Martin-just the facts ma'am. The past guarantees nothing

[Bugg]

Stipulated-Martin has had a great career, but he hasn't been da bomb in big games. The question becomes what can we expect this year, when Martin will be 32. The answer, as per NFL history, is not much.

Here's the link for NFL RBs all time with stats. Note-many great backs -Jim Brown, Earl Campbell, Eric Dickerson, barry Sanders-are done at 32.Martin's contemporaries-Marshall Faulk, Priest Holmes and Eddie George-are either being fazed out (George)or slowing down and being replaced(Faulk). Holmes only played 8 games last year(injuries becoming more of a problem with age), and arguably was preserved to some extent with a late start from the beating RBs take by being a bench guy in Baltimore(which also comes into play with John Riggins).

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/rbindex.htm

Awright-let's get this out there. 1000+ yard seasons by 32+ backs. there aren't many.

John Henry Johnson at 34 in 1964 with a 5-9 Steeler team; I dunno-is that really comparable with 2005?Doubtful-

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/JohnJo02.htm

I've mentioned on several occasions that Marcus Allen did it-he didn't, but also found himself at 32/33 in 1993 run into the ground with KC by- ta da-PAUL HACKETT. 206 carries, 709 yards, 3.7 average with Montana playing 11 games. He was marginally useful therafter before becoming OJ's nemesis.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/AlleMa00.htm

Franco Harris at 33 in 1983, barely gets over 1000. His team had 3 solid backs, this was the last gasp of the great team, they won 10, but got spankled in the playoffs. He was on his way to Seattle the next year and then done. If you're looking for him as you north star for Martin being solid, forget it.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/HarrFr00.htm

Jerome Bettis-941 last year; even he saw that he's declining.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/BettJe00.htm

Walter Payton-85/86 great,and then done at 34-

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/PaytWa00.htm

Emmitt Smith-1000 barely at 32-and pretty much done after-

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/SmitEm00.htm

John Riggins-reborn at 34 and 35, and then done. Problem is, vis a vis Martin, is that Riggins was essntially retired and benched in midcareer due to his contract dispute with the Jets. Those down seasons-like Priest Holmes-cut down on his wear&tear, as did a player strike. Also, he was a big,durable bruiser-nothing like Martin.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/RiggJo00.htm

My intention is to simply ask-having seen all this,what other than wishful thinking encourages people to blithely assume Martin can go on for "a few more years"? NFL history says no.

[Smizzy]

Holmes isn't being forced out.

They got rid of Blaylock and they have Johnson,who can't hold PH jock.

[Bugg]

No. But Holmes, like Riggins, got a breather midcareer that Martin hasn't. And he did miss 8 games. All of these guys are getting pounded game in, game out. The fact that Riggins and Holmes took that much less of a pounding early in their careers gave them more on ther back end.

[spjets]

they've been saying the same sh*t for the past 2 years that he's too old....BS...unfort. for martin this year he'll get less carries cause of dingers style and those idiots will blame martins age for less carries....i think he'll be fine ...

[Bugg]

He's been good, but please-STOP WITH THE "HE'S BEEN GREAT STUFF". Did you bother to look at the numbers?He's not only different that Riggins, but he also doesn't play with as good an offense(Theismann/the Hogs/2 great WRs).And the same for Smith (same setup-great QB/OL/WRs)and Payton(suffocating D and a great OL). You cannot say he's gonna be better than those guys. You're cheerleading means nothing. Give me an argument based on FACTS that says he will still maintain this level. You really can't do it. Saying it over and over doesn't mean a damn thing. But it must give you comfort.

[Maxman]

Bugg...Don't the numbers also show that most have slowed down already?

My point is, hasn't Curtis outperformed expectations already at his age?

Curtis will slow down, no doubt. But the year he just had makes it interesting. I mean if he slows down next year he could still get 1,200 yards. Not too shabby.

[Bugg]

Please show me the NFL highlight reel where he runs over or past people in a big game like Riggins. I'll save you the trouble-there isn't any such footage. He's a compiler, and Hackett was only too willing to call his number over and over because it was the safe, easy and uninspired choice. He's been good, consistent, HoF quality, but I'm missing where or how you can expect him ever to grab a big game by the throat and run out the clock. The Jets couldn't do that in 2 playoff games that wound up in OT exactly beacuse he isn't that good. If you want a guy who can win agmes, grind out the clock and score TDs, Martin isn't that guy. if you like 24-30 carries for 65-85 yards, he's your man. I don't see him as anything special anymore. I don't think he's outperformed anything. Even last year, it took Martin 18 more carries to outdo Shawn Alwexander to get one more yard(371-353),while Alexander had 4 more rushing TDS(16-12).

Mrtin is not dominant. He's merely solid,which is okay. But don't expect this to go on.

[GimmeShelter]

These Martin threads are boring and redundant.

People have stated everything you've said for the past 3 years and have been wrong.

Martin is our back. Get over it.

Alexander would have had his rushing title except he FUMBLED against us.

When Martin finally does fall by the way-side you can then say I told you so if it makes you feel better.

[joewilly]

good post gimme................. martin works harder in the offseason than most people on the planet & will probably be brilliant this year in a more limited role.

[stormshadow19]

Man.. I think Bugg was channeling Savage or something...

Reguardless of the player, the past dictates nothing. That's obvious. Will Martin be an imapct player? Nope. I don't think he needs to be, quite frankly. He just needs to be dependable and grind it out. Besides all that, he's not going anywhere, so it is just annoying that this subject is brought up time and time again.

[jetgreen13]

Bugg...Don't the numbers also show that most have slowed down already?

My point is, hasn't Curtis outperformed expectations already at his age?

Curtis will slow down, no doubt. But the year he just had makes it interesting. I mean if he slows down next year he could still get 1,200 yards. Not too shabby.

good post maxman. 1,697 yards last year at 31, is not gonna turn into 800+ yards next year. i'm just not buyin it. i think martin will get 1,400+ next season. he's already done what no other back has ever done. have his career year at 31. throw the book out with this guy.

[Savage69]

Man.. I think Bugg was channeling Savage or something...

Reguardless of the player, the past dictates nothing. That's obvious. Will Martin be an imapct player? Nope. I don't think he needs to be, quite frankly. He just needs to be dependable and grind it out. Besides all that, he's not going anywhere, so it is just annoying that this subject is brought up time and time again.

Oh Stormy you silly Goose! But I agree with you!

Martin isn't a impact player and never was! He's

a nice Complement to a offense,rarely Fumbles and

is good with the short pass!Normally if Hackett was

still here I'd be worried about starting the Season

with a 32 year old anyone at RB!! But with Dinger I

think you'll also see alot of Blaylock! He is about

keeping the Defense off Guard unlike Hackett with

his Martin right,left and up the gut on a Draw play!

Great for Cumars stats,not good winning football!

[stormshadow19]

Oh Stormy you silly Goose! But I agree with you!

Martin isn't a impact player and never was! He's

a nice Complement to a offense,rarely Fumbles and

is good with the short pass!Normally if Hackett was

still here I'd be worried about starting the Season

with a 32 year old anyone at RB!! But with Dinger I

think you'll also see alot of Blaylock! He is about

keeping the Defense off Guard unlike Hackett with

his Martin right,left and up the gut on a Draw play!

Great for Cumars stats,not good winning football!

Sorry Savage... I had to work you in there, somehow

[BwanaZulia]

I can't believe this has started already.

This year, Martin goes over 1,700 yards, runs down everyone and wins big games.

Why you ask? New OC.

BZ

[Warfish]

It's kinda funny....everyone talks about stats with Martin, but not what is really important....HOW HE RAN!!!

Watch Martin running in 2004. I was never really impressed with what I saw him do. None of his runs LOOKED like the kind of thing that any other NFL back couldn't have doen in the same spot. You watch a Preist Holmes, a L.T., any top-stud RB and they make plays that leaves your mout open, plays THEY alone are responsible for, via their speed, moves, strength, whatever.

Martin doesn't do that. He never looks great running, he always looks pedestrian. He never gains big. Never runs the long one. Never breaks many tackles. Rarely dukes out folks. He simply slides past his O-line, gets his 2-5 yards and down he goes. No pop, no break away, no WOW, Just 3 yards...time after time after time. He didn't blow anyone away, he just ran consistently, 5 yards, 2 yards, 3 yards, 4 yards...ad neasuem.

And I'm sorry, but that kind of consistency wasn't the RB, it's the O-line, like it or not.

I know no one likes to believe it, but if Lamont Jordan had been the starter (say Martin retired before 2004), I promise you he would have had 1600+ yards too. I almost guarantee it.

I pray (nightly) that I'm wrong, and Martin is the RB version of Darrell Green, Jerry Rice, etc. I pray he'll be getting his 3 yards and cloud of dust at age 40, as long as that is what helps us win games.....but that is another debate.

But I fear (scary, I fear alot lately). I fear he's gonna hit a massive brick wall......soon. Instead of 3-5 yards, he'll be getting 1-2, especially with "Turnstile" Jones at tackle.

I suppose, as with all things, only time will tell.

[jetgreen13]

It's kinda funny....everyone talks about stats with Martin, but not what is really important....HOW HE RAN!!!

Watch Martin running in 2004. I was never really impressed with what I saw him do. None of his runs LOOKED like the kind of thing that any other NFL back couldn't have doen in the same spot. You watch a Preist Holmes, a L.T., any top-stud RB and they make plays that leaves your mout open, plays THEY alone are responsible for, via their speed, moves, strength, whatever.

Martin doesn't do that. He never looks great running, he always looks pedestrian. He never gains big. Never runs the long one. Never breaks many tackles. Rarely dukes out folks. He simply slides past his O-line, gets his 2-5 yards and down he goes. No pop, no break away, no WOW, Just 3 yards...time after time after time. He didn't blow anyone away, he just ran consistently, 5 yards, 2 yards, 3 yards, 4 yards...ad neasuem.

And I'm sorry, but that kind of consistency wasn't the RB, it's the O-line, like it or not.

I know no one likes to believe it, but if Lamont Jordan had been the starter (say Martin retired before 2004), I promise you he would have had 1600+ yards too. I almost guarantee it.

I pray (nightly) that I'm wrong, and Martin is the RB version of Darrell Green, Jerry Rice, etc. I pray he'll be getting his 3 yards and cloud of dust at age 40, as long as that is what helps us win games.....but that is another debate.

But I fear (scary, I fear alot lately). I fear he's gonna hit a massive brick wall......soon. Instead of 3-5 yards, he'll be getting 1-2, especially with "Turnstile" Jones at tackle.

I suppose, as with all things, only time will tell.

oh man...savage's "curtis martin senses" are tingling.

[slats]

Martin... never looks great running, he always looks pedestrian. He never gains big. Never runs the long one. Never breaks many tackles. Rarely dukes out folks. He simply slides past his O-line, gets his 2-5 yards and down he goes. No pop, no break away, no WOW, Just 3 yards...time after time after time. He didn't blow anyone away, he just ran consistently, 5 yards, 2 yards, 3 yards, 4 yards...ad neasuem.

And I'm sorry, but that kind of consistency wasn't the RB, it's the O-line, like it or not.

Man, I don't know.

Curtis's average is on the way up at age 32. He keeps himself in incredible shape, doing a workout program on his own in the offseason that would kill younger players. His 10 stright seasons of 1000+ yards ties an NFL record (w/Barry Sanders!), actually averaging over 1300 yards a season.

His 4.6 YPC leaves him in pretty elite company from last year. Few RB's in the 1000 yard range were running at that clip. And while his "long" of 25 yards is rather short, it's a testament to his consistency. Which I'd say is his consistency being that he's done it over his entire career. Playing thru pain that would put John Abraham on the IR for six years!

I know he's not a guy who's gonna break a 60 yard TD. I know a lot of his yards come on unnecessary draw plays.

Still, he's the kind of RB you can depend on. You build around a guy like that. He's another Marcus Allen, except that he's done more in 10 years than Hall of Famer Allen did in 15. But the durability/longetivity is there.

I'll tell ya, too: I would've cut Martin before the 2002 season, saved $10M against the cap, and plugged Jordan into the starting lineup without looking back. That's not what they chose to do.

So now, I can live pretty happily with Martin at RB, but definitely feel the team needs gamebreakers at the other offensive positions. that's why I want speed at TE, not Miller. That's why I ain't big on McGuy. Coles is track fast, but that's never translated onto the field. I'm gonna miss Moss a little, if they don't find another blazer. Maybe the new guy actually puts his backup RB to work, we've got some speed there.

But I'd lean on Martin, game in, game out, without concern.

[Savage69]

oh man...savage's "curtis martin senses" are tingling.

Not Really..Warfish speaks the Truth! And if you

read his post you'll see the "Secret" to both Cumars

Durability and why he doesn't fumble alot! Most

backs fight for extra yds when about to get tackled,

Martin covers the Ball and goes down..This saves him

from getting Gangtackled and the Ball stripped plus

wear and tear on his Body!! Add that to being at

the right place with Tuna as a Rookie and then with

Tuna again with the Jets and then with Hackett and

you should understand why he has always got all the

carries even when a healthy explosive back sat on

the Bench!! Someone compared Martin to Marcus Allen!

Allen has a career avg of 4.1 also..But Marcus Allen

for the exception of 1985 when he had 380 carries his

only 300+ carry year,averaged less then 200 carries a

year for the other 14 years! But how did he perform

in Big Games like the Super Bowl?? Well in 83 the

Raiders played the 14-2 Redskins.Allen had 20 carries

For 191 yds and 2 TD's..That to me is the Test of a

Backs ability..To hit another level in the Big games!

That's why 42 yds in the 96 Bowl and 14 yds in the 98

Denver Championship Game don't impress me!

[Maxman]

Anyone here besides Savage think Curtis Martin may have been on the grassy knoll back in the day?

[stormshadow19]

Anyone here besides Savage think Curtis Martin may have been on the grassy knoll back in the day?

Now that you mention it...

[PatsFanTX]

This year, Martin goes over 1,700 yards, runs down everyone and wins big games.

Why you ask? New OC.

BZ

Martin has NEVER run over people and he has NEVER performed well in big games against good teams.

That certainly won't change next year.

[Savage69]

Anyone here besides Savage think Curtis Martin may have been on the grassy knoll back in the day?

No way Martin never would have been able to Run

away..A Fat 50 year old Cop would have tackled him!!

[stormshadow19]

No way Martin never would have been able to Run

away..A Fat 50 year old Cop would have tackled him!!

I dunno Sav... back then, I think Martin ran a 4.6 40, so it might be possible :wink:

[Savage69]

I dunno Sav... back then, I think Martin ran a 4.6 40, so it might be possible :wink:

Since the Grassy Knoll was 10 years before he

was born I'd have to agree!!

[Barton]

For a smallish type back you'd think Martin would have more speed.

[Jets28]

These Martin threads are boring and redundant.

People have stated everything you've said for the past 3 years and have been wrong.

Martin is our back. Get over it.

Alexander would have had his rushing title except he FUMBLED against us.

When Martin finally does fall by the way-side you can then say I told you so if it makes you feel better.

...stop all the curtis bashing already. One thing that always gets my goat is when people compare players. Yeah I know it's done to kind of set a standard or to try and find a norm of some kind. But Curtis is not Jim Brown, Riggins, Barry Sanders or Priest Holmes. He is Curtis Martin damnit!!...He works out hard during the offseason and it shows during the season rather it be at a 4.3 speed or a 4.6. As long as the man is effective and helps the team and isn't hindering it, leave the man alone. He's our feature back and it's about time you all face it till they say otherwise....these threads about him really suck ass... . Give it up already.

[PatsFanTX]

A Fat 50 year old Cop would have tackled him!!

But at least he would have held onto the rock. :wink:

[Savage69]

...stop all the curtis bashing already. One thing that always gets my goat is when people compare players. Yeah I know it's done to kind of set a standard or to try and find a norm of some kind. But Curtis is not Jim Brown, Riggins, Barry Sanders or Priest Holmes. He is Curtis Martin damnit!!...He works out hard during the offseason and it shows during the season rather it be at a 4.3 speed or a 4.6. As long as the man is effective and helps the team and isn't hindering it, leave the man alone. He's our feature back and it's about time you all face it till they say otherwise....these threads about him really suck a$$... . Give it up already.

Gee a Fan with the username and Picture of Martin

complaining about others freedom of speech!! Here's

a idea..Why not stop reading any post except the one's that praise your Hero??

[Bugg]

Would you call his running in playoff games effective? He's arguably a better receiver than a runner in big games. When he has a great Super Bowl or playoff game-like Allen, Riggins, Emmitt Smith, Harris, Payton-let me know. Again, there's no Riggins vs. the Dolphins footage of Martin. How'd you like the Jets completely incapable of getting 1st downs late vs the Steelers and Chargers?Wouldn't a big-time back have taken those games by the throat and run roughshod over tired defenses? Martin couldn't do it. So spare us all how great he is. If Herm's tirade with the Bishop was over the HC wanting Jordan in the game instead of watching Martin slide off tacle for a little gain all night, it speaks very well of him that he recognized how ineffective martin was and how dumb the OC was to kmeep calling his number.

My point remains a decent back with a solid not great OL like the Jets getting as many carries (as his slavish OC and former HC at Pitt, Hackett, chose)as Martin would have pretty much have replicated his 2004 season. He's not worth his salary number. Jordan would be better; heck any number of younger backs getting that many carries would do as well if not better. And if the Jets are going to do anything, Blaylock will see plenty of time.

[Jets28]

You are staying on comparing Martin to others huh...and now you pull in the playoff stuff. I don't recall Curtis being our problem in the playoffs this year or any other year. That blame gets to rest solely on Mr. Brien for this year and usually on a missed play from some defensive cat or a QB throwing interceptions or a receiver not making a catch...get off it already. Let's just support the man and cheer him on. He is the Jets choice and thats not gonna change unless he's unproductive or if Dinger sees fit to start Blaylock or he may not use the run much at all looking at his style. So leave it alone already....

[Bugg]

don't recall Curtis being our problem in the playoffs this year or any other year.

Please-show me the big game he's ever had in the playoffs. And again, how is it that in 2 2004 playoff games the Jets were leading in the 4th quarter their big back-Martin-couldn't run out the clock. This isn't a problem? What's the point of paying him so much money if he can't get 1st downs late in playoff games when you have a lead?

[Jets28]

Please-show me the big game he's ever had in the playoffs. And again, how is it that in 2 2004 playoff games the Jets were leading in the 4th quarter their big back-Martin-couldn't run out the clock. This isn't a problem? What's the point of paying him so much money if he can't get 1st downs late in playoff games when you have a lead?

..he may have not gotten the big run cause his number wasn't called. But you can't put the L's on him or say that he didn't do what was called upon of him for the game. You act as if we had a faster, bigger RB that that would have changed the outcome. I recall some missed catches in that San Diego game. Not being able to score by land or air. Thats trouble in the offense not with Curtis alone. ANd the Steelers game...sheesh. We missed two field goals..and I could be wrong...but they weren't resting on Curtis's legs to get closer for that FG...they missed plenty catches. SO stop acting as if those L's are because Curtis wasn't running.

[PatsFanTX]

SO stop acting as if those L's are because Curtis wasn't running.

Including the two playoff games, Martin rushed for 1,840 yards in 18 games for an average of 102 yards per game.

In the two games against the Jets biggest rival in the AFCE, the two games against the Steelers and also the playoff game in San Diego (all big games) Martin was 94/318 yards for a 3.3 average per attempt and 63.6 yards per game.

In the other 13 games, Martin averaged 117 yards per game. That's a whopping 54 yards per game drop-off against good teams.

Face the facts, when the Jets have a big or important game, Martin is always a non-factor. The stats don't lie.

[Savage69]

Including the two playoff games, Martin rushed for 1,840 yards in 18 games for an average of 102 yards per game.

In the two games against the Jets biggest rival in the AFCE, the two games against the Steelers and also the playoff game in San Diego (all big games) Martin was 94/318 yards for a 3.3 average per attempt and 63.6 yards per game.

In the other 13 games, Martin averaged 117 yards per game. That's a whopping 54 yards per game drop-off against good teams.

Face the facts, when the Jets have a big or important game, Martin is always a non-factor. The stats don't lie.

Admit it Tex it's just the false advertising that

bothers you..Like"Curtis Curtis he's MY man...if he can't do it nobody can!!!" Nobody can?? Please

[PatsFanTX]

Admit it Tex it's just the false advertising that

bothers you..Like"Curtis Curtis he's MY man...if he can't do it nobody can!!!" Nobody can?? Please

I've always liked CuMar and I have no doubt he will one day be a HOFer.

However, the only reason he will go into the Hall is because of longevity and the ability to remain healthy.

That is no knock on him as there are very few individuals who have accomplished that.

But even the most die hard Jet fans and CuMar fans have to admit that he always underperforms (as he did with the Pats as well) in big game situations.

There is just no way you can spin that based on the facts.