Timeline to the Tank; How did Maccagnan and Company get Here?

[dbatesman]

57 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Dbatesman is #actually BrandonLlyodIsThaFuture

It me, Teh Falcon

[Cyberjet]

Great article. You do a really good job of laying out  Macs obstacles and his progession to rectify the problems with clarity. It is tiresome reading some these sarcastic pessimists on this sight. Part of the territory.  Looking forward to the season. 

[AFJF]

1 hour ago, Cyberjet said:

Great article. You do a really good job of laying out  Macs obstacles and his progession to rectify the problems with clarity. It is tiresome reading some these sarcastic pessimists on this sight. Part of the territory.  Looking forward to the season. 

Much appreciated.  It's pretty easy to look at how things are right now at this very second and say "OMG It's all so terrible and sucky", but there are a good number of folks who enjoy the big picture.

The here and now definitely feeds in to some of our more miserable members, but for those of us who genuinely want to talk football and discuss a step by step as to how the Jets got where they are, I figured this could be useful.

Mac isn't perfect, but he's a millilon times better than Idzik.

As stated above, his year two draft class could produce up to five legit NFL starters.  If they fall short and produce three starters and a backup or two...I'll take it.

[T0mShane]

4 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Much appreciated.  It's pretty easy to look at how things are right now at this very second and say "OMG It's all so terrible and sucky", but there are a good number of folks who enjoy the big picture.

The here and now definitely feeds in to some of our more miserable members, but for those of us who genuinely want to talk football and discuss a step by step as to how the Jets got where they are, I figured this could be useful.

Mac isn't perfect, but he's a millilon times better than Idzik.

As stated above, his year two draft class could produce up to five legit NFL starters.  If they fall short and produce three starters and a backup or two...I'll take it.

You realize that you just expressly stated that "genuinely talk[ing] football" requires one to apply magical realism to the "here and now." 

[AFJF]

Just now, T0mShane said:

You realize that you just expressly stated that "genuinely talk[ing] football" requires one to apply magical realism to the "here and now." 

You realize that because of the greatness you once brought to JI and here, I can never dislike you as a poster no matter how many football related threads you try to derail in an effort to re-write the John Idzik years and sh*t on a GM who has drafted football players who may actually be good enough to play in the NFL?  So carry on TS...you're the man.

Your minions on the other hand....not so much.

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, AFJF said:

You realize that because of the greatness you once brought to JI and here, I can never dislike you as a poster no matter how many football related threads you try to derail in an effort to re-write the John Idzik years and sh*t on a GM who has drafted football players who may actually be good enough to play in the NFL?  So carry on TS...you're the man.

Your minions on the other hand....not so much.

I only defend Idzik when SOME POSTERS evoke Idzik as an all-encompassing defense of the many failings of Mike Maccagnan and Rex Ryan. It's my belief that it's impossible to continue to support Maccagnan and Ryan without pointing to Idzik, because they're both objectively and independently bad. I am an arbiter of truth and objectivity.

 

And I don't have minions. We all consider ourselves dashing, faux-intellectual rogues.

[AFJF]

6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I only defend Idzik when SOME POSTERS evoke Idzik as an all-encompassing defense of the many failings of Mike Maccagnan and Rex Ryan. It's my belief that it's impossible to continue to support Maccagnan and Ryan without pointing to Idzik, because they're both objectively and independently bad. I am an arbiter of truth and objectivity.

 

And I don't have minions. We all consider ourselves dashing, faux-intellectual rogues.

Cream of the crop message board posters have minions and don't even realize it.  You may not, but the rest of us do.

Mac is entering year three.  Critical for him and his draft picks.

[T0mShane]

5 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Cream of the crop message board posters have minions and don't even realize it.  You may not, but the rest of us do.

Mac is entering year three.  Critical for him and his draft picks.

I threw you some red meat on Rex and you completely left it on the table. England has made you SOFT, Glenn!

[j4jets]

Timeline to tank:

Signing Mac N Cheese Bowles as GM n HC. 

[AFJF]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I threw you some red meat on Rex and you completely left it on the table. England has made you SOFT, Glenn!

If you ever come over the pond, please allow me to host you for some tea and crumpets.

[AFJF]

Come to think of it...@T0mshane is kinda like Sully.

JN:  Tom, how do you feel about being one of the best posters in message board history?

TS: I was just doing what any poster would do if they were in my shoes.

[thadude]

9 hours ago, j4jets said:

Timeline to tank:

Signing Mac N Cheese Bowles as GM n HC. 

[thadude]

On 7/15/2017 at 9:04 AM, LIJetsFan said:

My memory of it is not all that sharp so I'll take your word for it.  All the more inexplicable now!  Bowles, geesh!

Todd Bowles:

[j4jets]

On 7/14/2017 at 10:06 AM, dbatesman said:

Leonard Williams was Maccagnan's idea, but Woody is responsible for Revis, Marcus Gilchrist, and uhh Devin Smith

Umm, what? 

Woody: Mac, I want to sell gazillion PSLs. What better way than to sign Gilchrist and draft Leonard? Do it! 

[j4jets]

Funny how Mac is a really good GM, yet he just got done assembling the worst roster in the NFL after 3 off seasons. I swear you just can't make this sh*t up. Only a miracle can save him and that miracle is Hackensh!t. 

[jamesr]

On 15/07/2017 at 4:28 PM, long suffering jets fan said:

Awesome article!  Get the facts out there as they are and let people make up their mind.  Only the Jets can have so many twists and turns which are all to often forgotten in favor of selective recall to supports the specific posters bias.  Crazy how many things we've been through in just a few years:

• Idzik completely tanking the draft leading to Rex and his firing.
• Geno getting punched out leading to Fitz starting
• Team veterans showing their age and total lack of competitive spirit in 2016.

Let's hope we have some pleasant surprises for a change this year.

 

Sept 2017 - Hack gets eaten by a shark while retrieving his first pass that DID manage to hit the ocean!  

[rangerous]

On 7/14/2017 at 10:12 AM, JiF said:

A beautifully detailed time line all just to say, thanks Idzick.  

tanny had a huge share too.  mac?  well he made a splash when hired apparently at the request of the owner and it almost worked for a season.  last season things imploded largely because of fitz's holdout and the factions that developed within the team.  a lot of those whiners are gone so we can only hope that bowles will be able to get a bunch of younger players on the same page early.  and, really, who thought it would be different?  in hindsight, revis was getting old, marshall has never been one to keep his mouth shut, shelly has always said way too much and geno was just another punk.  so much for the vets teaching the young players how to win.  we'll all be able to gage how well bowles is as a coach this season.

[rangerous]

On 7/16/2017 at 0:03 PM, AFJF said:

Much appreciated.  It's pretty easy to look at how things are right now at this very second and say "OMG It's all so terrible and sucky", but there are a good number of folks who enjoy the big picture.

The here and now definitely feeds in to some of our more miserable members, but for those of us who genuinely want to talk football and discuss a step by step as to how the Jets got where they are, I figured this could be useful.

Mac isn't perfect, but he's a millilon times better than Idzik.

As stated above, his year two draft class could produce up to five legit NFL starters.  If they fall short and produce three starters and a backup or two...I'll take it.

right, and that's the huge difference between idzik and mac.  and as much as people want to rail about devon smith, some guys are just snakebit.  whatever talent he had is nerly spent with 3 injuries in two years.  you can't say the same about milliner because he was injured quite a bit in college.  imo we have to give mac and bowles some leeway this season.  when hack and the rest of this team lights it up, i hope people are willing to say how wrong they were.  

[AFJF]

1 minute ago, rangerous said:

right, and that's the huge difference between idzik and mac.  and as much as people want to rail about devon smith, some guys are just snakebit.  whatever talent he had is nerly spent with 3 injuries in two years.  you can't say the same about milliner because he was injured quite a bit in college.  imo we have to give mac and bowles some leeway this season.  when hack and the rest of this team lights it up, i hope people are willing to say how wrong they were.  

It defense of Idzik, Milliner was dinged up in college but I don't know that he ever missed more than a game or two.  It was a lot of minor stuff that I couldn't fault a GM for ignoring if the player was an elite talent.  Milliner flashed, and honestly I'm shocked that nobody has given him a look since being let go.

Devin Smith...as you said, just snakebit.  Can't see him ever becoming anything after all of these major injuries.

If Hack lights it up this season, or even just looks competent and shows improvement, I don't think we'll have more than two or three detractors finding reasons to rip him.  Most fans are pulling for the guy.

[JustInFudge]

On 7/16/2017 at 0:03 PM, AFJF said:

Much appreciated.  It's pretty easy to look at how things are right now at this very second and say "OMG It's all so terrible and sucky", but there are a good number of folks who enjoy the big picture.

The here and now definitely feeds in to some of our more miserable members, but for those of us who genuinely want to talk football and discuss a step by step as to how the Jets got where they are, I figured this could be useful.

Mac isn't perfect, but he's a millilon times better than Idzik.

As stated above, his year two draft class could produce up to five legit NFL starters.  If they fall short and produce three starters and a backup or two...I'll take it.

Curious which 5 you're pointing at here?  That and should we be celebrating getting the starting nod on the worst roster in the NFL?  Would these guys start any where else? 

 

[AFJF]

3 minutes ago, JiF said:

Curious which 5 you're pointing at here?  That and should we be celebrating getting the starting nod on the worst roster in the NFL?  Would these guys start any where else? 

 

Something tells me there's nothing any player acquired by Mac can do that would get you to celebrate...lol

[JustInFudge]

4 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Something tells me there's nothing any player acquired by Mac can do that would get you to celebrate...lol

Once again, this couldnt be further from the truth. I'm trying to have a conversation with you about Football.  Something you complain doesnt happen enough here and this is your response?  You're trying very hard to paint me as this Mac hater extraordinaire, to the point where you dont even respond to me and make it about something else while taking these little jabs.  This is a case in point.  For some reason you struggle having conversations with people who disagree with your (see Fitz) stance on the team.  

Do I think Mac is good at his job?  No.  I dont.  But I'll give him credit where credit is due and I have his entire tenure; Leo is great, I damn near did back flips when we took him. Although he would not have been my choice, I have a lot of faith in Adams and completely understand the pick.  While he wouldnt have been my selection, I think Marcus Maye breaks the 2nd round bust curse we've had since David Harris.  Robbie Anderson could be a nice little UDFA find. I think ASJ could be a diamond in the rough.  I was fond of Jordan Leggett pre draft.  If used properly, I think Maudlin could be a good player.  I'm hopeful Brandon Shell continues the promise he showed last season.  While I think Christian Hackenberg in the 2nd is one of the most moronic picks I've ever seen made, I get liking him as a prospect based on his history as a prospect.  

So if you're done with responding to me with jabs every time I respond to you, do you want to talk Football now?   I'm looking at this draft you're referring to and I dont see the 5 "legit" NFL starters you're referring to.  I see guys who could start on the talent depraved Jets but I dont think that's saying much, hence the question I asked you.    

 

[AFJF]

Just now, JiF said:

Once again, this couldnt be further from the truth. I'm trying to have a conversation with you about Football.  Something you complain doesnt happen enough here and this is your response?  You're trying very hard to paint me as this Mac hater extraordinaire, to the point where you dont even respond to me and make it about something else while taking these little jabs.  This is a case in point.  For some reason you struggle having conversations with people who disagree with your (see Fitz) stance on the team.  

Do I think Mac is good at his job?  No.  I dont.  But I'll give him credit where credit is due and I have his entire tenure; Leo is great, I damn near did back flips when we took him. Although he would not have been my choice, I have a lot of faith in Adams and completely understand the pick.  While he wouldnt have been my selection, I think Marcus Maye breaks the 2nd round bust curse we've had since David Harris.  Robbie Anderson could be a nice little UDFA find. I think ASJ could be a diamond in the rough.  I was fond of Jordan Leggett pre draft.  If used properly, I think Maudlin could be a good player.  I'm hopeful Brandon Shell continues the promise he showed last season.  While I think Christian Hackenberg in the 2nd is one of the most moronic picks I've ever seen made, I get liking him as a prospect based on his history as a prospect.  

So if you're done with responding to me with jabs every time I respond to you, do you want to talk Football now?   I'm looking at this draft you're referring to and I dont see the 5 "legit" NFL starters you're referring to.  I see guys who could start on the talent depraved Jets but I dont think that's saying much, hence the question I asked you.    

 

They're not jabs.  I think you follow this team closely enough to know which five players I'm talking about and why.

In the event you don't know who I'm talking about and why, I'll name them for you.

1) Darron Lee

2) Jordan Jenkins

3) Juston Burris

4) Brandon Shell

5) Charone Peake

The first four have shown that they have the ability to be players in the NFL.  Should they continue to improve as they did late last season, there is a very real chance that they will be legit NFL starters.

As far as Peake goes, I'm admittedly going off of what I saw from him in training camp, his freakish size/speed ratio, and recent articles from Cimini and Costello saying they expect him to start or at least see significant reps.  (Does the "starter" label even matter nowadays for WR"s when so many teams use 4-5 at a time?)

[JustInFudge]

6 minutes ago, AFJF said:

They're not jabs.  I think you follow this team closely enough to know which five players I'm talking about and why.

In the event you don't know who I'm talking about and why, I'll name them for you.

1) Darron Lee

2) Jordan Jenkins

3) Juston Burris

4) Brandon Shell

5) Charone Peake

The first four have shown that they have the ability to be players in the NFL.  Should they continue to improve as they did late last season, there is a very real chance that they will be legit NFL starters.

As far as Peake goes, I'm admittedly going off of what I saw from him in training camp, his freakish size/speed ratio, and recent articles from Cimini and Costello saying they expect him to start or at least see significant reps.  (Does the "starter" label even matter nowadays for WR"s when so many teams use 4-5 at a time?)

Oh, they're jabs.  If they werent, this would have been your first response instead the same similar sh*t you've responded with to me recently.  But whatevs. 

Not sure how I was supposed to know who of the 7 you were referring to.  Lac Edwards technically could be the most sure shot starter and so could Hack if you're the super optimistic kind, which you tend to be.

Lee - I have very little faith he'll be anything more than average in this league.  Would he start anywhere else?  Doubt it.  Sure, he starts here next season by just draft status alone.

Jenkins - is a JAG in every sense of the word.  Would he start anywhere else?  Doubt it.

Burris - showed some signs last season that he could be o.k.  Who knows?  He sure didnt do anything that is giving me confidence he's a starter in this league.

Shell - probably the only one of the group I have high hopes for and could probably catch on somewhere else as well.

Peake - I mean, like you said, this is just wishful thinking.  And yes, even harder to classify as a "starter" based on the position.  That said, I guess he has a shot behind Q and Anderson to compete with the rookies and Marshall for that 3rd WR position.  I'll say I'm much higher on the rookies and Marshall than I am him but who knows.  Pure speculation at this point. 

 

[#27TheDominator]

You were talking about the 2016 draft?  I honestly wasn't sure there were 5 legit starters in 2015-2016 which is what I thought you meant.  Williams, Lee and Jenkins should start. I have hope for Lee because he is a freakish athlete.  Jenkins is solid if uninspiring.  I figured the other two were Shell and Burris, neither of whom has demonstrated themselves as a legit starter even on a sh*tty team. Maybe Deion Simon, but since he was waived and on the practice squad I'm not sure how great that looks.

Peake?  The team cut their two top WRs and he still isn't slated to start.  Has he really looked that good in camp?   I guess there is still hope for Mauldin, but it has to be wearing a bit thin.

I have also gotten lumped in the Maccagnan hater camp at this point.  I don't hate him, but I'm not in love with what I am seeing.  I think he may be trying to get cute which IMO is what really cemented Idzik's fate, screwing around with a WR heavy draft.  

[AFJF]

22 minutes ago, JiF said:

Oh, they're jabs.  If they werent, this would have been your first response instead the same similar sh*t you've responded with to me recently.  But whatevs. 

Not sure how I was supposed to know who of the 7 you were referring to.  Lac Edwards technically could be the most sure shot starter and so could Hack if you're the super optimistic kind, which you tend to be.

Lee - I have very little faith he'll be anything more than average in this league.  Would he start anywhere else?  Doubt it.  Sure, he starts here next season by just draft status alone.

Jenkins - is a JAG in every sense of the word.  Would he start anywhere else?  Doubt it.

Burris - showed some signs last season that he could be o.k.  Who knows?  He sure didnt do anything that is giving me confidence he's a starter in this league.

Shell - probably the only one of the group I have high hopes for and could probably catch on somewhere else as well.

Peake - I mean, like you said, this is just wishful thinking.  And yes, even harder to classify as a "starter" based on the position.  That said, I guess he has a shot behind Q and Anderson to compete with the rookies and Marshall for that 3rd WR position.  I'll say I'm much higher on the rookies and Marshall than I am him but who knows.  Pure speculation at this point. 

 

It's all pure speculation at this point.  

I'm speculating that they could be solid NFL players, you're speculating they will not.

Now we can watch the next season or two unfold and see how it goes.

[JustInFudge]

5 minutes ago, AFJF said:

It's all pure speculation at this point.  

I'm speculating that they could be solid NFL players, you're speculating they will not.

Now we can watch the next season or two unfold and see how it goes.

Once again, not what happened...but carry on, this is getting cute.

[whodeawhodat]

On 7/16/2017 at 0:23 PM, T0mShane said:

I only defend Idzik when SOME POSTERS evoke Idzik as an all-encompassing defense of the many failings of Mike Maccagnan and Rex Ryan. It's my belief that it's impossible to continue to support Maccagnan and Ryan without pointing to Idzik, because they're both objectively and independently bad. I am an arbiter of truth and objectivity.

 

And I don't have minions. We all consider ourselves dashing, faux-intellectual rogues.

the ilk has been replaced by the collective

[The Crusher]

57 minutes ago, JiF said:

Once again, this couldnt be further from the truth. I'm trying to have a conversation with you about Football.  Something you complain doesnt happen enough here and this is your response?  You're trying very hard to paint me as this Mac hater extraordinaire, to the point where you dont even respond to me and make it about something else while taking these little jabs.  This is a case in point.  For some reason you struggle having conversations with people who disagree with your (see Fitz) stance on the team.  

Do I think Mac is good at his job?  No.  I dont.  But I'll give him credit where credit is due and I have his entire tenure; Leo is great, I damn near did back flips when we took him. Although he would not have been my choice, I have a lot of faith in Adams and completely understand the pick.  While he wouldnt have been my selection, I think Marcus Maye breaks the 2nd round bust curse we've had since David Harris.  Robbie Anderson could be a nice little UDFA find. I think ASJ could be a diamond in the rough.  I was fond of Jordan Leggett pre draft.  If used properly, I think Maudlin could be a good player.  I'm hopeful Brandon Shell continues the promise he showed last season.  While I think Christian Hackenberg in the 2nd is one of the most moronic picks I've ever seen made, I get liking him as a prospect based on his history as a prospect.  

So if you're done with responding to me with jabs every time I respond to you, do you want to talk Football now?   I'm looking at this draft you're referring to and I dont see the 5 "legit" NFL starters you're referring to.  I see guys who could start on the talent depraved Jets but I dont think that's saying much, hence the question I asked you.    

 

Meh, Mac sucks 

[AFJF]

4 minutes ago, JiF said:

Once again, not what happened...but carry on, this is getting cute.

Sorry, you're speculating that Lee wouldn't start anywhere else, Jenkins wouldn't start anywhere else, Burris probably wouldn't start anywhere else, Shell might be good enough to be on a team somewhere, and you guess Peake might have a shot.

I apologize for suggesting you didn't have faith in them.

 

[JustInFudge]

21 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Sorry, you're speculating that Lee wouldn't start anywhere else, Jenkins wouldn't start anywhere else, Burris probably wouldn't start anywhere else, Shell might be good enough to be on a team somewhere, and you guess Peake might have a shot.

I apologize for suggesting you didn't have faith in them.

 

Exactly, I said a few might and gave my take.  So once again, you misquoted me and misrepresented my entire position and tried to paint me as something I'm not but it's cool brah, you just want to talk football. 

[AFJF]

2 minutes ago, JiF said:

Exactly, I said a few might and gave my take.  So once again, you misquoted me and misrepresented my entire position and tried to paint me as something I'm not but it's cool brah, you just want to talk football. 

I want to talk football with anyone w/o a bias.  Clearly you have one toward players acquired by Mac.

I get it.  We choose sides, we dig in, we don't want to budge.

Its cool.

[JustInFudge]

26 minutes ago, AFJF said:

I want to talk football with anyone w/o a bias.  Clearly you have one toward players acquired by Mac.

I get it.  We choose sides, we dig in, we don't want to budge.

Its cool.

I dont have a bias.  I call it like I see it.  I literally just gave you numerous examples of picks/players that he acquired that I like but you chose to ignore that and keep spewing this garbage. It's bizarre.  To say the least. 

And btw, this is incredibly ironic coming from you considering your antics last offseason. 

[T0mShane]

11 minutes ago, JiF said:

I dont have a bias.  I call it like I see it.  I literally just gave you numerous examples of picks/players that he acquired that I like but you chose to ignore that and keep spewing this garbage. It's bizarre.  To say the least. 

And btw, this is incredibly ironic coming from you considering your antics last offseason. 

In fairness to Glenn, the only way to make the positive case for Macc is to point to things other than Macc.

[AFJF]

9 minutes ago, JiF said:

I dont have a bias.  I call it like I see it.  I literally just gave you numerous examples of picks/players that he acquired that I like but you chose to ignore that and keep spewing this garbage. It's bizarre.  To say the least. 

And btw, this is incredibly ironic coming from you considering your antics last offseason. 

Sorry, I missed the multiple examples of picks/players that you like.  I was only looking at our conversation about the 5 players I brought up.  

Who were the picks you praised?