SenorGato Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I still prefer Shane Ray. Let me put it this way. I have 3 Favorite Players in this draft in different rounds.. LB - Shane Ray OT - Brandon Scherff QB - Sean Mannion Production, Production, Production. Yeah but you just made that whole schpiel about wanting a guy who can terrorize QBs...I mean you can prefer Ray, sure, but the reality is that your best bet for that in this draft is with Bud Dupree. I mean even in production....Dupree has, IIRC 6-7 more sacks than Ray in college despite actually playing LBer. Ray's whole job was to get to the QB, they didn't really ask much else of him, and he still only pulled out one big season. Production as your primary argument works best when it's somthing like Terrell Suggs putting up 30 sacks in a major college conference as a teenager... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinstar Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Yeah but you just made that whole schpiel about wanting a guy who can terrorize QBs...I mean you can prefer Ray, sure, but the reality is that your best bet for that in this draft is with Bud Dupree. I mean even in production....Dupree has, IIRC 6-7 more sacks than Ray in college despite actually playing LBer. Ray's whole job was to get to the QB, they didn't really ask much else of him, and he still only pulled out one big season. Production as your primary argument works best when it's somthing like Terrell Suggs putting up 30 sacks in a major college conference as a teenager... Come on man . Everyone knows that the SEC leader in sacks this season sat behind the SEC leader in sacks last season. Shane ray produced in limited playing time before this year and when he got the full time gig, he blew up. I understand you like Dupree and that's fin e, but when I watch him play I see Bryan Thomas with all the athletic ability in the world, but always a step late to amassed those big sack totals. I came to love the way Thomas played the OLBer position because he could set the edge against the run like a true warrior and was still capable of being in the right place in zone coverage. I want someone who will be get the sack, not the pressure,and with that 1st step, Shane Ray to me is that player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorge o8 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I disagree. I think our OL is very mediocre the way it stands right now. We can't block the Bills and the Dolphins just signed Suh yet we're supposed to keep gambling on OLB's who are more likely to be the next Gholston or Melvin Ingram. And don't give me the whole "Chan Gailey has the spread offense" nonsense you cannot scheme your way around a bad O-line like we currently have unless Brady or Manning is the QB and even then. our O line is not bad I will admit is not great but "bad" I would not go so far we got depth at the guard spot and we need to start thinking about drafting guys to take over when our OTs are gone but bad I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 which pass rusher is the best natural true linebacker ? which pass rusher is the best in coverage ? which pass rusher is the best instinctive football player ? I really really really don't want a "tweener" a DE who is forced to stand up and learn how to play OLB I don't want a 3rd down specialist. I want a 3 down OLB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 looks like fowler is my man, but he is a hybrid tweener ? ugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 our O line is not bad I will admit is not great but "bad" I would not go so far we got depth at the guard spot and we need to start thinking about drafting guys to take over when our OTs are gone but bad I don't think so. Our O-line sucks. Big mistake if we neglect it in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerfish Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 Our O-line sucks. Big mistake if we neglect it in the draft. Who do you suggest? If we pick a friggin guard (scherff) at 6 with the wr and pass rushers early in this draft we are flat out retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Beasley will give you nothing outside of being a speed edge guy. At 6, I dont think we do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinstar Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Who do you suggest? If we pick a friggin guard (scherff) at 6 with the wr and pass rushers early in this draft we are flat out retarded. This kind of thinking is why the Giants win SBs and the Jets win the off season. To win it all you have to do 2 things; Protect the QB while being able to open holes in the running game. Put the QB on his back while being able to stop the run. We can't do either well enough to be anything more than what we are. A team just Good enough to get lucky once in a while. The man is right, our OL sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerfish Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 This kind of thinking is why the Giants win SBs and the Jets win the off season. To win it all you have to do 2 things; Protect the QB while being able to open holes in the running game. Put the QB on his back while being able to stop the run. We can't do either well enough to be anything more than what we are. A team just Good enough to get lucky once in a while. The man is right, our OL sucks. The jets had the best oline in the game under rex the 1st two years and we did not win. The game has morphed. There is literally only one olineman evern worht a minor thought at 6 and that is scherff and he is not a LT prospect. I was 100% behind drafting dbrick when we did and then mangold a few years back. the player value was there, and it made sense. Drafting an olineman at 6 this year? sure by all means but there simply isn't one worthy. We need a Qb more than anything else so some of you dudes should be hollering for mariota. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinstar Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 The jets had the best oline in the game under rex the 1st two years and we did not win. The game has morphed. There is literally only one olineman evern worht a minor thought at 6 and that is scherff and he is not a LT prospect. I was 100% behind drafting dbrick when we did and then mangold a few years back. the player value was there, and it made sense. Drafting an olineman at 6 this year? sure by all means but there simply isn't one worthy. We need a Qb more than anything else so some of you dudes should be hollering for mariota. Why, so he can fail like Sanchez and Geno behind our awful OL which is right handed at Run blocking and blocks defensive line stunts like it's a new invention ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerfish Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 Why, so he can fail like Sanchez and Geno behind our awful OL which is right handed at Run blocking and blocks defensive line stunts like it's a new invention ? What? Sanchez had a great line. Geno had a good enough oline, one of the top rated running teams in the league and was in most cases givne enough time to throw the ball. It's a fallacy that the jets have a terrible oline. Hey if you want to build a super line like dallas did by all means but this draft simply doesn't have top end at 6 prospects. If have noticed I have been all over Cam Erving since draft talk started. Would be happy to get him in the 2nd, not sure he is going to be there. I simply think taking brandon scherff at 6 this year with guys like cooper, white, 2 or 3 passs rushers would be stupid as can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinstar Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 What? Sanchez had a great line. Geno had a good enough oline, one of the top rated running teams in the league and was in most cases givne enough time to throw the ball. It's a fallacy that the jets have a terrible oline. Hey if you want to build a super line like dallas did by all means but this draft simply doesn't have top end at 6 prospects. If have noticed I have been all over Cam Erving since draft talk started. Would be happy to get him in the 2nd, not sure he is going to be there. I simply think taking brandon scherff at 6 this year with guys like cooper, white, 2 or 3 passs rushers would be stupid as can be. You do realize that over the past 5 yrs the Jets have been one of the worst 3rd and short running teams in the league right ? How many times have this Jet team tried to convert a 3rd and short rushing and had to punt or worst turned the ball over after going for it on 4th down and failing. ? Everyone in the league knows that when the Jets need a yard they're going to run to the right side and it doesn't work. Our OL is solid, but far from good. Fact is it flat out sucks, just good enough to lose with . By the way, I happen to believe that the Pass Rushers in this draft rate higher than the OLmen. The thing I look at is who would best help this team going forward and in 2015. I say Pass rusher . Wr is not an option IMO . Not in the 1st round . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Jets fans are kidding themselves if they think we have an average O-line right now. "Good enough" - give me a f_cking break. Did you guys watch the Bills steamroll our pathetic O-line last season? And now Suh is in the division you guys want to waste the 6th pick on the next Melvin Ingram? GTFO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Jets fans are kidding themselves if they think we have an average O-line right now. "Good enough" - give me a f_cking break. Did you guys watch the Bills steamroll our pathetic O-line last season? And now Suh is in the division you guys want to waste the 6th pick on the next Melvin Ingram? GTFO I think they should draft larry allen or jonathan ogden did I win ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Are you seriously using the Giants as a model of quality offensive lines? The Giants have drafted pass rusher after pass rusher and db after db. Their line has generally sucked and who the **** did they ever draft? Will Beatty? Or are you talking about that big investment in Brewer in the 4th? They have not drafted an offensive lineman in the first round since Luke Pettigout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 You do realize that over the past 5 yrs the Jets have been one of the worst 3rd and short running teams in the league right ? How many times have this Jet team tried to convert a 3rd and short rushing and had to punt or worst turned the ball over after going for it on 4th down and failing. ? Everyone in the league knows that when the Jets need a yard they're going to run to the right side and it doesn't work. Our OL is solid, but far from good. Fact is it flat out sucks, just good enough to lose with . By the way, I happen to believe that the Pass Rushers in this draft rate higher than the OLmen. The thing I look at is who would best help this team going forward and in 2015. I say Pass rusher . Wr is not an option IMO . Not in the 1st round . I didn't realize that. I believe the reason that I did not realize it is because it is patently false. Where did you get that? Is there some statistic? Cause the only stat I remember had Ivory third in the league in 3rd and short conversions behind only Lynch and Cam Newton. Tied with Le'Veon Bell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinstar Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I didn't realize that. I believe the reason that I did not realize it is because it is patently false. Where did you get that? Is there some statistic? Cause the only stat I remember had Ivory third in the league in 3rd and short conversions behind only Lynch and Cam Newton. Tied with Le'Veon Bell. you're right, our OL is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 you're right, our OL is fine. Show me where I said that? Keep spouting nonsense. Nobody will call you on it. Maybe some of the others will start to quote your false or nonexistent statistics. Enjoy. Truth. http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Rushing&range=NFL&rank=016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Come on man . Everyone knows that the SEC leader in sacks this season sat behind the SEC leader in sacks last season. Shane ray produced in limited playing time before this year and when he got the full time gig, he blew up. I understand you like Dupree and that's fin e, but when I watch him play I see Bryan Thomas with all the athletic ability in the world, but always a step late to amassed those big sack totals. I came to love the way Thomas played the OLBer position because he could set the edge against the run like a true warrior and was still capable of being in the right place in zone coverage. I want someone who will be get the sack, not the pressure,and with that 1st step, Shane Ray to me is that player. 1 - The fact that this guy was a reserve as a sophomore despite being a monster pass rusher doesn't make you pause even a little? 2 - Ray is hardly the first guy to have a good year in college. Guys like Gholston and Maybin flew up on their one standout college seasons and maybe a 40 time. It's not so much about liking Dupree, that assumes a bias beforehand, as an informed pick. In my earliest looks at this draft, Ray was my favorite player and someone I thought might end up the best DE/OLB prospect in the draft. After another strong season, a strong senior bowl, and then a historic combine - Dupree blows him out of the water and is, knowing what we know about him as well as past drafted pass rushers, by far the best bet to come up with an elite pass rusher in this draft. There's no nuance at all to Ray...He didn't start until he was a junior, he did very little beyond rushing the passer, he's undersized unless he's a 4-3 OLB (he's not), he's not an explosive athlete, he's not someone you want to put into space...Leading the SEC in sacks is an accomplishment, sure, but it really doesn't mean much for the top of the draft's purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 gato, villian..... which of these guys is the best natural linebacker that can cover and play the run ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 gato, villian..... which of these guys is the best natural linebacker that can cover and play the run ? Dupree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cant wait Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Dupree I think orakpo is a good comp for dupree. I think beasley is the only other guy who fits as a 3-4 OLB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Dupree is he worth the #6 pick ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prime21 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 is he worth the #6 pick ? He's not but in a couple of years we may say he should have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 He's not but in a couple of years we may say he should have been. darn it !!! so beasley ray and fowler, who is the best true linebacker who won't be learning how to cover because he was a DE in college ? I hate when they do that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 darn it !!! so beasley ray and fowler, who is the best true linebacker who won't be learning how to cover because he was a DE in college ? I hate when they do that Beasley, no contest, between those three. To answer the Dupree question - yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I didn't realize that. I believe the reason that I did not realize it is because it is patently false. Where did you get that? Is there some statistic? Cause the only stat I remember had Ivory third in the league in 3rd and short conversions behind only Lynch and Cam Newton. Tied with Le'Veon Bell. It's all about pass protection and our O-line sucks at it. Seeing Mike Vick get sandwiched multiple times by Jerry Hughes and Mario not enough for ya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggin94it Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Are you seriously using the Giants as a model of quality offensive lines? The Giants have drafted pass rusher after pass rusher and db after db. Their line has generally sucked and who the **** did they ever draft? Will Beatty? Or are you talking about that big investment in Brewer in the 4th? They have not drafted an offensive lineman in the first round since Luke Pettigout. Justin Pugh says hello Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Justin Pugh says hello Fair enough, and Richburg in the second last year. My point stands though. When you are talking about emulating the Giants success you are not talking Oline. How many games have the Giants won since they drafted Pugh? They certainly have not sniffed the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 The giants 2011 o-line is like the new Trent Dilfer bs argument. "You don't need a good qb Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl." I think I'm gonna puke next year watching Fitz/Geno run for their lives while one of those Olb's people are raving about get 2 sacks the entire season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 The giants 2011 o-line is like the new Trent Dilfer bs argument. "You don't need a good qb Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl." I think I'm gonna puke next year watching Fitz/Geno run for their lives while one of those Olb's people are raving about get 2 sacks the entire season. I am not making the argument that we should ignore the offensive line because the Giants got away with it. Somebody else made the argument that we should emphasize pass rush and O line like the Giants. The Giants have emphasized pass rush. They have not emphasized O line and have not had success when they did. Oh, and watching Vick get crushed was a highlight of last season. **** him. He is a piece of sh*t and couldn't even bother to be prepared to play. I'm glad he got racked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinstar Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I am not making the argument that we should ignore the offensive line because the Giants got away with hit. Somebody else made the argument that we should emphasize pass rush and O line like the Giants. The Giants have emphasized pass rush. They have not emphasized O line and have not had success when they did. Oh, and watching Vick get crushed was a highlight of last season. **** him. He is a piece of sh*t and couldn't even bother to be prepared to play. I'm glad he got racked up. It is a well know fact in NFL circles that the Giants drafts always favor building the trenches over any other positions. The fact that the players they choose don't always pan out doesn't negate that fact. The Steelers always draft players that fix the schemes they run. With the departure of Lebeau, it will be interesting to see if Tomlin starts drafting defensive players who fit the cover 2 defense that he ran before becoming HC of the steelers. What would you say is the Jets draft style ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorge o8 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Our O-line sucks. Big mistake if we neglect it in the draft.I guess we can agree to disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradis Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Humor people, will ya? Watch these two tapes, and share your thoughts. Be as macro-level as you can... and this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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