The More Things Change, The More They Stay The Same

[RockHardRich]

Didn't you just love hearing Chad tell reporters how the Jets need to learn how to put the game away? How does that guy have the nerve to say that with a straight face? Then there was Mangini saying he was satisfied with how the team played, really?

He employs the 3-4 defense even though he doesn't have 3-4 personnel, and the Jets are dying with it. D. Robinson was a waste of three draft picks, GET THE BUM OUT OF THERE! Install the 4-3 because it couldn't be any worse, the Jets don't have the linebackers to play the 3-4, either. And maybe it's time to face the fact that Nugent was a waste of a #2 pick. Let's see, that makes Jolley, Nugent, and Robinson, as the most recent Jets' draft blunders, thanks Terry.

Oh, and don't you just love the home field advantage the team is creating? 0-2 at "Giants Stadium." Well, that will all change when the the Jets get their own stadium, "Giants/Jets Arena," thanks Woody!

This franchise will never change!

[Preston Howley III]

"Sometimes life can be like that. Sure."

[Scott Dierking]

You really don't understand the dynamics of changing a culture of a sports team, do you?

It is not a light switch that you can flick on and off and then there is sudden change. It is a process.

If you don't see at least subtle, and I would characterize them as major changes of philosophy and organization within this team, I don't think you are paying attention.

For oince, for once, the Jets as an organization are forcing action, dictating it, rather than being dictated to. Forcing other teams into using times out, forcing other teams to adjust their schemes, forcing teams into personnel packages that they want to see and attack.

The Jets are going for the jugular and trying to stomp on it (albeit it was foolhardy call at the 3 yard line), rather than being conservative and safe.

the Jets are telling their players "Let's go for it, i trust you and we will put you in positions to win". And they are believeing it. They have a hop in their step. They even have a little swagger.

It will not change overnight.

they don't have the players for the systems they are running. No kidding. But that does not stop you from running them, because you believe in them. Because you know they work. One off-season will not net you the players you need. But, you lay the foundation, so that when you do get the players, the groundwork is there and there is an un derstanding.

I don't think you are watching teh games

[AFJF]

Didn't you just love hearing Chad tell reporters how the Jets need to learn how to put the game away? How does that guy have the nerve to say that with a straight face? Then there was Mangini saying he was satisfied with how the team played, really?

He employs the 3-4 defense even though he doesn't have 3-4 personnel, and the Jets are dying with it. D. Robinson was a waste of three draft picks, GET THE BUM OUT OF THERE! Install the 4-3 because it couldn't be any worse, the Jets don't have the linebackers to play the 3-4, either. And maybe it's time to face the fact that Nugent was a waste of a #2 pick. Let's see, that makes Jolley, Nugent, and Robinson, as the most recent Jets' draft blunders, thanks Terry.

Oh, and don't you just love the home field advantage the team is creating? 0-2 at "Giants Stadium." Well, that will all change when the the Jets get their own stadium, "Giants/Jets Arena," thanks Woody!

This franchise will never change!

If you're going to go on another teams message board posing as one of their fans to rip them a new one, go ahead and learn the names of the players you're ripping to make it a bit more convincing.

carry on

[Sperm Edwards]

Well put Scott. I was screaming about not kicking the FG. (Guys I was with said he's a genius if it works - I said he's lucky if it works - it's just dumb).

That being said, but for two improbable plays - the onside kick (which I loved) and Miller's return - the non-FG would not have been a factor.

It still sticks in my craw a little bit right now, but the reality is this team has done massive rebuilding/retooling and are not finished doing either. To expect this team to suddenly beat up on the Colts, in what is essentially a rebuilding year, is nuts. Going toe-to-toe with a team that should've blown us out of the water will have to suffice.

If I have to hear about or relish in moral victories in Mangini's 2nd or 3rd season, then my opinion will change.

But for right now I can deal with this loss, considering we need:

- more experience for our rookie OLmen

- an OG

- a RT

- a FB

- a HB

- a TE

- a NT

- a real pass-rushing OLB

- a run-stuffing ILB who isn't a liability in coverage (Barton should be outside)

[AFJF]

Well put Scott. I was screaming about not kicking the FG. (Guys I was with said he's a genius if it works - I said he's lucky if it works - it's just dumb).

That being said, but for two improbable plays - the onside kick (which I loved) and Miller's return - the non-FG would not have been a factor.

It still sticks in my craw a little bit right now, but the reality is this team has done massive rebuilding/retooling and are not finished doing either. To expect this team to suddenly beat up on the Colts, in what is essentially a rebuilding year, is nuts. Going toe-to-toe with a team that should've blown us out of the water will have to suffice.

If I have to hear about or relish in moral victories in Mangini's 2nd or 3rd season, then my opinion will change.

But for right now I can deal with this loss, considering we need:

- more experience for our rookie OLmen

- an OG

- a RT

- a FB

- a HB

- a TE

- a NT

- a real pass-rushing OLB

- a run-stuffing ILB who isn't a liability in coverage (Barton should be outside)

I agree with everything you said except HB. I think Houston is fine if he's healthy...Barlow is fine if he gets a little bit of blocking, and I really like Leon Washington. With an improved OL the RB situation isn't as bad as it looks right now. Excellent points on the rest however.

[JetCane]

Here's a video clip of RockHardRich

[PatsFanTX]

Well put Scott. I was screaming about not kicking the FG. (Guys I was with said he's a genius if it works - I said he's lucky if it works - it's just dumb).

Stupid call in that situation.

You always take the points, especially after the offense went all the way down the field.

[Sperm Edwards]

I agree with everything you said except HB. I think Houston is fine if he's healthy...Barlow is fine if he gets a little bit of blocking, and I really like Leon Washington. With an improved OL the RB situation isn't as bad as it looks right now. Excellent points on the rest however.

Well it may not be priority #1, as I don't detest RBBC as many others do. I have no problem with them having 3 active HB's and using all of them equally, just going with who's hot. But Houston has been unreliable so far. If he turns it around, or if it's to replace him/them with someone only slightly better then erase it from the list - dominant run-blocking can mask HB's inadequacies.

But don't tell me you wouldn't rather have a Larry Johnson back there.

[Bugg]

Exclusive RRR picture-

:Nuts:

[Blackout]

Didn't you just love hearing Chad tell reporters how the Jets need to learn how to put the game away? How does that guy have the nerve to say that with a straight face? Then there was Mangini saying he was satisfied with how the team played, really?

He employs the 3-4 defense even though he doesn't have 3-4 personnel, and the Jets are dying with it. D. Robinson was a waste of three draft picks, GET THE BUM OUT OF THERE! Install the 4-3 because it couldn't be any worse, the Jets don't have the linebackers to play the 3-4, either. And maybe it's time to face the fact that Nugent was a waste of a #2 pick. Let's see, that makes Jolley, Nugent, and Robinson, as the most recent Jets' draft blunders, thanks Terry.

Oh, and don't you just love the home field advantage the team is creating? 0-2 at "Giants Stadium." Well, that will all change when the the Jets get their own stadium, "Giants/Jets Arena," thanks Woody!

This franchise will never change!

nobody goes 16-0 dude, and I think its pretty much America's concensus that the Colts are the best team in football

losing by 3 at home to the top team isn't anything to be ashamed of for an up and coming team

I'm not one to preach on moral victories, but this is an exception

[4HCrew]

This is not the same old Jets... the coaching is 10 times better than it has been in years and the team plays together and believes in itself. This is the first time in god knows how long where you cannot figure out the play calls and the other teams are reacting to our coaching moves and schemes.

[spjets]

This is the first time in god knows how long where you cannot figure out the play calls and the other teams are reacting to our coaching moves and schemes.

great post 4H....and you hit the nail on the head right there...NO ONE...knows what plays are gonna be called...and i love that..

[AFJF]

You guys do realize you're arguing with somebody who doesn't know the names of the players on this team right? He's either posing as a Jet fan, or a fan not worth talking to. I can understand not being a die hard who knows all there is to know about a team...but when you call Robertson "Robinson", that's all I need to see. Just wanted to make sure you guys realize what you're wasting your time on.

[Scott Dierking]

Stupid call in that situation.

You always take the points, especially after the offense went all the way down the field.

Not always TX, but in that situation, at the 3, you take the field goal.

It looked like they went with a "heavy" package, and on the 3 yard line, I don't think that you can sell "heavy", and once they did not respect play action, the options on that play were extremely limited.

The Jets did not have a lot of outs on that play, and seemed reliant on play action selling the netire play, and once that did not happen, well the play was doomed.

Wrong field position to be doing that.

[PatsFanTX]

Not always TX, but in that situation, at the 3, you take the field goal.

It looked like they went with a "heavy" package, and on the 3 yard line, I don't think that you can sell "heavy", and once they did not respect play action, the options on that play were extremely limited.

The Jets did not have a lot of outs on that play, and seemed reliant on play action selling the netire play, and once that did not happen, well the play was doomed.

Wrong field position to be doing that.

As usual, great call Dierk.

Bad decision, bad play and bad result.

[bitonti]

even though it was a bad call

a FG only makes it tied at the end of regulation

no guaruntee they win - if the Colts win the toss it's basically over

[#27TheDominator]

even though it was a bad call

a FG only makes it tied at the end of regulation

no guaruntee they win - if the Colts win the toss it's basically over

I believe they were couting on at a minimum pinning them at the 3. By throwing the INT, it threw everything out the window. We couldn't really stop them, but maybe Mangini thought he could deal with their O from the 3 where Peyton can't get his full drop.

[PatsFanTX]

even though it was a bad call

a FG only makes it tied at the end of regulation

no guaruntee they win - if the Colts win the toss it's basically over

bit, I agree with that.

However, after a great drive like that, you have to put points on the board.

The FG would not have guaranteed a win, but you have to take 3.

[Scott Dierking]

even though it was a bad call

a FG only makes it tied at the end of regulation

no guaruntee they win - if the Colts win the toss it's basically over

You can not make the basic assumption if the Jets kick the field goal, the rest of teh game plays out the way that it did. Heck, if the Jets kick teh FG, they may kick off and recover a fumble and score a TD.

The whole game would be different.

I hate it when announcers say "if only they would have.........". Once a play is made or not made, the rest of the game is not scripted. You can't say those things.

Back to the call, the risk reward was not balanced there. Too far out.

[DMaynard]

Didn't you just love hearing Chad tell reporters how the Jets need to learn how to put the game away? How does that guy have the nerve to say that with a straight face? Then there was Mangini saying he was satisfied with how the team played, really?

He employs the 3-4 defense even though he doesn't have 3-4 personnel, and the Jets are dying with it. D. Robinson was a waste of three draft picks, GET THE BUM OUT OF THERE! Install the 4-3 because it couldn't be any worse, the Jets don't have the linebackers to play the 3-4, either. And maybe it's time to face the fact that Nugent was a waste of a #2 pick. Let's see, that makes Jolley, Nugent, and Robinson, as the most recent Jets' draft blunders, thanks Terry.

Oh, and don't you just love the home field advantage the team is creating? 0-2 at "Giants Stadium." Well, that will all change when the the Jets get their own stadium, "Giants/Jets Arena," thanks Woody!

This franchise will never change!

Hey, viagra boy, do you know anything about football?

[JetCane]

You can not make the basic assumption if the Jets kick the field goal, the rest of teh game plays out the way that it did. Heck, if the Jets kick teh FG, they may kick off and recover a fumble and score a TD.

The whole game would be different.

I hate it when announcers say "if only they would have.........". Once a play is made or not made, the rest of the game is not scripted. You can't say those things.

Back to the call, the risk reward was not balanced there. Too far out.

Agreed. Everything changes everything.

[Scott Dierking]

I believe they were couting on at a minimum pinning them at the 3. By throwing the INT, it threw everything out the window. We couldn't really stop them, but maybe Mangini thought he could deal with their O from the 3 where Peyton can't get his full drop.

No, they were counting on teh TD. You don't make that call against the Colts, with field position in mind.

I am pleased that I have not ready any problems with Chad throwing the pick. He had to try and force the throw in there, regardless the outcome.

if it was someone like Kenny O'Brien, who would have been mindful of the stat (no red zone INTs ever), he would have chucked it out of bounds. That was NOT the play there.

[#27TheDominator]

No, they were counting on teh TD. You don't make that call against the Colts, with field position in mind.

I am pleased that I have not ready any problems with Chad throwing the pick. He had to try and force the throw in there, regardless the outcome.

if it was someone like Kenny O'Brien, who would have been mindful of the stat (no red zone INTs ever), he would have chucked it out of bounds. That was NOT the play there.

Obviously the play is to get the TD, but if Mangini didn't consider what happened if the play didn't work he's an idiot. I don't think he's an idiot.

[Scott Dierking]

Obviously the play is to get the TD, but if Mangini didn't consider what happened if the play didn't work he's an idiot. I don't think he's an idiot.

I don't believe that he went in with the mindset of "If this doesn't work, we leave them backed up". If he did, then he is stupid, because that is the wrong thinking with the Colts.

This was not a call of "IF or OR". This was a call of expecting to make a TD. I am sure he will say that today, and it would be his only excuse.

[#27TheDominator]

I don't believe that he went in with the mindset of "If this doesn't work, we leave them backed up". If he did, then he is stupid, because that is the wrong thinking with the Colts.

This was not a call of "IF or OR". This was a call of expecting to make a TD. I am sure he will say that today, and it would be his only excuse.

Guess we have different ideas of what makes a smart coach. I don't think anybody knows they are going to score a TD from 3 yards out, let alone a team that runs like us. If you don't figure all eventualities into it and the odds of each, I'm not excited about your coaching IQ.

[Scott Dierking]

Guess we have different ideas of what makes a smart coach. I don't think anybody knows they are going to score a TD from 3 yards out, let alone a team that runs like us. If you don't figure all eventualities into it and the odds of each, I'm not excited about your coaching IQ.

27, If Mangini tells me that he was not 100% sure he could get the TD there, I would be entirely dissapointed.

If ANY, and I mean ANY aspect of his thought process was "Well, If we don't get the TD, we leave them at the 3", I would say it was boneheaded.

I can't look at it any other way. This was not a 2nd guess on my part, as I was thinking it at the time. Mangini even had teh benefit of an extended TV timeout to think about this.

i honestly thought Nugent was injured and couldn't kick.

[#27TheDominator]

27, If Mangini tells me that he was not 100% sure he could get the TD there, I would be entirely dissapointed.

If ANY, and I mean ANY aspect of his thought process was "Well, If we don't get the TD, we leave them at the 3", I would say it was boneheaded.

I can't look at it any other way. This was not a 2nd guess on my part, as I was thinking it at the time. Mangini even had teh benefit of an extended TV timeout to think about this.

i honestly thought Nugent was injured and couldn't kick.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it. I want a coach that thinks about every possible thing that might happen, not a guy who goes with his gut and says we'll punch it in here. I want my qb, rb, OL, thinking we'll score easy, we can't be stopped. I want my coach thinking about what happens if 90mph winds kick up at the exact moment of the snap etc. I want total preparedness.

Now if Nugent were hurt none of it would matter.

[Scott Dierking]

I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it. I want a coach that thinks about every possible thing that might happen, not a guy who goes with his gut and says we'll punch it in here. I want my qb, rb, OL, thinking we'll score easy, we can't be stopped. I want my coach thinking about what happens if 90mph winds kick up at the exact moment of the snap etc. I want total preparedness.

Now if Nugent were hurt none of it would matter.

I do agree with that premise, BUT, in this circumstance, I needed Mangini to feel 100% that teh result would be TD. What happens otherwise, should NOT be a factor in that decision, in my mind.

You gotta get points off that drive, regardless. There would be no mral victories in that drive not finishing in points.

Dubious call.

[AFJF]

27, If Mangini tells me that he was not 100% sure he could get the TD there, I would be entirely dissapointed.

If ANY, and I mean ANY aspect of his thought process was "Well, If we don't get the TD, we leave them at the 3", I would say it was boneheaded.

I can't look at it any other way. This was not a 2nd guess on my part, as I was thinking it at the time. Mangini even had teh benefit of an extended TV timeout to think about this.

i honestly thought Nugent was injured and couldn't kick.

How would that thought not enter his mind SD? Every single player, coach, and fan in the NFL KNOWS that there is no such thing as a play that is guaranteed to work. Any coach would have to consider both sides of it and IMO, Mangini had to. The Colts are the best offense in the NFL. When you have a chance to make them start a drive from inside their own 5 yard line it helps in the decision making. Do you honestly think any HC makes a call without considering the the result if it fails?

[Scott Dierking]

How would that thought not enter his mind SD? Every single player, coach, and fan in the NFL KNOWS that there is no such thing as a play that is guaranteed to work. Any coach would have to consider both sides of it and IMO, Mangini had to. The Colts are the best offense in the NFL. When you have a chance to make them start a drive from inside their own 5 yard line it helps in the decision making. Do you honestly think any HC makes a call without considering the the result if it fails?

If Mangini went into that play call with the thought of "You know what, if this does not work, I leave them pinned back, and that is an acceptable outcme", I lose all respect for the man. We are then in trouble.

That was NOT an acceptable outcome, particularly against the Colts. Some other teams I would have no problem with that being an acceptable outcome, perhaps.

If you go for it in that spot, and think that you may nbot make it, you better kick. You HAVE to have points. I can accept that he went for it expecting a TD. It would be awful to think that he considered a pin back as a reasonable outcome.

[PatsFanTX]

If Mangini went into that play call with the thought of "You know what, if this does not work, I leave them pinned back, and that is an acceptable outcme", I lose all respect for the man. We are then in trouble.

That was NOT an acceptable outcome, particularly against the Colts. Some other teams I would have no problem with that being an acceptable outcome, perhaps.

If you go for it in that spot, and think that you may nbot make it, you better kick. You HAVE to have points. I can accept that he went for it expecting a TD. It would be awful to think that he considered a pin back as a reasonable outcome.

You are exactly correct.

Mangini was looking for 6, and nothing else.

Manning is just as dangerous from the 1 as he is from the 30.

[AFJF]

You are exactly correct.

Mangini was looking for 6, and nothing else.

Manning is just as dangerous from the 1 as he is from the 30.

Of coure he was "looking for six". Every coach in the NFL is "looking" for a win on Sunday. Doesn't mean they find it, and it doesn't mean that they were unaware of the fact that they just might lose a game.

Thats exactly what we need. A HC who doesn't think ahead and consider the situaion as a whole.

Does this mean it would be wise to go for it on 4th and 10 from your own 1 yard line becaue you were "looking for a first down" and ignoring the fact that if you don't make it, the other team only needs one yard for a score?

[Scott Dierking]

Of coure he was "looking for six". Every coach in the NFL is "looking" for a win on Sunday. Doesn't mean they find it, and it doesn't mean that they were unaware of the fact that they just might lose a game.

Thats exactly what we need. A HC who doesn't think ahead and consider the situaion as a whole.

Does this mean it would be wise to go for it on 4th and 10 from your own 1 yard line becaue you were "looking for a first down" and ignoring the fact that if you don't make it, the other team only needs one yard for a score?

AFJ-Do you think in teh play call discussion that they had with Chad, that the talk EVER turned to "If you don't see the guy open Chad, throw the ball away or run. We can't afford to give away this field position"?

Of course it didn't. Leavibf Indy at the 3 was never a viable option for Mangini. Or it shouldn't have been.

That was an all or nothing call, with no basis for settling for anything being acceptable.

I will say this-If mangini weighed his options, and thought leaving Indy at the 3 was better than 3 points-The man will not make it as a Head Coach. That would be horrible decision making and the likes of it will ruin his shot of being a Head coach long in this league.

Yeah, backing Manning up to the 3 will really make he and that offense nervous. C'mon people.

[Jetfan13]

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:Nuts:

what the hell was that all about? Someone please fill me in