does sammy watkins deserve a julio jones type trade?

[slats]

Yep.  That's my memory as well. Never saw that happen before.  Traded away two #1s and a #4 to move up to position #4 to get a guy who might not have even been there.  Quite easily could have ended up with Rogers who was twice the bust Robertson was.  I mean, with the old rookie salary structure how in the hell could someone be such a blockhead? Other rumor flying around at the time was that NE was interested in trading up a little to get Robertson; apparently it was nonsense and Bradway bit.

IIRC, they traded the two #1's the night before the draft, and the fourth rounder was contingent on the player they wanted being there. Everyone else in the league sets up deals to be completed on draft day if the draft falls the way they hope, but not our man Bradway. That was mind-boggling.

[bitonti]

Aside from his alma mater, what do you dislike about Marquise Lee?

 

Not much. but it's a big motzah ball. I just can't trust anyone from USC playing for the Jets. There's something about how entitled those prospects are and how sunny in Cali and how hard it is to play in NY that's just a bad mix. They did go down this road once before remember Keyshawn? 

 

And the way Idzik is signing locals and drafting SEC guys in rd 1 I don't think the JETS want to go back to that well either. 

[slats]

Not much. but it's a big motzah ball. I just can't trust anyone from USC playing for the Jets. There's something about how entitled those prospects are and how sunny in Cali and how hard it is to play in NY that's just a bad mix. They did go down this road once before remember Keyshawn? 

 

And the way Idzik is signing locals and drafting SEC guys in rd 1 I don't think the JETS want to go back to that well either.

Yeah, he accumulated 4100 yards and 31 TDs in four years for the Jets before they traded him for two first round picks. I guess somehow that didn't work out... ?

[Kleckineau]

Kleckineau, on 10 Feb 2014 - 6:11 PM, said:

I'll wait and see.

Didnt you drop a "bad move" label on it in this thread?

I do consider moving up to take Watkins a very bad idea. 

I used Tavon Austin as an example.

I think his performance was underwhelming.

Another poster disagreed with that saying Austin a great year despite low yardage and will prove to be a good pick this year.

When I said I'll wait and see it was regarding Austin not Watkins.

[bitonti]

Yeah, he accumulated 4100 yards and 31 TDs in four years for the Jets before they traded him for two first round picks. I guess somehow that didn't work out... ?

 

if you take a guy at 1 overall and he doesn't make it to the second contract would you call that a success? It was mixed. the fact is they had to trade him because he didn't fit (or didn't get the damn ball enough).

 

The undrafted scrappy Chrebet was a better WR pickup that year. At least in terms of team/player match. 

[slats]

if you take a guy at 1 overall and he doesn't make it to the second contract would you call that a success? It was mixed. the fact is they had to trade him because he didn't fit (or didn't get the damn ball enough).

 

The undrafted scrappy Chrebet was a better WR pickup that year. At least in terms of team/player match.

4100 yards and 31 TDs in four years before he's traded for two first round picks? I'd call that an unqualified success.

[#27TheDominator]

 

Kleckineau, on 10 Feb 2014 - 6:11 PM, said:

I do consider moving up to take Watkins a very bad idea. 

I used Tavon Austin as an example.

I think his performance was underwhelming.

Another poster disagreed with that saying Austin a great year despite low yardage and will prove to be a good pick this year.

When I said I'll wait and see it was regarding Austin not Watkins.

 

 

I did not say he had a great year.  I said it was as expected. I think all the people here clamoring for wideouts are going to be severely disappointed with the typical production of a non-bust first round WR.

 

if you take a guy at 1 overall and he doesn't make it to the second contract would you call that a success? It was mixed. the fact is they had to trade him because he didn't fit (or didn't get the damn ball enough).

 

The undrafted scrappy Chrebet was a better WR pickup that year. At least in terms of team/player match. 

 

Getting traded for two #1s is not "not making it to your second contract."  It is actually better. It was probably the best draft move the Tuna ever made. 

[bitonti]

4100 yards and 31 TDs in four years before he's traded for two first round picks? I'd call that an unqualified success.

 

Getting traded for two #1s is not "not making it to your second contract."  It is actually better. It was probably the best draft move the Tuna ever made. 

 

There was a reason they traded him. He wanted more money and was happy to shoot his way out of town. This is the dictionary definition of "not a fit" no matter what the production. 

 

there are shades of Revis in the Keyshawn story. In fact trading Keyshawn was Woody's first move as owner.

[slats]

There was a reason they traded him. He wanted more money and was happy to shoot his way out of town. This is the dictionary definition of "not a fit" no matter what the production. 

 

there are shades of Revis in the Keyshawn story. In fact trading Keyshawn was Woody's first move as owner.

Not that I agree with a word of this, but somehow this is a justification for never drafting a player out of USC?

I remember when Anquan Boldin came out, and the conventional wisdom at the time was not to take Florida WRs. That turned out to be pretty brilliant. Players need to be looked at as individuals, not as simply a product of their school.

[#27TheDominator]

There was a reason they traded him. He wanted more money and was happy to shoot his way out of town. This is the dictionary definition of "not a fit" no matter what the production. 

 

there are shades of Revis in the Keyshawn story. In fact trading Keyshawn was Woody's first move as owner.

 

Not a fit, but still the best pick. 

 

Not that I agree with a word of this, but somehow this is a justification for never drafting a player out of USC?

I remember when Anquan Boldin came out, and the conventional wisdom at the time was not to take Florida WRs. That turned out to be pretty brilliant. Players need to be looked at as individuals, not as simply a product of their school.

 

Florida State.  Don't let JiF try to take credit for that one. 

[bitonti]

Not that I agree with a word of this, but somehow this is a justification for never drafting a player out of USC?

I remember when Anquan Boldin came out, and the conventional wisdom at the time was not to take Florida WRs. That turned out to be pretty brilliant. Players need to be looked at as individuals, not as simply a product of their school.

 

to clarify I don't believe "never draft a player out of USC" i do believe the USC skills and the NY market are a bad mix. don't have a problem with the USC bigs like Tyron Smith or Matt Kalil. 

 

Its just a bad fit between player personality and locale. I mean look at the recent names: Sanchez, McKnight are the notable ones. Both were worshiped out west. Neither had seen snow. other guys like Konrad Rueland and Patrick Turner weren't drafted by NY but still fairly worthless as Jets.  the list of USC WR is especially bad: 

2013 Robert Woods

2011 Ronald Johnson, David Ausberry

2010 Damian Williams

2009 Patrick Turner

2007 Dwayne Jarrett, Steve Smith (the other) 

2005 Mike WIlliams

2004 Keary Colbert

2003 Kareem Kelly

2000 R Jay Soward, Windrell Hayes (another failed USC WR Jets draftee) 

 

 

basically you have to go back to Keyshawn to find the last decent USC WR that's not good legacy. I am aware that legacies are not the be all and end all (ALabama CBs for example were really bad before Dee) but this one seems especially toxic. 

[joewillie78]

Not that I agree with a word of this, but somehow this is a justification for never drafting a player out of USC?

I remember when Anquan Boldin came out, and the conventional wisdom at the time was not to take Florida WRs. That turned out to be pretty brilliant. Players need to be looked at as individuals, not as simply a product of their school.

USC Quarterbacks are a complete toss:

Leinert

Sanchez

Marinovich

Peete

Haden

Cassell

Johnson

Barkley

 

Florida Qbs are a complete toss

Spurrier

Grossman

Tebow

etal.

 

Only a desperate franchise would TRADE up to the top 5 to take a QB from these 2 schools. Can you guess the name of that franchise?

[#27TheDominator]

to clarify I don't believe "never draft a player out of USC" i do believe the USC skills and the NY market are a bad mix. don't have a problem with the USC bigs like Tyron Smith or Matt Kalil. 

 

Its just a bad fit between player personality and locale. I mean look at the recent names: Sanchez, McKnight are the notable ones. Both were worshiped out west. Neither had seen snow. other guys like Konrad Rueland and Patrick Turner weren't drafted by NY but still fairly worthless as Jets.  the list of USC WR is especially bad: 

2013 Robert Woods

2011 Ronald Johnson, David Ausberry

2010 Damian Williams

2009 Patrick Turner

2007 Dwayne Jarrett, Steve Smith (the other) 

2005 Mike WIlliams

2004 Keary Colbert

2003 Kareem Kelly

2000 R Jay Soward, Windrell Hayes (another failed USC WR Jets draftee) 

 

 

basically you have to go back to Keyshawn to find the last decent USC WR that's not good legacy. I am aware that legacies are not the be all and end all (ALabama CBs for example were really bad before Dee) but this one seems especially toxic. 

 

 

Reuland went to HS with Sanchez, but he went to Stanford.  Are we supposed to avoid Stanford too?  Reuland was also undrafted.  For what he was we got pretty decent use out of him.  I'm sure Ertz and Fleener would have been horrible here. 

[bitonti]

Reuland went to HS with Sanchez, but he went to Stanford.  Are we supposed to avoid Stanford too?  Reuland was also undrafted.  For what he was we got pretty decent use out of him.  I'm sure Ertz and Fleener would have been horrible here. 

 

ok fine Konrad Rueland went to stanford. When people say he played with Sanchez I thought they meant USC. Fair enough. .. btw nitpicking the 1 fact i got wrong doesn't prove that USC WR are worth a first round pick. 

[joewillie78]

Reuland went to HS with Sanchez, but he went to Stanford.  Are we supposed to avoid Stanford too?  Reuland was also undrafted.  For what he was we got pretty decent use out of him.  I'm sure Ertz and Fleener would have been horrible here. 

Look, no matter what you think, Bits evidence of WR from USC failing is pretty compelling. For every 1 or 2 that succeed, you have about 10 that are complete garbage. I was 100% sold on Lee (and still think he will be fine in the NFL), but because of Bits undeniable evidence of USC WR failures, I am actually hoping the JETS look elsewhere, like Beckham, Evans, Benjamin, Matthews etc.

[BroadwayJoe12]

to clarify I don't believe "never draft a player out of USC" i do believe the USC skills and the NY market are a bad mix. don't have a problem with the USC bigs like Tyron Smith or Matt Kalil. 

 

Its just a bad fit between player personality and locale. I mean look at the recent names: Sanchez, McKnight are the notable ones. Both were worshiped out west. Neither had seen snow. other guys like Konrad Rueland and Patrick Turner weren't drafted by NY but still fairly worthless as Jets.  the list of USC WR is especially bad: 

2013 Robert Woods

2011 Ronald Johnson, David Ausberry

2010 Damian Williams

2009 Patrick Turner

2007 Dwayne Jarrett, Steve Smith (the other) 

2005 Mike WIlliams

2004 Keary Colbert

2003 Kareem Kelly

2000 R Jay Soward, Windrell Hayes (another failed USC WR Jets draftee) 

 

 

basically you have to go back to Keyshawn to find the last decent USC WR that's not good legacy. I am aware that legacies are not the be all and end all (ALabama CBs for example were really bad before Dee) but this one seems especially toxic. 

 

 

We've gone over this. How do you base the future potential of Marqise Lee off of former WRs that played with different QBs, Oline, TEs and against competition that hasn't been in college football for years? There's quite literally no common factor in that evaluation.

 

 Completely disregarding the style of play or where they are drafted, the only player you could make a case for comparison is Robert Woods and as a 2nd rounder, playing with Buffalo's QB carousel, he put up admirable numbers. Considering Lee was head and shoulders above Woods at USC, it would not be a stretch to think that Lee would perform better than Woods.  Myself, I choose to evaluate players based on their own skills, not what one of their teammates did. This is such a flawed argument it's ridiculous.  Besides superstition, what is one logical argument about not drafting Lee based on his USC ties?  

[#27TheDominator]

Look, no matter what you think, Bits evidence of WR from USC failing is pretty compelling. For every 1 or 2 that succeed, you have about 10 that are complete garbage. I was 100% sold on Lee (and still think he will be fine in the NFL), but because of Bits undeniable evidence of USC WR failures, I am actually hoping the JETS look elsewhere, like Beckham, Evans, Benjamin, Matthews etc.

 

Did any of them run well?  You could just as easily say that WRs that do not run well often bust.  Jarrett was a slug.  Williams was a slow "speed" receiver. Mike Wiliams?  Not fast. Johnson?  Small guy, not a burner. Steve Smith is the only one that I remember running well and he was a good player.  His problem stemmed from constant injuries.  Come back to me when Lee runs a 4.54.  If he runs 4.38 I don't care what school he went to. 

[Matt39]

Did any of them run well?  You could just as easily say that WRs that do not run well often bust.  Jarrett was a slug.  Williams was a slow "speed" receiver. Mike Wiliams?  Not fast. Johnson?  Small guy, not a burner. Steve Smith is the only one that I remember running well and he was a good player.  His problem stemmed from constant injuries.  Come back to me when Lee runs a 4.54.  If he runs 4.38 I don't care what school he went to. 

 

People liked Jarrett but Smith made all of the big catches for those USC teams...if he had stayed healthy he'd be a productive/really good slot guy in the league for 10 years.

[joewillie78]

Did any of them run well?  You could just as easily say that WRs that do not run well often bust.  Jarrett was a slug.  Williams was a slow "speed" receiver. Mike Wiliams?  Not fast. Johnson?  Small guy, not a burner. Steve Smith is the only one that I remember running well and he was a good player.  His problem stemmed from constant injuries.  Come back to me when Lee runs a 4.54.  If he runs 4.38 I don't care what school he went to. 

How about upper 4.4's like say 4.47, then what? I agree, IF he runs SUB 4.4, then sure, but if he is mid to upper 4.4's, then he's just another USC receiver waiting to go bust, right?

[joewillie78]

We've gone over this. How do you base the future potential of Marqise Lee off of former WRs that played with different QBs, Oline, TEs and against competition that hasn't been in college football for years? There's quite literally no common factor in that evaluation.

 

 Completely disregarding the style of play or where they are drafted, the only player you could make a case for comparison is Robert Woods and as a 2nd rounder, playing with Buffalo's QB carousel, he put up admirable numbers. Considering Lee was head and shoulders above Woods at USC, it would not be a stretch to think that Lee would perform better than Woods.  Myself, I choose to evaluate players based on their own skills, not what one of their teammates did. This is such a flawed argument it's ridiculous.  Besides superstition, what is one logical argument about not drafting Lee based on his USC ties?  

Do these same Mystical "superstitions" apply to their woeful history of QB's also? Or should we also ignore all of those incredibly bad QB's from this school, and look to draft the next "great" one from USC? Hmmm.....

[bitonti]

We've gone over this. How do you base the future potential of Marqise Lee off of former WRs that played with different QBs, Oline, TEs and against competition that hasn't been in college football for years? There's quite literally no common factor in that evaluation.

 

  Besides superstition, what is one logical argument about not drafting Lee based on his USC ties?  

 

the common factor is that all were USC skill recruits and being a USC recruit in the state of CA is not unlike being a Texas recruit in the state of Texas. They tend to attract physically superior prospects who have had everything come easy to them. These guys have their choice of school. They play their football in the sunshine. Their WR usually are big and would be moved to TE at a different school. (best case) they are the Keyshawn Johnsons of the world. Which is fine.  I just don't think this team needs that. I'm with joewillie if this guy breaks 4.4 (or comes close) we can certainly revisit this conversation. I don't think he's going to be freaky enough for Idzik. Remember the Jets had 2 first round picks last year and both were rare physical freaks. If we are predicting, an Odell Beckham Jr pick makes more sense than a Marqise Lee pick. The naysayers will say we don't have enough evidence to assign any trend to Idzik but it's going to be his 3rd 1st round pick and if the first two are any sign, this guy better be a rare athlete. 

[#27TheDominator]

This is why they run.  At the combine fast is fast, quick is quick and strong is strong.  We don't have to deal with bullsh*t that a guy was excelled because he was on team steamroller.  They are all on even footing. The idea that a school makes that big of a difference particularly for such a physical position is a bit much.  This board wants to draft Colt Lyerla but put a do not touch on a USC WR?  I bet a higer percentage of heroine users bust than USC WRs.  I would have drafted Aaron Rodgers,  but Kyle Boller.  It's silly. 

[joewillie78]

This is why they run.  At the combine fast is fast, quick is quick and strong is strong.  We don't have to deal with bullsh*t that a guy was excelled because he was on team steamroller.  They are all on even footing. The idea that a school makes that big of a difference particularly for such a physical position is a bit much.  This board wants to draft Colt Lyerla but put a do not touch on a USC WR?  I bet a higer percentage of heroine users bust than USC WRs.  I would have drafted Aaron Rodgers,  but Kyle Boller.  It's silly. 

The Kyle Boller/Aaron Rodgers reference has no place in this conversation as that is just 1 bust. The plethora of busts at USC at the WR and QB position is just undeniable and remarkable. I am even amazed at the list provided by Bit. Again, and I agree with Bit, LEE better run a 4.4 or below, or I would be running to Beckham or Evans etc.

[#27TheDominator]

The Kyle Boller/Aaron Rodgers reference has no place in this conversation as that is just 1 bust. The plethora of busts at USC at the WR and QB position is just undeniable and remarkable. I am even amazed at the list provided by Bit. Again, and I agree with Bit, LEE better run a 4.4 or below, or I would be running to Beckham or Evans etc.

 

Dwayne Jarret was not a bust.  He was not a very good player and he was a slug.  Picking players by school is moronic.  Judge the player.  

[BroadwayJoe12]

the common factor is that all were USC skill recruits and being a USC recruit in the state of CA is not unlike being a Texas recruit in the state of Texas. They tend to attract physically superior prospects who have had everything come easy to them. These guys have their choice of school. They play their football in the sunshine. Their WR usually are big and would be moved to TE at a different school. (best case) they are the Keyshawn Johnsons of the world. Which is fine.  I just don't think this team needs that. I'm with joewillie if this guy breaks 4.4 (or comes close) we can certainly revisit this conversation. I don't think he's going to be freaky enough for Idzik. Remember the Jets had 2 first round picks last year and both were rare physical freaks. If we are predicting, an Odell Beckham Jr pick makes more sense than a Marqise Lee pick. The naysayers will say we don't have enough evidence to assign any trend to Idzik but it's going to be his 3rd 1st round pick and if the first two are any sign, this guy better be a rare athlete. 

 

 

I disagree on judging a player on the school he goes to, but we're not going to change each others mind on it. Marqise is pretty freakish though: he ran a 10.74 100 meters, not too far off from Sammy, and long-jumped 25-1 a year ago at USC. He's going to run in the low 4.4s and is as explosive as you're gonna find. I think you're selling him short just how good of an athlete he really is.

[BroadwayJoe12]

Do these same Mystical "superstitions" apply to their woeful history of QB's also? Or should we also ignore all of those incredibly bad QB's from this school, and look to draft the next "great" one from USC? Hmmm.....

 

Yes, it does.A good number of QBs from USC have failed, but you cannot bring up names like John David Booty, Matt Barkley and a handful of the others you mention in the conversation, because they were drafted in the 5th round or lower. The league realized they were not good, which is why there were drafted in the low or middle rounds. By this logic, no one should draft Tennessee QBs because after Manning, Ainge, Clausen, Crompton, Bray and Simms were all failures in the NFL.  It's an illogical argument. 

[#27TheDominator]

Bridgewater would go first over all, but Brian Brohm, Matt Simms, Adam Froman (the Sausage King of Chicago?), Stefan LeFors and Dave Rangone. 

[joewillie78]

Yes, it does.A good number of QBs from USC have failed, but you cannot bring up names like John David Booty, Matt Barkley and a handful of the others you mention in the conversation, because they were drafted in the 5th round or lower. The league realized they were not good, which is why there were drafted in the low or middle rounds. By this logic, no one should draft Tennessee QBs because after Manning, Ainge, Clausen, Crompton, Bray and Simms were all failures in the NFL.  It's an illogical argument. 

Would you want to be the GM that tells his owner that our next franchise QB, and the guy that we are going to trust our franchise with for the next 10-12 years, and possibly trade up to get is the QB now playing for USC?

 

The last GM to do that is now selling Trading cards for some sports memorabilia company. Good luck, unless the Owners name is Jones, Snyder, or Johnson.

[Jetsfan80]

Would you want to be the GM that tells his owner that our next franchise QB, and the guy that we are going to trust our franchise with for the next 10-12 years, and possibly trade up to get is the QB now playing for USC?

 

The last GM to do that is now selling Trading cards for some sports memorabilia company. Good luck, unless the Owners name is Jones, Snyder, or Johnson.

 

Not every USC QB was taken in the early rounds.  If a kid from there looks good on film and you can get him with a flyer pick in the 5th, why not?

[BroadwayJoe12]

How about upper 4.4's like say 4.47, then what? I agree, IF he runs SUB 4.4, then sure, but if he is mid to upper 4.4's, then he's just another USC receiver waiting to go bust, right?

 

 

I'm not sure people realize just how fast running a sub 4.5 is, it's more than enough speed. All you need to do is watch his games, did you ever see him get caught from behind  or look like he needed more speed? Not once.  I'm telling you guys, speed and athleticism is literally the absolute last thing you need to worry about Marqise Lee's game. 

[BroadwayJoe12]

Would you want to be the GM that tells his owner that our next franchise QB, and the guy that we are going to trust our franchise with for the next 10-12 years, and possibly trade up to get is the QB now playing for USC?

 

The last GM to do that is now selling Trading cards for some sports memorabilia company. Good luck, unless the Owners name is Jones, Snyder, or Johnson.

 

No, Tanny lost his job because of the contract extension he gave to Mark, not for drafting him.  Would you want to tell your owner that the guy you want to give the franchise to is from the same university that produced Jerrod Johnson, Dustin Long, Stephen McGee and Reggie McNeal? That the only positive to come out of that school's talent pool in the last two decades is Ryan Tannenhill?  See how weak this argument is?

[#27TheDominator]

I'm not sure people realize just how fast running a sub 4.5 is, it's more than enough speed. All you need to do is watch his games, did you ever see him get caught from behind  or look like he needed more speed? Not once.  I'm telling you guys, speed and athleticism is literally the absolute last thing you need to worry about Marqise Lee's game. 

 

IMO timed speed matters plenty in these cases.  I'm sure the guy has it, but there are tons of guys playing in college that never get caught from behind, but are not fast enough in the NFL.  The difference in speed (I don't discount the cone drills etc) can be the difference between DeSean Jackson and Peter Warrick. 

[bitonti]

   I'm telling you guys, speed and athleticism is literally the absolute last thing you need to worry about Marqise Lee's game. 

 

didn't he have a knee injury? is that the thing to worry about? If he breaks 4.5 then yes we can talk about it. But it's not really Idzik's MO to take a pretty good athlete in rd 1 with more than enough speed. He wants the rare athlete with freak speed. 

[BroadwayJoe12]

IMO timed speed matters plenty in these cases.  I'm sure the guy has it, but there are tons of guys playing in college that never get caught from behind, but are not fast enough in the NFL.  The difference in speed (I don't discount the cone drills etc) can be the difference between DeSean Jackson and Peter Warrick. 

 

I agree, I was merely mentioning it to reaffirm how fast he is.  He already timed a very fast 100 meters and an incredibly explosive 25-1 long jump (25-5 wind-aided), so I have zero doubts he'll time well. 

[bitonti]

 Would you want to tell your owner that the guy you want to give the franchise to is from the same university that produced Jerrod Johnson, Dustin Long, Stephen McGee and Reggie McNeal? That the only positive to come out of that school's talent pool in the last two decades is Ryan Tannenhill?  See how weak this argument is?

Tannehill is a name. If he wasn't in the pool you are right the ghost of Reggie mcNeal would haunt Manziel. The other way to look at it is Tannehill is a mostly serviceable NFL QB if Manziel is better than Tannehill that's only 10 drafts slots between where Tannehill was drafted and the top overall pick.