Jets - Giants Game Thread

[RSJ]

Yeah right.  Whatever.  May I suggest rooting for another team?  You sure don't seem to like or know anything about this one.

 

May I suggest Ritalin? or Anger Management? 

[Lizard King]

You said what I wrote was mostly untrue information. Please elaborate and give examples of how over 50% of what I said was untrue.

Leon Johnson? Leon Johnson was fine. He was also a backup player for his whole career. So as long as you bring up Leon Johnson, this year will tell which GM made better use of a 4th round pick on a RB in his first draft.

Problem is we could have come out of that draft with Peyton Manning. He told Archie he wasn't taking a QB, even his son (despite this supposedly-awful QB situation he was walking into), and Manning stayed in Tennessee for another year. Then we're looking at Orlando Pace. We pass up on him and trade down. Now we're looking at Walter Jones. He passes up on HIM and trades down yet again. Picks James Farrior who he played for 1 year, somewhat out of position outside in a 3-4, and then benched. Never looked into moving his #8 overall draft pick inside, where he would later become a star player, even when Marvin Jones went out for the year.

He stepped in sh*t with Ray Lucas being able to fake his way through 2/3 of one season. Otherwise that 8-8 record, with an otherwise championship team, would have looked more like the 2012 Jets record or worse with Mirer going the rest of the way. Hell, even Tuna didn't give Lucas a try until he was convinced the season was over so what the hell he always liked the kid. If he actually knew, then Lucas would have been in there the whole time instead of watching the season go down the tubes with his hand-picked #2 QB Mirer.

The main point is Tuna was vastly overrated as a GM. Idzik may prove to be 10x worse than Tannenbaum. But by comparing him to Parcells, who came into a MUCH better situation and was a disaster on draft day until the 1 year he piled up 4 first round picks, you are actually setting the bar kind of low.

The Manning point obviously makes a lot of sense. But I'm not sure I'd be using drafting Farrior or Leon to support that argument. I think Parcells is a weak scumbag who wasn't clever enough to stick around when things got a little hairy.

[T0mShane]

The Manning point obviously makes a lot of sense. But I'm not sure I'd be using drafting Farrior or Leon to support that argument. I think Parcells is a weak scumbag who wasn't clever enough to stick around when things got a little hairy.

Thank God he had Terry Bradway and Al Groh and Herm Edwards around to right the ship after he left.

[Larz]

LOL. You think Chris Ivory is good? Did you even watch the game last night. My point was, Parcells took a 1-15 team in a bad cap situation and they went 9-7, and that no one guts teams in the NFL with the cap, they can atleast get a few contributors for cheap. All of Idziks pick ups, with the exception of Sheldon Richardson look terrible. You can't totally strike out like this, even in your first year, with a bad cap situation.

 

 

bad cap situation, combined with the prestige of playing for a team lead by the toe sucker and the butt fumbler.  you do realize players have to want to come here, right ?

 

you don't see the trend in all the pick ups are local guys with family here or scrubs ? 

 

you really think that's because idzik sucks ?

 

he's cleaning up tannys mess with an eye to the future, and consistent talent.  he isn't going to screw the cap OVER PAYING for guys like jumbo and o'donnell.  he's going to build through the draft and sprinkle in FA's.  thats going to take 2-3 years

 

you must have loved that trade for holmes, and that extension, lol

 

lets revisit this after next years draft

[RSJ]

bad cap situation, combined with the prestige of playing for a team lead by the toe sucker and the butt fumbler.  you do realize players have to want to come here, right ?

 

you don't see the trend in all the pick ups are local guys with family here or scrubs ? 

 

you really think that's because idzik sucks ?

 

he's cleaning up tannys mess with an eye to the future, and consistent talent.  he isn't going to screw the cap OVER PAYING for guys like jumbo and o'donnell.  he's going to build through the draft and sprinkle in FA's.  thats going to take 2-3 years

 

you must have loved that trade for holmes, and that extension, lol

 

lets revisit this after next years draft

 

I agree. Lets revisit this one after next years draft. Hopefully I'm wrong and Idzik drafts better next year too.

[SayNoToDMC]

I woke up still hammered. I'm going to the gym with a friend to fake a workout so he'll drive me to brunch. I'll later reflect on the day and wonder how I got so drunk. Thanks Jets, great win

[Sperm Edwards]

LOL. You think Chris Ivory is good? Did you even watch the game last night. My point was, Parcells took a 1-15 team in a bad cap situation and they went 9-7, and that no one guts teams in the NFL with the cap, they can atleast get a few contributors for cheap. All of Idziks pick ups, with the exception of Sheldon Richardson look terrible. You can't totally strike out like this, even in your first year, with a bad cap situation.

 

I think it remains to be seen that Ivory is a worse use of a 4th round pick than Leon Johnson.  I think Geno Smith is better use of a 2nd round pick than Rick Terry.  I think Idzik did a better job with his first pick than Parcells did.  In particular since Parcells passed up on THREE hall of fame players, all of whom were OBVIOUS selections.  We ended up with Farrior (who he benched after 1 crappy rookie season) and Dedric Ward and 2 backups who were cut almost as fast as they were drafted.  Further, you're totally making up the fictitious idea that we traded down so we wouldn't have to pay the #1 pick as much as the #8 pick.

 

The 1997 Jets he took over were nowhere near the mess, in both cap and personnel, that the 2013 Jets were.  If they were he wouldn't have been able to spend massive undollars on the likes of Curtis Martin and Kevin Mawae, and you'd be able to come up with the names of some players he brought in to turn things around in 1997.

 

So what players did Parcells bring to the Jets in 1997 that were responsible for bringing the team from 1-15 to 9-7? Otis Smith and Lonnie Paleili?

 

You are looking at the overall record and drawing these incorrect conclusions based purely on that turnaround in record, and it's looking apparent that you don't know anything about the difference between the 1996 Jets and the 1997 Jets beyond the name Parcells.

 

 

I'm still waiting on the massive list of things in my http://forums.jetnation.com/public/style_images/master/snapback.png that you boasted most of which were incorrect.

[T0mShane]

I woke up still hammered. I'm going to the gym with a friend to fake a workout so he'll drive me to brunch. I'll later reflect on the day and wonder how I got so drunk. Thanks Jets, great win

I woke up this morning lying perpendicular at the foot of the bed and told myself I had to stop investing so much mental energy into this team that it makes me binge drink.

[RSJ]

I think it remains to be seen that Ivory is a worse use of a 4th round pick than Leon Johnson.  I think Geno Smith is better use of a 2nd round pick than Rick Terry.  I think Idzik did a better job with his first pick than Parcells did.  In particular since Parcells passed up on THREE hall of fame players, all of whom were OBVIOUS selections.  We ended up with Farrior (who he benched after 1 crappy rookie season) and Dedric Ward and 2 backups who were cut almost as fast as they were drafted.  Further, you're totally making up the fictitious idea that we traded down so we wouldn't have to pay the #1 pick as much as the #8 pick.

 

The 1997 Jets he took over were nowhere near the mess, in both cap and personnel, that the 2013 Jets were.  If they were he wouldn't have been able to spend massive undollars on the likes of Curtis Martin and Kevin Mawae, and you'd be able to come up with the names of some players he brought in to turn things around in 1997.

 

So what players did Parcells bring to the Jets in 1997 that were responsible for bringing the team from 1-15 to 9-7? Otis Smith and Lonnie Paleili?

 

You are looking at the overall record and drawing these incorrect conclusions based purely on that turnaround in record, and it's looking apparent that you don't know anything about the difference between the 1996 Jets and the 1997 Jets beyond the name Parcells.

 

 

I'm still waiting on the massive list of things in my http://forums.jetnation.com/public/style_images/master/snapback.png that you boasted most of which were incorrect.

 

Neil O'Donnell, Jeff Graham, just to name a few of the bad contracts Parcells inherited, it didnt prevent him from getting a few contributors the first season in the later rounds and free agency. After he cleared away the cap he then spent money in 1998. James Farrior ended up being a very good football player. Dedric Ward is better then anyone Idzik picked after Geno Smith, ditto Leon Johnson. Idzik probably spent more money then Parcells did in his first season.

 

Could you just do me a favor? Could you name one guy besides Sheldon Richardson (who he traded Revis for) that will make a big impact on the team this year?

[RSJ]

I woke up this morning lying perpendicular at the foot of the bed and told myself I had to stop investing so much mental energy into this team that it makes me binge drink.

 

Ever step away from the computer and ask yourself if you really just debated Bill Parcells body of work verse John Idziks? lol

[Sperm Edwards]

The Manning point obviously makes a lot of sense. But I'm not sure I'd be using drafting Farrior or Leon to support that argument. I think Parcells is a weak scumbag who wasn't clever enough to stick around when things got a little hairy.

 

I used Farrior because we didn't start out with the #8 pick.  We had the #1 pick.  It was as a GM, not as a coach, that Parcells passed up on three blue-chip prospects that turned into (future) HOFers, to trade down to get Farrior.   Further, he got the worst trade value in the history of the draft value chart (well established by 1997) for moving down in both instances.  Teams get future first rounders and more dropping from #1 to #3 or 4.  Parcells I think got a 3rd rounder and a 6th rounder to move down to #6 and maybe another 6th rounder or so moving down from #6 to #8.  It was bad GM'ing by Mike Tannenbaum standards. Worse still, if looked through the prism of August 1997 (or even December 1997, for that matter), Farrior was a blunder of a draft pick.  Meanwhile that is the prism being used for guys who are rookies that Idzik drafted, or a couple of players he traded for.  

 

Leon Johnson was brought up by RSJ, not me, as though it were some crowning achievement of drafting prowess.  I liked Leon and he was a solid backup for a few years.  But he was no great draft pick by any stretch.  And years of hindsight where the guy was used as a backup is being weighed against a dozen pre-season carries and it is determined that the latter is proof positive of a horrible move.  In time, Ivory may show to be a terrible, terrible acquisition.  But basing it on 2 pre-season games where he's had limited action in each? Lol.  Why is it I think no other "good" GMs' picks' first 20 touches of pre-season are scrutinized in this way? Leon started out averaging 3 yards per carry his first dozen carries (in garbage time against Seattle's crappy backups, after Murrell ran all over the starters and then came out).  Somehow I doubt in 1997 this was used as proof-positive that Johnson was a superb or terrible draft pick.

[Sperm Edwards]

Neil O'Donnell, Jeff Graham, just to name a few of the bad contracts Parcells inherited, it didnt prevent him from getting a few contributors the first season in the later rounds and free agency. After he cleared away the cap he then spent money in 1998. James Farrior ended up being a very good football player. Dedric Ward is better then anyone Idzik picked after Geno Smith, ditto Leon Johnson. Idzik probably spent more money then Parcells did in his first season.

 

Could you just do me a favor? Could you name one guy besides Sheldon Richardson (who he traded Revis for) that will make a big impact on the team this year?

 

For the love of God, NAME THEM.  NAME the players that you claim GM Parcells added, in 1997, that made a 1-15 team into a 9-7 team.  YOU are the one who asserted that Parcells did a much better job of GM'ing in 1997.  So back it up.

 

It is plain as day that you keep avoiding answering that question, as well as avoiding my question that you boasted about, which is that most of what I said was incorrect in the above post.  

 

It is therefore my interpretation that you know you were dead wrong on all fronts, and are now hiding from it by desperately trying to change the subject.  

 

 

Ever step away from the computer and ask yourself if you really just debated Bill Parcells body of work verse John Idziks? lol

 

Except you didn't.  You debated the 1997 off-season acquisitions with me and lost. Badly.

[RSJ]

For the love of God, NAME THEM.  NAME the players that you claim GM Parcells added, in 1997, that made a 1-15 team into a 9-7 team.  YOU are the one who asserted that Parcells did a much better job of GM'ing in 1997.  So back it up.

 

It is plain as day that you keep avoiding answering that question, as well as avoiding my question that you boasted about, which is that most of what I said was incorrect in the above post.  

 

It is therefore my interpretation that you know you were dead wrong on all fronts, and are now hiding from it by desperately trying to change the subject.  

 

 

 

Except you didn't.  You debated the 1997 off-season with me and lost. Badly.

 

James Farrior

 

Leon Johnson

 

John Hall

 

Corwin Brown

 

Lorenzo Neal

 

Otis Smith (played for Kotite too I know)

 

Ray Lucas

 

Dedric Ward

 

All contributors to the 1997 clubs success. 

 

lol, And I'm still waiting on all of the contributors Idzik has added besides the draft pick he traded the Jets best player for, lol

[Sperm Edwards]

James Farrior

Leon Johnson

John Hall

Corwin Brown

Lorenzo Neal

Otis Smith (played for Kotite too I know)

Ray Lucas

Dedric Ward

All contributors to the 1997 clubs success.

lol, And I'm still waiting on all of the contributors Idzik has added besides the draft pick he traded the Jets best player for, lol

LOL. So you read that list and see 8 games worth of improvements?

Farrier was benched for the rest of Tuna's tenure here because of his play in 1997. He also f*cked the franchise out of a HOF QB even though, by your standard, he was saddled with Neil O'Donnell.

Lastly, you have not come up with 8 games' worth of roster improvements as you should have realized by hitting the submit post button. Those guys were all MINOR contributors in '97.

Dedric Ward caught 18 passes in a 16-game season. He was 4th on the depth chart behind Keyshawn and Graham and Chrebet. And you're listing him as a significant reason for an 8-game turnaround from 1 win to 9 wins.

Can you see where this is going? You just gave me a list of backups and special teams gunners, plus a rookie LB who played like a rookie and then got benched for the play he put forth as a rookie. And that guy was his hand-picked selection instead of a HOF QB or either of two HOF left tackles.

So in other words, you've got nothing.

The 1997 Jets improved because their PRE-Parcells draft picks and acquisitions played full seasons and/or improved significantly: O'Donnell, Mickens, Keyshawn, Graham, Chrebet, Glenn, Mo Lewis and Marvin Jones were forced to not be fat & lazy, Brady really came into his own as basically a 6th lineman, and the significant pieces of their OL had another year of playing together under their belts. And there was that other thing. The coaching staff of Kotite and his ship of fools was replaced by Parcells and Belichick and 3 other future head coaches who knew what they were doing in practices and in games.

But purely from the standpoint of GM'ing in 1997? Parcells did a sh*tty job. His draft was a blunder of poor judgment plus letting other GMs get the better of him and rip us off.

As far as Idzik, I outlined a lot that I liked "so far" in several posts. However by the end of this season and beyond we'll see if he's a good GM or a total dumbass. His off-season moves this year are better than the off-season moves Parcells made in 1997, though. I expect to see at least 3 starters out of this draft class not even counting Geno Smith or Ivory.

[JoeKlecko]

Neil O'Donnell, Jeff Graham, just to name a few of the bad contracts Parcells inherited, it didnt prevent him from getting a few contributors the first season in the later rounds and free agency. After he cleared away the cap he then spent money in 1998. James Farrior ended up being a very good football player. Dedric Ward is better then anyone Idzik picked after Geno Smith, ditto Leon Johnson. Idzik probably spent more money then Parcells did in his first season.

 

Could you just do me a favor? Could you name one guy besides Sheldon Richardson (who he traded Revis for) that will make a big impact on the team this year?

 

Dude, that shows your lack of understanding of the purpose of the draft.  Yes, first round picks should make an immediate impact on the team in their rookie season, so should second round picks.  After that, not necessarily.  The draft isn't just for filling immediate needs, but for the long term depth and needs of the team.  Winters will probably be starting at OG at some point this season and if he's as good as advertised, should make an impact.  Even if Colon stays healthy and Vlad starts and plays well, Winters will probably take over at one of the OG spots next year and stay there for 10 years. Fifth-seventh round picks rarely make any impact on a team, much less an immediately impact.  That's just ridiculous.

 

Also with regard to your conversation with Sperm regarding Parcells, you're flat out wrong.  Parcells didn't inherit a team in bad cap shape, but he left it in bad cap shape because he brought in older, more expensive vets in order to "win now" rather than building through the draft.  Parcells was as bad a GM as the Jets ever had.  Idik may have screwed the pooch with Garrard, but at least he brought in a vet who was a quality starter in his career and drafted a great QB prospect.  Parcells was so egomaniacal that he didn't even sign or draft a backup QB.  That's a fireable offense, especially for a supposed Lombardi Tropy contender.  I think Richie Kotite may have done a better job with the draft than Parcells did.

[Larz]

U can easily argue colon and winslow will have bigger

Contributions

Lol rsj

[RSJ]

LOL. So you read that list and see 8 games worth of improvements?

Farrier was benched for the rest of Tuna's tenure here because of his play in 1997. He also f*cked the franchise out of a HOF QB even though, by your standard, he was saddled with Neil O'Donnell.

Lastly, you have not come up with 8 games' worth of roster improvements as you should have realized by hitting the submit post button. Those guys were all MINOR contributors in '97.

Dedric Ward caught 18 passes in a 16-game season. He was 4th on the depth chart behind Keyshawn and Graham and Chrebet. And you're listing him as a significant reason for an 8-game turnaround from 1 win to 9 wins.

Can you see where this is going? You just gave me a list of backups and special teams gunners, plus a rookie LB who played like a rookie and then got benched for the play he put forth as a rookie. And that guy was his hand-picked selection instead of a HOF QB or either of two HOF left tackles.

So in other words, you've got nothing.

The 1997 Jets improved because their PRE-Parcells draft picks and acquisitions played full seasons and/or improved significantly: O'Donnell, Mickens, Keyshawn, Graham, Chrebet, Glenn, Mo Lewis and Marvin Jones were forced to not be fat & lazy, Brady really came into his own as basically a 6th lineman, and the significant pieces of their OL had another year of playing together under their belts. And there was that other thing. The coaching staff of Kotite and his ship of fools was replaced by Parcells and Belichick and 3 other future head coaches who knew what they were doing in practices and in games.

But purely from the standpoint of GM'ing in 1997? Parcells did a sh*tty job. His draft was a blunder of poor judgment plus letting other GMs get the better of him and rip us off.

As far as Idzik, I outlined a lot that I liked "so far" in several posts. However by the end of this season and beyond we'll see if he's a good GM or a total dumbass. His off-season moves this year are better than the off-season moves Parcells made in 1997, though. I expect to see at least 3 starters out of this draft class not even counting Geno Smith or Ivory.

 

 

Here we go again with a novel of misinformation.

 

Minor contributors? Leon Returned multiple kicks for TD's in 1997. Will any of Idzik's guys do that? 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_New_York_Jets_season

 

A kick returner? a full back? a corner? MINOR contributors? You say this while defending a guy who couldnt bring in a SINGLE CONTRIBUTOR? Lorenzo Neal had more yards rushing then Idziks big signing Goodson will have and he was a damn fullack.

 

Still waiting for your big Idzik contributor list, btw.

[dbatesman]

A kick returner? a full back? a corner? MINOR contributors?

 

lol

[RSJ]

Dude, that shows your lack of understanding of the purpose of the draft.  Yes, first round picks should make an immediate impact on the team in their rookie season, so should second round picks.  After that, not necessarily.  The draft isn't just for filling immediate needs, but for the long term depth and needs of the team.  Winters will probably be starting at OG at some point this season and if he's as good as advertised, should make an impact.  Even if Colon stays healthy and Vlad starts and plays well, Winters will probably take over at one of the OG spots next year and stay there for 10 years. Fifth-seventh round picks rarely make any impact on a team, much less an immediately impact.  That's just ridiculous.

 

Also with regard to your conversation with Sperm regarding Parcells, you're flat out wrong.  Parcells didn't inherit a team in bad cap shape, but he left it in bad cap shape because he brought in older, more expensive vets in order to "win now" rather than building through the draft.  Parcells was as bad a GM as the Jets ever had.  Idik may have screwed the pooch with Garrard, but at least he brought in a vet who was a quality starter in his career and drafted a great QB prospect.  Parcells was so egomaniacal that he didn't even sign or draft a backup QB.  That's a fireable offense, especially for a supposed Lombardi Tropy contender.  I think Richie Kotite may have done a better job with the draft than Parcells did.

 

Parcells did inherit bad contracts. That is why he waited until 1998 to make big splashes in free agency. As far as the draft is concerned. The late round is where you find kick returners, nickelbacks, slot WR's, RB's, Idzik found NONE of those.

[Sperm Edwards]

Here we go again with a novel of misinformation.

 

Minor contributors? Leon Returned multiple kicks for TD's in 1997. Will any of Idzik's guys do that? 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_New_York_Jets_season

 

A kick returner? a full back? a corner? MINOR contributors? You say this while defending a guy who couldnt bring in a SINGLE CONTRIBUTOR? Lorenzo Neal had more yards rushing then Idziks big signing Goodson will have and he was a damn fullack.

 

Still waiting for your big Idzik contributor list, btw.

 

Yes, they were MINOR contributors.  The only starter he brought in was a so-so CB who we all feared when covering an actually decent receiver.  Lorenzo Neal was a great blocker at times, but he was not part of the base offense.  Parcells liked him so much he didn't keep him around a second year because he was too 1-dimensional and apparently wasn't worth the $700K.  

 

Parcells didn't bring in more guys his first year because, quite frankly, the team was in better shape than he realized.  It was an outright blunder to start out with the #1 pick in a great draft and come away with James Farrior (who he then had out of positions somewhat) and some backups.

 

If he wanted a DB maybe he should have used our 2nd round pick on Sam Madison instead of Rick Terry, our borderline 1st round pick (#31 overall) who never started a game for the Jets and was out of the league before Y2K.  Or just used our original 1st rounder on Springs.

 

I mean for someone who is critical of Geno Smith at #39 you're sure generous with giving Parcells a pass for one of the biggest blunders the team has ever had (considering Terry's draft slot).

 

Freaking Jason Taylor was written up in the local papers as a first round prospect.  He could have been ours in round 3.  But no, coach "I know better than everyone" moved from the top of round 3 to the bottom so we could instead have Dedric Ward and Chuck Clements or something.

 

The guy must have passed up on 5 Hall of Famers without cherry-picking random spots or unknowns in the draft.  Amazing how he "knew" Leon Johnson would return 2 kicks in a season once, but he didn't know that he was getting swindled out of pick value like he was repeatedly being sold bridges in Brooklyn.

 

I was a huge fan of Parcells when he was here, and will always be grateful he turned our perennial joke team around into one that no one wanted to face out of fear of getting stomped on.  But to say the instant turnaround of a whopping 8 games is because of his offseason acquisitions in 1997 is just absurd, and frankly, makes it seem like you didn't follow the team back then.  For every decent acquisition he made, he probably made 5 bad ones.  And even that doesn't tell the full story given that some of those bad ones were buttfumble-level bad because he and his massive ego wanted to show how much he knew more than the rest of the league.

 

As far as the Idzik list, I will give his guys more than 3 pre-season games. 

[JoeKlecko]

Parcells did inherit bad contracts. That is why he waited until 1998 to make big splashes in free agency. As far as the draft is concerned. The late round is where you find kick returners, nickelbacks, slot WR's, RB's, Idzik found NONE of those.

 

As has been stated on here numerous times, the Jets had so many needs that not all could be addressed in one year.  Idzik had a priority for fixing the OL and giving it some depth.  They had a number of good CBs already, so didn't need nickel backs.  He had signed two FA RBs  plus had 3 already, so why did he need to draft another?  He also had a slot WR in Kerley and KOR in McKnight and Gates.

[T0mShane]

LET'S KILL PARCELLS AGAIN TO MAKE OURSELVES FEEL BETTER ABOUT THE PRESENT AND OH BY THE WAY THOMAS JEFFERSON OWNED SLAVES AND UH MICKEY MANTLE WAS A DRINKER SO ALL OF THEIR ACCOMPLISHMENTS REALLY NEVER HAPPENED.

[Lizard King]

LET'S KILL PARCELLS AGAIN TO MAKE OURSELVES FEEL BETTER ABOUT THE PRESENT AND OH BY THE WAY THOMAS JEFFERSON OWNED SLAVES AND UH MICKEY MANTLE WAS A DRINKER SO ALL OF THEIR ACCOMPLISHMENTS REALLY NEVER HAPPENED.

Tannenbaum accomplished more with the Jets than Parcells did

[T0mShane]

Tannenbaum accomplished more with the Jets than Parcells did

Robert Horry won more NBA titles than Michael Jordan did.

[Lizard King]

Robert Horry won more NBA titles than Michael Jordan did.

That's a reach...What was Parcells' lasting effect that made Tanny's life easier? Bradway and some of his personnel?

[RSJ]

Yes, they were MINOR contributors.  The only starter he brought in was a so-so CB who we all feared when covering an actually decent receiver.  Lorenzo Neal was a great blocker at times, but he was not part of the base offense.  Parcells liked him so much he didn't keep him around a second year because he was too 1-dimensional and apparently wasn't worth the $700K.  

 

Parcells didn't bring in more guys his first year because, quite frankly, the team was in better shape than he realized.  It was an outright blunder to start out with the #1 pick in a great draft and come away with James Farrior (who he then had out of positions somewhat) and some backups.

 

If he wanted a DB maybe he should have used our 2nd round pick on Sam Madison instead of Rick Terry, our borderline 1st round pick (#31 overall) who never started a game for the Jets and was out of the league before Y2K.  Or just used our original 1st rounder on Springs.

 

I mean for someone who is critical of Geno Smith at #39 you're sure generous with giving Parcells a pass for one of the biggest blunders the team has ever had (considering Terry's draft slot).

 

Freaking Jason Taylor was written up in the local papers as a first round prospect.  He could have been ours in round 3.  But no, coach "I know better than everyone" moved from the top of round 3 to the bottom so we could instead have Dedric Ward and Chuck Clements or something.

 

The guy must have passed up on 5 Hall of Famers without cherry-picking random spots or unknowns in the draft.  Amazing how he "knew" Leon Johnson would return 2 kicks in a season once, but he didn't know that he was getting swindled out of pick value like he was repeatedly being sold bridges in Brooklyn.

 

I was a huge fan of Parcells when he was here, and will always be grateful he turned our perennial joke team around into one that no one wanted to face out of fear of getting stomped on.  But to say the instant turnaround of a whopping 8 games is because of his offseason acquisitions in 1997 is just absurd, and frankly, makes it seem like you didn't follow the team back then.  For every decent acquisition he made, he probably made 5 bad ones.  And even that doesn't tell the full story given that some of those bad ones were buttfumble-level bad because he and his massive ego wanted to show how much he knew more than the rest of the league.

 

As far as the Idzik list, I will give his guys more than 3 pre-season games. 

 

Minor? Without even looking, that was atleast 5  starters, and you can't name ONE that Idzik brought in, STILL! And we arent even getting into important contributors that helped win games in 1997. And you want to bring up Jason Taylor? LOL! Yeah because he killed Parcells and the Jets, lol. Dude, you can keep writing 20 paragraphs to make yourself look like an intelligent poster - but we are still just waiting for the list of contributors Idzik brought in this offseason.

[RSJ]

That's a reach...What was Parcells' lasting effect that made Tanny's life easier? Bradway and some of his personnel?

 

The organization was a disaster before Parcells. There were good high draft picks - but not many lunch pail guys that help win games until Parcells got to the Jets. He also rebuilt the scouting department and culture with the Jets. All of these things are lasting until this day with the Jets.

[Lizard King]

The organization was a disaster before Parcells. There were good high draft picks - but not many lunch pail guys that help win games until Parcells got to the Jets. He also rebuilt the scouting department and culture with the Jets. All of these things are lasting until this day with the Jets.

Okay that's reasonable.

[RSJ]

LET'S KILL PARCELLS AGAIN TO MAKE OURSELVES FEEL BETTER ABOUT THE PRESENT AND OH BY THE WAY THOMAS JEFFERSON OWNED SLAVES AND UH MICKEY MANTLE WAS A DRINKER SO ALL OF THEIR ACCOMPLISHMENTS REALLY NEVER HAPPENED.

 

The sad thing is that this reminds me of the Coslet years in that Jets fans expectations have gotten so low they look up to teams like the Seahawks. Reminds me of when they looked up to Sam Wych, Coslet and the Bengals. Forget about the 49ers, Cowboys or Giants of the 80's and 90's, lets try to be the 88 Bengals. lol

[Sperm Edwards]

Minor? Without even looking, that was atleast 5  starters, and you can't name ONE that Idzik brought in, STILL! And we arent even getting into important contributors that helped win games in 1997. And you want to bring up Jason Taylor? LOL! Yeah because he killed Parcells and the Jets, lol. Dude, you can keep writing 20 paragraphs to make yourself look like an intelligent poster - but we are still just waiting for the list of contributors Idzik brought in this offseason.

 

Yes, MINOR.

 

James Farrior

 

Leon Johnson

 

John Hall

 

Corwin Brown

 

Lorenzo Neal

 

Otis Smith (played for Kotite too I know)

 

Ray Lucas

 

Dedric Ward

 

 

Farrior was not instrumental in the club's 1997 success, or certainly Parcells felt that way, and that's why he got benched.  He may have been on the field, but as a rookie he was not a reason for the team's improvement.  He was as instrumental in the team's success as Lito Sheppard was instrumental in the 2009 team's success.

 

Leon Johnson was a backup, not a starter.

 

John Hall was a kicker who shanked one from inside 30 yards, only made 11 of 17 from 30-39 yards, and was 2 of 6 from 40-49.  I'd say it's a given that everyone assumes <30 yards that a kicker is expected to make every single one of them (unless it's a bad snap or something beyond his control).  The "main" range where kickers are generally judged to be reliable or unreliable, 30-49 yards, he was 13 of 23 (56%).  If that's an asset, then what is a liability? Hall was not a starter, and again was not instrumental in the team winning an additional 8 games.  He probably made it more difficult if anything.

 

Corwin Brown was a special teams player, not a starter.  We did not win a single extra game because of the presence of Corwin Brown.  Sorry.

 

Lorenzo Neal was not part of the base offense, as he only started 3 games.  We already had Richie Anderson, a future pro bowler, but Parcells wanted to bring in his own throwback guy (who he felt was so important to the team's success that he let Neal go after only 1 season).

 

Otis Smith? Big whoop.  Otis was no great CB and despite getting a bunch of picks - the guy had great hands for a corner - he could be a huge liability in coverage.

 

Ray Lucas was not a starter.  I don't know where you're getting your information from.  In 1997 he threw 4 passes.  One of them was intercepted.

 

Dedric Ward was not a starter.  He was 4th or 5th string as a rookie.  He played in 11 games, caught a whopping 18 passes on the season, and had as many fumbles (1) as he had TDs (1).

 

 

5 starters? I count two, Farrior and Otis.  

 

 

You really can't count 1 new starter Idzik brought in or are you just purposely being argumentative?

 

Dee Milliner

Sheldon Richardson

Brian Winters (he'll likely start soon enough this year) or Peterman.  But whever starts at each guard position.

Willie Colon

Chris Ivory

Tommy Bohanon

Dawan Landry

 

So I count 7 immediate starters on day 1, not including Geno Smith who will likely start games at some point (or Simms if he miraculously gets the starting job), and not counting anyone else brought in during the season or if anyone eventually works their way up to a starting job (in August I don't have the benefit of hindsight that you have by looking at the '97 season some 16 years later).  4 of them are drafted rookies.  A 5th one was acquired for another draft pick.  Two others are experienced starters that we got for next to nothing (Colon and Landry) because we weren't going to do a tremendous amount of long-term big-money investing before the draft.  I'm not counting placekicker (though whether it ends up being Folk or Cundiff, they were both free agents signed to new contracts this season).  

[Thor99]

Yes, MINOR.

James Farrior

Leon Johnson

John Hall

Corwin Brown

Lorenzo Neal

Otis Smith (played for Kotite too I know)

Ray Lucas

Dedric Ward

Farrior was not instrumental in the club's 1997 success, or certainly Parcells felt that way, and that's why he got benched. He may have been on the field, but as a rookie he was not a reason for the team's improvement. He was as instrumental in the team's success as Lito Sheppard was instrumental in the 2009 team's success.

Leon Johnson was a backup, not a starter.

John Hall was a kicker who shanked one from inside 30 yards, only made 11 of 17 from 30-39 yards, and was 2 of 6 from 40-49. I'd say it's a given that everyone assumes <30 yards that a kicker is expected to make every single one of them (unless it's a bad snap or something beyond his control). The "main" range where kickers are generally judged to be reliable or unreliable, 30-49 yards, he was 13 of 23 (56%). If that's an asset, then what is a liability? Hall was not a starter, and again was not instrumental in the team winning an additional 8 games. He probably made it more difficult if anything.

Corwin Brown was a special teams player, not a starter. We did not win a single extra game because of the presence of Corwin Brown. Sorry.

Lorenzo Neal was not part of the base offense, as he only started 3 games. We already had Richie Anderson, a future pro bowler, but Parcells wanted to bring in his own throwback guy (who he felt was so important to the team's success that he let Neal go after only 1 season).

Otis Smith? Big whoop. Otis was no great CB and despite getting a bunch of picks - the guy had great hands for a corner - he could be a huge liability in coverage.

Ray Lucas was not a starter. I don't know where you're getting your information from. In 1997 he threw 4 passes. One of them was intercepted.

Dedric Ward was not a starter. He was 4th or 5th string as a rookie. He played in 11 games, caught a whopping 18 passes on the season, and had as many fumbles (1) as he had TDs (1).

5 starters? I count two, Farrior and Otis.

You really can't count 1 new starter Idzik brought in or are you just purposely being argumentative?

Dee Milliner

Sheldon Richardson

Brian Winters (he'll likely start soon enough this year) or Peterman. But whever starts at each guard position.

Willie Colon

Chris Ivory

Tommy Bohanon

Dawan Landry

So I count 7 immediate starters on day 1, not including Geno Smith who will likely start games at some point (or Simms if he miraculously gets the starting job), and not counting anyone else brought in during the season or if anyone eventually works their way up to a starting job (in August I don't have the benefit of hindsight that you have by looking at the '97 season some 16 years later). 4 of them are drafted rookies. A 5th one was acquired for another draft pick. Two others are experienced starters that we got for next to nothing (Colon and Landry) because we weren't going to do a tremendous amount of long-term big-money investing before the draft. I'm not counting placekicker (though whether it ends up being Folk or Cundiff, they were both free agents signed to new contracts this season).

Don't forget Winslow.

[Sperm Edwards]

Don't forget Winslow.

 

8 starters.  Sorry.

[Bleedin Green]

8 starters.  Sorry.

 

Yeah, but they haven't started any regular season games for the 2013 Jets yet.  So HA, in your face!

[Sperm Edwards]

From 1996 to 1997:

 

10 of 11 starting (or "key") offensive players were already on the team (O'Donnell, Murrell, Keyshawn, Graham, Brady, Baxter/Chrebet, Jumbo, Duffy, O'Dwyer, Williams)

 

6 of 11 on defense (Douglas, Lewis, Jones, Glenn, Green, Henderson)

 

New starters: Paleili, Lyle, Logan, Gordon/Pepper (8 starts apiece), Farrior, Otis.

 

The 6 new starters he brought in weren't exactly the "Who's Who" of all-pro votes in 1997 (I'm counting Gordon & Pepper as one person like a jerk).  Tuna was so enamored with the play of these 6 "key" players, that some think were responsible for an 8-game turnaround, that it was his goal in 1998 to replace/bench 4 of these 6 new faces.

 

Most of the big contracts Tuna inherited (O'Donnell, Mo, Jones, Jumbo, Williams, Keyshawn, Glenn, Graham) were for USABLE players at key positions. 

 

By contrast, Idzik (or anyone taking the Jets GM job) inherited approx $50M of $120M in cap space being eaten up by 4 players: Mark Sanchez ($13M), David Harris ($13M), Santonio Holmes ($9M), and must-be-traded Darrelle Revis ($13M).  Throw in another $8M in dead cap space on built-in must-cuts to eat up still more: Pace $3M, Pouha $2.3M, Tebow, $1.5M, Scott $1.5M.  You're talking about some $60M already.

 

Effectively, for approximately half their cap space, on the field (or not on the field) for that cap space we will be watching: Sanchez, Harris, Holmes.  

 

Tuna certainly didn't take over the '85 Bears, but he didn't have nearly the mess on his hands that the Jets had to start the season in March/April.  Parcells brought back 10 starters on offense and 6 starters on defense from the 1996 team (i.e. the overwhelming core of the 1997 team was untouched from the year prior).  Actually he brought back more than that, but others were coaching decisions on who to start and bench (Hamilton, Mickens, etc.).

 

He didn't bring in any players so great that they immediately put us over the hump.  But he was a good coach and he had good coaches working underneath him and they replaced bad ones.  That made FAR more of an impact than bringing in Ernie Logan and Otis Smith did.  As did making Lewis & Jones lose 20 lbs of blubber apiece.

[RSJ]

Yes, MINOR.

 

James Farrior

 

Leon Johnson

 

John Hall

 

Corwin Brown

 

Lorenzo Neal

 

Otis Smith (played for Kotite too I know)

 

Ray Lucas

 

Dedric Ward

 

 

Farrior was not instrumental in the club's 1997 success, or certainly Parcells felt that way, and that's why he got benched.  He may have been on the field, but as a rookie he was not a reason for the team's improvement.  He was as instrumental in the team's success as Lito Sheppard was instrumental in the 2009 team's success.

 

Leon Johnson was a backup, not a starter.

 

John Hall was a kicker who shanked one from inside 30 yards, only made 11 of 17 from 30-39 yards, and was 2 of 6 from 40-49.  I'd say it's a given that everyone assumes <30 yards that a kicker is expected to make every single one of them (unless it's a bad snap or something beyond his control).  The "main" range where kickers are generally judged to be reliable or unreliable, 30-49 yards, he was 13 of 23 (56%).  If that's an asset, then what is a liability? Hall was not a starter, and again was not instrumental in the team winning an additional 8 games.  He probably made it more difficult if anything.

 

Corwin Brown was a special teams player, not a starter.  We did not win a single extra game because of the presence of Corwin Brown.  Sorry.

 

Lorenzo Neal was not part of the base offense, as he only started 3 games.  We already had Richie Anderson, a future pro bowler, but Parcells wanted to bring in his own throwback guy (who he felt was so important to the team's success that he let Neal go after only 1 season).

 

Otis Smith? Big whoop.  Otis was no great CB and despite getting a bunch of picks - the guy had great hands for a corner - he could be a huge liability in coverage.

 

Ray Lucas was not a starter.  I don't know where you're getting your information from.  In 1997 he threw 4 passes.  One of them was intercepted.

 

Dedric Ward was not a starter.  He was 4th or 5th string as a rookie.  He played in 11 games, caught a whopping 18 passes on the season, and had as many fumbles (1) as he had TDs (1).

 

 

5 starters? I count two, Farrior and Otis.  

 

 

You really can't count 1 new starter Idzik brought in or are you just purposely being argumentative?

 

Dee Milliner

Sheldon Richardson

Brian Winters (he'll likely start soon enough this year) or Peterman.  But whever starts at each guard position.

Willie Colon

Chris Ivory

Tommy Bohanon

Dawan Landry

 

So I count 7 immediate starters on day 1, not including Geno Smith who will likely start games at some point (or Simms if he miraculously gets the starting job), and not counting anyone else brought in during the season or if anyone eventually works their way up to a starting job (in August I don't have the benefit of hindsight that you have by looking at the '97 season some 16 years later).  4 of them are drafted rookies.  A 5th one was acquired for another draft pick.  Two others are experienced starters that we got for next to nothing (Colon and Landry) because we weren't going to do a tremendous amount of long-term big-money investing before the draft.  I'm not counting placekicker (though whether it ends up being Folk or Cundiff, they were both free agents signed to new contracts this season).  

 

We will see at the end of the season for a lot of these guys. Powell looks better then Ivory and will most likely start over him, Winters wont beat out Vlad, Walls or Wilson may start over Milliner, Milliner has looked horrible and will probably cancel out Farrior. Bohanan looks ok, Richardson was for Revis, not sure we can count that since Parcells didnt have 2 first rounders. Colon looks good, and Landry. So I count two starters. BTW, 2, probably soon to be 3 of Idzik's biggest signings won't play a down for the Jets this season.

 

Now lets look at Parcells list of starters, legit starters btw.

 

John Hall - K

Leon Johnson - KR

Jason Fergeson - NT

Pepper Johnson - MLB/Dwayne Gordan ILB - started 8 games a piece

Otis Smith - CB

Jerome Henderson - FS

Rick Lyle - DE

Ernie Logan - DE

 

Started less then 8 games - but contributed to Jets victories in 1997.

Ray Lucas

Corwin Brown 2 blocked kicks for TD's

Lorenzo Neal (mostly because we opened in 3 wide in Erharts offense)

Kerry Jenkins

Dedric Ward

James Farrior

 

8 starters of 8 games or more and 6 guys that contributed to victories - but had less then 8 starts. Lets revisit Idzik's list after the season to see if he can match it. I come up with 2, maybe 3 if Ivory stays healthy and learns how to run,. Btw, will Idzik go 9-7?