely recover and stay healthy. He has shown that he can win here, but Ramsey , IMO, will do the job if given a chance.

Spurrier is a difficult HC to play QB for, and Gibbs wanted the lefty gunslinger almost as soon as he agreed to come back. So, it is not completely off-base to state that Ramsey never was really "wanted" as the 'Skins starting QB. He may get a better shot here.

Maybe???

[Doggin94it]

The only reason I can give is that WR is not the biggest need this team has. Not even close. We can win with our WR's and current TE's. We cannot win with our current O-line.

You make an excellent point, and remember, I was pro-Mike Williams back int he day for exactly those same reasons. But I truly believe our QB and O-line spots are so weak in term of protection and mobillity, that even if he IS great at the next level, he'll never see the ball becuase our QB will be on his back (or worse) most of the time.

And while you can choose to ignore it or not, he IS a TE, and he DID put up those numbers in shorts, on a track, with no coverage. He was never that fast on the field. And it's not a copout to say he has to be worthy of being the highest player ever drafted at his position. Goes to show great TE's CAN and ARE found lower int he draft.

Fish, that makes sense, though I disagree with the philosophy of drafting for need rather than BAP at the 4 spot. Yes, Davis would not reach his potential without upgrades at the QB and OL, but why do those upgrades have to be THIS year, or even first round? There's a TON of OL help in this draft, and that deficiency can realistically be addressed at 29, 35, or in the third round and beyond (though I'd be upset if there wasn't at least 1 OL in the first 3 picks). QB may be a position we would need to address next year, if your faith in Patrick Ramsey doesn't pan out. I can live with Davis not having the best rookie year for lack of a QB if it means we have him for the next 9 years of a dominant career with a good QB.

[Warfish]

Fish, that makes sense, though I disagree with the philosophy of drafting for need rather than BAP at the 4 spot. Yes, Davis would not reach his potential without upgrades at the QB and OL, but why do those upgrades have to be THIS year, or even first round? There's a TON of OL help in this draft, and that deficiency can realistically be addressed at 29, 35, or in the third round and beyond (though I'd be upset if there wasn't at least 1 OL in the first 3 picks). QB may be a position we would need to address next year, if your faith in Patrick Ramsey doesn't pan out. I can live with Davis not having the best rookie year for lack of a QB if it means we have him for the next 9 years of a dominant career with a good QB.

If we take Davis at #4, and we get...say, Mangold and Jean-Gillies at #29 and #35, and perhapos a Whitehurst/Croyle/Jacobs at QB in the third or fourth.....well, I suppose I could live with that. Get a RB and a CB mid-round, and some line Depth late.......

But it's gonna take one hell of an immediate impact for Davis to not look like a Mitchell/Becht/Name-Your-Jets-Bust-TE-of-choice to many many folks. Davis, at that position, for this team, with these fans, will NOT get the benifit of a slow start, or a long development time in the pros.

But I must admit, some of you have put up some very good counter arguments here, and I am swayed to some slight degree from my original position. I won't DIE ON THE SPOT if we take him at #4, but I may instead just bleed profusely from my eyes and ears for a little while, but at least I'll live

[Matt39]

Thats not what you said, what you said was the "what makes that offense tick, it's Shockey.".

And you said, the Giants are the same exact team offensively with or without Shockey, which is falt out wrong imo.

Sorry if I came off the wrong way, but I just got the impression that if the Jets were to draft Duke Davis you'd be there to tell us "Same Ole Jets".

All I can say, lets watch this whole thing play out because all of us here have absolutely zero idea on how good any of these guys truly will be untill September comes around.