UNCLUTCH

[madmike1]

I didn't start anything with you you butted in.

The reason the yankees were able to turn it around (as i said) was that they started to draft much better and sign the right kind of free agents like David Wells Jimmy Key and David Cone. They just got better at picking players and knowing which of their own players to trade and which to hold on to.

[madmike1]

So what?

I happen to think that slap hitting pain in the ass role players are harder to get out than free swingers like your hero A-rod and Giambi who swing for the fences ALL THE TIME.

Well considering the fact that Giambi and Arod make outs at a MUCH lesser rate then Brosius shouldn't they be the guys you want to build a team around?

Brisous career OBP:323

Giambi: 413

A Rod: 386

[Scott Dierking]

Butted in? Butted in? This is a message board where people type messages. It is not the MadMike forum where we ignore his obsession with himself and what he feels is correct only in his mind. Get over yourself.

And youer last paragraph, you agreed EXACTLY what Bill and I were trying to tell you. get the RIGHT players, not necessarily the BEST players, as you originally said.

DOUBLE YIKES on your flip.

[BP]

Well considering the fact that Giambi and Arod make outs at a MUCH lesser rate then Brosius shouldn't they be the guys you want to build a team around?

Brisous career OBP:323

Giambi: 413

A Rod: 386

Do you have any situational stats in your notebook?

If I needed a run to tie a game with a man on 3rd and less than 2 outs,I would take Brosius over both of them any time.

[madmike1]

The right players and the best players are the same thing.

I never said you don't have a right to butt in. Just don't accuse me of starting an argument with you.

[Scott Dierking]

No they are not.

[BP]

The right players and the best players are the same thing.

Good lord,

This was stimulating,I'm out.

[madmike1]

Do you have any situational stats in your notebook?

If I needed a run to tie a game with a man on 3rd and less than 2 outs,I would take Brosius over both of them any time.

Those stats are barely worth looking at because they don't carry over from year to year. If you go over any large sample size the players that get the most "big hits" are just the best players. Not that brosius' career "clutch" stats are that great.

Keep in mind his career OPS is 745:

RISP: 750 OPS

RISP 2 OUT: 725 OPS

CLOSE AND LATE: 746 OPS

As with most players, his "clutch" stats are pretty damn similar to his career avg's.

[madmike1]

Uh yes they are. If you are thinking logically. When the yankees signed those players they were the best options on the market for the pirce the yankees were looking to spend...

I'm still waiting for proof that replacing arod with some "role player" would make the yankees a better team.

[Scott Dierking]

Those stats are barely worth looking at because they don't carry over from year to year. If you go over any large sample size the players that get the most "big hits" are just the best players. Not that brosius' career "clutch" stats are that great.

Keep in mind his career OPS is 745:

RISP: 750 OPS

RISP 2 OUT: 725 OPS

CLOSE AND LATE: 746 OPS

As with most players, his "clutch" stats are pretty damn similar to his career avg's.

On your grave, people will etch the letters OPS.

And children will stop and laugh.

Good night to the ridiculousness.

[BP]

Those stats are barely worth looking at because they don't carry over from year to year. If you go over any large sample size the players that get the most "big hits" are just the best players. Not that brosius' career "clutch" stats are that great.

Keep in mind his career OPS is 745:

RISP: 750 OPS

RISP 2 OUT: 725 OPS

CLOSE AND LATE: 746 OPS

As with most players, his "clutch" stats are pretty damn similar to his career avg's.

Dude,you are stubborn.

Me and Scott are making perfect sense,you actually agreed with us for a second..and then you turned back to the dark side.

I don't care if you pull stats out of your ass all night,I saw with my own 2 eyes what wins the WS and what doesn't..it's a proven method..you win them with role players,not superstars at every position.

[Scott Dierking]

How do YOU know what the Yankees budget was and how much they were going to spend?

Stop with your little BS charade.

First you said they need to sign the BEST PLAYERS. Now you are saying they signed the BEST OPTIONS. Which, coincidentally I told you was the way to go.

You must get dizzy from spinning so much

[madmike1]

On your grave, people will etch the letters OPS.

And children will stop and laugh.

Good night to the ridiculousness.

Excuse me for wanting to use the BETTER stat but since you're just gonna be an ass as usual how about batting avg.

Brosius is a career 257 hitter:

RISP: 265BA

RISP 2 OUT: 244BA

CLOSE AND LATE: 249BA

Again his numbers in "clutch" situations are pretty close to his overall numbers.

[madmike1]

Common sense dictates that you CAN'T sign all the best players because they are under contract with other teams. I have to explain that to you? When i say BEST PLAYERS i'm talking about best free agents.

[madmike1]

Dude,you are stubborn.

Me and Scott are making perfect sense,you actually agreed with us for a second..and then you turned back to the dark side.

I don't care if you pull stats out of your ass all night,I saw with my own 2 eyes what wins the WS and what doesn't..it's a proven method..you win them with role players,not superstars at every position.

If you think you are going to win by hoping to get guys to have career years after being a player to be named later you're going to be waiting a long time to win... And even in Scotty's career year he wasn't as good as arod.

[Scott Dierking]

If you think you are going to win by hoping to get guys to have career years after being a player to be named later you're going to be waiting a long time to win... And even if Scotty's career year he wasn't as good as arod.

How did they compare in the playoffs?

Think that gets any consideration of best fit?

[madmike1]

How did they compare in the playoffs?

Think that gets any consideration of best fit?

Brosius in the playoffs:

245BA 696OPS

Arod in the playoffs:

280BA 847OPS

[Bugg]

Taking Arod out of the yankee lineup and putting in a "role player" will make the yankees a worse team. If you want role players worry about the garbage backup catching situation and utility infielder, not arod.

What he said. All fine and good to badmouth A-rod-until you think about what alternative might be, and they aren't good. Figure sombody like Mike Lowell with a worse glove. And in a lineup with matsui and Giambi declining, that's not really good. And we have Tom Hicks on the hook for a good chunk of his contract.

[TaborJet]

Here are Arod's clutch hits.

May 5, 2004: A day after hitting his 350th career home run, A-Rod smacks his 351st, a ninth-inning solo shot in Oakland to tie the game and help spark Yanks' comeback victory.

August 4, 2004: Launches two-run, game-winning home run in bottom of 11th, breaking 6-6 tie against A's at Stadium.

Oct. 6, 2004: Drives in game-tying run in bottom of 12th inning in Game 2 of Division Series against Twins with ground-rule double — putting Derek Jeter, the eventual winning run, on third. A-Rod finishes game 4-for-6 with homer and three RBI.

Oct. 9, 2004: Three days later, scores the series-clinching run in Minnesota when he doubles, steals third, and comes home on a wild pitch.

Oct. 16, 2004: Before it all goes south against Boston in ALCS, A-Rod helps crush Red Sox in 19-8 Game 3 thrashing, with three hits, three RBI, a homer and five runs scored.

April 26, 2005: Hits three home runs in first three at-bats and becomes only 11th major leaguer to drive in double-digit runs in single game, finishing 4-for-5 with 10 RBI in 12-4 drubbing of Bartolo Colon and Angels at Yankee Stadium.

July 14, 2005: Tags Curt Schilling (pitching in relief, sans bloody sock) for two-run homer in ninth inning at Fenway that breaks 6-6 tie and proves to be game-winner.

August 4, 2005: Clubs solo homer in top of ninth off Cleveland closer Bob Wickman to tie game at 3 and set up game-winning solo shot by Jason Giambi.

June 28, 2006: In midst of month-long slump that has Yankee fans jeering, A-Rod blasts a two-run, 12th-inning homer to beat Braves at the Stadium.

July 2, 2006: In Subway Series finale at Yankee Stadium, hits grand slam and three-run homer in 16-7 shellacking of Mets.

[124]

How are some of those clutch hits in 12-4, 16-7 and 19-8 games?

Nothing in the playoffs since 04 and nothing against Boston minus a homer off a coming back from injury Schilling, still was a great shot, but c'mon A-Rod. Play some defense too.

[Bugg]

Go look at the stats of th Twins series in 2004, along with the first 3 game sof the Sawx series. A-rod dominated. Does that not count? What happened in the final 4 agmes was a team-wide breakdown as well as a total mismanagment of pitching-again-by the beloved Padre Joe.But no one is allowed to bring up how year after year Torre gets his lunchs tolen in the playoffs.

When you have Wayne Garrett Jr. or Mike Pagliarulo Jr. at 3rd instead of A-rod, your fondest wish, you will be singing a different tune.

[Scott Dierking]

Go look at the stats of th Twins series in 2004, along with the first 3 game sof the Sawx series. A-rod dominated. Does that not count? What happened in the final 4 agmes was a team-wide breakdown as well as a total mismanagment of pitching-again-by the beloved Padre Joe.But no one is allowed to bring up how year after year Torre gets his lunchs tolen in the playoffs.

When you have Wayne Garrett Jr. or Mike Pagliarulo Jr. at 3rd instead of A-rod, your fondest wish, you will be singing a different tune.

Some players are winners and propel teams in big games and winning situations. Somehow, their teams win and they help affect those wins.

Some guys are just stat compilers and never become a part of winning organizations. They just never fit.

There is no stat that helps guide you as to why or what the intangibles are, other than they win.

It really is that simple. Either you are a winner, or not. Not all guys were meant to be winners. Just the way it is.

[BP]

Go look at the stats of th Twins series in 2004, along with the first 3 game sof the Sawx series. A-rod dominated. Does that not count? What happened in the final 4 agmes was a team-wide breakdown as well as a total mismanagment of pitching-again-by the beloved Padre Joe.But no one is allowed to bring up how year after year Torre gets his lunchs tolen in the playoffs.

When you have Wayne Garrett Jr. or Mike Pagliarulo Jr. at 3rd instead of A-rod, your fondest wish, you will be singing a different tune.

I will give another example.

In 1993 the Yankees traded Roberto Kelly (a potential superstar) for a platooned,left handed hitting right fielder that nobody really liked (even Pinella didn't like Paul O'Neil)..that trade was the launching point of that dynasty's mind set.when fat David Wells showed up Torre in 98 in Texas,the entire team wouldn't talk to Wells until he apologized to Torre.and that was all lead by O'Neil,a character player..the Yankees need more of them again..and A-Rod is not a character player no matter how many stats you show me.

[Maxman]

Some players are winners and propel teams in big games and winning situations. Somehow, their teams win and they help affect those wins.

Some guys are just stat compilers and never become a part of winning organizations. They just never fit.

There is no stat that helps guide you as to why or what the intangibles are, other than they win.

It really is that simple. Either you are a winner, or not. Not all guys were meant to be winners. Just the way it is.

OPSW tells you that. Jeters quotient is 1.000. Reyes is .784. Reyes is a good player but Jeter is the gold standard. The only current player who comes close is Schilling at .894.

[Maxman]

ARod made the greatest individual sacrifice of all time for his team. He would have been the greatest SS. He hasn't always said the right things. But he wanted to be a Yankee. Let's cut him a little slack.

[BP]

ARod made the greatest individual sacrifice of all time for his team. He would have been the greatest SS. He hasn't always said the right things. But he wanted to be a Yankee. Let's cut him a little slack.

When he starts playing defense,and has productive outs, and stops swinging for the fences when all the Yanks need is a flyball,then I will cut him some slack.

[Maxman]

When he starts playing defense,and has productive outs, and stops swinging for the fences when all the Yanks need is a flyball,then I will cut him some slack.

He has given too many at bats away over the past few years. What he needs to do is be himself and just hit. You know who should concentrate on productive outs? Everyone not named AROD. I am not being 100% serious but he can do things nobody else can. He can go yard at anytime. I am willing to forgive him every now and then.

He could hit 50 home runs this year. Not easy for a righty to do in the Bronx.

[madmike1]

I will give another example.

In 1993 the Yankees traded Roberto Kelly (a potential superstar) for a platooned,left handed hitting right fielder that nobody really liked (even Pinella didn't like Paul O'Neil)..that trade was the launching point of that dynasty's mind set.when fat David Wells showed up Torre in 98 in Texas,the entire team wouldn't talk to Wells until he apologized to Torre.and that was all lead by O'Neil,a character player..the Yankees need more of them again..and A-Rod is not a character player no matter how many stats you show me.

You know why that was a great trade? Because O'Neill turned out to be a BETTER PLAYER THEN KELLY. The yankees did a superb job seeing that kelly might have been a bit overrated and traded him at the right time. They saw a 27 year old who's OBP was in the 320s and saw that trading him for O'neill was a no brainier because O'Neill was a BETTER PLAYER in a concrete measurable way.

[GimmeShelter]

I will give another example.

In 1993 the Yankees traded Roberto Kelly (a potential superstar) for a platooned,left handed hitting right fielder that nobody really liked (even Pinella didn't like Paul O'Neil)..that trade was the launching point of that dynasty's mind set.when fat David Wells showed up Torre in 98 in Texas,the entire team wouldn't talk to Wells until he apologized to Torre.and that was all lead by O'Neil,a character player..the Yankees need more of them again..and A-Rod is not a character player no matter how many stats you show me.

Maybe St. Derek should have been taking notes. Some Yank fans ala some Jet fans must have a goat when championships are not won. The ENTIRE Yankee team sucked against Detroit last season particulary the manager with his more than curious moves. In 05 the same was true against Anaheim.

The funny part is it looks like the Yanks best player is off to the start of a monster season and has the ability to walk away afterwards as Torre and Jeter give Joe's buddy at SI another interview burying their own player.

[madmike1]

When he starts playing defense,and has productive outs, and stops swinging for the fences when all the Yanks need is a flyball,then I will cut him some slack.

Your obsession with "productive outs" has hardly any real correlation with actually scoring runs. Arod produces more runs then most players who make "productive outs."

[BP]

You know why that was a great trade? Because O'Neill turned out to be a BETTER PLAYER THEN KELLY. The yankees did a superb job seeing that kelly might have been a bit overrated and traded him at the right time. They saw a 27 year old who's OBP was in the 320s and saw that trading him for O'neill was a no brainier because O'Neill was a BETTER PLAYER in a concrete measurable way.

But Mike,what were O'Neil's stats in Cincinnati against left handed pitching?

Even Stick Michael had to ask around about O'Neil before he pulled the trigger on that trade,so it really wasn't a no-brainer.

[Bugg]

I will give another example.

In 1993 the Yankees traded Roberto Kelly (a potential superstar) for a platooned,left handed hitting right fielder that nobody really liked (even Pinella didn't like Paul O'Neil)..that trade was the launching point of that dynasty's mind set.when fat David Wells showed up Torre in 98 in Texas,the entire team wouldn't talk to Wells until he apologized to Torre.and that was all lead by O'Neil,a character player..the Yankees need more of them again..and A-Rod is not a character player no matter how many stats you show me.

Let me say this politely-this is nonsense. O'neill, as a good a player as he was, wasn't in A-rod's class, and he'd tell you as much.

So I guess you're comparing him to Roberto Kelly, which is a joke.I pretty much have a hard time believing anyone can compare the two.

You discount the good he's done here as noted above.

You discount what he did yesterday.

You discount his 2005 MVP.

You discount his career with the Mariners.

You are being unfair. I guess he has to bat 1.000 with 85 homers or he sucks.

C'mon-can you just let the guy play? Nobody is living up to his contract( a contract, by the way, that the Texas Rangers are paying the bulk of). He had a great day yesterday, and as far as "clutch" this team, with it's awful starters so far, neede a win like this. That was clutch.

[madmike1]

But Mike,what were O'Neil's stats in Cincinnati against left handed pitching?

Even Stick Michael had to ask around about O'Neil before he pulled the trigger on that trade,so it really wasn't a no-brainer.

It wasn't a no brainier but there were things they recognized in O"Neill that they saw, made him a player they wanted. If your point is you want the yankees to trade worse players for better ones (like this trade) i'm all for it...

[BP]

Maybe St. Derek should have been taking notes. Some Yank fans ala some Jet fans must have a goat when championships are not won. The ENTIRE Yankee team sucked against Detroit last season particulary the manager with his more than curious moves. In 05 the same was true against Anaheim.

The funny part is it looks like the Yanks best player is off to the start of a monster season and has the ability to walk away afterwards as Torre and Jeter give Joe's buddy at SI another interview burying their own player.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the whole team,you're right.

But A-rod's performance against the Tigers last year was so putrid (I don't think he even fouled a ball off),it was an obvious lump job in his throat,he doesn't like pressure.

[madmike1]

I'm not disagreeing with you about the whole team,you're right.

But A-rod's performance against the Tigers last year was so putrid (I don't think he even fouled a ball off),it was an obvious lump job in his throat,he doesn't like pressure.

You have to get there too though. And Arod was a big reason the yankees got there.