Same Old Jets

[#27TheDominator]

Were there colossal busts taken top 5 at RB? Sure. Was McNeil one of them? Absolutely not. Was he an all-time great? Not even close. Perhaps is he was drafted 74th overall like Curtis Martin he'd get a fairer treatment from me.

But in this case, McNeil falls in the list of draft picks who disappointed. We got a solid starter, not a runner in the caliber of the 11 names above. Just another missed opportunity the Jets had time and time again in the draft.

Horrific logic and analogy. Martin wasn't drafted by the Jets. He was drafted in the 3rd by the Pats, the Jets had to give him a HUGE contract $36M for 6 + a first round draft pick, + a third round draft pick. During the salary cap era that was HUGE investment.

You think some of us might have been a little disappointed when Martin put up 8 TDs and 1300 yards at 3.5 a clip while the Pats used that very draft pick to take Robert Edwards who put up 1100 + with better ypc and more TDs?

McNeill had an injury plagued career, but when he was on he was like smoke and he ALWAYS put up very good ypc. Equating his pick with disasters such as Blair Thomas or Lam Jones is ridiculous.

[JustInFudge]

So teams deserve the Same Old Jets label every time they draft somebody that isn't an "all-time great"? Martin is apparently an all-time great and IMO McNeill was a better back.

I was very young when McNeil was in his prime, so I cant adequately judge him and compare him to Martin. The McNeil I remember was pretty much washed up and situational.

But its crazy how many people agree he was the better back when he only broke 1k twice and never reached 10 TD mark his entire 11 year career.

Do people think he was better strictly because he had game breaking ability?

Unfortunately, the Jets dont have a storied history of greatness...that includes players. For people my age, 31, Martin was the best player we've ever had. Hands down. So I get why people like me are so sensitive to this subject. All the old timers love to tell us how ****ty he was. But in reality, I cant recall a player on the Jets that was any where near his caliber.

I mean Mawae was a beast when he was hear...I remember Al Toon who I thought had the potential to be an all time great.......Mo Lewis was outstanding...but really outside of that...there hasnt been much greatness besides Curtis Martin in my life time as a Jets fan. I think some of you older wiser fans need to recognize that when debating how ****ty Curtis Martin was and insulting everyone's knowledge of the game and the team because we feel Martin was an all time great and one of the best Jets to ever play.

[Scott Dierking]

I was very young when McNeil was in his prime, so I cant adequately judge him and compare him to Martin. The McNeil I remember was pretty much washed up and situational.

But its crazy how many people agree he was the better back when he only broke 1k twice and never reached 10 TD mark his entire 11 year career.

Do people think he was better strictly because he had game breaking ability?

Unfortunately, the Jets dont have a storied history of greatness...that includes players. For people my age, 31, Martin was the best player we've ever had. Hands down. So I get why people like me are so sensitive to this subject. All the old timers love to tell us how ****ty he was. But in reality, I cant recall a player on the Jets that was any where near his caliber.

I mean Mawae was a beast when he was hear...I remember Al Toon who I thought had the potential to be an all time great.......Mo Lewis was outstanding...but really outside of that...there hasnt been much greatness besides Curtis Martin in my life time as a Jets fan. I think some of you older wiser fans need to recognize that when debating how ****ty Curtis Martin was and insulting everyone's knowledge of the game and the team because we feel Martin was an all time great and one of the best Jets to ever play.

You see, this is the problem.

Curtis Martin people complain was a compiler. They grade him down.

Freeman Mcneil, for a good part of his career shared workloads (Harper, Hector) and people complain he only got 1k two times.

How do you win?

Mcneil NEVER averaged less than 4 yards a carry ANY year. he was an awesome receiver. He was not the goal line back for the Jets.

All he was was spectacular when they needed to be, and would get you a first down.

He was injury plagued, and that was the one knock against him.

Some people look at stats only, and become brain dead.

[slats]

Curtis Martin people complain was a compiler. They grade him down.

Freeman Mcneil, for a good part of his career shared workloads (Harper, Hector) and people complain he only got 1k two times.

How do you win?

McNeil was the far more explosive player. They were always concerned about him getting hurt, and I seem to remember him getting nicked up here and there. The Jets were platooning their backs back in Freeman's time the way it seems almost every team does today. McNeil was a first and second down guy, Hector came in for most third downs and all of the short yardage situations.

And the guy played in his prime for Joe Walton, who was way too often busy trying to outsmart himself. McNeil probably would've put up significantly better numbers under a more conventional coordinator.

[#27TheDominator]

I was very young when McNeil was in his prime, so I cant adequately judge him and compare him to Martin. The McNeil I remember was pretty much washed up and situational.

But its crazy how many people agree he was the better back when he only broke 1k twice and never reached 10 TD mark his entire 11 year career.

Do people think he was better strictly because he had game breaking ability?

Unfortunately, the Jets dont have a storied history of greatness...that includes players. For people my age, 31, Martin was the best player we've ever had. Hands down. So I get why people like me are so sensitive to this subject. All the old timers love to tell us how ****ty he was. But in reality, I cant recall a player on the Jets that was any where near his caliber.

I mean Mawae was a beast when he was hear...I remember Al Toon who I thought had the potential to be an all time great.......Mo Lewis was outstanding...but really outside of that...there hasnt been much greatness besides Curtis Martin in my life time as a Jets fan. I think some of you older wiser fans need to recognize that when debating how ****ty Curtis Martin was and insulting everyone's knowledge of the game and the team because we feel Martin was an all time great and one of the best Jets to ever play.

McNeil was a great. He ALWAYS put up very good ypc numbers. He never put up big TD numbers because the Jets generally carried a FB for short yardage TDs. Freeman had the misfortune of having the NFL strike twice in his prime. His best season was '82 and he would certainly gone over 1000. He was averaging 5.2 ypc, but the strike ended the season at 9 games. In '87 they had a short strike and used replacement players and he only got 8 games in. Freeman was hurt quite a bit and the only time he played all 16 he ended up with 944 yards. He had some great games in the playoffs and the 200+ yards he put up against Cincy followed by 100+ against a very tough Raider team in '82 before Shula left the tarp off were epic.

Another issue is that Joe Walton was a frustrating guy. Think of Brian Schottenheimer on crack. Walton would constantly outsmart himself and as the head man he seemed completely unhinged. The way Freeman fell out of favor was completely inexplicable. The guy kept putting up good numbers, but Walton drafted Blair Thomas to "hit the hole that split second faster" and stopped using Freeman. Other than his losing focus in that game where he blew up the guys knee with a cut block I don't remember anything "bad" that could be said about the guy.

I'll stop comparing him to Martin because I understand the value of Martin's career, appreciate his play and I don't want to offend anybody more than I already have, but while Martin had a better career, I would sincerely take McNeil for a playoff run.

[JustInFudge]

You see, this is the problem.

Curtis Martin people complain was a compiler. They grade him down.

Freeman Mcneil, for a good part of his career shared workloads (Harper, Hector) and people complain he only got 1k two times.

How do you win?

Mcneil NEVER averaged less than 4 yards a carry ANY year. he was an awesome receiver. He was not the goal line back for the Jets.

All he was was spectacular when they needed to be, and would get you a first down.

He was injury plagued, and that was the one knock against him.

Some people look at stats only, and become brain dead.

I dont see why what I said was a problem. I admitted I never got to watch him in his prime. What I got to see was a washed up injury prone situational RB. So all I have to go on is looking at the stats...based on those, its almost a no brainier that Curtis was the better back...but again, I never saw McNeil in his prime so I'm not going to stomp my feet and argue.

When I grew up, I was embarrassed I was a Jets fan. Then Parcells came around and did every thing in his power to get Curtis Martin. I respect Parcells especially his talent assessments. Knowing how badly he wanted Martin and what he was willing to give up for him, speaks volumes IMO about Curtis Martin the player.

Consequently, I relate Curtis Martin to what I see as a complete turn around from the dark ages for the Jets. Parcells was the man on the sideline helping make that turn around, but Martin was the hand picked warrior on the field I most attribute to the Jets becoming a team that has been pretty competitive for the most part since he came over from the Pats.

I think you old timers lose sight of that...

[Scott Dierking]

McNeil was a great. He ALWAYS put up very good ypc numbers. He never put up big TD numbers because the Jets generally carried a FB for short yardage TDs. Freeman had the misfortune of having the NFL strike twice in his prime. His best season was '82 and he would certainly gone over 1000. He was averaging 5.2 ypc, but the strike ended the season at 9 games. In '87 they had a short strike and used replacement players and he only got 8 games in. Freeman was hurt quite a bit and the only time he played all 16 he ended up with 944 yards. He had some great games in the playoffs and the 200+ yards he put up against Cincy followed by 100+ against a very tough Raider team in '82 before Shula left the tarp off were epic.

Another issue is that Joe Walton was a frustrating guy. Think of Brian Schottenheimer on crack. Walton would constantly outsmart himself and as the head man he seemed completely unhinged. The way Freeman fell out of favor was completely inexplicable. The guy kept putting up good numbers, but Walton drafted Blair Thomas to "hit the hole that split second faster" and stopped using Freeman. Other than his losing focus in that game where he blew up the guys knee with a cut block I don't remember anything "bad" that could be said about the guy.

I'll stop comparing him to Martin because I understand the value of Martin's career, appreciate his play and I don't want to offend anybody more than I already have, but while Martin had a better career, I would sincerely take McNeil for a playoff run.

Freeman Mcneil, to a large degree, is the reason that NFL players became free agents. He led that charge.

He was also a very sensitive player. I recall a game where he was the lead blocker, and had to take a blitzing LB out at the knees (it was legal then, and this play was why the rule was changed), and he ruined this players knees.

It affected him so much that it affected his game, and Walton (the dope) called him out on it.

To call Freemen McNeil a top 50 back of all time, is no stretch

[Scott Dierking]

I dont see why what I said was a problem. I admitted I never got to watch him in his prime. What I got to see was a washed up injury prone situational RB. So all I have to go on is looking at the stats...based on those, its almost a no brainier that Curtis was the better back...but again, I never saw McNeil in his prime so I'm not going to stomp my feet and argue.

When I grew up, I was embarrassed I was a Jets fan. Then Parcells came around and did every thing in his power to get Curtis Martin. I respect Parcells especially his talent assessments. Knowing how badly he wanted Martin and what he was willing to give up for him, speaks volumes IMO about Curtis Martin the player.

Consequently, I relate Curtis Martin to what I see as a complete turn around from the dark ages for the Jets. Parcells was the man on the sideline helping make that turn around, but Martin was the warrior on the field I most attribute to the Jets becoming a team that has been pretty competitive for the most part since he came over from the Pats.

I think you old timers lose sight of that...

Freeman McNeil did for the early 80's Jets, what Martin did for your jets.

You used numbers to equate a player, which isd always a problem

Sorry that you were ever embarrassed by a sports team.

[JustInFudge]

McNeil was a great. He ALWAYS put up very good ypc numbers. He never put up big TD numbers because the Jets generally carried a FB for short yardage TDs. Freeman had the misfortune of having the NFL strike twice in his prime. His best season was '82 and he would certainly gone over 1000. He was averaging 5.2 ypc, but the strike ended the season at 9 games. In '87 they had a short strike and used replacement players and he only got 8 games in. Freeman was hurt quite a bit and the only time he played all 16 he ended up with 944 yards. He had some great games in the playoffs and the 200+ yards he put up against Cincy followed by 100+ against a very tough Raider team in '82 before Shula left the tarp off were epic.

Another issue is that Joe Walton was a frustrating guy. Think of Brian Schottenheimer on crack. Walton would constantly outsmart himself and as the head man he seemed completely unhinged. The way Freeman fell out of favor was completely inexplicable. The guy kept putting up good numbers, but Walton drafted Blair Thomas to "hit the hole that split second faster" and stopped using Freeman. Other than his losing focus in that game where he blew up the guys knee with a cut block I don't remember anything "bad" that could be said about the guy.

I'll stop comparing him to Martin because I understand the value of Martin's career, appreciate his play and I don't want to offend anybody more than I already have, but while Martin had a better career, I would sincerely take McNeil for a playoff run.

And I'll have to take your word for it. Just like I take my fathers word on Namath. I never saw them, so I cant judge them.

But based off what you described of McNeil, he seems like high risk (injury) high reward (performance) type guy. I'm not a gambler, so when I do, I take the high percentage plays...which doesnt sound like that describes McNeil.

[#27TheDominator]

Freeman Mcneil, to a large degree, is the reason that NFL players became free agents. He led that charge.

He was also a very sensitive player. I recall a game where he was the lead blocker, and had to take a blitzing LB out at the knees (it was legal then, and this play was why the rule was changed), and he ruined this players knees.

It affected him so much that it affected his game, and Walton (the dope) called him out on it.

To call Freemen McNeil a top 50 back of all time, is no stretch

You want SOJ? Part of the curse of the Jets is that strikes hit two times when they had very strong teams ('82&'87) and that shortly after making the AFC title game they had coaching changes to morons (Walton and Herm). When I think of the Jets having a very good team now, the first thing I imagine is the looming strike throwing all that out the window.

[Scott Dierking]

And I'll have to take your word for it. Just like I take my fathers word on Namath. I never saw them, so I cant judge them.

But based off what you described of McNeil, he seems like high risk (injury) high reward (performance) type guy. I'm not a gambler, so when I do, I take the high percentage plays...which doesnt sound like that describes McNeil.

My original post was not a direct indictment of your, more so an attempt to let you know that McNeil split time at the HB spot, he was not a true feature back. Johnny Hector got the goal line chances.

McNeil was the consummate team player.

I stand by my assessment that he is an all time top 50 back in the NFL.

[slats]

Joe Walton, who was way too often busy trying to outsmart himself.

Walton would constantly outsmart himself and as the head man he seemed completely unhinged.

Great minds!

[Scott Dierking]

You want SOJ? Part of the curse of the Jets is that strikes hit two times when they had very strong teams ('82&'87) and that shortly after making the AFC title game they had coaching changes to morons (Walton and Herm). When I think of the Jets having a very good team now, the first thing I imagine is the looming strike throwing all that out the window.

The strike happening in '82 was SOJ.

Let them play that season a full slate, and the Jets probably earn home field. That shortened season, and their slow start doomed them to road games in that stupid "playoff tournament"

The Jets were the best AFC team that year.

[Scott Dierking]

Great minds!

Calling his players "pea-brains" did not exactly endear himself in the locker room.

[JustInFudge]

Freeman McNeil did for the early 80's Jets, what Martin did for your jets.

You used numbers to equate a player, which isd always a problem

Sorry that you were ever embarrassed by a sports team.

I used stats as an example of why this is such a head scratcher for me. If you've been reading my posts, I've said several times that I cant adequately judge a player that I've never seen play.

I wasnt around, so I'll take your word that McNeil did what Martin did for my generation.

However, I will say I find this hard to believe considering Martin only played one season where we had a losing record, and we've been competitive since his arrival. The same cant be said about McNeil, he played in his fair share losing seasons and after 86 we were awful until the arrival of Parcells and Martin in which we've been pretty competitive since.

[#27TheDominator]

And I'll have to take your word for it. Just like I take my fathers word on Namath. I never saw them, so I cant judge them.

But based off what you described of McNeil, he seems like high risk (injury) high reward (performance) type guy. I'm not a gambler, so when I do, I take the high percentage plays...which doesnt sound like that describes McNeil.

I don't think the risk was that high, but we do have a differing view on it. I'd rather a guy that puts up great numbers when he is in there and misses time than a guy that does average work forever. IMO, assuming you have a decent backup, you are better off getting your magic and then living with the 3.8 - 4 ypc you'll get from plan B. Think of Tim Raines for the Yanks. He was good or somebody else was in there.

Medical technology has improved a great deal. There were some great, great backs that got hurt and never could return. Billy Simms was an absolute savage before he got hurt. His first two years in the league monsters. Now people expect RB by committee and you can plug anybody in there, but in the 70s and early 80s guys like Simms and the Pruitts put up some sick games and believe me no RBBC or platoon was going to replace what they provided. The rules changes that help the passing game (see Biggs post in the Namath defenders thread) have changed the running game by extension because teams need to worry about pass so much they can't stack the box and leave one CB to mug the WR and count on decapitating the QB when they get there.

This was the start of NFL on CBS for years:

y0O7973Ew8A&NR=1

[Scott Dierking]

I used stats as an example of why this is such a head scratcher for me. If you've been reading my posts, I've said several times that I cant adequately judge a player that I've never seen play.

I wasnt around, so I'll take your word that McNeil did what Martin did for my generation.

However, I will say I find this hard to believe considering Martin only played one season where we had a losing record, and we've been competitive since his arrival. The same cant be said about McNeil, he played in his fair share losing seasons and after 86 we were awful until the arrival of Parcells and Martin in which we've been pretty competitive since.

McNeil helped make the Jets pertinent at that time, when they were doormats for so long. He gave the jets credibility.

[jgb]

I used stats as an example of why this is such a head scratcher for me. If you've been reading my posts, I've said several times that I cant adequately judge a player that I've never seen play.

you mean like in person? you can watch hours of namath playing - SBIII is aired every month it seems like and there are plenty of Jets DVDs out there with lots of namath footage. The problem of course with watching footage is you need to be a historian almost to put performances into the context of the times.

[#27TheDominator]

I used stats as an example of why this is such a head scratcher for me. If you've been reading my posts, I've said several times that I cant adequately judge a player that I've never seen play.

I wasnt around, so I'll take your word that McNeil did what Martin did for my generation.

However, I will say I find this hard to believe considering Martin only played one season where we had a losing record, and we've been competitive since his arrival. The same cant be said about McNeil, he played in his fair share losing seasons and after 86 we were awful until the arrival of Parcells and Martin in which we've been pretty competitive since.

My Dad bought our first VCR to tape the '82 Jets playoffs. He's taped pretty much every game since. I still have the tapes. I'm not kidding when I say the guy was smoke. That's what it looked like they were tackling. Someday I'll convert them to digital.

[Scott Dierking]

My Dad bought our first VCR to tape the '82 Jets playoffs. He's taped pretty much every game since. I still have the tapes. I'm not kidding when I say the guy was smoke. That's what it looked like they were tackling. Someday I'll convert them to digital.

The dislocated elbow that Freemen suffered was one of the ugliest injuries I have seen.

[Bx Jet Fan]

I can't believe nobody has said it yet so I will. Mark Sanchez.

[shawn306]

My Dad bought our first VCR to tape the '82 Jets playoffs. He's taped pretty much every game since. I still have the tapes. I'm not kidding when I say the guy was smoke. That's what it looked like they were tackling. Someday I'll convert them to digital.

Agreed.

McNeil was more electrifying than Martin was. McNeil IMHO could have been a HOF'er if he had been able to stay healthy, but you can say that about alot of running backs.

McNeil was fast, could cut on a dime and leave defenders grasping at air.

[LionelRichie]

Some SoJ names that come to mind:

Chris McCallister / Jermaine Lewis - Win & get into playoffs in 2000: McCallister had a 100 yd-int return (thanks Vinny) going into half time when the Jets had the lead and could have gone up big. Lewis had 2 punt return TD's. Jets rolled up 500+ yds and completely dominated the Ravens in every stat except score. The Ravens went on to win the Super Bowl that year. Exit Al Groh, enter Herm.

Leon Johnson - so much promise, ugly knee injury that pretty much ended his career

Tom Tupa (playing QB) after the Jets Super Bowl hopes were destroyed along with Vinny's achilles

Alex Van Dyke, Curtis Conway, Blair Thomas, Don Boyd Odegard

[Jetscode1]

Criswell and Cadigan.

The poster children of Same Ol Jets.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/16/sports/pro-football-don-t-raise-any-flags-around-criswell.html

When it comes to depth on the offensive line, the Jets have very little experience, so Criswell and Cadigan are both indispensable.

In addition to their high number of penalties, Criswell and Cadigan raised their visibility last season with a radio program on WFAN called "In the Trenches." Criswell thinks that's where the trouble started. Static on the Dial

"We opened ourselves up," he said. "It should have been a great season. If it had, things would have been different; maybe things wouldn't have been so bad. We were playing poorly. A lot of things happened.

"Dave and I tried to express some factual things that we knew were true. They got taken from the show that we did to the next show with Mike and the Mad Dog. And they just tore us apart."

Gotta agree with this post. Criswell is the first name to pop in my head. Consistently called for a penalty when we needed it least.